I object to Moyers’ assertion… “The radical religious right has succeeded in taking over one of America
Posted by whattheheck on Sep 24, 2005 at 11:07 AM
” What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans, and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty and democracy? ” - Mahatma Ghandi
Posted by David in Canada on Sep 24, 2005 at 12:31 PM
Hi Dave,
Posted by whattheheck on Sep 25, 2005 at 9:09 AM
Hi whattheheck
You wrote :
“There are things worth dying for and even things worth killing for.”
My response would be, if I can quote Ghandi again :
“Nonviolence is the first article of my creed. It is also the last article of my creed”
The thing worth dying for (for me) is : not killing.
When liberty is delivered and enforced by violence hasn’t liberty taken the first steps to totalitarianism?
Bill Moyers wrote :
” Bullies-political bullies, economic bullies and religious bullies-cannot be appeased; they have to be opposed with a stubbornness to match their own. ”
And he is right. Evil men who would manipulate and exploit people’s beliefs into violence and hatred against “the others” should be opposed. But that opposition should not be more violence and hatred.
” An eye for an eye and the whole world goes blind ” Mahatma Ghandi
or
” Blessed are the peacemakers: for they will be called sons of God ” Jesus Christ (Matthew 5:9)
“
Posted by David in Canada on Sep 25, 2005 at 12:28 PM
Rabbit is going to say his opinion here and it is given in deference to no-one.
Rabbit comes from a Mormon Family. Mum and Dad, Sister and her family, they are all totally committed to their faith. Rabbit was at one time a member and is an Elder, though ex-communicate. Rabbit lives not far from his Mormon Family. Rabbit knows something about fundamentalist Christians.
They are if anything as insane and irrational and bloodthirsty as the most fundamentalist Muslim or Jew. Despite being Rabbit’s mother and Sister they can see nothing past their own long term and complete blindness to all reality. They are always right, they know it and you either do to or you are a “Pitiful” poor lost soul, or an evil blood soaked satanist.
They answer words of love and peace and tolerance with spitting venom and curses and all manner of incredible presumptions. These people are known to and Rabbit loves them. They are living farcical lives, where everything they describe about Satan and Illuminati and all manner of extreme visions is as true only as they are making it. Worst and it is this which chills Rabbit to the soul, they are the closest thing to the wicked and decieved ones who are aligned with THE GREAT WHORE OF BABYLON, as could be imagined. This is their image, their prophesy and they can’t see their place in it. Tragic.
The horror for Rabbit who is a contented Agnostic and deeply spiritual, loving person, is that these loved ones are the very thing they are describing as “lost”.
God help us all because these crazies believe that they are about to be carried away from the World and all it’s troubles and the quicker they set fire to the whole place the quicker they will get their Rapture.
They are totally non-compos mentos (Sorry Latin students). They have completely substituted Beliefs for facts and have practised long and hard at believing in things which have not a shred of evidence to support them.They call this faith.
....For merely questioning how does a Loving God allow them to call for the blood of Muslims and support illegal unjust wars, Rabbit is said to lack faith.
For pointing out that Jesus Christ did not carry a Machine Gun, Rabbit was assured that he should not speak Jesus Christs name, for he is a sinful Rabbit who knows nothing of “The Lord” and Rabbit should instead get down on his knees and pray for help. Hmmm.
When Rabbit tried to point out that George Bush was not a Christian just because he said he was and that his actions had never led one to expect he might even be a decent human at all, Rabbit was subjected to insane gibbering, curses and threats. The sister almsot went into a fit, yelling about murder, baby rapists (this was about victims of Katrina) and evil hateful Muslims who all had to be killed or nobody could ever live in peace, becaue they had no God, they had a false God.
Also Rabbit was told he knew nothing about how much tolerance and Love the sister had for Muslims in general, it was just the Fundamentalists who had turned their faith into a religion of hate.
There was more and strange as it all was the hideous face, foaming mouth and rolling eyes were even more strange. This is Rabbit’s little Sister. Rabbit shocked, still is.
That is some but a good sample of it.
Now how the hell does anybody reckon with that?
Trolls and Shills are bad, but oh boy wait till you’re up against the God Squad.
There is one sniffing around this site by the way, having lost his usual hunting grounds at ADE, he may pop up and give us a full blown demo if we are lucky..
Rabbit whistles,................................. will he come?
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 25, 2005 at 8:33 PM
Whattheneck Rabbit knows too there are things worth killing for and worth dyiong for, but you are in my territory if we start them. These things have been defined by Rabbit as Ideals and they are listed as Love (Family), Shelter, Food and a Future for our children.
Every living creature has the same ideals and they are the only things worth killing for or risk being killed for. Yet many people support actions and even perform actions which threaten their own ideals in a very real and even immediate sense. The only way this could happen is if those people had been tricked into believing they were doing something which was for other than it’s real purposes.
Christians can be tricked into believing their God wants them to do anything. So can any population that does not recognise its own basic ideals but instead allows Governments and Churches to define and guard their ideals.
First identify those absolute ideals, what will you die for. No slogans! Nobody would die for a country or a flag or an idea, people die in wars thinking they are helping protect those they love. The politicians say they dies for their country. Those who survive may kid themselevs those others died for their country. Bullshit. They died believing they were defending those ideals of Rabbit’s or they died dissillusioned realising the truth.
Since nobody can make their own ideals safer by threatening others, who must by definition strike back, no war is ever justified unless it is a defensive war.
Any war which seems inevitable is not. If it seems os then somewhere somebody is lying, because it goes against the nature of life.
Anybody who chooses to keep breathing at birth, who gets ouit of the way because they might get hit by a bus or bomb chose life, so why would you ever believe anyvbody out there worships death? Those few who do soon take themselves out of the equation, the rest think they are chasing their ideals because they are so deluded.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 25, 2005 at 8:49 PM
Rabbit. Isn’t he sweet? He’s quite grown on me.
Are you a fan of Watership Down… which rabbit are you??
Posted by Liz on Sep 26, 2005 at 3:16 AM
No slogans! Nobody would die for a country or a flag or an idea, people die in wars thinking they are helping protect those they love. The politicians say they dies for their country. Those who survive may kid themselevs those others died for their country. Bullshit. They died believing they were defending those ideals of Rabbit
Posted by Liz on Sep 26, 2005 at 3:28 AM
Hi Liz
Combination Rabbit. Soul is Rabbit Year (Chinese astrology). Inspiration is a Dwarf Black Rex, Rabbit looks most like Christopher Robins Rabbit, bit Grey not so cute as the Rex.
..............Rabbit likes Liz too, someone who stops to smell the roses, Rabbit and Missus Rabbit went for a bike ride around the Swan River this afternoon. Could smell the honeysuckle and other wildflowers along one path at one point, so sweet…........................^^.................
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 26, 2005 at 3:36 AM
Oh gosh! You sound like a very nice Rabbit and I hope you and your doe (I always liked the name Hyzenthlay - if I’ve got it right! out of the Richard Adams masterpiece….)
have a very nice walk and lots of kittens. (this being the correct technical term.)
Posted by Liz on Sep 26, 2005 at 3:38 AM
Can see the scene not sure if Rabbit seen Angela’s ashes though. Like when I saw “Once we were wariors”, Rabbit saw the whole Maori thing and so familiar.
Such ideas are bound to resonate, Rabbit has seen and read much and is only a simple Rabbit so has not made up anything new yet. Just find old things lying around, sometimes they just need a bit of polish or a better setting and something old and even ancient can seem like a new idea.
People dig new ideas. They think if they can get enough ideas then they will be able to get the best. That is the sort of thinking which separates men and women shoppers as a rule. (In OZ) Rabbit thinks maybe the problem is too many ideas. Maybe we can find a simple one we can all agree on. Well most all, can’t do anything for the “FANATICS”. So we may have to cut our losses as a race.
Lose about 20% of them and so long as it was the 20% who are most determined to join their God, we’d be in heaven ourselves, at least for our alotted timespans on this lump of rock and dust swooping about in the big black space called time.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 26, 2005 at 3:46 AM
Yes but Mrs Rabbit is so in name only, the doe is actually a Snake, but a cute Danish one and three healthy Kittens show a good union has been achieved.
Must go home and have dinner, after will be looking by in about an hour, to see if the God Squad has arrived. Is Liz waiting for the God Squad too?
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 26, 2005 at 3:49 AM
Now upon re-reading that gives one heck of a weird image for kittens doesn’t it? Rabsnattens? Rakes?
....................................^^..............................Daft Rabbit hops off for something to eat…..
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 26, 2005 at 3:53 AM
Are you an Australian Rabbit then, or a New Zealand one…. but you talk also as if you were right in the thick of North American events… I’m not. Thankfully.
Posted by Liz on Sep 26, 2005 at 4:28 AM
Question: What is a Jebusite?
Is a follower of Jesus W.‘s brother. Somebody let me know, OK? Gotta run now, have to bail out my son from jail and take my wife to the airport. She’s flying to Paris to do some shopping. Take care and may God bless Corporate Amerika/Saudi Arabia.
Posted by jazzfan on Sep 26, 2005 at 4:53 AM
Back to the article, if Moyers generalizes too far by broad-brushing the Reps at large, it’s only by a half-step.
When I hear of activist Republicans vociferously denouncing the infiltration of biology classrooms by the Old Testament, when they publically abandon any sponsorship of a marriage-defining amendment to the Constitution, when TV preachers who advocate political assassination are shut down hard instead of their words being called (in a singularly mealy-mouthed fashion) “regrettable”, I’ll believe that the party isn’t possessed by the spirit of aggressive reactionary Christianity.
Moyers has it dead-on when he says we’re too polite, to afraid to speak right out about values that denounce sectarian control of the law. When they call us traitors, satanists, degenerates, we should fire it right back that they’re medievalists, dogmatists, fearful of the liberty they glibly claim is their agenda.
And more to the point, they should be disobeyed. Whether they finnagle control over the law or not, when it comes to matters of conscience and personal guidance over one’s own mind and body, they should directly and without pity be disobeyed and fought off if they try to bully.
See if they can keep me from legally joining my life to the one I love! See if they’re able to grab my childrens minds and force them into medieval, knowledge-fearing shapes.
That’ll be one fuckin’ fight!
Posted by Kuya on Sep 26, 2005 at 5:01 AM
Rabbit is an Aussie Rabbit. Irish Scottish ancestry. The internet is a good medium of exchange and Rabbit is a citizen of any medium he cares to enter.
How can anybody NOT be in the thick of events of the magnitude of that we are witnessing?
The only difference is perception. Rabbit is small, somehow the World does not seem to be so big though. Have lived and travelled a bit and many things and places feel close when they are no longer strange.
From whence cometh the good Liz?
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 26, 2005 at 5:01 AM
Hi ho,
Q:How did these religious poseurs obtain the moral high ground?
A:They claimed it.
Q:Why do these zealots have as much power as they do?
A:We allow it happen.
Frankly,these bumpkins who sell religion like after-life insurance should never have been able to gain as much power as they have.They have a product to sell and will never quit until everyone is a loyal customer.
Unfortunately,opportunists in a certain party sought to manipulate the religious right to tap into their coffers.Just look at the mess.
Compared to the G.O.P.,Dr Frankenstein was a rank amateur.
Posted by wwoods on Sep 26, 2005 at 5:53 AM
Kuya
Have read Rabbit post about Mormon family?
This is the sort of people who form the God Squad. They are among the core of the last supporters of “The Junta”. These ones are in Westren Autralia too, it is no further away from Rabbit than he must face the same insane radicals in his house too. (Not for a while though after the last round, thinks I)
Rabbit knows them well and there are many examples. They have even less of a coherant argument than the Right wing Dittos and Morons we see around here. These God Squad people are totally irrational, they cannot even articulate anything better than “Get down on your knees”, “you need to ask God for forgiveness” “We must have faith” “God will take care of things” Put it all in the hands of Jesus and lets go sing some lame songs.
Kuya, how the F**K do we reason or otherwise deal with these people?
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 26, 2005 at 6:06 AM
The horror was it was so easy to convince them Bush is their messiah.
He says God and Jesus a couple of times and even though he’s never even been seen in a church he is their great Christian Leader.
Lets be quite clear about this Wwoods this is a truly incredible , most surreal situation we are witnessing. Does it ver strike you as it does Rabbit, this just cannot be happening? I am going to wake up any day and everything will make sense again? Up will be up, day will be day and left and right will at least occupy opposite sides of the plane.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 26, 2005 at 6:13 AM
From Moyers’ article:
“Fundamentalist bullies cannot be appeased. they must be confronted.”
Bingo!
I maintain the only reason Ghandi could make those statements was due to others who “confronted” evil.
It is the police, the military, and all individuals willing to put their lives at risk fighting (killing when necessary) not for personal gain, but for freedom, liberty or to protect the weak, who have held societies together for pacifists and dreamers. Without them all would be anarchy.
What good is it to “confront” a bully if you are unwilling to fight? My religious experience is somewhat like Rabbit’s. My more literal Bible believing father always said, “We are to turn the other cheek.” My mother said, “Don’t start a fight, but if someone hits you, hit back twice as hard.
All my fights were of one punch
Posted by whattheheck on Sep 26, 2005 at 6:15 AM
Bonny Prince Charles had a bastard son in Ireland if I recall.
Rabbit got into it with the school bullies evrywher. Glasses, non-conformist, bookworm, but saild an sawm lots on weekends. Rabbit kicked their arses at each school, then went back to being the school outcast. Could never give any noitice to all the “Suckholes” who were always so ready to transfer loyalty to the new “Tough Kid”.
Never made the grade as a tough kid, just a Bully Basher.
Have noted the book, don’t know if it’s anything like it but Bryce Courtenay’s “Power of one” inspired and Richard Bach’s, “Jonathon Livingstone Seagull”, “Wings” and “Bridge Across Forever” are the quintessential soul books for modern man.
Goodnite for now.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 26, 2005 at 7:28 AM
WTH the thing about fundamentalists and confronting them needs more discussion, Rabbit agrees but needs to extend this to mean all fundamentalists, in this case especially the Christian ones. It is first and foremost our duty to confront our fundamentalists. The Muslims are quite willing and capable of dealing with their fundemenatlists if give a chance. The problem begins when our fundamentalists get control as they have, and obviously it gets worse when their fundy’s get the reigns.
What can be seen in the ME as we speak is that the very act of allowing our fundys to call the shots and threaten others is giving their fundy’s a fantastic recruiting tool. The fundys who have arisen in ME have typically done so on the back of mis-guided Western interference. If we could all take charge of our own backyards we might soon see that once the fundys of all persuasions are dealt with by their own nearest neigbors, the rest of us will probably be able to get along fine afterwards. Rabbit has said clearly why before, hint the FOUR IDEALS.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 26, 2005 at 7:36 AM
GhostRabbit: I definitely understand where you’re coming from. There are wing-nuts in every organization, creed and religion. It sounds as if you are related to a few of them.
But keep in mind that not all Mormons are like that. “Wing-nut-itis” is somewhat rare in my experience although I’ve definitely met my fair share. I’m a Mormon and, unlike your family, I decidedly agree with Mr. Moyers assessment of how religion is being used to overtake and demean our great nation. And how the once great GOP party has been possessed by the neo-cons and their twisted agendas. It makes me sick sometimes just thinking about it.
But I also agree with whattheheck’s point made above that not all religions are politicized and controlling as we are seeing with some of the religious right groups. To label all religion into the “religious right” category casts too great of a shadow over all of the good that is done by all denominations in this country. The good folks at Interfaith Alliance have made this point spot on. Check out the web site here: http://www.interfaithalliance.org
Also, as an aside, I’d like to set the record straight that the LDS church’s policy is hands-off and neutral concerning politics. It definitely encourages its members to be politically active as they see fit (although most choose poorly in my view), but the church itself does not ascribe to any political party, view or dialogue and does not tell it’s members how to vote.
And that is how I think it should be.
Posted by jamesd on Sep 26, 2005 at 9:34 AM
Hi whattheheck
You wrote :
“It is the police, the military, and all individuals willing to put their lives at risk fighting (killing when necessary) not for personal gain, but for freedom, liberty or to protect the weak, who have held societies together for pacifists and dreamers.”
Many pacifists have/do put their lives at risk and many have lost their lives for their beliefs. My own pacifism is more practical and pragmatic than an absolute radical principle. I do not think it is morally wrong for someone to “kill when necessary”. I do think that refusing to fight and working for peace are the better answer to violence. Violence begets violence.
Posted by David in Canada on Sep 26, 2005 at 9:51 AM
Rabbit
Posted by whattheheck on Sep 26, 2005 at 10:39 AM
There’s a basis for the old adage: “religion is the opiate of the masses.” Truer words were never spoken!
Posted by g-love on Sep 26, 2005 at 1:58 PM
Hi James there is nothing in whatyou say which Rabbit would disgree with.
Self many years as LDS member and have retained great respect for the Church. Rabbit is well aware about LDS Church policy too. Indeed many members consider Rabbits menbtioned family to be over the top.
The thing about it though is that it is one of the Christian faiths which is susceptible to Wing-nutism. Rabbit would never say that all Christianity or all of any doctrine leads to fundamentalism. My point is that the fundamentalists, God Squad, for short, come out from the bowels of religion and as such need to be dealt with by the individual religions.
The alternative is what we have now. An entire people, essentially separated from us by no more than religion, who are being made our enemy in war.
For both of our sides the people who are cheerleading and desirous of this war, are the fundamentalists. These people are the weakest link in any organisation. They are dangerous now because someone has hijacked their faith and is using it to bring about the fundmentalists own worst nightmare. All the way the Fundy’s think they are getting closer to re-uniting with their God.
These people are bats, they are blind and totally beyond reason, and they’ve got guns!
(They actuallyhave the most enormous arsenal of destruction at their fingertips and they “want” to use it.)
Be sure of Rabbit intentions James, he definately does not label all religion as radical.
WTH and Rabbit also on the same page, there are plenty of relions, including Christian denominations which are non-politicised. For this it’s hard to look past the Budhists though. Last step for Rabbit beofe accepting Gnosticism was all was Budhism, and they are gentle and good. Still like all religions the majority of its adherants only understand the wider message via symbolism, but whatever it takes.
WTH Rabbit will be posting a reply to you in a few hours. It is very important, but must deliver a boat to Mandurah a couple hours away first.
g-love. is right, but only the masse who haven’t already got Opium, or whatever your choice, if you know what Rabbit means.
The effect of allowing any “DRUG” to replace those four Ideals of all life. Alcohol, Cocaine, Weed, Religion even Politics can become opiates. All lead to abandonment of nmatural human principles in an insidious way, and can come to dictate all our life and relationships etc.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 26, 2005 at 6:32 PM
On the Scottish thing, again (won’t swear by this, it is what Rabbit remembers Granny telling him as a weeny one) A french born servant had a small one to Charles who was as far back as we could go. The wife is a descendant of the Danish “Gorm the old”. Much celtic and viking blood in Rabbits family. Proud Freedom Barbarians, but strong supporters of village life.
The things we will be examining in detail WTH will be 911 especially in relation to Iraq. We need to examine the differences certain scenarios would have on our opinions in these instances. We need then to look at Christian Fundamentalists, in light of your contentions about Just and right warfare. Especially in respect of how they are critical components of the support for war in the Middle East.
Others may have tackled this last before Rabbit gets back. Just a minor detail, remeber Robertson contributed majorly to Bush re-election and are staunch supporters. It would seem logical to any reasonable person that if such lunatics as Robertson support the same cause as one’s self, that should be reason enough to at least look very carefully at one’s own cause and what constitutes the facts upon which the opinion is based.
Rabbit has said that The God Squad Fundys are saying the same things as WTH to justify their crazy ideas, just not able to articulate all the details so they substitute faith and “Gods Word” whenever in doubt.
...
Point is…..These are your allies….Doesn’t that worry you WTH?.......It would worry Rabbit.
...
Back later….......^^........
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 26, 2005 at 6:49 PM
Actually since this alone could be the Paradigm shifting thing for you WTH, and because Rabbit’s coffee is still hot.
............
The information needs to be shared and things re-considered in that light to actually make the full jump, but this idea should give one such as you pause WTH.
......
Consider that here are numerous people with whom you have interacted, on this site and others of a “Left” persuasion. We have all shown ourslevs to be varied and most clearly have a lot of clues and superb reasoning skills.
The fact that we really care, is shown in our very presence. Many ridicule Internet Blogging and Forums such as this, as being doing nothing. They are just not getting it. The internet is a huge community and is very much connected to the community at large via every single terminal. (We are each and every one, seen and invisible…{Hi watchers}...a terminal to the rest of our communities.)
We are the public debate which has never really gone beyond the local meeting house before.
Now among these people WTH you will notice many who are over the top Lefty and you will have noticed plenty who are over the top Right wing. Amongst this latter it should be apparent it is here the God Squad resides. You have seen them, Rabbit may be mistaken, but I’ll bet you have noticed a lot less reason and ability to discuss and find compromise, amongst those of a more “Leftist” persuasion.
Now the fact is that Rabbit hates using these words Left and Right to delineate any people.
It just does not work. WTH you are as much a holder of so called Left wing ideas as many of us hold ideas which are basically normally said to be rightist. The thing is only the extremists among us can accurately be charactersised as either. That is logical really. Thus the rest of us, those with more nuanced views, who are able to and desirous even of engaging in a two way communication in order to not only teach but to learn, we are not definable by left or right except in the relative sense. You are more Right wing than me, but you are are standing far to the left of that guy over there.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 26, 2005 at 7:29 PM
If Rabbit ever comes across as arrogant it can maybe be traced back to this attitude of his, which cannot actually define left anfd right as anything more than adverbs.
The fact is that when Rabbit looks at those who are furthest to the left, they are small in number and dwindling, often re-adjusting their vies over life, what is often called left is no more than the abandonment of many old ideas and an opening up to many new possibilities. The process may be left wing, but the result is typically much more balanced, someone like Rabbit for instance.
The Extreme Right is not diminishing. It is becoming more and more isolated and defined. The God Squad are in there well dug in and nothing short of an Apocalypse is going to move them at this point. If you don’t believe Rabbit, ask them.
Rabbit will wager a bet that WTH is going to turn around in the next few days and have a look at those with whom he is siding, even if only by default of the same cause. WTH is going to compare this to the spectrum of opinion, the massive variety of souls who much more gently yet firmly are saying no this is not what it seems, look away a moment, re-focus on something you know is real, then look back. The story of the Emperors New Clothes will come to be the most poignant political commentary in an instant, just maybe.
Rabbit has been using the allegory since Katrina, annd can see that it has become an oft repeated comparison for many more too. The parallels are shocking and then if you have not WTH, read, or re-read Orwell’s, 1984.
Will come back to the above but this part is worth thinking about WTH. Rabbit is delighted you have turned out to be a shining one and you are. Many find their way out of the labyrinthe by chance. Few have the power to find their way out, it is the most awesome thing I have ever seen actually, and twelve months ago would not have expected to see it happen over years. Suddenly it is a weekly experience. It is both exhilarating and a little frightening.
This seems to be happening for a reason. A quickening. James as an LDS you know the significance of this?.........The Quickening is upon us…......Sorry folks, silly Rabbit again…But maybe?
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 26, 2005 at 7:30 PM
Sorry long….
“a lot MORE reason and ability to discuss and find compromise, amongst those of a more
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 26, 2005 at 7:32 PM
Teasing a little here ...
whattheheck writes : “All my fights were of one punch
Posted by David in Canada on Sep 26, 2005 at 7:54 PM
More teasing ..
GhostRabbit writes :
” You are more Right wing than me, but you are are standing far to the left of that guy over there. “
whattheheck writes :
” This kind of generalization is on a par with the very faction Moyers is criticizing. I consider myself to be an independent
Posted by David in Canada on Sep 26, 2005 at 8:12 PM
Back in a couple of hours David. Want to go into the basics with WTH for Rabbit feels we have found the gate between our two fields.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 26, 2005 at 8:24 PM
.. and in the final analysis, to get back to the origins fo the article, the fundamentalists and extremists, of all stripes, shapes and sizes, have stolen and continue to steal the only thing of value we really and truly can call our own, the ideals we all hold so dear; peace, love, etc, etc .. if that isn’t too generalized and rhetorical. Big grin while I write this.
Posted by David in Canada on Sep 26, 2005 at 9:06 PM
“I smite, you smite, he smites… we done smote!”—from the Coen Brothers movie; ‘The Ladykiller’s’
WTH wrote: ”...just because the president is a religious [fundamentalist] is no reason to tar the whole [Republican] party with the same brush. This only serves to further divide and radicalize people.”
WTH here writes perfect copy for postcards from the 51st state—what Kurt Vonnegut refers to as the fifty first state—the state of denial.
Where were you during the election campaign when the party used the church as a bully pulpit, or during the end days of Terri Shiavo, for crissake?
Posted by Tim Christopher on Sep 26, 2005 at 9:26 PM
For WTH, start…
..
The left wing are in a better position to be able to accept the views Rabbit and many others here espouse, that is perhaps because the right has the problem we seem to be facing from within it’s own ranks. Permit this humble observation. It is entirely natural that such a problem as we describe would be harder to discern the closer one was to it. Logical? This does not say that WTH is part of the problem except in an indirect sense by supporting their aims. The ideas are not actually left wing either, they are simply an alternative but as a reaction to the extreme right, and due to the ease with which
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 26, 2005 at 11:51 PM
Now the usual response to this is to point at some obscure incidents of small groups of people dancing in the streets in Middle Eastern Countries.
These instances were few and far between but were given maximum coverage by MSM. They were neither typical nor were they presented in context. Some of the footage was actually from Israel, where there was not only some dancing in the streets by shall we say
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 26, 2005 at 11:52 PM
There is speculative stuff at the end there, but it remains to bring this into Rabbit
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 26, 2005 at 11:59 PM
Take away the genuine grievances from the long suffering people of the Middle east and if all you have left is a bunch of fanatics full of intolerance and hate, the Muslims will soon shove those swine back in the box. They don
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 27, 2005 at 12:00 AM
Hello Rabbit,
Way back up-thread, you asked me how to reason with (so to speak) legislatively ambitious fundamentalists, or to phrase it better and more accurately, theocrats.
The only way I can see it happening is to simply forbid sectarian domination over the law, to separate church and state and make it stick. For one thing, reasoning with them doesn’t work, because their positions have little to do with reason except to logically pursue the conclusions based on their inviolable a priori assumption, e.g. that the Bible and every literal word in it is a direct transmission from the mind of God to the society of men. Add the Quran, Vedas, Pali Canon, whatever whatever. The fundamentalist stance is that it’s impossible for scripture to be interpretable within a particular historical or cultural context, because it supposedly stands outside of historical forces. That means there’s no latitude of meaning and understanding, it says what it says and it’s the unquestionable, permanent, cosmic truth.
A little study of scriptural history dispels that view without, I believe, diluting the wisdom that can be found in holy writings. But when they’re unquestionable, when we’re basically forced to accept the dictates of priest-pastor faction who convince politicians that they’re incapable of being wrong, it all falls apart, and becomes just another mechanism for oppression. That includes majoritarian oppression (e.g. one of my line-in-the-sand issues, restriction of marriage rights).
There’s little of reason in their insistance that simply holding other values than theirs is an attack upon the foundations of the universe. But that’s what they think, and if they control the law, that’s the paradigm we’ll all have to obey.
For God’s sake, I’m not even an atheist!
They simply have to be forbidden from foisting their religious culture upon us by way of law. If they choose to exert religious discipline within their own lives, I will fight to make sure they’re able; the Soviet tactic of trying to destroy faith with force was a bitter oppression of its own, for example (not to mention, they failed miserably despite their brutality), and anyone who believes in conscience would have to have opposed it. Better yet, subverted it.
The crusader faction in America likes to prattle on about liberty, the religiosity of the Founding Fathers (which is highly debatable), etc. So let them live with an official and cultural separation between church and state. Make sure government is religiously neutral, permitting any worship form or none at all if one is atheist. The intensity of feeling among fundamentalists is not a sufficient reason for them to be able to control the law. It will just be a recipe for sectarian domination, educational erosion, victimization of targeted out-groups who don’t have Biblical favor, and control of culture by overly strict, zealous, delusional people who actually believe in fairy-tales like a 6000 year old universe.
And if they want to continue believing that and teaching that to their kids, oh well. It’ll give my own kids a competitive edge in the real world.
Posted by Kuya on Sep 27, 2005 at 1:26 AM
By the way, you actively religious types, before you call me a hater or anti-religion, just hold your horses. If you want to push the line of devoted compassion, doing good works in the world, promoting a sense of worshipfulness toward the source of all being and consciousness, I’m there. Teach away. Push the compassion of Jesus, you’ve got an ally.
But don’t expect me to stand still while moves are made to make it law, either statutory or Constitutional. No cops, no courts, no law that compels worship or adherence to sectarian values not my own. Nope. I refuse. And I hope every thinking person disobeys all of that stuff to the limit of their endurance.
Posted by Kuya on Sep 27, 2005 at 1:43 AM
That is the surreal part though, that they just cannot be reasoned with. It is a scary thought Kuya but it is hard to avoid concluding that the only way to deal with fundys is, with vuiolence. Not a problem before, but shit, they’ve got the bomb now dude. They’ve got the flaming Button, and they are not afraid to use it. Jesus Christ mate these maniacs want to bloody use it.
They scare the bejesus out of Rabbit, I can tell you, and Rabbit is an Gnostic. Please don’t mistake Agnostics with Atheists. We are the opposites as it happens. Just in case when you say Atheist you were thinking Rabbit.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 27, 2005 at 5:29 AM
Rabbit would appreciate any help going on the Radioactive wounds of war thread. The most determined yet outed shills are preaching death and evil and resort to complaints (False) to stifle opposition as well as every dirty shilling trick known to man.
What is more it is an issue most any body from any political persuasion around here can agree on thinks Rabbit. Thread is long but it has certain unique features as will be seen..
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 27, 2005 at 5:44 AM
“We also know that the
Posted by wolf on Sep 27, 2005 at 7:10 AM
The writer has an agenda, alright. I have an agenda, you have an agenda—we all have our agendas.
Posted by Tim Christopher on Sep 27, 2005 at 8:11 AM
This seems to be happening for a reason. A quickening. James as an LDS you know the significance of this.
It sounds like that movie, “The Highlander”. :-)
Seriously, I was very glad to read the statement that, “Rabbit hates using these words Left and Right to delineate any people. It just does not work”. I agree wholeheartedly. But these monikers have been quite effectively used to divide the US. Even if we don’t use these labels, those in power will and will use them very effectively. You see it in the media every day (especially in the Fox News and Propaganda Channel). And the pundits and followers of the current push have written the red vs. blue and us vs. them mentality into everything they write or publish. Thus creating an even wider divide.
This is not a typical, “wouldn’t it be nice if we didn’t use these labels” situation. These labels are a weapon. Just as effective as any gun in silencing an opposing view. If you dissagree with their views that the red states are the “true” America and that the conservative views are the only realistic and moral possibility to consider, then you are automatically given the label, “Liberal”. And that label comes with all the negative connotations that it has been warped to contain.
If you haven’t yet read the book, “What’s the matter with Kansas?”, read it. The beginning chapers hits right on this subject in how the perceptions have been altered over the years so that any liberal-style thinking is automatically thought to be elitist, snobbish, tea-drinking, Europe-loving, hedonistic, intellectually superior, wine-tasting, American-hating, Blue-stater, blasphemous lies. In their view it is extremely white or black (or Red and Blue in this case) with no shades of grey allowed. You are either with us or against us.
Well, I have liberal-style thoughts. Lots of them. But none of the descriptions above pertain to me, or at least I’m unaware that they do. In fact a good portion of the descriptions (hedonistic, snobbish, elitist to name a few) aptly describe Bush’s “base” instead. But of course no one bothers to see past the surface of the rhetoric to see that.
It was mentioned above in this list that you should read 1984. I agree. (Although I think he was twenty years too early with his title.) While we aren’t to the extreme control as is displayed in that book, a good portion of the “mindspeak” and control over thought patterns is very much evident in today’s government. Brought to us in the most part via the media.
So how can we avoid the ending in 1984? Because at this point I’m just making myself depressed…
Posted by jamesd on Sep 27, 2005 at 10:54 AM
Hello again Rabbit,
My hesitancies about initiating violence against fundis are 1) it would be immoral and oppressive, and I don’t want to become what I hate, and 2) it wouldn’t do anything but galvanize counter-violence. Oppression doesn’t make people go away, they just go underground and make plans for the future. Also, at least in America, I think too many people would see an assault on fundis as an assault upon religion per se and would rally to their sides, not just evangelical Christians but even lukewarm ones, as well as most of our citizens.
So I see practical and (mostly) moral reasons against attacking them. However, I feel perfectly free to defend myself, my loved ones, my country against any sort of movement toward a Gilead-like revolution, as per Margaret Atwood’s novel “A Handmaid’s Tale”. That’s a work of fiction, but when I read it I couldn’t say that its scenes and speculations were entirely unrealistic, in a not-too-distant future day.
However, since the more likely (and some would say observable here-and-now) scenario is slow infiltration of our institutions by sectarian priorities, I’ll work to contribute to a social and legal culture that stays religiously neutral but that permits worship in whatever form, pushing scientific attitudes to the extent that people are willing to investigate and discover new information about how the world and people work. There are lots of good reasons why people worship, social, cultural, even possibly biological if you like to read some of the interesting material on the subject in anthropology and physiological psychology. I pray myself, though silently, figuring that The Real Thing, if it cares to listen or has the capacity to do so, will catch my drift. Worst case is that it’s a psychological game played against the background of the instinctive fear of death. I’ll see when I’m dead (or not see anything at all, as the case may be).
I’m not at war with the faithful, even the evangelical, but I just don’t want them to control the law. Middle Ages Europe, 1990s Afghanistan, ongoing Saudi Arabia, etc etc, how many examples of excessive connection between priests and rulers can one cite? Anti-freedom, to say the least.
Posted by Kuya on Sep 27, 2005 at 6:25 PM
Wolf there are those of us on this thread who are probably better informed about Christian doctrine and bible than you.
............
Rabbit has previously known you to spit hellfitre and brimstone, you are very ready to do the “Vengeful God” act, remember I’ve seen it in full flight.
...........
Like many self deluding Christians you talk about a loving God and yet you seem to revel in the blood and guts at every opportunity.
..........
Now that the God Squad Cheerleader is here, we can really begin. ..
Rabbit has been calling you Wolf, what kept you?
.................
Wolf,
Rabbit and probably James too has 4 years of Seminary behind him. What are your qualifications to discuss Christianity?
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 27, 2005 at 6:29 PM
James
There is a tremendous amount of truth in the fundy view of what is happening. The question of course becomes which came first the chicken or the egg.
Prophecies have a immense creative power, the more who believe, the more that power grows. This is partly why usually the seer cannot absolutely say what will be.
The fact remains that such ‘beliefs” which have been fed by most cultures over hindredsd of years or more, hold quite a bit of momentum.
With the visions summoned by our shared prophesies, coupled with the very real life counterpart, it is understandable to be afraid.
Faith in something magical like a ‘Translation’ or whatever the big “save” is called, has to be long practised until all reason and logic is gone from one. In this way only is it possible to strive for Armageedon and feel clever doing it.
Then of course such people are completely Rabid and leave us with no choice but to excise them somehow. Rabbit is not advocating violence, he has recently chosen to give evrything he has to try and avoid the otherwise Massive violence which is approaching. The question remains whta are we going to do to bring the God Squad back to earth or at least make them leave the Earth intact. They cannot be reasoned with, they have got the gun, and they are completely predictable qat this point.
.........
It is a very worrying thing if you consider how many “conservative” thinking people are turning a complete 180 degrees in their feelings about US direction and Politics.
The woorying thing is that the core supporters who were never in there due to conviction anyway. Since they chose Bushler for no reason just Faith, and since Faith is all they have, they are unlikely to fall away.
Rabbit foresees an almost solely Fundamentalist support base remaining about the Junta, before long. They will be completely isolated, unreachable and they still are holding the Bloody button.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 27, 2005 at 6:45 PM
beyond what rabbit has already said Kuya, we are in agreement on all points of what would be best.
...
To ask you a question Kuya, How long do you think we have to get the “GUN” out of the crazies hands before thye really do some harm?
Do we have enough time for the steady, steady drip of reason to soften the Rockhard shell of Fundamentalist Armour?
...................
It is at this practical consideration that Rabbit runs into the same despair everytime.
......................
Rabbit even has a simple Religion Buster, a supremely simple creed which should nullify the effects of religions, you have seen it
I think.
..............
Do you not feel that we are on the eve of destruction?
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 27, 2005 at 6:54 PM
Sorry but short…....
The more chaotic and horrifying the world situation the more the God Squad is going to commit to their course of action. Do you see haow incredibly dangerous a situation this is? Any sane and rational people would start to back away from a course of action which brings more chaos and destruction. These WACKOS are going to become more and more convinced they are right the more things go berserk.
........................
Man that is one hell of a situation, and very , very unstable.
.............
Makes you wonder of the brilliance of the neo-can Junta having alligned them selves with the Fundy Christian cause in the first place. When it comes to trashing the planet, these guys were made to order. They need only be a minority to work well, because they are such an all-fired voacl and absolutist minority.
.................
Once again Rabbit points out that these nut-jobs have got the Button. The BIG red scary BUTTON. Not to mention planes, bombs, ships, lots of soldiers and more buttons…...
...............
Seriously, this is not just an academic exercise. Wolf should be into his stride in a few posts then take the opportunity to observe one of them in action….......try and imagine him with a gun in his hand then, tell Rabbit that isn’t worrying.
.....
..............Hey WOLF….............
Rabbit thinks Jesus Christ was a Hippy like Rabbit and he probably smoked pot. He sure as heck was more comfortable among the crowd at the Pub than in the churches. God and Rabbit are good friends, God and Jesus loves Rabbit, they tell him so in his Rabbit heart.
..
...What says Wolf to this?........
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 27, 2005 at 7:08 PM
Kuya writes : ” My hesitancies about initiating violence against fundis are 1) it would be immoral and oppressive, and I don
Posted by David in Canada on Sep 27, 2005 at 7:55 PM
I’d like to remind Whattheheck the his belief that Americans military actions around the world somehow automatically equate to fighting for “liberty” and against “totalitarianism” may be no more that a comfortable, conditioned perspective. He forgets the death squads in Latin America and the overthrown democracies replaced by fascist U.S. puppet regimes. Iraq did not attack America, yet we saw fit to visit upon them our “shock and awe”, as we hurried to “secure” their oil fields. Suprise! No weapons of mass destruction… But, it’s all good. We needed to free them from that monster (who the U.S. put into power there, but who now refused to obey).
Also… Whattheheck may not know much of Ghandi. But Ghandi was able to say the things that he said because he was a man of great faith and personal courage and integrity. And it was he, himself, who stood up against the evils of his day and challenged the very self-righteous imperialism that Whattheheck inadvertantly seems to be advocating.
One man’s freedom fighter is another man’s terrorist. Thoughts like these deserve deep consideration. Let’s stop using Christian “religion” (whatever that really is… it certainly has nothing to do with the sensibilities of Christ) as a smokescreen to obscure hidden agendas that ultimately are contrived to help the rich get richer and to marginalize everyone who doesn’t support that idea.
This God thing of today is mostly self-serving human bullshit. ‘And I truly believe that God would agree with me… and Christ too.
Posted by ljwhit on Sep 27, 2005 at 8:22 PM
ljwhit writes : ” This God thing of today is mostly self-serving human bullshit.
Posted by David in Canada on Sep 27, 2005 at 9:11 PM
Only the God Squad will not allow you to claim their GOD. If it is not their God you are talking about, and only they are the boss of their GOD, then you are obviously talking about SATAN.
............
Get down on your knees David….
.....You know?.....
Rabbit mentions again the fact that the God Squad is no longer just a funny sideshow. They are the main driving force, or the excuse for the future which is looming like a very bad nightmare, an approaching Cyclone, or Hurricane.
...................
The storm is looking so big it may cross the boundaries of both hemispheres, then what do we call it…...........Hurriclone?...........
....
Maybe the word is already coined…............ Armageddon feels close.
............
........
Rabbit says again, guys they have got the Buttons and Guns and Boxes of bad things and they are in a corner of own making. Being nice to them is not working. Rabbit has a sister,........ you know the rest.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 27, 2005 at 9:54 PM
GhostRabbit says: Rabbit mentions again the fact that the God Squad is no longer just a funny sideshow.
True that the God Squad is humorless and certainly not humorous. These sick, dishonest Machiavellian bastards are truly dangerous.
True that their god is not my God. But it is not in the nature of my God to shrink in fear from their intimidations. Afterall, he who would save himself, will be lost.
We must offer a more honest God to those whose world is so narrow, stupid, contracted, and mean that all they have to justify their comfort zones is their self-rigtheous faith.
Perhaps the truth can set them free. If there is no power to love… then what is the point?
Take heart, GhostRabbit. No need to behave unwisely, the danger is real, but we must each do what we can to try to save the day.
Posted by ljwhit on Sep 27, 2005 at 10:45 PM
Hello again Rabbit,
As for guns, I favor strict regulation. For everyone, fundis, socialists, liberals, conservatives, hunters, and target shooters. Not total confiscation (except for illegal weapon holders), but careful, enforced regulation.
The 2nd Amendment gets so much heated debate, it’s an insoluble issue in America. Personally I don’t get too worked up over it. I don’t think firearms will protect citizens at large from oppression.
A lot of my in-laws think that favoring gun regulation is a daft position, saying that we might need to fight off oppressive government troops. But as far as I can see, governments everywhere on Earth will simply appropriate whatever resources are necessary to fight armed insurrection. Shooting at cops brings SWAT teams, shooting at soldiers leads to tanks in the streets. The state gets stronger, more ready to deal out violence of their own, when citizens shoot at them. So if (like me) one wants a less invasive and less brutal state, shooting at uniformed officers would be a 180 degree wrong tactic.
Fundis who arm up may fantasize about fighting off federales, but the events surrounding the Branch Davidian group in Waco TX during the Clinton administration was a pretty vivid lesson against their views. Whether the fire was deliberate or accidental, the point is that federal agencies closed in and were not going to play softball with armed resistors. We can debate about the BDs (from what little I read, they sounded rather bizarrely cultic in the worst sense of that word), or the competence and justifiability of the federal response, but anyone can see that their move to arm themselves didn’t help them. Probably it led more quickly to the fatal outcome.
Coming back to my original point, I’m less concerned about fringe wacko groups (not to discount fringe wackos like Tim McVeigh, who was executed for destroying the Murrah Federal Building with a truck-sized fertilizer bomb in Oklahoma City), and more worried about a popularly backed, fundamentalist legislative movement that gains power through activist political tactics and strong emotional appeal. For me that’s a more likely and more dangerous scenario. For violent fringe weirdos, there are law enforcement agencies. But when government itself has the agenda of pushing a sectarian line, who protects us then?
Posted by Kuya on Sep 28, 2005 at 12:16 AM
Oh yes, and as for people who have an overzealous “afterlife” emphasis getting ahold of warheads and missile systems, well, I think those types are far more likely to us the things precipitously than secular-minded types.
Not that I trust secularists who have nukes either. Still, if one believes that the “real” world is the one to come, on the other side of death, I can’t help but suspect that they’d hesitate to nuke an enemy less and be more likely to go for it. The ITT article pondering Iranian nukes drew this same response from me. It’s a quandry. The former Soviets were officially atheist; if they had been religious revolutionaries, would they have been more likely or just as likely to cap off a few MIRVs? Hell, maybe it makes little difference, but I do get a visceral sense of suspicion when people speak of “the world to come” as being more real than this world. Plenty of delusion to go around, I suppose, secular or sectarian, but in any case that’s my gut response.
Posted by Kuya on Sep 28, 2005 at 12:29 AM
Kuya
Rabbit agrees that firearms for protection from our governments does present a largely self defeating solution.
Violence is rarely the best solution and is never a preferred one for Rabbit. Any sort of violence should be entered into from a position of strength, and a last ditch defense against advancing superior forces is not likey to be one of strength, rather one of desperation.
.................As for Guns, the fact is and always has been that anybody who would use them for the wrong reasons is not going to follow the law anyway.
.....Guns are NOT hard to get hold of if one is determined. If one is already familiar with criminal circles, many are thanks to banning of popular drugs, it is downright easy…..........Rabbit is talking about Australia, which has had a level of Gun control you Gun Control Americans can only dream about. Also strengthened substantially of late. ....Rabbit swears that illegal firearms have become eeven more prevalent and easy to acquire since the recent tightening of Gun Laws.
......
Rabbit who is an experienced and very competant shooter, prefers not to own any firearms these days, legal or otherwise.
.............Rabbit is actually quite a good Explosives Chemist and Practitioner of the fine (and it can be fine) art of Blowing things up, not to mention cutting, softening and opening with high energy reactions.
Very highly exothermic reactions are Rabbit’s favorite toys…...He loves them….He loves Rockets of his own design and manufacture. Rabbit loves Catherine Wheels too.
.....Holes can be dug with such ease, with such toys. .........The point is that when it comes to violence, Rabbit though eminently qualified would do a lot to avoid having to do anything violent. Things can go bang without breaking and killing, Fire and Sparks can be much more than just an effective way to kill. They can be, should only be, for our enjoyment.
............
If the dreadful day comes when people must stand and fight those who would oppress them from within, then the best trick will be to get all the stuff you need of them. That is typically how resistances work. Rabbit has some old friends who were part of the Danish ressitance in their youger years, many interesting stories.
....We have always got the upper hand, w are the majority by a massive degree.
.................
Like Ghandi, we can and should extend a peaceful resistance to tyrrany for as long as there is a chance they will back down.
.....Unlike Ghandi we are facing a far more tyrranical, determined and entrenched foe. It may in the end come down to having to die fighting or live like curs.
....Oklahoma Bombing as well as many other “Events” over the last decade or two, are not good points of comparison anymore. There are too many “VERY” substantial questions about too many VERY critical deatils of such events, even the Federal Murrah Building.
...Rabbit will not accept that there is any proof that there are any particularly significant Terror organisations which exist for any other reason than as “Snowball” type creations. The unseen enemy, the danger against which we must defend ourselves at the cost of all freedom and privacy.
I am quite frankly sick and tired of people using these “Events”, so few and far between, as any kind of justification of anything. They are pretty few and far between even if all are legit.
.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 28, 2005 at 1:58 AM
It is not merely because of a few Crazy conspiracy theorists that there is an IMMENSE culture of people who are convinced that many of these things have been deliberately orchestrated by a single entity or two all along, but it is not those who have been very unconvincingly given the blame.
Rabbit does not raise these matters because he feels it is the time to discuss such things, seems off topic to be fair, but it is not as if these “events” were even well established facts. Many of the official stories have been so severely discredited at least that they have no more right to be badied about in serious discussion forums without qualification…...
.....
Rabbit assumes that people on this thread are sufficiently informed about recent developments in the 911 case? The whole deck of cards is due to collapse any day, and even a totally compliant media will not be able to hold back the flood waters on this one.
....
911 is of crucial importance, because if it was not what it seemed and we know it was not, then pretty much everything which has gone on since is cast in a “New Light”. That last sentence may be one of the greatest understaements of the decade.
....
The artifical WOT and the whole Painted Scenario comes crashing to earth, leaving the most arrogant and hubristic race of people ever envisioned, devastated, as a superpower, extinct. As a world leader, extinct. All in less time that it takes to write a constitution.
................
No knee jerk “Rabbit hates America” rubbish please from anyone. Knows Kuya is not so narrow minded, but who else is there? Rabbit is sad, devastated even to see this once beautiful and respectable Nation of Ideals, become what it is becoming. The worst of it is it is taking Rabbit’s homeland down with it, we are joined at the hip, or somewhere on Johnny Howhards Anatomy anyway
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 28, 2005 at 2:00 AM
Kuya Rabbit has before said that Iranian Nukes do not worry him, and they should not worry anyone.
The only reason Iran has a “More” religiously inclined government that even the Iranians want, is due to the interference and heavy handedness of US interference in their business.
...
Let’s not go there, unless you seriously don’t know what Rabbit is talking about when he says that the USA, solely responsible for the hatred held for it by not merely religious Iranians but the secular ones as well.
Iran is being backed into a corner and it is only natural they would seek Nuclear weapons for their defence.
Stop slandering the Iranians who have not engaged in violence or even threatened it against the USA.
They have legitimate grievances with the US, a long and well documented list, but are asking nothing than to be left in peace.
Still they are being slandered by the US, they are being asked to jump through even more impossible hoops than any devised for Saddam Hussein and they are actually jumping through those hoops with flying colours. Kuya you are a reasonable person, Rabbit requests you formally to have a closer look at the reasons for your judgements of Iran or indeed any Middle Eastern Nation. You have got some shocks coming thinks I and Rabbit is not being rude saying this. The time is come for the truth, you would want nothing less I am sure.
................
Let us say some Muslim God Squadder started blathering hate, in a similar way to a Robertson, for example. Let us say the Muslim government does not lock that Muslim Cleric in jail for saying such crap, but instead merely distances itself from the clerics words.
Does that justify calling that nation a terrorist nation?
.....If it does then the USA is by definition a Terrorist Nation too.
.............
How about Libya, set up, lied about, slandered and even had missiles shot at them by the US Military, not merely some Fundy nutcases, no sir, they got a few cruise missiles up their backsides and an attempt made to KILL Ghadaffi. Got some of his family for those who care. All Libya did was say we were not involved and nor is there any evidence to say our citizen was involved.
....
....Oh but Libya is a terrorist nation. The Lockerbie Bombing is the evidence for that. Yes it is about the only evidence for such claims….Who knows the rest of the story?
......The whole case has collapsed as a Senior policeman and a CIA agent have independantly come forward to say that the only piece of evidence to link the Libyans, was planted. That is just the death stroke for the case, there is a lot more went wrong actually.
.......
Now Kuya, does it seem right that this was done to Libya? Does it seem possible that Libyans might have a bit of bad feeling about that?
....
The most incredible news is that because they are Muslim nations they have a spiritual aspect to them which allows them to rise above a lot more of the hate and pettiness which is more common to Christian society on the whole.
...Mate if the MUslims were more intrinsically violent we would be living a daily bloodbath.
..............
Mate the fact is that it is mostly Muslims who are living the daily bloodbath, and it is us doing the killing.
...................An observation.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 28, 2005 at 2:22 AM
“Libya was hit with missiles by the USA for refusing to hand over some of its citizens for trial when they said there was no case for those citizens to answer.”
Being stationed in Germany when L.I.B.Y.A. meant Lakenheath Is Bombing Your Arse, I remember that the bombing of Libya (April 1986) was in response to the West Berlin Disco Bombing that killed many American serviceman. This was three years before Lockerbie (December 1989).
Posted by Jay Cline on Sep 28, 2005 at 8:12 AM
I don’t know if GhostRabbit is a fantasy persona or real. What is evident though is that Rabbit is able to think. He is clearly well-informed and researches for a more objective truth. He is not some ring-the-bell-the-dog-salivates, knee-jerk, programmed-by-corporate-propaganda type. He is outside the matrix, and sees what the real deal is… more or less. He is no longer sitting in the cave, watching the shadows cast unto the wall: he has gotten away and stepped out into the light.
He seems to understand what most are afraid to even consider, and what most are in fact dedicated to being in a state of denial about… in protection of their ego-centered self images and their immature comfort zones. Rabbit is not so easily controlled by the stupor of fear and insecurity.
Rabbit is right… and it bears repeating, that the “events” that are used by ruthless Machiavellian types to steer “the bewildered herd” are, when closely studied, bogus and not at all objectively consistent to the “official versions” of what occurred. There are important unanswered questions and valid reasons to be suspicious that the truth has been hidden and we are deceived.
‘And he is quite sensible to reflect that even if these events were actually legit, as shaped for us by the corporate media, they are so few and far between that is doesn’t make sense that they should be the center of our lives and the singular driving force of our national agenda. Our unelected “leaders” do not serve “the people” but are errand boys for, and members of, the stratospheric elite of the “new world order”, who would rule the world. They use these explosions, and their God bullshit, to steer the frightened herd towards the cliffs.
Posted by ljwhit on Sep 28, 2005 at 8:44 AM
The ability to quote Plato does not make one right. Remember, Plato also thought that societies should be ruled by philosopher-kings who had the right of sovereignty by virute of being smarter than the rest of us.
To say one has the ability to think, that one seeks objective truth, and then back it up with comments that are over-the-top conspiracy theories about “unelected leaders” and that “straospheric elite…steer(ing) the frightened herd towards the cliff”, is about as disingenuous and counterproductive to intelligent discourse as you can get.
It is no different than saying God exists because without a God, there would be no intelligent design.
Posted by Jay Cline on Sep 28, 2005 at 10:06 AM
Bill Moyers says,
—-
“Having lost faith in all else, zealots have nothing left but a holy cause to please a warrior God. They win if we become holy warriors, too; if we kill the innocent as they do; strike first at those who had not struck us; allow our leaders to use the fear of terrorism to make us afraid of the truth; cease to think and reason together, allowing others to tell what
Posted by Jay Cline on Sep 28, 2005 at 10:13 AM
To Jay Cline continued:
As for the elite: You are aware, are you not, that less than 1% of our population owns more than 50% of the wealth in our nation. Ponder for a while the implications of that. That, to my mind, is not exactly the kind of society
that our founders had in mind.
Speaking of conspiracy theories: Let me give you a couple of dots to connect.
Dot 1: Are you aware that in the early 1930s that the very popular Marine General Smedley Butler reported to congress that he had been approached to lead a military coup against FDR. The coup was backed by some of the nation’s wealthiest and most powerful business interests, who wanted to establish a Mussolini-like fascist government to replace our democracy. There was a congressional investigation which seems to have validated the possibility of such a plan. However, the whole thing was swept under the rug somewhat by insecure politicians and a not very free press. No one was ever held accountable. For a deeper look at U.S. history as it is NOT taught in our schools you could read The Plot to Seize the White House by John Spivak, one of the better researched accounts of the plot.
Dot 2: Are you aware that the term “military-industrial complex” was not created by some 60s hippie? The term was coined by President Dwight D. Eisenhower when he tried to warn the American public, during his farewell speech to them, that our government was insideously being taken over by military-industrial interests who were driven more by greed and concern for the nation. Read the speech, research the concept.
Dot 3: The Project for the New American Century—- The New World Order. This neo-con plan for the American Empire which calls for the U.S. to take control of the middle-eastern oil fields. Members of the Project include Cheney, Wolfowitz, Perle, etc. These plans were presented for consideration to Bush I, but he thought that the American people would not go along with such extreme measures when they lacked justification. In the neo-cons own language, some type of “new Pearl Harbor” would then be needed to bring the American people on board. How fortunate for them that 9-11 provided that new Pearl Harbor event to justify implementing this hidden agenda, which had been in waiting in the wings for a decade.
Do you homework.
I was in the Air Force Security Service, the USAF branch of the NSA, in the mid 60s. I had a top-secret, crypto clearance, and was involved in electronic/communications espionage. I spent 2 years in the northern snow mountains of Honshu, Japan and a full year in the Northwest Tribal Territories of Pakistan, where Bin Laden is now. One thing I came to understand from this and other experiences is this: Things are seldom what they seem. Most agendas are hidden and fed to the public as something else… something admirable. Truth is that there is are ongoing agendas in both domestic and foreign policy that have nothing to do with the commom good or our national interests, but instead are devised to transfer large amounts of public capital into private corporate pockets. This is not the society that our founder’s intended.
‘And any close, thorough, fact-based analysis of our last two presidential elections ought to leave some bit of fishy smell in your nostrils. Who are we to be trying to establish “democracy” around the world, when the will of “the people” is being undermined and discouraged here at home? These last elections are two of the most questionable in our nations history.
Obviously, I have too much time on my hands, Jay Cline. But it is good that we deliberate and respectfully exchange perspectives. This is what our founders intended. No one account has the total picture, but a collaborative pursuit of honest, objective truth will help to get us closer to it. The truth will set us free: and nazi-like, emotionally-conditioned, corporate-sponsored, faith-based propaganda will enslave us.
Posted by ljwhit on Sep 28, 2005 at 12:59 PM
Response to all three DOTs from ljwhit.
Yea, who doesn’t know that? You don’t need a top-secret crypto clearance to “ferret” that out.
Typical conspiracy nuts believe they know everything and everyone else is just dumb, blind and stupid. I believe the medical terminology is ‘delusions of grandeur’.
Did you know General of the Potomac Army George McClellan, affectionately known as “Little Mac” or unaffectionately as “Little Napoleon”, advocated a dictatorship (ie military coup) to rescue us from Lincoln’s simple-mindedness? And did you know that he was the Democratic presidential candidate running against Lincoln in 1864?
Did you know that Vice President of the United States Aaron Burr, the man who killed Alexander Hamilton in a dual during Jefferson’s presidency, was approached by the British to start a new “republic” out West? With British military support?
Did you know that Generalissmo Douglas MacArthur attempted to force President Truman’s hand with regards to using nukes in Korea?
Did you know that General Arnold Benedict ... well, you get my point.
What’s your point? I mean, short of invoking Illuminati conspiracies, that is.
My point, which you never even touched, is that
leading the country into a fight against an evil that actively target civilians and commits mass murder is not tantamount to fear-mongering.
(Mis)quoting the sign on the gates to Auschwitz, “Arbeit macht frei”, doesn’t give you much credibility, either.
Posted by Jay Cline on Sep 28, 2005 at 1:33 PM
One additional note:
“You are aware, are you not, that less than 1% of our population owns more than 50% of the wealth in our nation. Ponder for a while the implications of that. That, to my mind, is not exactly the kind of society that our founders had in mind.”
umm, you mean the kind of country where free men can aspire to be something? where free men can keep the fruits of their labors?
Did you know that nearly all of the really big tycoons in American history, started out with practically nothing?
Yeah, I really do believe that is what was intended…
Do your homework.
Posted by Jay Cline on Sep 28, 2005 at 1:50 PM
God, I just can’t let this alone. The more I read of ljwhit, the more I am left dumbfounded.
—-
Clearly on of the most questionable elections was the election of 1800, when Jefferson and the aforementioned Burr tied in the electoral college. It had to be decided in the House of Representatives.
—-
Per explicit clauses in the US Constitution.
—-
Just like the elections of 2000 and 2004.
—-
Don’t need no stinkin’ conspiracy theory to understand that…
Posted by Jay Cline on Sep 28, 2005 at 2:01 PM
The vacuous rodentia says,
“Let
Posted by Jay Cline on Sep 28, 2005 at 2:25 PM
Moyers reports,
“We know we can go through the Bible and construct a God more pleasing to the better angels of our nature. We also know that the
Posted by Jay Cline on Sep 28, 2005 at 2:43 PM
And if such evidence exists, then we must, by Moyers’ own logic, paint the Iranian mullahs with the same brush that he would paint the American religious right.
—-
After all, they share the same Father Abraham.
Posted by Jay Cline on Sep 28, 2005 at 2:45 PM
Clearly dumbfounded seems to be a natural state for Jay Cline. Sooo… 0.25% of the population having half the wealth in the country is the simple result of merit and virtue, aye? You’re a very complex thinker, Jay. Nothing amiss there. It is just that the majority of our people lack any substantial merit, ability, character, or virtue.
Hitler started at the bottom too. He was a self-made man… soo full of merit.
Jay Cline says: Leading the country into a fight against an evil that actively target civilians and commits mass murder is not tantamount to fear-mongering.
And who, Jay, is leading this fight against such evil? You seem to think you assumptions on the basics are absolute and not relative.
Jay conveniently overlooks such things as the not-really-necessary little A-bombs dropped on Japanese cities, the U.S. sponsored death-squads in Latin America, the massacres used to prevent self-determination in the Philiphines, and the yet to be fully investigated 9-11 attacks which were used as a springboard for the “shock and awe” devastation of a highly populated Bhagdad, in a country that did us no harm. So many dead women and children.
Perhaps this is tantamount to hyprocrisy.
Hey, Jay, the definition of “good” is not “something done by the U.S. government.”
‘And the definition of “evil” is not “opposing an U.S. imposed agenda.”
Let’s try using a single universal, operable definition for terms like “evil” because I’m not really that comfortable with the dishonesty of double and triple standards.
Posted by ljwhit on Sep 28, 2005 at 3:50 PM
Jay Cline, who has a familiar posting style BTW, is riding a long train of generalisations and working out from wholly unnacepatble presumptions to have come this far down the thread and to have still said, nothing substantial.
.......Don’t start petty small attacks of Rabbit before you have even addressed what were resoned remarks, one thing at a time Jay or else you will end up doing what Dittoheads do so well and that is start a dialogue and continue one between yourself and an imaginary ebing in your head.
You have no nead to assume, rabbit, he makes his points in an orderly and straight forward fashion and has anticipated most of you spiel already. You have fallen into a trap of your own making already adn are not debationg a actual contention as much as nit-picking at the periphery of the main points.
............
Common fare for many but something you will end up choking on if you expect to share a meal with Rabbit.
.......
Thanks for the Pat Ljwhit, Rabbit doesn’t ask for it but always warms his heart when others see he is not just a stupid Rabbit getting under peoples feet. Ljwhit is clearly seeing and has dealt with many of Jay’s contentions, Rabbit will have to work through them all a bit, in order to see if he needs add much.
....
It actually does not make an overarching difference about the attacks on Libya, when or why. We have yet to establish the details to all satisfaction here, and if it were critical we can certainly do so. Does the eventual turn out from Lockerbie, ie; False charges and deliberate planting of evidence have any bearing on how we see our relationship with Libya then, Jay. Is it OK we set them up to prove they are terrorists, because we just know that they are?
.....
Speaking from actual knowledge Jay, Libya is one of the most laid back, friendly and pleasant places to visit. Lovely easy going people, a huge stupid bureacracy which is bent whatever way necessary to get things done at a people level. The crime rate is apparently low, especially crimes against people. )Quite a secular state in fact, religious fanaticism is not visible.
......
Of course you are horrified and will probably call Rabbit everything from a terrorist to an idiot, but you will be wrong on all fronts by then and will be in danger of dissapearing up your own backside before we get to anything important.
....
Let us instead deal with the much more critical issue of 911, because you Jay as well as all the more or less informed of your frightened and panicky bunch of sheeple are convinced that that was your great justification for making war onwhat is coming to look more and more like the rest of the world…....Don’t start blathering already, sit back and shut up and listen to people who are neither confused, frightened (except of you) or unreasonable. We will find facts which support our contention and which make a steaming heap of poo out of your present “Beliefs”. That is all you have Jay and it will be shown to be so. You lack logic as well and probably all open mindedness which probably means you will make a complete ass of yourself from here on in.
....
That is OK too because your failure will stand as a lesson to others more capable of thinking for themselves and nothing is lost.
...
Trust a nice Rabbit who does not wish to cause you grief but who is more than capable of doing so if you insist. Don’t be in to much of a hurry until Rabbit says it is your turn, you have already crashed a bit before takeoff so cool your jets while Rabbit gets the time in bits and pieces to sort this out. Have to make Kayaks and talk to people about Kayaks in between, Rabbit you see is very real, he has a little Plastics Factory and is eating a warm Choc chip muffin with his morning Coffee.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 28, 2005 at 6:10 PM
Griffin on 911, paraphrased:
..
The official story that nineteen Arab men of fundamentalist Muslim persuasion hijacked four airliners and flew them into the WTCs and Pentagon, is a CONSPIRACY THEORY.
..............
The question to be answered is “WHICH” conspiracy theory is best supported by the facts.
....
Since some FACTS are on the table, if we are to continue discussing rationally we had best see where these FACTS take us, Jay and any others who are getting ready to weigh in here.
..
Rabbit gives you all fair warning if you start calling theories or opinions, FACTS, in this thread, Rabbit will bite your limbs off one by one until you are left looking like a large Witchety Grub wriggling on the floor, in your own gore…
......
There are pleanty on this site who can contribute to this and Rabbit hopes they will help by doing so, but let us keep to defining facts so we are all given equal chances to form logical opinions…....
...This does kind of exclude Dittoheads, but that does not mean they will realise it….We can but hope..
...
It is not off topic, it is crucial, because whenever the going gets tough the wimps call 911.
...
Rabbit opinion is that 911 should be a day of celebration for followers of Bush because in a grim way it is the only thing rabbit thinks he ever did right. Maybe as usual by not touching any of the buttons as he was told.
..
Without 911 they would have no case even in their own poor little heads, to kill so many people.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 28, 2005 at 6:59 PM
By the way Jay all your claims about Iran are full of holes. You are clearly VERY misinformed about recent history in the Middle East except the TV news. Whilst we will get back to destroying your claptrap, shackled together bucket of rusty bolts of an argument, Rabbit would like to just remove the wheels from your cart, right here from the start.
....................
911——-The So called “bloody nose” given the USA, and by some reckoning the Western world.
.....
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 28, 2005 at 8:27 PM
Question: If we attacked Libya because they wouldn’t turn over suspects, how is it that the retalitory attack in 1986 happened before the 1989 Lockerbie crime?
But, of course, you are right when you say,
“The official story that nineteen Arab men of fundamentalist Muslim persuasion hijacked four airliners and flew them into the WTCs and Pentagon, is a CONSPIRACY THEORY.”
And the evidence that Iran provided the muscle men for the four hijacked planes is mere conspiracy theory as well, supplied by an senior offical Iranian defector.
Well, that can’t be true. Defectors are never reliable.
Rabbit talks a lot but says nothing. Anybody got a good hasenpfeffer recipe?
ljwhit’s distribution of wealth statistis keep changing; not to mention flat out wrong.
Actually, the top 1% of the population has 1/3 the wealth. And the top 20% has 80%.
http://www.faculty.fairfield.edu/faculty/hodgson/Courses/so11/stratification/income&wealth;.htm
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=2050
But, suffice to say, some got more and some got less. Some work harder, some work less. Some are smarter, some are not.
I stand by my stated convictions. The failure of anything resembling socialism in the last century indicates quite clearly to me (dumbfounded or not) that only those societies that allow for and respect private property are the ones that are better for everyone. I do not believe in equal outcomes because I am arrogant enough to believe that I can do better for myself, as long as Big Brother don’t come knocking and level my hard earned wages with someone barely working.
I do hope someone comes to rabbits rescue. He is just a bit too rabid for my tastes.
Posted by Jay Cline on Sep 28, 2005 at 10:19 PM
Without 9/11, that’d be great.
—-
But it did. Blaming Bush, Inc is just sour grapes.
Posted by Jay Cline on Sep 28, 2005 at 10:22 PM
The Great Beast writes:
“The ability to quote Plato does not make one right. Remember, Plato also thought that societies should be ruled by philosopher-kings who had the right of sovereignty by virtue of being smarter than the rest of us.”
Goddamn right. If you should meet Buddha along the road… kill him!
Karma Chameleons:
http://bodyandsoul.typepad.com/blog/2004/08/karma.html
And now… Van Morrison: “Rough God”
“Why must we believe that God is sadistic, brutal yadda yadda yadda? What evidence is there that God slaughters?”
Hey, what evidence is there that a God exists, at all?
“A test of what is real is that it is hard and rough.”—Simone Weil
“To believe in God is not a decision we can make. All we can do is decide not to give our love to false gods.”
“It is not for man to seek, or even to believe in God. He has only to refuse to believe in everything that is not God.”
http://rivertext.com/weil3.html
“[Rabbit] is no longer sitting in the cave, watching the shadows cast unto the wall: he has gotten away and stepped out into the light.”
http://rivertext.com/weil4a.html
[The man who has left the cave annoys the great beast. Stendhal: “All good reasoning causes offense.”]
RABBIT: “...the WTCs and Pentagon, IS a CONSPIRACY THEORY.” “The question to be answered is “WHICH” conspiracy theory is best supported by the facts.”
Uncovering the truth of 911 is the single most important story of our time. Lets hope we know it before the whole shithouse goes up in flames—dead rabbits tell no tales.
Posted by Tim Christopher on Sep 28, 2005 at 10:33 PM
ljwhit,
—-
Ok, fair is fair.
—-
Let us define hypocrisy, then. For the sake of the argument, let us say Nagasaki, Hiroshima, Latin American death squads, Philippine massacres are all concrete evidence of American evil. Let us also add Dresden, Wounded Knee, Lincoln’s abolishment of habeas corpus and Adam’s Sedition Acts.
—-
Let us also assume that they all justify, or at least, legitimize by example, the 9/11 attacks.
—-
Is it then not also true that the 9/11 attacks themselves justify, or at least, legitimize by example, everything America has done in the name of the War on Terrorism?
—-
Please do not follow your colleague’s example and not answer your own questions.
—-
Please, what is hypocrisy?
Posted by Jay Cline on Sep 28, 2005 at 10:47 PM
Jay you are going to have to try and understand the difference between Facts and Opinions. Rabbit is content to verify facts as presented and we can then apply those verifiable facts to our opinions which are the only things which are able to be changed. Once you realise the difference you will be expected to refrain from substituting one for the other, either when making your points or when questioning another’s. If you wish to state something like the following as a fact then please be so good as to give a source.
..
..“evidence that Iran provided the muscle men for the four hijacked planes is mere conspiracy theory as well, supplied by an senior offical Iranian defector”
.. It does not actually make the world of difference to My overral contention Jay but you will have to do better than that.
.........
You are well advised not to call Rabbit names, for none you can coin will come close to striking Rabbit. Rabbit is to all intents and purposes impervious to any form of cave-man style effort you are likely to be able to produce. The biggest problem you face is that Rabbit is an Intelligent, Open minded, experienced and well travelled Rabbit. Rabbit is well respected by many on the Internet and has amassed some credibility as being able to see mistakes, change his mind on the basis of new evidence and even apologise when the situation calls for it…
..If Jay is foolish enough to try and get fancy with Rabbit he will be gradually and painfully turned inside out for the enjoyment of all and all the personality flaws which would have brought Jay into such an unnecessary conflict will be laid bare in such a way that Rabbits humble observations about you will sear your soul like hot water. ..
Rabbit is not nasty but has Zero tolerance for Shills and TRolls and Dittoheads who feel the need to push the wheel-less cart of a corrupt and thoroughly discredited JUNTA.
..Rabbit does not call petty names Jay, but that is all you have at your disposal, find a chink in the Main contention, don’t waste your time trying to pen some elegant dribble which when put to the test contains nothing of substance…
...............
It would not seem wise for you to talk about many words saying nothing. All this is said once, and it is you that has made it relevant.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 29, 2005 at 1:13 AM
Jay says:
...
“Question: If we attacked Libya because they wouldn
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 29, 2005 at 1:15 AM
Just noticed that all those words you posted on this page add up to zilch, we are examining the first and most crucial “FACT” Jay. The assumption by you and others that Muslim Fundamnetalists were solely responsible for 911.
...Once we have established the best theory to explain “WHO” was responsible for 911, we will examine the question of whether or not this event or if you wish any other justifies what is being done to the Mostly Muslim countries in the Middle East.
..
First the WHO, Jay because unlike some, Rabbbit likes to establish opinions of his own, based on “real Facts” not some unsubstantiated and wholly illogical claims.
...
Your opinions are downloaded when you plug into the controlled media program, and then you just seek re-inforcement for these things, unless you are one of those who then prays for guidance, which is a whole other beastie. Last but not least is someone with an agenda but Rabbit would not accuse Jay of being this, yet.
.
Jay has attempted to sound logical here so Rabbit shall just deal with this drivel.
..
.
“Let us define hypocrisy, then.”
........... Actually Jay we don’t really need to define Hypocricy, it can be looked up in the dictionary, please don’t Rabbit print it.
As for the examples of American Hypocrisy, far from complete but a good start, they are all good examples.
.....They do not mostly relate to why some Middle Eastern countries hate America, and not even the most insane fundamentalist would give most of your exmples a second thought. You should know this Jay, you sound really silly otherwise, their are very specific instances of RECENT US interference with the countries in question which are much more immediate and real grievances. The people who hate America are not philosophising to themselves about why they hate America. It is stunningly SDurreal to suit at this distance and watch so many Americans actually discussing among themselves why and struggling to come to grips with the idea that somebody hates them.
How can anybody be so stupid. Let Rabbit say it again, “The people who hate America are not philosophising to themselves about why they hate America, they have it all down in black and white, they are clear over their grievances and what they want. Most are saying it with words and angry demonstrations, a minority are taking this anger to action. No Middle Eastern country has ever attacked America and any evidence which exists to show any other governments have supported Terrorist interests against the USA, generally refers to the countries the USA counts as it’s most staunch allies. Pakistan, Saudi Arabi, Kuwait and ISRAEL.
.............These are not opinions Jay, they are facts, and they are the sort of facts which help Rabbit form his opinions…...Would you like to question any of them, I will source if you will.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 29, 2005 at 1:59 AM
.JAY asks:
———“Is it then not also true that the 9/11 attacks themselves justify, or at least, legitimize by example, everything America has done in the name of the War on Terrorism?
—-
....Hardly, 3000 people killed by an extremist group (Maybe) justifies waging war on two nations at least one of which never could have been in any way involved. The war includes the use of banned Weapons of Mass Destruction (Depleted Uranium, Dirty Bombs, Son), it is being waged in contravention of all the Geneva conventions and it has netted a total of about 150,000 of Innocent victims. Unless of course you are saying that no Muslim is Innocent.
...
Rabbit knows you mean that, but he doubts you are ready to say any such filth just yet.
....
Now Jay how is that for answering your imagined Rhetoric question?
....
..
Back to 911, ...The evidence so far points to the financial backing for 911, as having come from Saudi sources, with Bush family and Bin Ladins very closely allied finacially.
... http://www.prisonplanet.com/saudis_paid_bin_laden_200m.html
...
...http://www.prisonplanet.com/new_revelations_on_911.htm
..
...http://prisonplanet.com/bush_senior_in_business_with_bin_laden.html
...
...http://www.prisonplanet.com/the_bush_bin_laden_money_connection.htm
..
...Rabbit reminds the likely forgetful Jay to check any sources before you start spouting about unrealiable sources. For any one you question Rabbit will find Three to replace it. So make sure you don’t just go all from Prison Planet, not reliable, for if you are literate enough to have gotten this far you are capable of verifying that there is nothing at all from Prison Planet among these, they are merely a collection point for the sources Rabbit is using, and they are all good.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 29, 2005 at 2:00 AM
Still on the economics, but it gives a clear indication of certain very large holes in the official THEORY.
..
There was a huge amount of insider trading which was indulged by certain US and Israeli interests which give a very clear picture of massive foreknowledge of 911 by “Certain Parties”.
..
.......http://prisonplanet.com/profits_of_death_insider_trading_and_9_11.html
..
... http://prisonplanet.com/profits_of_death_part_2_trading_with_the_enemy.html
..
...http://prisonplanet.com/profits_of_death_part_3.html
..
....http://prisonplanet.com/suppresed_details_insider_trading_cia.html
..
...The point of this is not so much to say who did what, it is to disprove that it was the sort of secret operation, so well concealed that nobody had any clue until the planes hit…This is relevant because it is the Official Theory and here it just sucks. Lots of people knew it was going to happen, not just Major government and Business interests.
..
....http://prisonplanet.com/weve_hit_the_targets.html
..
..http://prisonplanet.com/weve_hit_the_targets.html
..
...http://www.prisonplanet.com/prior_knowledge_of_sept_11_not_just_urban_legend.htm
..
..If the US government was aware of and even as it will be shown maybe contributors to the scenario of 911, your whole case of 911 justifying an attack on Iraq, and even Afghanistan is dead in the water, you do realise don’t you, Jay, ...just checking….
..
We are only just warming up Jay and Rabbit has not even begun to get into his own area of expertise, explosives and using them to do things. we have not yet begun to look at the actual collapes, the clear evidence of cutter charges going off as the “Three” buildings came down in a way that has never been seen before, except many times in building demolitions of course. ..
..
Just a foretaste, Jay but do you know why very competant demolitions people would spend weeks preparing a skyscraper with explosive cutter charges in order to bring a building down in a perfect stack of rubble, evenly and safely?.
...If were as easy as flying a plane into the thing, and it would all happen like magic, why do you think we bother? Heh it must work dude, two quite large skyscrapers fell to Earth at the very speed of gravity, in the most perfect controlled demolition this Rabbit has ever seen, heard about even. It was classic, and the puffs of debris which preceded the point of collapse by about thirty floors all the way down, corresponded to the distance in time the cutters would have been set to pop.
..
There is a Janitor, the last person to leave WTC 1 before it came down, who is a witness to the fact that there was an explosion in the basement “BEFORE” the plane hit. He has another 27 witnesses who verify his story, including one person who was injured in the first blast and was subsequently saved by the Janitor.
..
Don’t freak Jay these are contentions which Rabbit will be presenting as Facts and backing up with LOTS of sources. For now let them start as a warning.
...There is more, much more and it will be backed up, what you have been given so far is but a small warm-up exercise.
..
Remember FACTS<——————————->OPINIONS
, you get the second one for free, but Facts will have to be paid for. None of this, it was on the news, and everyone knows it. Rabbit does not watch “The News” and nor should you. go get some facts and form your own opinions, why settle for a copy when the real thing is the same price?
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 29, 2005 at 2:34 AM
That was a long set of posts, and Rabbit must not for the first time apologise for being ‘hoggy’ of space. When Rabbit hops he needs room , but economical hops are not always small ones.
..
One thing is for sure Jay, for you to hop back and reply that Rabbit is weird or stupid or a Lier or any other odd fancy you may entertain, would be the height of foolishness, for any of the above Rabbit will sheer your toes off at the stump in one bite…
..You’d better not try and change the subject for that would also be a loss. Rabbit has put his contentions clearly and related facts to them. The overral contention, stands to be tested, piecemeal for now but sticking to Facts, we shall consider the worth of any opinion we may wish to emphasise along the way, by comparing it to facts…..........^^............
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 29, 2005 at 4:29 AM
just testing
html formatting
on this blog
Posted by Jay Cline on Sep 29, 2005 at 7:15 AM
Forgive me for a moment as I weed through toxic dung pellets as I search for Vorpal Bunny nuggets firm enough to respond to.
When VB states,
Iranians who have not engaged in violence or even threatened it against the USA.
and then argues that evidence of Iranian malfeasance in providing the muscle for 9/11 “does not actually make the world of difference to My overral (sic) contention” ,
I can then only conclude that VB a) has lost grip with reality, b) is a fool and really doesn’t understand, or c) is the criminal mastermind behind all of VB and ljwhit’s conspiracy theories and is engaging in a massive misinformation campaign.
Given the otherworldliness of VB’s logic, my bets are on c) and that VB is actually the evil hamster-like genius Dr. Jacques von Hamsterviel.
A similar argument can be made for VB’s continuing convoluted Libyan causality, even with his acknowledgement of having the facts grossly wrong.
VB’s contention that “seven (alleged 9/11 terrorists) are alive and well, and were not involved in any suicide acts “ reminds me of Mr. K’s comment on the real identity and location of Elvis.
I really love that scene with Tommy Lee Jones is hanging upside-down, rocking to the King…
VB then argues that those who attacked us on 9/11 did so because they hate us.
No! Really? So, if I hate someone, like my neighbor who I know is chopping my shrub down every couple years (who else could it be?), that is justification for murder? Oh, I am sorry. I forgot that the 9/11 attackers were American-hating Islamic Fundamentalists has yet to be proven. So, why are we wasting our time providing Grecian Apologies for their criminal non-activities?
I hate American-hating Islamic Fundamentalists who have committed non-murder, so that should be all the rationality we need to strike back. Oh, wait. I already made that point.
VB argues,
” Back to 911, ...The evidence so far points to the financial backing for 911, as having come from Saudi sources, with Bush family and Bin Ladins very closely allied finacially (sic - again).”
But, what was that money used for? According to the ever-lovin’ VB, it was not for American-hating Islamic Fundamentalists to kill 3000 people, so even if Bush is directly responsible for financing Bin Laden, no crime was committed. In fact, if Bush is directly responsible for the financial backing of Bin Laden, and Osama used that money to build Islamic schools and hospitals, then Bush and the American people are the Great Saviors of the Islamic people.
No?
The rest of VB’s logic rests on this notion of Bush financing Bin Laden and 9/11, but Bin Laden is not responsible for 9/11, so we must make the facts fit the theory and conclude Bush is the best thing to happen to the Middle East since The Prophet.
Posted by Jay Cline on Sep 29, 2005 at 7:17 AM
Jay it is hard to bother with you if you want to play imaginary maey upy games.
...................FACTS Supported by SOURCES.
OPINIONS Based on OPINIONS, none of your faith based garbage, you just lost all your toes and you have yet to raise a single fact worthy of the name, just half coherant opinions and not even particularly relevant.
If you are having trouble comprehending the very basic but well prented argument so far, how are you going to cope whe we get down to “Important Facts” not just this small stuff, which won’t even make or break anything.
...
Now stop dicking about and Rabbit will pretend you did not also just lose a few fingers with your feeble attempt at insulting a Rabbit who is more reasoned than you at your best when Rabbit is talking in his sleep.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 29, 2005 at 7:36 AM
Jay Cline aka Wolf (Bunny guess) says:
..
“and then argues that evidence of Iranian malfeasance in providing the muscle for 9/11 “does not actually make the world of difference to My overral (sic) contention” ,
...
No Drongo Rabbit SUGGESTED it makes no difference, if it was argued you’d know about it. Do you always go about things by nibbling around the dges like a baby?
..
What Rabbit asked was that you did not merely make unsubtantiated claims, that if you claim a FACT then you establish it is one or crawl back into your fanatsy and don’t risk puncturing your stupid little Balloon by bringing it out into the big wide world.
....
Which part about FACTS .. versus OPINIONS does Jay Cline not actually understand?. Do we really need to look up Hypocrisy in the dictionary? Were you serious before after all? You need simple words like that defined? Whilst there we shall see if the dictionary can help Jay Cline understand FACTS and OPINIONS. Even if we can see there is a difference, we will be making headway from the look of things.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 29, 2005 at 7:44 AM
Wolf…oops, um Jay why do you keep talking about Greek things? Rabbit saw Alexander last night, Is there some sort of GREEK fixation you are struggling with at the moment?
..
Surely you don’t think that saying Plato and Grecian makes you seem cultured or learned. Such a sophisticated thinker like Jay would know that any relevance to this discussion of Ancient or classical Greek philosophy is not sought or likely to lead to anything useful.
Stop posing and stick to learning the simple stuff,
FACTS ....sourced
Opinions…based on facts.==== Debate…^^...
Now any normal person would be expected t6o respond in a rational and sane manner at this point but Rabbit suspects we will now hear the God Squad mobile start up and go into gear.
..
What else is left?
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 29, 2005 at 7:55 AM
True, Jay Cline, that my statistics on the distribution of wealth in the nation change. But be not so analytically dumbfounded that you cannot figure out that they were not inconsistent or contradictory. One being more general (less than 1%/more than 50%) for the purpose of discussion, and one being more specific (0.25%/50%)and based on census data.
But, of course, if Jay’s analysis of the implications of this information leads him to believe in the myth of meritocracy… so be it. If it is his opinion that this state of affairs reflects the vision of our founders, then let it be… his opinion.
So allow me to contribute a bit to the discussion of “opinion” vs. what might be converged on to be objectively factual and actual. To be a bit crude, it has been said that opinions, Jay, are like assholes—Everybody has got one. Our reasons for choosing our preferences in what we “believe” or in the “positions” we take are determined by more than fact or truth. While I am sure that Jay has sufficient knowledge of the human condition to realize this, I am becoming wary of how much he may not realize about HIS own condition. Nevertheless, Jay, by all means have your opinions.
However, if one is to engage in the “pursuit of truth”, one must distinguish that from simply defending/promoting one’s “position” or
opinion or belief. Not that one can ever totally divest from the conditioning/emotions that give one juice, but these things must be compared to and held secondary ans subservient to what can be shown to be more objectively valid and factual. Even then, it takes many strokes of valid information and analysis to make a painting of a more complete picture.
My concern with you, Jay, is that it seems your juice seems invested in having your “right” position prevail… even if truth must be betrayed and sacrificed in the process. You dismiss as out of hand (over-the-top) what doesn’t fit into your well propagandized little box. I know you consider yourself an informed thinker… but it is beginning to seem that both your information and your thinking is narrowly dedicated. This is not to say it has no worth. Yet, I think much could be gained by an broadened ability to view a thing from a variety of assumed perspectives and by weighing information by standards more objective than whether or not it fits into your little box.
Posted by ljwhit on Sep 29, 2005 at 8:05 AM
Jay says:
.
just testing
html formatting
on this blog
......Rabbit thinks that is the smartest thing you have said Jay, improving are we not?
..
Oh it was temporary I can see, look at the next post…Oh dear, this is going to be a long and winding road, and it is so short if we did not have to pick up every piece of rubbish Jay finds along the way, but no the little collector in his little God fearing Heart must pick up poop.(Or is God not your special friend jay?)
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 29, 2005 at 8:05 AM
Ljwhit is an optimist if expecting a rational Jay, but hey no harm in hoping. Rabbit would bet on a hysteria based attack which will quickly reach a fever and pitch common to that breed known as God Squad. Rabbit thinks this is a God Squad in disguise, it smells very familiar. It is missing toes and a few fingers so far, going to bed but expect Jay will be metaphorically wheel chair bound by tomorrow when Rabbit looks by.
This is a good heartwarming article, feel good stuff for “liberal Bush Haters”
..
http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/?q=node/3167
..
cheers
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 29, 2005 at 8:17 AM
Well, dung appears to be as prolific as bunnies here. The only nugget of worth appears to be ljwhit’s assertion that less than 1% does not conflict with .25%.
True. But neither is fact and neither is opinion. The statistics provided are just plain wrong.
If one is to engage in the “pursuit of truth”, one must get the facts straight, regardless of whether you are talking about distribution of wealth or timeline causality.
I do not disagree that my opinions on the value of equal outcomes vs equal opportunities are in fact opinions. But your opinions are just that.
Opinions.
The fact is that a survey of 20th century success stories vs failures shows a preponderance of free market economies succeeding and command or mixed command economies failing. My conclusion is that the free market system appears to have very definitive advantages over command style economies. A central fact, a central tenet, of free market economies is that those who succeed are rewarded with the the fruits of their own labor.
Theories are evaluated on how well they explain the facts. It is a pity neither the Energizer Bunny or the witless whit seem to be able to apply their own logic to their own arguments.
Posted by Jay Cline on Sep 29, 2005 at 9:15 AM
Hypocrisy, Jay, and I think you can be simple enough to appreciate it is, to give an example, vilifying a manner of behavior/acting done by others and then pretending that the same behavior or acts (by any operable definition) are somehow noble when committed by oneself.
Typically such thinking confuses acts with motives and simply ascribes “evil” motives to the other and “honorable” motives to onself. It the the problem of double standards, Jay.
By any operable definition of the word “terrorism” the U.S. government likely qualifies as the world’s biggest terrorist organization. The most recent historical revelations about the real reasons for deciding to drop the A-bombs was to ‘terrorize’ the rest of the world, especially the Russians, and let them know that we were ‘badddd’.
Jay, this is not some football game, where all that is at stake is Horray, Horray for my team. There are larger, more significant, and more important things at stake here… for all of humanity. You don’t really buy into that black/white, good vs. evil abortion of reason, do you?
Posted by ljwhit on Sep 29, 2005 at 9:20 AM
Jay says: Well, dung appears to be as prolific as bunnies here. The only nugget of worth appears to be ljwhit
Posted by ljwhit on Sep 29, 2005 at 9:32 AM
whit,
Is it hypocrisy to go after a group of terrorists and their infrastructure and their sponsors after they murder 3000 people in cold blood?
Is it hypocrisy, in a time of war, to use a weapon, against an intransigent enemy, that kills 100,000 people but saves the lives of a million soldiers?
Is it hypocrisy to criticize the current commander-in-chief for the deaths of 1800 soldiers, but to criticize a previous C-in-C for saving 1,000,000?
Is it hypocrisy to call an act of war, such as the dropping of the A-bomb, an act of terrorism, but to assert that an act of war on our own civilian population is a legitimate expression of an aggrieved and oppressed people?
Is it hypocrisy to assert that Iran has legitimate defense interests in procuring nuclear weapons, but to call the only act of actually using them illegitimate? If the use of nuclear weapons is not legitimate, then how can Iran’s possession of nuclear weapons be anything but hypocrisy?
Posted by Jay Cline on Sep 29, 2005 at 9:57 AM
When the going gets tough, the beast merely ignores the 911 investigations. Can’t say that I blame him much though.
The point of contention that the Bush administration has used 911 as it’s modus operandi, so to speak, is well taken and pointing out the dubious nature of the facts as presented by the 911 panel is most apropos. That there exists a reasonable suspicion of a possible complicity on the part of those (figures within the U.S. hierarchy), who would stand to gain by such an event, is indeed plausible and worthy enough to base opposing views of the evangelically associated conservative agenda. But it is the direction of that argument here, the allusion to references without primary focus and the interpolation of circumstantial evidence in the supposition of blame that has allowed the beast to reduce it’s inference to minutia and further a distance from the topic.
Having had direct contact with those identified as the ones responsible for actually piloting the planes that flew into the WTC, I’ve had close interest in the investigations that have since followed. My interest was recently piqued again with the revelation of ‘Able Danger’ and the 911 commision’s indifference to it’s relevance. And now, disturbing evidence of further government cover ups as this story unfolds.
What I find particularly disturbing are reports indicating Mohammed Atta was first documented by intel as early as the year 2000. So how is it then that I knew him as a flight student in the Fall of 1997 and was suspicious immediately of his demeanor and shared my concern with associates—but stopped short of contacting the FBI. You figure someone else with higher authority would know about them.
I’m convinced that 911 was the result of an orchestrated plot involving any number of (and perhaps unlikely) players that shared a common greed. The false reasoning for taking over Iraq is bad enough, but using the 911 event as justification is just over-the-top obscene.
I’d looking forward to meaningful discussions (elsewhere) on the subject and revelations to come—pinning my hopes of discerning the truth on the individual heroic efforts of honest investigators of conscience, people such as that likes of a Daniel Ellsberg.
Welcome to Terrorland:
http://www.madcowprod.com/08232005.html
Posted by Tim Christopher on Sep 29, 2005 at 12:55 PM
After going back and rereading all the postings, I realize the comments directed at wolf and beast are being sent my way.
Apologies for not adopting a animistic token. I am just plain Jay. When I became a man, I gave up childish mannerisms.
Any comments meant for me should be so posted.
As far as ignoring 9/11 allegations on this posting, I haven’t seen any credible ones yet. Any response I might make to allegations made thus far, prior to Mr. Christopher’s latest post, has already been offered by my comments about conspiracy wingnuts. But if you can make any credible allegations without too much flourish, if you can avoid violating space-time causality, if you can get your numerical facts straight, I’d be more than happy to expound my thoughts upon them.
I ain’t afraid of no vermin.
Posted by Jay Cline on Sep 29, 2005 at 2:08 PM
In response to Mr. Christopher:
(note: if I misrepresent anything you have said, please feel free to enlighten me. Buddha happens to be one of my heroes)
<i>The point of contention that the Bush administration has used 911 as it
Posted by Jay Cline on Sep 29, 2005 at 2:25 PM
No, Jay, it is not hypocrisy to try to bring murderers to justice. It IS hypocrisy to use the fact of one crime (in which there is the possibility of government complicity) as a rationale to commit a crime of even greater magnitude against others.
It IS hypocrisy, Jay, to have a large arsenal of atomic weapons, to continue to develop nuclear technology for war, to actually be using that technology, to have been the only nation to have ever used nuclear bombs AND then to tell others that THEY have no right to have such weapons to defend themselves.
An “act of terrorism” could concievably be a legitimate expression of an aggrieved and oppressed people, I suppose (altho I never said these things). The British certainly considered the rebel colonists a bunch of terrorists. Yet, unnecessarily dropping atomic bombs on densely populated cities of an already defeated enemy for the “affect” of it would not seem to be the expression of an oppressed people. Truthfully, both acts are terrible, and sinful I reckon, but it still doesn’t seem quite like apples and apples to me. Maybe because of the dramatic difference in the scale of things.
Posted by ljwhit on Sep 29, 2005 at 3:19 PM
How was the 9-11 Commission, better referred to as the 9-11 Ommission, “hostile” to the chimp. The chimp only agreed to allow an investigation if its scope was to be restricted to “lessons learned”. And the chimp also got to hand-pick the person who would be the chairman, and heading the investigation. Let’s face it, Jay, this “investigation” was about as legit and the Warren Commission and its magical bullet. To quote the beginning of a memo from the Assistant Attorney General at that time to that commission: “THE PUBLIC MUST BE SATISFIED that Oswald was the assassin; that he did not have confederates…”
Jay, since, you have pronounced me “dead wrong” on my facts concerning the distribution of wealth. I would like to challenge you to demonstate my error but producing your “facts” on the matters and citing your sources so that I can verify that you are right. Are is that getting too real for you. My information was from recall, but were not fabricated by me, but perhaps they are wrong. Since you said so, absolutely and adamantly… let’s see what you got. This could be a learning experience for us both. I am sincere.
Posted by ljwhit on Sep 29, 2005 at 3:42 PM
Jay Cline writes : ” .. To charge Bush, Inc as the mastermind of creating a 9/11 commission (publically hostile to the mastermind) to provide
Posted by David in Canada on Sep 29, 2005 at 6:27 PM
And this thread is way off topic.
Posted by David in Canada on Sep 29, 2005 at 6:41 PM
Jay is a prime HYPOCRITE, but it is not as if anybody needs Rabbit to tell them this.
Since he talks nothing but Rubbish Rabbit is forced to throw his Rubbish out.
As I predicted he is indeed without legs today. Still fighting valiantly our black knight is but not looking good. Jay if you are Wolf, and it is well within the bounds of possibility, Rabbit will soon prove the fact. Actually you will prove it with rabbit’s help. We need not waste time on what are admitted unsubstantiated opinions, you are the GOD Sqad Wolf, or his twin brother. You can call yourself what you want, and so can Rabbit. My handle is short, accurate and honest.
Yours might be one or all of these things if we knew what it was. Not that I care to be honest. You are what you say around here and we can see you clearer all the time.
Now for Jay’s Rubbish. His paltry pack of pickled puke cast up in lieu of actual debate.
....
“Is it hypocrisy to go after a group of terrorists and their infrastructure and their sponsors after they murder 3000 people in cold blood?”
............No Jay that sounds OK. Do you have a group of terrorists who ‘you know’ murdered 3000 people in mind? The closest known event is still being investigated and there is a chance that a US government sponsored group did do such a thing recently. Once those investigations reach a satisfactory, ie: evidence based: conclusion Rabbit certainly hopes that the spomsors and perpetrators are “Gone After”
......A similar question Jay, is it not Hypocrisy to attack a whole nation of people who never did or even said anything against America, illegally and defying Geneva conventions as well as International Resolutions about Banned Weapoms of War? Then to turn around and claim such moral high ground that one’s OWN WORD should be sacrosanct and ample proof of anything, even if volumes of evidence say otherwise? Doews this fit into any category of Hypocrisy for Jay, the eminent Man who does not PLAY KIDS GAMES.
Is it hypocrisy, in a time of war, to use a weapon, against an intransigent enemy, that kills 100,000 people but saves the lives of a million soldiers?
Is it hypocrisy to criticize the current commander-in-chief for the deaths of 1800 soldiers, but to criticize a previous C-in-C for saving 1,000,000?
Is it hypocrisy to call an act of war, such as the dropping of the A-bomb, an act of terrorism, but to assert that an act of war on our own civilian population is a legitimate expression of an aggrieved and oppressed people?
.........Not at all Jay, what good are such Rhetoric Questions to you? You are reaching for a life-buoy and grabbed a brick there son.
Once the ACTUAL perpetrators and Sponsors of 911 are KNOWN Grief and expression will at least have a valid target. ...........In the mean time my dimwitted morsel of manhood, (perhaps an old foreskin), those investigations are being seriously hampered even blocked by the US government and it’s agencies. That is a FACT, and it is yet another FACT in an increasing list of FACTS presented as such by Rabbit to you, and as yet not challenged. Spouting unqualiified opinions is not a challenge to sourced FACTS Jay. Try and keep up here Idiot, you are not debating, just rolling around on the floor waving your arms, and you might as well forget those legs, they won’t go back on.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 29, 2005 at 6:48 PM
Is it hypocrisy to assert that Iran has legitimate defense interests in procuring nuclear weapons,
......No that is the truth Jay, they have legitimate defence interests due to aggression and threats of aggression from USA and Israel. It is indeed hypocrisy for America to claim moral superiority, once the fact of the Atom Bombs use, the actual motives and lack of NEED, is known. Like today for instance.
Using them at the time seemed fair and reasonable to MOST Americans and that was not Hypocritical. In this place the Hypocrites came a couple of generations later. YOU Jay.
....
Jay you are not ready to comprehend this but Iran does not Scare rabbit in the least if it should aquire a few Nuclear weapons. The Iranians can be relied upon to show more humanity and consideration of the consequences of their actions than the two powers with Lots of Nuclear Weapons which Scare a majority of the World’s people. USA and Israel. The rest are all pretty sane and Rational. You are in no position to question that. It is an Objective view point from outside the scenario, as a part of the rest of the world so to speak. You as an American Jay cannot as a subject actually challenge Rabbit’s assertion in this case. What’s the bet th irony will be lost on the clown?
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 29, 2005 at 6:48 PM
But a final comment on 9/11 if I may.
You will ask for facts and evidence. I don’t know what happened. Deciding what is true and what is false is very difficult. Who knows what really happened? I don’t think we will ever truly know. It will fade into the realm of ” how many angels can dance on the head of a pin? “.
Posted by David in Canada on Sep 29, 2005 at 6:51 PM
I was just going to post something innocuous just to be able to get e-mails and follow this conversation, but I have to get in my $0.02.
Just plain Jay says:
“Is it hypocrisy to go after a group of terrorists and their infrastructure and their sponsors after they murder 3000 people in cold blood?”
No. But it is if you intentionally go after the wrong group of terrorists. Questions have been raised which Jay dismisses without addressing the concomitant facts of reference. Not hypocrisy, just intellectual laziness.
” Is it hypocrisy, in a time of war, to use a weapon, against an intransigent enemy, that kills 100,000 people but saves the lives of a million soldiers?”
It is if you say that is the reason for using that weapon, but the actual reason was otherwise. Especially if the stated reason can be shown to be false, which is indicated by the available evidence.
“Is it hypocrisy to criticize the current commander-in-chief for the deaths of 1800 soldiers, but to criticize a previous C-in-C for saving 1,000,000?”
Not equivalent. First case criticizing CIC for lying causing deaths. Second criticism for lying about saving 1M. Criticizing both CICs for lying, decidedly not hypocritical. Consciously promulgating false analogies is intrinsically hypocritical.
” Is it hypocrisy to call an act of war, such as the dropping of the A-bomb, an act of terrorism, but to assert that an act of war on our own civilian population is a legitimate expression of an aggrieved and oppressed people?” If anyone here were actually arguing that you would be correct.
Careful reading shows that no one is seeking to legitimize the 911 attacks, but rather seeking an empirical and objective understanding of their cause. If someone pokes you in the nose because you insult him, the facts legitimize neither him/her striking you nor your insults. To deny the insult is hypocrisy.
“Is it hypocrisy to assert that Iran has legitimate defense interests in procuring nuclear weapons, but to call the only act of actually using them illegitimate? If the use of nuclear weapons is not legitimate, then how can Iran
Posted by luminous beauty on Sep 29, 2005 at 6:52 PM
David the thread is not so far off topic if we keep remebering we are examing the modus operandi of the God Squad. See this Jay, he is performing like a trouper, totally unprovable set of standard program ideas nad not a skerrick of actual Facts so far to back anything up. It is a completely faith based argument he is presenting and with a little patience and practice we can run this goat across the stage in all his finery and use him as a study in Faith Based Reasoning….... (What a Beautiful Oxymoron).
We are actually “RECKONING WITH THE GOD SQUAD”, which is the very topic in which we are engaged. Trust Rabbit. Even if it is not what Rabbit thinks, it is similar and we can use it.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 29, 2005 at 6:57 PM
Missed these Jay and they are such pearls they should not go unnoticed.
“Is it hypocrisy, in a time of war, to use a weapon, against an intransigent enemy, that kills 100,000 people but saves the lives of a million soldiers?
.......
Do you know of such a situation? Are you inferring that the “Accidental” murder of 150,000 (Is closer to truth) people in Iraq “So Far” has saved a Million Soldiers?
Can Jay add up? Are you on something Jay?
The troop numbers in Iraq have not been above 150,000 as far a Rabbit knows. Are you seriously convinced in your little dark cellar of a mind that all of these troops and another 6 times that number were likely to die in Iraq if those 150,000 “So Far” Iraq civilians had not died? Actually we need to calculate the future disease and Birth deformities etc which will plague Iraq forever now thanks to the means by which those deaths have occurred. Depleted Uranium!!!!
.....
.....
.....
PEOPLE…........What can Rabbit say?...It is not possible for Rabbit to express himself on a Public Forum, with his emotions unchecked. ....Discussing, actually having to debate the the horror, with self righteous C**TS like this is sometimews enough to send even Rabbit’s blood pressure through the roof.
..
One of these days Rabbit is going to put on his best “Anger and Loathing Face” take a picture and post it somewhere so it can be linked to in place of wholly inadequate words of outrage…........GRRRRR!
“Is it hypocrisy to criticize the current commander-in-chief for the deaths of 1800 soldiers, but to criticize a previous C-in-C for saving 1,000,000?”
....
The actual Death Toll of American Troops is long since in excess of 2000, Jay the FACT is it crossed the 2000 mark a month or more ago, officially. Since then all public discussion of the numbers, including on sites such as this, has remained hovering around the 1800-1900 level. ..............Has nobody else noticed this? It is quite weird to see, because even a rough estimate shows we cannot have been around the 1900 mark for more than a month. That does not of course include the deaths of service personell who die after leaving Iraq on the way to Germany. The actual US deaths are closer to 6, 000 by best estimates. The deaths of Non-american soldiers, ie South American Mercenaries and Mercs from all over, this is the biggest collection of mercenaries seen in a modern War thinks Rabbit, just a guess, but looks like it. Their deaths are not reported.
As for whatever previous Presidents you now want to discuss, get real Jay.
..
We don’t want to talk about Ancient Greek Philosophy, Buddha (Who is not a Hero, he was a shining one is all) or any other president than the one of the moment, unless it’s relevant.
What would be relevant would be an actual relevant FACT presented with a source from you, JAY…......
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 29, 2005 at 7:24 PM
Today in America the best paid one-fifth of the population receives about one half of all national income, while the bottom one-fifth receives less than 4 per cent. The distribution of wealth in America is even more unbalanced. Here, the top one-half per cent of all property owners control over 25% of all wealth; while the top 5% sit on nearly 70% of wealth and property.
Behind this skewed distribution of wealth and income stand a few giant corporations who own or control nearly all newspapers, television networks and radio stations, movie companies, book publishers, and other sources of information and means of communication. Both of America’s major political parties, the Republicans and the Democrats, are dependent on these corporations and the few super-rich individuals and families associated with them. In fact, nearly all major offices in the US government, whether elected or appointed, are filled by individuals from this corporate network.
What chance does democracy have under such conditions? What chance does a true free market have under such conditons? Mussolini once said that fascism would better be called “corporatism” since it was the combined control of an authoritarian government and “business” leadership. We are talking here, Jay, not of servants of the people, but of masters. Few are aware of or can remember how in the 1930s so many Americans viewed economic fascism as the wave of the future, and a version of this “planned capitalism” still prevails today, primary for the benefit of large established corporations.
Just more grist for the mill, Jay.
Posted by ljwhit on Sep 29, 2005 at 7:36 PM
JAY CLINE says:
“Still, conclusions without facts is a no-no, per our furry moderator.“since you have gotten the idea here”
..
Excellent, you have almost got it, it is close and we’ll run with it Jay.
..Now the second half of the idea, (odd Rabbit did not realise it could be split, like the atom I guess) FACTS need to be established via SOURCES if they are challenged.
Rabbit dares to speak on behalf of many when he challenges all your facts. All of the things you wish to say are facts, ARE NOT. PROVE IT, or SHOVE IT…..
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 29, 2005 at 8:22 PM
ljwhit,
Are you saying it is a crime to pursue al Qaeda? How so? Is it a crime to arrest criminals? Do not police employ force to arrest criminals? Do we arrest the police for breaking and entering when executing an arrest warrant? And to answer the inevitable question, yes, I see America as the de facto world police. If not us, then who? If not now, when?
So, it is hypocrisy to attempt to prevent nuclear proliferation? Just because we have them, so must everyone else? It’d be great if we could put the genie in the bottle. Stupidity and suicide are greater sins than hypocrisy.
Terrorism is never legitimate. Terrorist are not freedom fighters, or vis versa. Acts of terrorism are acts of terrorism.
How could the American colonists be considered terrorism? What act did they perform that was terrorism?
Japan was far from defeated. Japan was digging in; recently declassified radio intercepts confirm that. They also show Germany was shipping nuclear materials via submarine to Japan so they could build a radiological device, a dirty nuclear bomb. Is your argument dependent on Japan being already defeated, or does your logic stand even with an intransigent enemy? And if it does, what should Truman have done?
And to the morality of an unequal distribution of wealth, I have already made the argument that the 20th century success stories were by and large democratic and free market solutions.
On a more personal note: Abraham Lincoln was born in very modest surroundings and became one of our most famous presidents; Mark Twain (born a poor Samuel Clemens) became one of America’s most beloved and honored humorists; Paul Allen was born to a middle class family whose father worked at a library and has since become one of the richest men in the world; Steven Jobs’ father was a Syrian-American professor and founded Apple Computer; John D. Rockerfeller started modestly and got rich in oil and founded the Rockerfeller dynasty; J.P Morgan started with a silver spoon in his mouth and soon far eclipsed his father; John Jacob Astor was born to a butcher in Germany and made a fortune in the fur trade; Benjamin Franklin was the son of a candle maker and became one of America’s most highly honored founding fathers; Frank Lloyd Wright grew up in a Wisconsin farming town and became the most famous architect of our time; Henry H. Rogers’ father was a small-town grocer and made a fortune in oil after pooling $600 of his own cash with a partner into an oil refinery, making $30,000 in their first year; Horatio Alger epitomized and memorialized the American rags-to-riches story.
I think American democracy and American market economics have more than proven their chances.
And that is what is called cold hard facts.
Posted by Jay Cline on Sep 29, 2005 at 8:43 PM
Rabbit,
Put up or shut up.
Your shrieking calls for facts belay the fact that the facts you present are mere opinions and you have yet to provide facts.
Bite me, you overgrown rodent.
Posted by Jay Cline on Sep 29, 2005 at 8:46 PM
David,
Thank you for clarifying that is your opinion. Too many people here are presenting their conclusions as facts. For example, the continued repetition that 9/11 was orchestrated by high level US officials without providing a shred of evidence. With regard to your opinion, I believe you are wrong and will continue to believe that until you provided substantive evidence to the contrary. But, just because our opinions differ, does not put are beliefs on an equal basis. You must provide the facts proving U.S. involvement in 9/11. As Lincoln once said, I cannot prove a negative. That is illogical.
Posted by Jay Cline on Sep 29, 2005 at 8:47 PM
David,
Correction. That should read,
does not put our beliefs on an equal basis.
Posted by Jay Cline on Sep 29, 2005 at 8:48 PM
LB,
LB,
If we are going after the wrong group of terrorists, then who are the right ones. Again, the only argument being made here is with references to facts without actually providing them.
Thank you for the conditional agreement on dropping the bombs on Japan. When evidence is presented that this was not the case, I’ll address it.
I disagree about your Careful analysis comment. ljwhit used the A-bomb reference to argue against the morality of American actions in the Middle East after 9/11 and bunny face has argued that America has no legitimate reason for accusing Middle East terrorists for 9/11 or for attacking Iraq. Bunny face has explicitly argued that Middle East hatred legitimatizes the act. It doesn’t take careful reading. Just a basic ability to read English.
Legitimacy is at the core of the argument and has been invoked on both sides of the argument here.
And I do not hear the whisper. Your argument implies that if it is ok for cops to carry guns, then why can’t criminals. No hypocrisy there.
Posted by Jay Cline on Sep 29, 2005 at 8:50 PM
To all,
I apologize for my crude remarks to the Rabbit. But as Bill Moyers has said here,
bullies cannot be appeased. they must be confronted
Posted by Jay Cline on Sep 29, 2005 at 8:51 PM
What the heck just happened?.........
Testing?
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 29, 2005 at 9:31 PM
Jay, Did you blow a fuse or something?
What the heck just happened? David?
Ljwhit?
Jay why can’t you just behave like a sensible perosn and debate?
.
.You can get the hang of it, Facts supported by Sources…Justify your opinions.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 29, 2005 at 9:33 PM
I am here. Just catching up on the thread.
Collecting my thoughts.
Luminous Beauty is Gloriously Bright.
Posted by David in Canada on Sep 29, 2005 at 9:37 PM
.. is it IJWHIT or LJWHIT? l and I look the same in the font being used.
Posted by David in Canada on Sep 29, 2005 at 9:44 PM
Now that you mention it David, it is a lousy font, and it isthis and the format which authors much of Rabbit’s efforts to…....
.
—-Communicate clearly.
..
Whit it is then.
Unless we are put to rights by the trully enlightened Whit.
.
Now what happened to the thread?
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 29, 2005 at 10:02 PM
Jay all of your remarks have been CRUDE in any normal meaning of the word, which specific words are you now refferring to?
..
Nobody else here thinks you are worth taking seriously or deserving of politeness at this point either suspects Rabbit, so don’t assume because Rabbit is taking the most Bites out of you, others could care less how you carry on at this point we are ready for anything…......
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 29, 2005 at 10:05 PM
Jay, I can’t provide you with any facts or substantive evidence since I am not a member on the 9/11 Commission or any other organization that investigated the matter. I can examine the evidence, circumstantial and direct, presented by both the official investigation and the evidence, circumstantial and direct, presented by independent investigators. Some evidence is credible and some is not.
Don’t you have any doubts at all about any of the official story of 9/11?
Is in not possible that there is a coverup?
Posted by David in Canada on Sep 29, 2005 at 10:08 PM
Jay, have you examined the evidence that independant investigators have presented?
Or do you just not consider it out of hand?
Don’t you think that there are some questions that the 9/11 commission convenienlty ignored in their investigation?
Posted by David in Canada on Sep 29, 2005 at 10:16 PM
Ah…Now I see. If Rabbit seemied a bit confused the posts on this page it is because the whole early thread suddenly dissapeaderd from one refresh to the next, Rabbit thought Jay had said something over the top and had the thread pulled or something.
Now I can see his rambling LIES in all their nakedness.
You lost your arms too, nothing anybody needs to do to prove you an idiot Jay Boy.
If we are going after the wrong group of terrorists, then who are the right ones. Again, the only argument being made here is with references to facts without actually providing them.
....
NO NO NO you damned fool, you are destroying whole countries in the name of some half assed ideas about who might actually have had anything to do with them. We are attacking an innocent party to any IMAGINARY bogey men you care to come up with.
You have been given FACTS presented with Sources and what have you got? NOthing so don’t come roundtalking about things of which you know nothing.
Where are any actual sources for all your grand facts?
You have been presented with FACTS by others who have not gone to the trouble to source them yet but they can and will if you ask.
When does Jay stop pretending to be a man and actually “PUT UP”..... You are a supreme numbskull and a craven coward, you have proven nothing but your own lack of clues.
Others can mess about with your little half assed opinions you call Facts, but Rabbit waits for a single reference to anything which shows you are anything but a pitiful boastful worm at heart…YOU grubby thing, you look more wormlike and slimy as you duck and dive from every straight request. You like to sling insults too but just can’t seem to get it up today, so how about saying some FACT proves any opinion you care to name and prove your damned FACT…........
...
Does this dimwit even understand that what makes a FACT, a FACT is the FACT that it can be proven?..
...
He doesn’t get it does he?
Thank you for the conditional agreement on dropping the bombs on Japan. When evidence is presented that this was not the case, I
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 29, 2005 at 10:25 PM
Sorry some of that JAY crap came out as Rabbit’s words they are not. So just to deal with them.
.
“disagree about your Careful analysis comment. ljwhit used the A-bomb reference to argue against the morality of American actions in the Middle East after 9/11”...
..
WHAT?
——-“and bunny face has argued that America has no legitimate reason for accusing Middle East terrorists for 9/11 or for attacking Iraq.
.
Bunny FAce?....Jay is a poobum!
—-“Bunny face has explicitly argued that Middle East hatred legitimatizes the act.”
..
You bloody lunatic…........Bunny Face has not explicitly argued any such thing, you…you…nincompoop!
——“It doesn
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 29, 2005 at 10:35 PM
David,
You are a gentleman. I apologize if you got caught in the line of fire during my moment of pique.
There would be three points I would bring up in response to your questions:
First, I would not characterize the 9/11 Commission as the “Official” investigation, but only in the sense that it gives the Commission authoritative status that they did not live up to. Yes, it sounds like hair splitting, but it is a difference that makes a difference. And I personally so love splitting hairs.
The Administration, the Executive Branch, certainly disagreed with much of what was criticized, left out and recommended by the report; the Legislative Branch was, and still is, of many minds about the subject. The fact that one Commission member was intimately involved in pre 9/11 decisions (Jamie Gorelick) and did not recuse herself is troubling and casts doubt, in my mind and in light of subsequent revelations that I will discuss shortly, of the veracity and integrity of the investigation.
Second, the Commission was made up of equal representation from both political parties. I do not begrudge the very successful efforts the Commission made in remaining nonpartisan, but I fear that the conflicting priorities of investigation and politics rendered the Commission impotent. It is certainly telling that very little new information came out of the report. At best, it was a compilation of what was already known and what had already been agreed upon on what needed to be done. Everybody got something, but ultimately nobody really got anything of substance.
Third, the fact that the successes of the data mining operation of Able Danger and information about Iran’s support role in the operation were available to the Commission, and not used, deeply troubles me. One of the most scathing criticisms from the Commission was that the mindset of the intel community allowed critical information to be discounted and ignored simply because the information didn’t fit the world view of most intelligence people. The facts didn’t fit the prevailing theories so the facts were ignored. Unfortunately, this is where the Commission fails on two critical points. They saved their harshest criticism for the only actors in the play who had no political clout, and the Commission themselves are guilty of the same sins of fitting facts to theories.
The Commission discounted intel, that was widely available before the Commission started, of the links between al Qaeda and Saddam. This information has never been properly refuted and the Czech government who reported it have not wavered from their initial reports. The Commission completely ignored any intel that pointed a finger at Iran providing transportation and logistic support, including 15 of the 19 hijackers who served as muscle men, taking over the aircrafts so Atta and his pilots could fly the planes.
My take on this (that means opinion to anyone who can’t tell the difference) is this was all political. Many people are afraid that Bush will rush America into attacking another country (Syria, Iran, North Korea are prime candidates) and the Commission didn’t want to give Bush the rhetoric ammo he would need to push for such an event.
Having said that, I generally do agree and accept what the Commission report says. They just didn’t say enough.
Posted by Jay Cline on Sep 30, 2005 at 8:03 AM
Jay you are an idiot and you don’t deserve any respect, suck up to folks all you want, you are not winning any ground and you are a coward as well as a dunce with no facts.
Your entire last post is a load of speculative, innacurate generalised and totally unsupported garbage. There is not even anything worth responding to. Not a single claim of a Fact and as usual just your opinions dressed up in a hat which says FACT.
You are a credit to nothing, thank God Bush has only got Brain dead twerps like you to back him.
Did you not hear yet that the 19 alleged hijackers were not real, and Rabbit has gioven sevral sources for the fact.
So without sources for your claims you are just lying. Seven are alive and well, how does that permit of them being suicide terrorists?
Not the sort of detail you would let get in the way of a good lie though eh?
Where do you get the “theory” that anybody acted as muscle men to help take over any planes? are you psychotic? do you have dreams which reveal these things to you? A special frog who only you can see maybe?
What basis do you use to conclude that any terrorists actually took over any planes on 911? Rabbit asks because he has never ever seen or heard of any.
David and others please do not lower yourselves by allowing this idiot to keep on spinning his faith based crap, he is making fools of anybody who takes him seriously, Rabbit is off to bed, but will be dissappointed with any who allow this ridiculous fool to keep pretending his word gives credence to anything without sources when he is specifically being asked to prove his alleged facts.
We have heard this bleating before, well it’s time these clowns were made to follow the same rules of logic and reason as we expect of each other. If he has nothing buit opinions with no provable Facts of substance thenm treat the little weasel with the contempt he desrves.
To do less is contemptible of itself and only encourages the creep.
He actually thinks he’s getting his “message” through to you, and he has the temerity to ignore structured and sourced debate, calling it stupid with a flick of his omniscient wrist.
Then for an encore Jay spouts self contradictory opinions and says see the perfect argument I have created, are you stupid Liberals not impressed with my superior reasoning sklills. Jays FACTS are so perfect that evrybody knows them and they don’t need proof.
You are a TWAT Jay and contemptible. You are welcome to your opinions but you have only got the opinions you have been given by others. No reason at all.
You are pregnant but it isn’t your baby, you are just a surrogate for Dubya and the Devil.
A mind whore….............................................................With the Pox.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 30, 2005 at 10:02 AM
By the way Jay stop preening. You keep going on about some supposedly insulting remarks you made to Rabbit, as if you did. Rabbit never noticed anything and cannot help but wonder what you seem so proud of. Doubt anybody else noticed anthing special, everything you have said has been pitiful honestly and if anybody is insulted by your poncing and prancing, it is your mother. If you had any worth you would be devaluing your self too but it probably isn’t an issue.
So relax little one, you have neither annoyed or insulted Rabbit.
Rabbit is not sorry that you find him so aggravating though because Rabbit can see you are a piece of muck and need to be scraped off the floor, just for the tidiness factor.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 30, 2005 at 10:10 AM
Jay writes : ” David, You are a gentleman. I apologize if you got caught in the line of fire during my moment of pique. “
Thank you for the compliment, I do try to be a gentleman. No apology required, getting caught in the line of fire comes with the territory, but thank you for the consideration.
Please do not take my criticism too harshly but the points you raised, while cogent, are relatively unimportant compared to the larger issue of prior knowledge, within the USA government, of the 9/11 attacks.
Some observations and questions I have about the events of 9/11 and the investigation of the same are as follows :
There is evidence of airline stock transactions that preceded the 9/11 attacks that would strongly suggest prior knowledge of the impending attacks. Was Osama bin Laden responsible for the huge spike in “put options” on airline stocks preceding 9/11? Or someone else?
On the morning of 9/11 there were several US war games in operation. Some were simulations of plane hijackings. These drills paralyzed the response of the Air Force, FAA, NORAD, etc. Was Osama bin Laden coordinating these war games and drills, and subsequent stand down, as a cover for the hijackings on the morning of 9/11? Or someone else?
The World Trade Center Twin Towers and adjacent building no.7 collapsed on 9/11 in a manner which, based on scientific facts, refutes the “official theory” of the collapses and suggests the collapses were likely the result of controlled demolitions. Was Osama bin Laden capable of arranging for a controlled demolition to collapse those buildings on 9/11? Or someone else?
Posted by David in Canada on Sep 30, 2005 at 10:43 AM
Jay writes:
“If we are going after the wrong group of terrorists, then who are the right ones. Again, the only argument being made here is with references to facts without actually providing them.”
You might consider reading the links that GhostRabbit has so generously provided. These are the references to facts to which you are stubbornly oblivious.
” Thank you for the conditional agreement on dropping the bombs on Japan. When evidence is presented that this was not the case, I
Posted by luminous beauty on Sep 30, 2005 at 11:12 AM
“Legitimacy is at the core of the argument and has been invoked on both sides of the argument here.”
It isn’t but you would like it to be. You cannot dictate terms nor their meanings or interpretations in an open debate. These things must be negotiated in an atmosphere of intellectual honesty. A concept you have shown no evidence of comprehending. Nor have you shown any familiarity with the rigors of logical thought. Just a propensity for tossing out spurious rhetoric and an unerring habit of avoidance when someone calls you on it.
“And I do not hear the whisper. Your argument implies that if it is ok for cops to carry guns, then why can
Posted by luminous beauty on Sep 30, 2005 at 11:12 AM
Rabbit has already posted sources for who was doing the trading prior to 911.
Rabbit thinks you are giving this dimwitted one too much rope, he will only get tangled up in more rope, best to keep him on a short leash and then he can’t start running all over the place.
Lastly, make him source his FACTS. He is not worthy of respect if he continues to avoid sourcing. He thinks he is GOD and letting him say anything without sourcing is encouraging this belief. HE is a fantasist.
Sorry David, but this one disgusts Rabbit more than most for some reason. He is a Pox.
Good night again.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 30, 2005 at 11:39 AM
Luminous and lovely one, bless your heart. Rabbit can sleep in peace now.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 30, 2005 at 11:42 AM
Good point, Rabbit. (Boy this thread has GROWN since last I posted.. it’s enormous!)
I expect we’re all “in the thick” of things now.
I never used to want to say, Rab, where I came from, except that I wasn’t American, because there used to be some awful, quite sinister trolls on this site…
But the worst seem to have gone now - along with some of my old friends on here!
OK then: I hail from the British Isles… but have no British ancestry!
Posted by Liz on Sep 30, 2005 at 11:45 AM
Doesn’t Pat Robertson look evil, by the way?
I’m gonna post that pic on a Christian blog…
Posted by Liz on Sep 30, 2005 at 11:55 AM
Rabbit, you’re getting too excited on this thread - and don’t bite people’s limbs off!! Otherwise, the only rabbit you’re going to end up being like is General Woundwort - a case of our becoming what we hate the most.
Posted by Liz on Sep 30, 2005 at 11:56 AM
Okay, Rabbit, etc…. WHIT it is then…
Jay, here is my opinion of you, at this point: To your resentment-filled little ego this is but a desperate game. You like all the attention and you take sadistic little pleasures in fucking with people whose ideas threaten and anger you. Maybe because that’s the best you’ve got. I dunno, but you seem to have little integrity and a much contracted mind when it comes to objectively pursuing the truth. ‘Not to say that you are automatically or necessarily wrong, just that you have a lot of avoidance to going places where your bullshit might not hold up. Wake up, Jay; being “right” is a game of the self-righteous ego hiding its pain, fear, and anger/hatred. This is not pleasing to God… Many will go before Him crying My God, My God, and He will not know them. While, in your imagination, Jay, you may seem to prevail… you get only to be “dead” right. Only the truth can set you free, and give you radiant life.
Again, Jay, about the stats on distribution of wealth: I asked that you provide me with your stat info and cite the sources for checking. I have not seen a straightforward response to that suggestion. I was unable to retrieve the article from which I had gotten my original info regarding “financial” wealth (0.25% / 50%); However, I did go online and research the matter again… and that accounts for the recent update/change in info. In fact, the best info sources I could find seemed to converge on this overview: the top 1% has 1/3 of the wealth in the country, the next highest 9% have another 1/3, and the bottom 90% get to fight over the remaining 1/3. If this picture is to you proof of how well our current corrupt syste (not a real free market) works, then it is my opinion that you should pull your head out of the dark place. My opinion: We all do better, when we All do better. You may be busy clutching you little piece of the pie and feeling superior because there are a lot of poor bastards who have done less-well than you. I have a vision for a harmonious world where obsolete forms of the struggle for survival are not deliberately perpetuated in service of the greedy.
Let’s get it straight, Jay, I’m not trying to bullshit you here, I’m trying to get real. And you seem to be being a real shithead about it, constantly using the diversion of quibbling about trivia but avoiding getting real about the issues. You strain out the fly, Jay, but swallow the camel.
About the events of 9-11 and related matters: If you are open to learning new information what you seem not yet to know, regardless of how you might in the end evaluate it, let me suggest to you for starters some books (and they are well referenced and chock-full of citations for sources… so you could check out the info):
“On Bullshit” by Harry Frankfurt
“The War on Freedom” by Nafeez Mosaddeq Ahmed
“The New Pearl Harbor” by David Ray Griffin
“Inside Job” by Jim Marrs
“Crossing the Rubicon” by Michael Ruppert
Now Mike Ruppert is the guy that you will just want to go crazy trying to scream away as a conspiracy nut. Only… only he has been very meticulous about doing his homework, J… his book is very well referenced.
Each of these books, J, has some difference… in emphasis, in info (possibly even some contradictions), etc… but they essentially converge on the point that in your great faith-based, unreferenced wisdom you want to avoid, that shatters the hub of all your spin,...the possibility that our nation was conned by 9-11 and that the greedy bastards who own our government are more ruthless and callous than will allow you your gibberish-filled slumber.
Posted by ljwhit on Sep 30, 2005 at 12:03 PM
Jay;
As a courtesy I have copied a list of references made by GhostRabbit to support his arguments. I don’t expect you to have the perspicacity to go back and try and understand the precise nature of his contentions and how he uses these references as support. Just read the reports. It is the only text thus far established as a factual basis of argument. When and if you deign to provide some putatively authoritative reference of your own to back up your assertions then some debate over whose facts are most cogent can proceed as anything other than a dick-wagging contest.
....http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/september2004/12090 04stillinsists.htm
..
...http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/march2005/210305real lidentity.htm
..
...http://prisonplanet.com/seven_of_the_wtc_hijackers_found_ _alive.html. http:/
...
/www.prisonplanet.com/saudis_paid_bin_laden_200m.html
...
...http://www.prisonplanet.com/new_revelations_on_911.htm
..
...http://prisonplanet.com/bush_senior_in_business_with_bin_ _laden.html
...
...http://www.prisonplanet.com/
the_bush_bin_laden_money_conn nection.html
..
.......http://prisonplanet.com/profits_of_death_insider_trad ding_and_9_11.html
..
... http://prisonplanet.com/profits_of_death_part_2_trading_with h_the_enemy.html
..
...http://prisonplanet.com/profits_of_death_part_3.html
..
....http://prisonplanet.com/suppresed_details_insider_tradin ng_cia.html
..
....http://prisonplanet.com/weve_hit_the_targets.html
..
...http://www.prisonplanet.com/prior_knowledge_of_sept_11_no ot_just_urban_legend.htm
Posted by luminous beauty on Sep 30, 2005 at 12:13 PM
Good one WHIT;
Will it inspire our good troll to actually do a little research rather than spout truisms and conventional opinion. I rather doubt it.
Posted by luminous beauty on Sep 30, 2005 at 12:28 PM
David,
My gut reaction to your observations is that the first two, without knowing more detail, could very easily be and, in the absence of any substantive evidence, very probably is coincidence. But one would have to gather info on the history of such events and do some statistical comparison. Can you give me a little more detail or reference points for further research, especially on the stock options? Skepticism does not equate to closed-mindedness.
Having spent time in the military and participating in too many alerts and exercises, I can only say I do not find it surprising that at any given moment in time there is a military exercise going on somewhere. But that is not meant to be a repudiation of your question. I just don’t find the coincidence too incredible. Many battles have been lost or won on such circumstances.
The military has been engaged in terrorist simulations since at least the early 80s, when I was in the service. And in the late 90s, intel did manage to catch wind of al Qaeda planning to hijack about a dozen aircraft simultaneously. If there is one thing the military is, is they are conservative and love war games. It is not surprising that the military developed such scenerios and wargamed them to death. But, it is a remarkable coincidence.
The controlled demolition theory I have heard and have summarily dismissed as not only lacking in any evidence whatsoever, but also the assertion that scientific facts refutes the official theory of the collapse is baseless. What specifically do you believe, or have you heard, that just couldn’t have happened the way it happened?
Briefly, the bombing of the WTC in 1993 showed that even a single large explosion, one large enough to dig a whole several stories deep, was not enough to even do much, if any, structural damage to the building. So, it would require a controlled sequence of explosions, similar to legitimate modern demolitions that we have all seen.
Not only did the numerous video from the collapse show no signs of sequenced, staged, percussive explosions, but the science required for both buildings to collapse from the top down is not outrageous. The intense heat of the resulting jet fuel fires has been demonstrated as being sufficient to soften the steel supports at altitude. Once the top 20 or 40 stories started to drop, the kinetic energy of their falling overcame the structural resistance at each level. Each floor added to that energy, resulting in the collapse.
One argument I have heard repeated over and over is that as the building collapsed, it was remarkable that the buildings didn’t tip over. Actually, it isn’t so remarkable. The buildings collapsed from the top down, not from the bottom up. As each floor collapsed the building shrank. There was never much torque one way or another to tip the building over. But, watch the video. It didn’t come straight down. There was tippage. Adjacent buildings were damaged, far more than would be allowed for normal demolitions.
The telling point for me on this is that as the building collapsed, you don’t see windows blowing out, floor by floor, that you would expect to see with controlled demolitions.
But, if you have other info, I’d be happy to hear about it.
Posted by Jay Cline on Sep 30, 2005 at 12:29 PM
Luminous Beauty is luminous indeed… and a beauty.
J has managed to frustrate you too. He must have great slurping pleasure… sooo much attention. But to suggest that J is in a dick-wagging contest. No! This passive-aggressive character is dickless in his heart, mind, and soul. He can wag only his tongue.
Posted by ljwhit on Sep 30, 2005 at 12:30 PM
prisonplanet.com
give me a break.
Next thing they’ll be saying is that the Indian Ocean Tsunami was a deliberate act of war using massive weather machines.
Oh, wait. They are already saying that.
Silly me.
Posted by Jay Cline on Sep 30, 2005 at 12:30 PM
lb,
“Japan was probably prepared to surrender on conditional terms-but the United States would accept only unconditional surrender.”
Probably? If I use the word probably, would you believe me? Japan was probably stalling, hoping the Americans would lose their resolve and turn tail and run.
I am not saying it is true. But it probably is as true as what you claim.
Those same intercepts clearly show Japan was digging in for a final victory or death struggle.
Read that and weep.
Posted by Jay Cline on Sep 30, 2005 at 12:34 PM
whit,
Thanks for doing your homework. Your statitics now match the statistics that I provided a couple days ago.
Question. Seriously. At what level do you believe those statisics wuld be reasonably equitable?
Posted by Jay Cline on Sep 30, 2005 at 12:38 PM
SAVE 53% OFFTHE NEWSSTAND PRICE!
Reader Comments
I object to Moyers’ assertion… “The radical religious right has succeeded in taking over one of America
” What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans, and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty and democracy? ” - Mahatma Ghandi
Hi Dave,
Hi whattheheck
You wrote :
“There are things worth dying for and even things worth killing for.”
My response would be, if I can quote Ghandi again :
“Nonviolence is the first article of my creed. It is also the last article of my creed”
The thing worth dying for (for me) is : not killing.
When liberty is delivered and enforced by violence hasn’t liberty taken the first steps to totalitarianism?
Bill Moyers wrote :
” Bullies-political bullies, economic bullies and religious bullies-cannot be appeased; they have to be opposed with a stubbornness to match their own. ”
And he is right. Evil men who would manipulate and exploit people’s beliefs into violence and hatred against “the others” should be opposed. But that opposition should not be more violence and hatred.
” An eye for an eye and the whole world goes blind ” Mahatma Ghandi
or
” Blessed are the peacemakers: for they will be called sons of God ” Jesus Christ (Matthew 5:9)
“
Rabbit is going to say his opinion here and it is given in deference to no-one.
Rabbit comes from a Mormon Family. Mum and Dad, Sister and her family, they are all totally committed to their faith. Rabbit was at one time a member and is an Elder, though ex-communicate. Rabbit lives not far from his Mormon Family. Rabbit knows something about fundamentalist Christians.
They are if anything as insane and irrational and bloodthirsty as the most fundamentalist Muslim or Jew. Despite being Rabbit’s mother and Sister they can see nothing past their own long term and complete blindness to all reality. They are always right, they know it and you either do to or you are a “Pitiful” poor lost soul, or an evil blood soaked satanist.
They answer words of love and peace and tolerance with spitting venom and curses and all manner of incredible presumptions. These people are known to and Rabbit loves them. They are living farcical lives, where everything they describe about Satan and Illuminati and all manner of extreme visions is as true only as they are making it. Worst and it is this which chills Rabbit to the soul, they are the closest thing to the wicked and decieved ones who are aligned with THE GREAT WHORE OF BABYLON, as could be imagined. This is their image, their prophesy and they can’t see their place in it. Tragic.
The horror for Rabbit who is a contented Agnostic and deeply spiritual, loving person, is that these loved ones are the very thing they are describing as “lost”.
God help us all because these crazies believe that they are about to be carried away from the World and all it’s troubles and the quicker they set fire to the whole place the quicker they will get their Rapture.
They are totally non-compos mentos (Sorry Latin students). They have completely substituted Beliefs for facts and have practised long and hard at believing in things which have not a shred of evidence to support them.They call this faith.
....For merely questioning how does a Loving God allow them to call for the blood of Muslims and support illegal unjust wars, Rabbit is said to lack faith.
For pointing out that Jesus Christ did not carry a Machine Gun, Rabbit was assured that he should not speak Jesus Christs name, for he is a sinful Rabbit who knows nothing of “The Lord” and Rabbit should instead get down on his knees and pray for help. Hmmm.
When Rabbit tried to point out that George Bush was not a Christian just because he said he was and that his actions had never led one to expect he might even be a decent human at all, Rabbit was subjected to insane gibbering, curses and threats. The sister almsot went into a fit, yelling about murder, baby rapists (this was about victims of Katrina) and evil hateful Muslims who all had to be killed or nobody could ever live in peace, becaue they had no God, they had a false God.
Also Rabbit was told he knew nothing about how much tolerance and Love the sister had for Muslims in general, it was just the Fundamentalists who had turned their faith into a religion of hate.
There was more and strange as it all was the hideous face, foaming mouth and rolling eyes were even more strange. This is Rabbit’s little Sister. Rabbit shocked, still is.
That is some but a good sample of it.
Now how the hell does anybody reckon with that?
Trolls and Shills are bad, but oh boy wait till you’re up against the God Squad.
There is one sniffing around this site by the way, having lost his usual hunting grounds at ADE, he may pop up and give us a full blown demo if we are lucky..
Rabbit whistles,................................. will he come?
Whattheneck Rabbit knows too there are things worth killing for and worth dyiong for, but you are in my territory if we start them. These things have been defined by Rabbit as Ideals and they are listed as Love (Family), Shelter, Food and a Future for our children.
Every living creature has the same ideals and they are the only things worth killing for or risk being killed for. Yet many people support actions and even perform actions which threaten their own ideals in a very real and even immediate sense. The only way this could happen is if those people had been tricked into believing they were doing something which was for other than it’s real purposes.
Christians can be tricked into believing their God wants them to do anything. So can any population that does not recognise its own basic ideals but instead allows Governments and Churches to define and guard their ideals.
First identify those absolute ideals, what will you die for. No slogans! Nobody would die for a country or a flag or an idea, people die in wars thinking they are helping protect those they love. The politicians say they dies for their country. Those who survive may kid themselevs those others died for their country. Bullshit. They died believing they were defending those ideals of Rabbit’s or they died dissillusioned realising the truth.
Since nobody can make their own ideals safer by threatening others, who must by definition strike back, no war is ever justified unless it is a defensive war.
Any war which seems inevitable is not. If it seems os then somewhere somebody is lying, because it goes against the nature of life.
Anybody who chooses to keep breathing at birth, who gets ouit of the way because they might get hit by a bus or bomb chose life, so why would you ever believe anyvbody out there worships death? Those few who do soon take themselves out of the equation, the rest think they are chasing their ideals because they are so deluded.
Rabbit. Isn’t he sweet? He’s quite grown on me.
Are you a fan of Watership Down… which rabbit are you??
No slogans! Nobody would die for a country or a flag or an idea, people die in wars thinking they are helping protect those they love. The politicians say they dies for their country. Those who survive may kid themselevs those others died for their country. Bullshit. They died believing they were defending those ideals of Rabbit
Hi Liz
Combination Rabbit. Soul is Rabbit Year (Chinese astrology). Inspiration is a Dwarf Black Rex, Rabbit looks most like Christopher Robins Rabbit, bit Grey not so cute as the Rex.
..............Rabbit likes Liz too, someone who stops to smell the roses, Rabbit and Missus Rabbit went for a bike ride around the Swan River this afternoon. Could smell the honeysuckle and other wildflowers along one path at one point, so sweet…........................^^.................
Oh gosh! You sound like a very nice Rabbit and I hope you and your doe (I always liked the name Hyzenthlay - if I’ve got it right! out of the Richard Adams masterpiece….)
have a very nice walk and lots of kittens. (this being the correct technical term.)
Can see the scene not sure if Rabbit seen Angela’s ashes though. Like when I saw “Once we were wariors”, Rabbit saw the whole Maori thing and so familiar.
Such ideas are bound to resonate, Rabbit has seen and read much and is only a simple Rabbit so has not made up anything new yet. Just find old things lying around, sometimes they just need a bit of polish or a better setting and something old and even ancient can seem like a new idea.
People dig new ideas. They think if they can get enough ideas then they will be able to get the best. That is the sort of thinking which separates men and women shoppers as a rule. (In OZ) Rabbit thinks maybe the problem is too many ideas. Maybe we can find a simple one we can all agree on. Well most all, can’t do anything for the “FANATICS”. So we may have to cut our losses as a race.
Lose about 20% of them and so long as it was the 20% who are most determined to join their God, we’d be in heaven ourselves, at least for our alotted timespans on this lump of rock and dust swooping about in the big black space called time.
Yes but Mrs Rabbit is so in name only, the doe is actually a Snake, but a cute Danish one and three healthy Kittens show a good union has been achieved.
Must go home and have dinner, after will be looking by in about an hour, to see if the God Squad has arrived. Is Liz waiting for the God Squad too?
Now upon re-reading that gives one heck of a weird image for kittens doesn’t it? Rabsnattens? Rakes?
....................................^^..............................Daft Rabbit hops off for something to eat…..
Are you an Australian Rabbit then, or a New Zealand one…. but you talk also as if you were right in the thick of North American events… I’m not. Thankfully.
Question: What is a Jebusite?
Is a follower of Jesus W.‘s brother. Somebody let me know, OK? Gotta run now, have to bail out my son from jail and take my wife to the airport. She’s flying to Paris to do some shopping. Take care and may God bless Corporate Amerika/Saudi Arabia.
Back to the article, if Moyers generalizes too far by broad-brushing the Reps at large, it’s only by a half-step.
When I hear of activist Republicans vociferously denouncing the infiltration of biology classrooms by the Old Testament, when they publically abandon any sponsorship of a marriage-defining amendment to the Constitution, when TV preachers who advocate political assassination are shut down hard instead of their words being called (in a singularly mealy-mouthed fashion) “regrettable”, I’ll believe that the party isn’t possessed by the spirit of aggressive reactionary Christianity.
Moyers has it dead-on when he says we’re too polite, to afraid to speak right out about values that denounce sectarian control of the law. When they call us traitors, satanists, degenerates, we should fire it right back that they’re medievalists, dogmatists, fearful of the liberty they glibly claim is their agenda.
And more to the point, they should be disobeyed. Whether they finnagle control over the law or not, when it comes to matters of conscience and personal guidance over one’s own mind and body, they should directly and without pity be disobeyed and fought off if they try to bully.
See if they can keep me from legally joining my life to the one I love! See if they’re able to grab my childrens minds and force them into medieval, knowledge-fearing shapes.
That’ll be one fuckin’ fight!
Rabbit is an Aussie Rabbit. Irish Scottish ancestry. The internet is a good medium of exchange and Rabbit is a citizen of any medium he cares to enter.
How can anybody NOT be in the thick of events of the magnitude of that we are witnessing?
The only difference is perception. Rabbit is small, somehow the World does not seem to be so big though. Have lived and travelled a bit and many things and places feel close when they are no longer strange.
From whence cometh the good Liz?
Hi ho,
Q:How did these religious poseurs obtain the moral high ground?
A:They claimed it.
Q:Why do these zealots have as much power as they do?
A:We allow it happen.
Frankly,these bumpkins who sell religion like after-life insurance should never have been able to gain as much power as they have.They have a product to sell and will never quit until everyone is a loyal customer.
Unfortunately,opportunists in a certain party sought to manipulate the religious right to tap into their coffers.Just look at the mess.
Compared to the G.O.P.,Dr Frankenstein was a rank amateur.
Kuya
Have read Rabbit post about Mormon family?
This is the sort of people who form the God Squad. They are among the core of the last supporters of “The Junta”. These ones are in Westren Autralia too, it is no further away from Rabbit than he must face the same insane radicals in his house too. (Not for a while though after the last round, thinks I)
Rabbit knows them well and there are many examples. They have even less of a coherant argument than the Right wing Dittos and Morons we see around here. These God Squad people are totally irrational, they cannot even articulate anything better than “Get down on your knees”, “you need to ask God for forgiveness” “We must have faith” “God will take care of things” Put it all in the hands of Jesus and lets go sing some lame songs.
Kuya, how the F**K do we reason or otherwise deal with these people?
The horror was it was so easy to convince them Bush is their messiah.
He says God and Jesus a couple of times and even though he’s never even been seen in a church he is their great Christian Leader.
Lets be quite clear about this Wwoods this is a truly incredible , most surreal situation we are witnessing. Does it ver strike you as it does Rabbit, this just cannot be happening? I am going to wake up any day and everything will make sense again? Up will be up, day will be day and left and right will at least occupy opposite sides of the plane.
From Moyers’ article:
“Fundamentalist bullies cannot be appeased. they must be confronted.”
Bingo!
I maintain the only reason Ghandi could make those statements was due to others who “confronted” evil.
It is the police, the military, and all individuals willing to put their lives at risk fighting (killing when necessary) not for personal gain, but for freedom, liberty or to protect the weak, who have held societies together for pacifists and dreamers. Without them all would be anarchy.
What good is it to “confront” a bully if you are unwilling to fight? My religious experience is somewhat like Rabbit’s. My more literal Bible believing father always said, “We are to turn the other cheek.” My mother said, “Don’t start a fight, but if someone hits you, hit back twice as hard.
All my fights were of one punch
Bonny Prince Charles had a bastard son in Ireland if I recall.
Rabbit got into it with the school bullies evrywher. Glasses, non-conformist, bookworm, but saild an sawm lots on weekends. Rabbit kicked their arses at each school, then went back to being the school outcast. Could never give any noitice to all the “Suckholes” who were always so ready to transfer loyalty to the new “Tough Kid”.
Never made the grade as a tough kid, just a Bully Basher.
Have noted the book, don’t know if it’s anything like it but Bryce Courtenay’s “Power of one” inspired and Richard Bach’s, “Jonathon Livingstone Seagull”, “Wings” and “Bridge Across Forever” are the quintessential soul books for modern man.
Goodnite for now.
WTH the thing about fundamentalists and confronting them needs more discussion, Rabbit agrees but needs to extend this to mean all fundamentalists, in this case especially the Christian ones. It is first and foremost our duty to confront our fundamentalists. The Muslims are quite willing and capable of dealing with their fundemenatlists if give a chance. The problem begins when our fundamentalists get control as they have, and obviously it gets worse when their fundy’s get the reigns.
What can be seen in the ME as we speak is that the very act of allowing our fundys to call the shots and threaten others is giving their fundy’s a fantastic recruiting tool. The fundys who have arisen in ME have typically done so on the back of mis-guided Western interference. If we could all take charge of our own backyards we might soon see that once the fundys of all persuasions are dealt with by their own nearest neigbors, the rest of us will probably be able to get along fine afterwards. Rabbit has said clearly why before, hint the FOUR IDEALS.
GhostRabbit: I definitely understand where you’re coming from. There are wing-nuts in every organization, creed and religion. It sounds as if you are related to a few of them.
But keep in mind that not all Mormons are like that. “Wing-nut-itis” is somewhat rare in my experience although I’ve definitely met my fair share. I’m a Mormon and, unlike your family, I decidedly agree with Mr. Moyers assessment of how religion is being used to overtake and demean our great nation. And how the once great GOP party has been possessed by the neo-cons and their twisted agendas. It makes me sick sometimes just thinking about it.
But I also agree with whattheheck’s point made above that not all religions are politicized and controlling as we are seeing with some of the religious right groups. To label all religion into the “religious right” category casts too great of a shadow over all of the good that is done by all denominations in this country. The good folks at Interfaith Alliance have made this point spot on. Check out the web site here: http://www.interfaithalliance.org
Also, as an aside, I’d like to set the record straight that the LDS church’s policy is hands-off and neutral concerning politics. It definitely encourages its members to be politically active as they see fit (although most choose poorly in my view), but the church itself does not ascribe to any political party, view or dialogue and does not tell it’s members how to vote.
And that is how I think it should be.
Hi whattheheck
You wrote :
“It is the police, the military, and all individuals willing to put their lives at risk fighting (killing when necessary) not for personal gain, but for freedom, liberty or to protect the weak, who have held societies together for pacifists and dreamers.”
Many pacifists have/do put their lives at risk and many have lost their lives for their beliefs. My own pacifism is more practical and pragmatic than an absolute radical principle. I do not think it is morally wrong for someone to “kill when necessary”. I do think that refusing to fight and working for peace are the better answer to violence. Violence begets violence.
Rabbit
There’s a basis for the old adage: “religion is the opiate of the masses.” Truer words were never spoken!
Hi James there is nothing in whatyou say which Rabbit would disgree with.
Self many years as LDS member and have retained great respect for the Church. Rabbit is well aware about LDS Church policy too. Indeed many members consider Rabbits menbtioned family to be over the top.
The thing about it though is that it is one of the Christian faiths which is susceptible to Wing-nutism. Rabbit would never say that all Christianity or all of any doctrine leads to fundamentalism. My point is that the fundamentalists, God Squad, for short, come out from the bowels of religion and as such need to be dealt with by the individual religions.
The alternative is what we have now. An entire people, essentially separated from us by no more than religion, who are being made our enemy in war.
For both of our sides the people who are cheerleading and desirous of this war, are the fundamentalists. These people are the weakest link in any organisation. They are dangerous now because someone has hijacked their faith and is using it to bring about the fundmentalists own worst nightmare. All the way the Fundy’s think they are getting closer to re-uniting with their God.
These people are bats, they are blind and totally beyond reason, and they’ve got guns!
(They actuallyhave the most enormous arsenal of destruction at their fingertips and they “want” to use it.)
Be sure of Rabbit intentions James, he definately does not label all religion as radical.
WTH and Rabbit also on the same page, there are plenty of relions, including Christian denominations which are non-politicised. For this it’s hard to look past the Budhists though. Last step for Rabbit beofe accepting Gnosticism was all was Budhism, and they are gentle and good. Still like all religions the majority of its adherants only understand the wider message via symbolism, but whatever it takes.
WTH Rabbit will be posting a reply to you in a few hours. It is very important, but must deliver a boat to Mandurah a couple hours away first.
g-love. is right, but only the masse who haven’t already got Opium, or whatever your choice, if you know what Rabbit means.
The effect of allowing any “DRUG” to replace those four Ideals of all life. Alcohol, Cocaine, Weed, Religion even Politics can become opiates. All lead to abandonment of nmatural human principles in an insidious way, and can come to dictate all our life and relationships etc.
On the Scottish thing, again (won’t swear by this, it is what Rabbit remembers Granny telling him as a weeny one) A french born servant had a small one to Charles who was as far back as we could go. The wife is a descendant of the Danish “Gorm the old”. Much celtic and viking blood in Rabbits family. Proud Freedom Barbarians, but strong supporters of village life.
The things we will be examining in detail WTH will be 911 especially in relation to Iraq. We need to examine the differences certain scenarios would have on our opinions in these instances. We need then to look at Christian Fundamentalists, in light of your contentions about Just and right warfare. Especially in respect of how they are critical components of the support for war in the Middle East.
Others may have tackled this last before Rabbit gets back. Just a minor detail, remeber Robertson contributed majorly to Bush re-election and are staunch supporters. It would seem logical to any reasonable person that if such lunatics as Robertson support the same cause as one’s self, that should be reason enough to at least look very carefully at one’s own cause and what constitutes the facts upon which the opinion is based.
Rabbit has said that The God Squad Fundys are saying the same things as WTH to justify their crazy ideas, just not able to articulate all the details so they substitute faith and “Gods Word” whenever in doubt.
...
Point is…..These are your allies….Doesn’t that worry you WTH?.......It would worry Rabbit.
...
Back later….......^^........
Actually since this alone could be the Paradigm shifting thing for you WTH, and because Rabbit’s coffee is still hot.
............
The information needs to be shared and things re-considered in that light to actually make the full jump, but this idea should give one such as you pause WTH.
......
Consider that here are numerous people with whom you have interacted, on this site and others of a “Left” persuasion. We have all shown ourslevs to be varied and most clearly have a lot of clues and superb reasoning skills.
The fact that we really care, is shown in our very presence. Many ridicule Internet Blogging and Forums such as this, as being doing nothing. They are just not getting it. The internet is a huge community and is very much connected to the community at large via every single terminal. (We are each and every one, seen and invisible…{Hi watchers}...a terminal to the rest of our communities.)
We are the public debate which has never really gone beyond the local meeting house before.
Now among these people WTH you will notice many who are over the top Lefty and you will have noticed plenty who are over the top Right wing. Amongst this latter it should be apparent it is here the God Squad resides. You have seen them, Rabbit may be mistaken, but I’ll bet you have noticed a lot less reason and ability to discuss and find compromise, amongst those of a more “Leftist” persuasion.
Now the fact is that Rabbit hates using these words Left and Right to delineate any people.
It just does not work. WTH you are as much a holder of so called Left wing ideas as many of us hold ideas which are basically normally said to be rightist. The thing is only the extremists among us can accurately be charactersised as either. That is logical really. Thus the rest of us, those with more nuanced views, who are able to and desirous even of engaging in a two way communication in order to not only teach but to learn, we are not definable by left or right except in the relative sense. You are more Right wing than me, but you are are standing far to the left of that guy over there.
If Rabbit ever comes across as arrogant it can maybe be traced back to this attitude of his, which cannot actually define left anfd right as anything more than adverbs.
The fact is that when Rabbit looks at those who are furthest to the left, they are small in number and dwindling, often re-adjusting their vies over life, what is often called left is no more than the abandonment of many old ideas and an opening up to many new possibilities. The process may be left wing, but the result is typically much more balanced, someone like Rabbit for instance.
The Extreme Right is not diminishing. It is becoming more and more isolated and defined. The God Squad are in there well dug in and nothing short of an Apocalypse is going to move them at this point. If you don’t believe Rabbit, ask them.
Rabbit will wager a bet that WTH is going to turn around in the next few days and have a look at those with whom he is siding, even if only by default of the same cause. WTH is going to compare this to the spectrum of opinion, the massive variety of souls who much more gently yet firmly are saying no this is not what it seems, look away a moment, re-focus on something you know is real, then look back. The story of the Emperors New Clothes will come to be the most poignant political commentary in an instant, just maybe.
Rabbit has been using the allegory since Katrina, annd can see that it has become an oft repeated comparison for many more too. The parallels are shocking and then if you have not WTH, read, or re-read Orwell’s, 1984.
Will come back to the above but this part is worth thinking about WTH. Rabbit is delighted you have turned out to be a shining one and you are. Many find their way out of the labyrinthe by chance. Few have the power to find their way out, it is the most awesome thing I have ever seen actually, and twelve months ago would not have expected to see it happen over years. Suddenly it is a weekly experience. It is both exhilarating and a little frightening.
This seems to be happening for a reason. A quickening. James as an LDS you know the significance of this?.........The Quickening is upon us…......Sorry folks, silly Rabbit again…But maybe?
Sorry long….
“a lot MORE reason and ability to discuss and find compromise, amongst those of a more
Teasing a little here ...
whattheheck writes : “All my fights were of one punch
More teasing ..
GhostRabbit writes :
” You are more Right wing than me, but you are are standing far to the left of that guy over there. “
whattheheck writes :
” This kind of generalization is on a par with the very faction Moyers is criticizing. I consider myself to be an independent
Back in a couple of hours David. Want to go into the basics with WTH for Rabbit feels we have found the gate between our two fields.
.. and in the final analysis, to get back to the origins fo the article, the fundamentalists and extremists, of all stripes, shapes and sizes, have stolen and continue to steal the only thing of value we really and truly can call our own, the ideals we all hold so dear; peace, love, etc, etc .. if that isn’t too generalized and rhetorical. Big grin while I write this.
“I smite, you smite, he smites… we done smote!”—from the Coen Brothers movie; ‘The Ladykiller’s’
WTH wrote: ”...just because the president is a religious [fundamentalist] is no reason to tar the whole [Republican] party with the same brush. This only serves to further divide and radicalize people.”
WTH here writes perfect copy for postcards from the 51st state—what Kurt Vonnegut refers to as the fifty first state—the state of denial.
Where were you during the election campaign when the party used the church as a bully pulpit, or during the end days of Terri Shiavo, for crissake?
For WTH, start…
..
The left wing are in a better position to be able to accept the views Rabbit and many others here espouse, that is perhaps because the right has the problem we seem to be facing from within it’s own ranks. Permit this humble observation. It is entirely natural that such a problem as we describe would be harder to discern the closer one was to it. Logical? This does not say that WTH is part of the problem except in an indirect sense by supporting their aims. The ideas are not actually left wing either, they are simply an alternative but as a reaction to the extreme right, and due to the ease with which
Now the usual response to this is to point at some obscure incidents of small groups of people dancing in the streets in Middle Eastern Countries.
These instances were few and far between but were given maximum coverage by MSM. They were neither typical nor were they presented in context. Some of the footage was actually from Israel, where there was not only some dancing in the streets by shall we say
There is speculative stuff at the end there, but it remains to bring this into Rabbit
Take away the genuine grievances from the long suffering people of the Middle east and if all you have left is a bunch of fanatics full of intolerance and hate, the Muslims will soon shove those swine back in the box. They don
Hello Rabbit,
Way back up-thread, you asked me how to reason with (so to speak) legislatively ambitious fundamentalists, or to phrase it better and more accurately, theocrats.
The only way I can see it happening is to simply forbid sectarian domination over the law, to separate church and state and make it stick. For one thing, reasoning with them doesn’t work, because their positions have little to do with reason except to logically pursue the conclusions based on their inviolable a priori assumption, e.g. that the Bible and every literal word in it is a direct transmission from the mind of God to the society of men. Add the Quran, Vedas, Pali Canon, whatever whatever. The fundamentalist stance is that it’s impossible for scripture to be interpretable within a particular historical or cultural context, because it supposedly stands outside of historical forces. That means there’s no latitude of meaning and understanding, it says what it says and it’s the unquestionable, permanent, cosmic truth.
A little study of scriptural history dispels that view without, I believe, diluting the wisdom that can be found in holy writings. But when they’re unquestionable, when we’re basically forced to accept the dictates of priest-pastor faction who convince politicians that they’re incapable of being wrong, it all falls apart, and becomes just another mechanism for oppression. That includes majoritarian oppression (e.g. one of my line-in-the-sand issues, restriction of marriage rights).
There’s little of reason in their insistance that simply holding other values than theirs is an attack upon the foundations of the universe. But that’s what they think, and if they control the law, that’s the paradigm we’ll all have to obey.
For God’s sake, I’m not even an atheist!
They simply have to be forbidden from foisting their religious culture upon us by way of law. If they choose to exert religious discipline within their own lives, I will fight to make sure they’re able; the Soviet tactic of trying to destroy faith with force was a bitter oppression of its own, for example (not to mention, they failed miserably despite their brutality), and anyone who believes in conscience would have to have opposed it. Better yet, subverted it.
The crusader faction in America likes to prattle on about liberty, the religiosity of the Founding Fathers (which is highly debatable), etc. So let them live with an official and cultural separation between church and state. Make sure government is religiously neutral, permitting any worship form or none at all if one is atheist. The intensity of feeling among fundamentalists is not a sufficient reason for them to be able to control the law. It will just be a recipe for sectarian domination, educational erosion, victimization of targeted out-groups who don’t have Biblical favor, and control of culture by overly strict, zealous, delusional people who actually believe in fairy-tales like a 6000 year old universe.
And if they want to continue believing that and teaching that to their kids, oh well. It’ll give my own kids a competitive edge in the real world.
By the way, you actively religious types, before you call me a hater or anti-religion, just hold your horses. If you want to push the line of devoted compassion, doing good works in the world, promoting a sense of worshipfulness toward the source of all being and consciousness, I’m there. Teach away. Push the compassion of Jesus, you’ve got an ally.
But don’t expect me to stand still while moves are made to make it law, either statutory or Constitutional. No cops, no courts, no law that compels worship or adherence to sectarian values not my own. Nope. I refuse. And I hope every thinking person disobeys all of that stuff to the limit of their endurance.
That is the surreal part though, that they just cannot be reasoned with. It is a scary thought Kuya but it is hard to avoid concluding that the only way to deal with fundys is, with vuiolence. Not a problem before, but shit, they’ve got the bomb now dude. They’ve got the flaming Button, and they are not afraid to use it. Jesus Christ mate these maniacs want to bloody use it.
They scare the bejesus out of Rabbit, I can tell you, and Rabbit is an Gnostic. Please don’t mistake Agnostics with Atheists. We are the opposites as it happens. Just in case when you say Atheist you were thinking Rabbit.
Rabbit would appreciate any help going on the Radioactive wounds of war thread. The most determined yet outed shills are preaching death and evil and resort to complaints (False) to stifle opposition as well as every dirty shilling trick known to man.
What is more it is an issue most any body from any political persuasion around here can agree on thinks Rabbit. Thread is long but it has certain unique features as will be seen..
“We also know that the
The writer has an agenda, alright. I have an agenda, you have an agenda—we all have our agendas.
It sounds like that movie, “The Highlander”. :-)
Seriously, I was very glad to read the statement that, “Rabbit hates using these words Left and Right to delineate any people. It just does not work”. I agree wholeheartedly. But these monikers have been quite effectively used to divide the US. Even if we don’t use these labels, those in power will and will use them very effectively. You see it in the media every day (especially in the Fox News and Propaganda Channel). And the pundits and followers of the current push have written the red vs. blue and us vs. them mentality into everything they write or publish. Thus creating an even wider divide.
This is not a typical, “wouldn’t it be nice if we didn’t use these labels” situation. These labels are a weapon. Just as effective as any gun in silencing an opposing view. If you dissagree with their views that the red states are the “true” America and that the conservative views are the only realistic and moral possibility to consider, then you are automatically given the label, “Liberal”. And that label comes with all the negative connotations that it has been warped to contain.
If you haven’t yet read the book, “What’s the matter with Kansas?”, read it. The beginning chapers hits right on this subject in how the perceptions have been altered over the years so that any liberal-style thinking is automatically thought to be elitist, snobbish, tea-drinking, Europe-loving, hedonistic, intellectually superior, wine-tasting, American-hating, Blue-stater, blasphemous lies. In their view it is extremely white or black (or Red and Blue in this case) with no shades of grey allowed. You are either with us or against us.
Well, I have liberal-style thoughts. Lots of them. But none of the descriptions above pertain to me, or at least I’m unaware that they do. In fact a good portion of the descriptions (hedonistic, snobbish, elitist to name a few) aptly describe Bush’s “base” instead. But of course no one bothers to see past the surface of the rhetoric to see that.
It was mentioned above in this list that you should read 1984. I agree. (Although I think he was twenty years too early with his title.) While we aren’t to the extreme control as is displayed in that book, a good portion of the “mindspeak” and control over thought patterns is very much evident in today’s government. Brought to us in the most part via the media.
So how can we avoid the ending in 1984? Because at this point I’m just making myself depressed…
Hello again Rabbit,
My hesitancies about initiating violence against fundis are 1) it would be immoral and oppressive, and I don’t want to become what I hate, and 2) it wouldn’t do anything but galvanize counter-violence. Oppression doesn’t make people go away, they just go underground and make plans for the future. Also, at least in America, I think too many people would see an assault on fundis as an assault upon religion per se and would rally to their sides, not just evangelical Christians but even lukewarm ones, as well as most of our citizens.
So I see practical and (mostly) moral reasons against attacking them. However, I feel perfectly free to defend myself, my loved ones, my country against any sort of movement toward a Gilead-like revolution, as per Margaret Atwood’s novel “A Handmaid’s Tale”. That’s a work of fiction, but when I read it I couldn’t say that its scenes and speculations were entirely unrealistic, in a not-too-distant future day.
However, since the more likely (and some would say observable here-and-now) scenario is slow infiltration of our institutions by sectarian priorities, I’ll work to contribute to a social and legal culture that stays religiously neutral but that permits worship in whatever form, pushing scientific attitudes to the extent that people are willing to investigate and discover new information about how the world and people work. There are lots of good reasons why people worship, social, cultural, even possibly biological if you like to read some of the interesting material on the subject in anthropology and physiological psychology. I pray myself, though silently, figuring that The Real Thing, if it cares to listen or has the capacity to do so, will catch my drift. Worst case is that it’s a psychological game played against the background of the instinctive fear of death. I’ll see when I’m dead (or not see anything at all, as the case may be).
I’m not at war with the faithful, even the evangelical, but I just don’t want them to control the law. Middle Ages Europe, 1990s Afghanistan, ongoing Saudi Arabia, etc etc, how many examples of excessive connection between priests and rulers can one cite? Anti-freedom, to say the least.
Wolf there are those of us on this thread who are probably better informed about Christian doctrine and bible than you.
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Rabbit has previously known you to spit hellfitre and brimstone, you are very ready to do the “Vengeful God” act, remember I’ve seen it in full flight.
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Like many self deluding Christians you talk about a loving God and yet you seem to revel in the blood and guts at every opportunity.
..........
Now that the God Squad Cheerleader is here, we can really begin. ..
Rabbit has been calling you Wolf, what kept you?
.................
Wolf,
Rabbit and probably James too has 4 years of Seminary behind him. What are your qualifications to discuss Christianity?
James
There is a tremendous amount of truth in the fundy view of what is happening. The question of course becomes which came first the chicken or the egg.
Prophecies have a immense creative power, the more who believe, the more that power grows. This is partly why usually the seer cannot absolutely say what will be.
The fact remains that such ‘beliefs” which have been fed by most cultures over hindredsd of years or more, hold quite a bit of momentum.
With the visions summoned by our shared prophesies, coupled with the very real life counterpart, it is understandable to be afraid.
Faith in something magical like a ‘Translation’ or whatever the big “save” is called, has to be long practised until all reason and logic is gone from one. In this way only is it possible to strive for Armageedon and feel clever doing it.
Then of course such people are completely Rabid and leave us with no choice but to excise them somehow. Rabbit is not advocating violence, he has recently chosen to give evrything he has to try and avoid the otherwise Massive violence which is approaching. The question remains whta are we going to do to bring the God Squad back to earth or at least make them leave the Earth intact. They cannot be reasoned with, they have got the gun, and they are completely predictable qat this point.
.........
It is a very worrying thing if you consider how many “conservative” thinking people are turning a complete 180 degrees in their feelings about US direction and Politics.
The woorying thing is that the core supporters who were never in there due to conviction anyway. Since they chose Bushler for no reason just Faith, and since Faith is all they have, they are unlikely to fall away.
Rabbit foresees an almost solely Fundamentalist support base remaining about the Junta, before long. They will be completely isolated, unreachable and they still are holding the Bloody button.
beyond what rabbit has already said Kuya, we are in agreement on all points of what would be best.
...
To ask you a question Kuya, How long do you think we have to get the “GUN” out of the crazies hands before thye really do some harm?
Do we have enough time for the steady, steady drip of reason to soften the Rockhard shell of Fundamentalist Armour?
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It is at this practical consideration that Rabbit runs into the same despair everytime.
......................
Rabbit even has a simple Religion Buster, a supremely simple creed which should nullify the effects of religions, you have seen it
I think.
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Do you not feel that we are on the eve of destruction?
Sorry but short…....
The more chaotic and horrifying the world situation the more the God Squad is going to commit to their course of action. Do you see haow incredibly dangerous a situation this is? Any sane and rational people would start to back away from a course of action which brings more chaos and destruction. These WACKOS are going to become more and more convinced they are right the more things go berserk.
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Man that is one hell of a situation, and very , very unstable.
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Makes you wonder of the brilliance of the neo-can Junta having alligned them selves with the Fundy Christian cause in the first place. When it comes to trashing the planet, these guys were made to order. They need only be a minority to work well, because they are such an all-fired voacl and absolutist minority.
.................
Once again Rabbit points out that these nut-jobs have got the Button. The BIG red scary BUTTON. Not to mention planes, bombs, ships, lots of soldiers and more buttons…...
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Seriously, this is not just an academic exercise. Wolf should be into his stride in a few posts then take the opportunity to observe one of them in action….......try and imagine him with a gun in his hand then, tell Rabbit that isn’t worrying.
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..............Hey WOLF….............
Rabbit thinks Jesus Christ was a Hippy like Rabbit and he probably smoked pot. He sure as heck was more comfortable among the crowd at the Pub than in the churches. God and Rabbit are good friends, God and Jesus loves Rabbit, they tell him so in his Rabbit heart.
..
...What says Wolf to this?........
Kuya writes : ” My hesitancies about initiating violence against fundis are 1) it would be immoral and oppressive, and I don
I’d like to remind Whattheheck the his belief that Americans military actions around the world somehow automatically equate to fighting for “liberty” and against “totalitarianism” may be no more that a comfortable, conditioned perspective. He forgets the death squads in Latin America and the overthrown democracies replaced by fascist U.S. puppet regimes. Iraq did not attack America, yet we saw fit to visit upon them our “shock and awe”, as we hurried to “secure” their oil fields. Suprise! No weapons of mass destruction… But, it’s all good. We needed to free them from that monster (who the U.S. put into power there, but who now refused to obey).
Also… Whattheheck may not know much of Ghandi. But Ghandi was able to say the things that he said because he was a man of great faith and personal courage and integrity. And it was he, himself, who stood up against the evils of his day and challenged the very self-righteous imperialism that Whattheheck inadvertantly seems to be advocating.
One man’s freedom fighter is another man’s terrorist. Thoughts like these deserve deep consideration. Let’s stop using Christian “religion” (whatever that really is… it certainly has nothing to do with the sensibilities of Christ) as a smokescreen to obscure hidden agendas that ultimately are contrived to help the rich get richer and to marginalize everyone who doesn’t support that idea.
This God thing of today is mostly self-serving human bullshit. ‘And I truly believe that God would agree with me… and Christ too.
ljwhit writes : ” This God thing of today is mostly self-serving human bullshit.
Only the God Squad will not allow you to claim their GOD. If it is not their God you are talking about, and only they are the boss of their GOD, then you are obviously talking about SATAN.
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Get down on your knees David….
.....You know?.....
Rabbit mentions again the fact that the God Squad is no longer just a funny sideshow. They are the main driving force, or the excuse for the future which is looming like a very bad nightmare, an approaching Cyclone, or Hurricane.
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The storm is looking so big it may cross the boundaries of both hemispheres, then what do we call it…...........Hurriclone?...........
....
Maybe the word is already coined…............ Armageddon feels close.
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Rabbit says again, guys they have got the Buttons and Guns and Boxes of bad things and they are in a corner of own making. Being nice to them is not working. Rabbit has a sister,........ you know the rest.
GhostRabbit says: Rabbit mentions again the fact that the God Squad is no longer just a funny sideshow.
True that the God Squad is humorless and certainly not humorous. These sick, dishonest Machiavellian bastards are truly dangerous.
True that their god is not my God. But it is not in the nature of my God to shrink in fear from their intimidations. Afterall, he who would save himself, will be lost.
We must offer a more honest God to those whose world is so narrow, stupid, contracted, and mean that all they have to justify their comfort zones is their self-rigtheous faith.
Perhaps the truth can set them free. If there is no power to love… then what is the point?
Take heart, GhostRabbit. No need to behave unwisely, the danger is real, but we must each do what we can to try to save the day.
Hello again Rabbit,
As for guns, I favor strict regulation. For everyone, fundis, socialists, liberals, conservatives, hunters, and target shooters. Not total confiscation (except for illegal weapon holders), but careful, enforced regulation.
The 2nd Amendment gets so much heated debate, it’s an insoluble issue in America. Personally I don’t get too worked up over it. I don’t think firearms will protect citizens at large from oppression.
A lot of my in-laws think that favoring gun regulation is a daft position, saying that we might need to fight off oppressive government troops. But as far as I can see, governments everywhere on Earth will simply appropriate whatever resources are necessary to fight armed insurrection. Shooting at cops brings SWAT teams, shooting at soldiers leads to tanks in the streets. The state gets stronger, more ready to deal out violence of their own, when citizens shoot at them. So if (like me) one wants a less invasive and less brutal state, shooting at uniformed officers would be a 180 degree wrong tactic.
Fundis who arm up may fantasize about fighting off federales, but the events surrounding the Branch Davidian group in Waco TX during the Clinton administration was a pretty vivid lesson against their views. Whether the fire was deliberate or accidental, the point is that federal agencies closed in and were not going to play softball with armed resistors. We can debate about the BDs (from what little I read, they sounded rather bizarrely cultic in the worst sense of that word), or the competence and justifiability of the federal response, but anyone can see that their move to arm themselves didn’t help them. Probably it led more quickly to the fatal outcome.
Coming back to my original point, I’m less concerned about fringe wacko groups (not to discount fringe wackos like Tim McVeigh, who was executed for destroying the Murrah Federal Building with a truck-sized fertilizer bomb in Oklahoma City), and more worried about a popularly backed, fundamentalist legislative movement that gains power through activist political tactics and strong emotional appeal. For me that’s a more likely and more dangerous scenario. For violent fringe weirdos, there are law enforcement agencies. But when government itself has the agenda of pushing a sectarian line, who protects us then?
Oh yes, and as for people who have an overzealous “afterlife” emphasis getting ahold of warheads and missile systems, well, I think those types are far more likely to us the things precipitously than secular-minded types.
Not that I trust secularists who have nukes either. Still, if one believes that the “real” world is the one to come, on the other side of death, I can’t help but suspect that they’d hesitate to nuke an enemy less and be more likely to go for it. The ITT article pondering Iranian nukes drew this same response from me. It’s a quandry. The former Soviets were officially atheist; if they had been religious revolutionaries, would they have been more likely or just as likely to cap off a few MIRVs? Hell, maybe it makes little difference, but I do get a visceral sense of suspicion when people speak of “the world to come” as being more real than this world. Plenty of delusion to go around, I suppose, secular or sectarian, but in any case that’s my gut response.
Kuya
Rabbit agrees that firearms for protection from our governments does present a largely self defeating solution.
Violence is rarely the best solution and is never a preferred one for Rabbit. Any sort of violence should be entered into from a position of strength, and a last ditch defense against advancing superior forces is not likey to be one of strength, rather one of desperation.
.................As for Guns, the fact is and always has been that anybody who would use them for the wrong reasons is not going to follow the law anyway.
.....Guns are NOT hard to get hold of if one is determined. If one is already familiar with criminal circles, many are thanks to banning of popular drugs, it is downright easy…..........Rabbit is talking about Australia, which has had a level of Gun control you Gun Control Americans can only dream about. Also strengthened substantially of late. ....Rabbit swears that illegal firearms have become eeven more prevalent and easy to acquire since the recent tightening of Gun Laws.
......
Rabbit who is an experienced and very competant shooter, prefers not to own any firearms these days, legal or otherwise.
.............Rabbit is actually quite a good Explosives Chemist and Practitioner of the fine (and it can be fine) art of Blowing things up, not to mention cutting, softening and opening with high energy reactions.
Very highly exothermic reactions are Rabbit’s favorite toys…...He loves them….He loves Rockets of his own design and manufacture. Rabbit loves Catherine Wheels too.
.....Holes can be dug with such ease, with such toys. .........The point is that when it comes to violence, Rabbit though eminently qualified would do a lot to avoid having to do anything violent. Things can go bang without breaking and killing, Fire and Sparks can be much more than just an effective way to kill. They can be, should only be, for our enjoyment.
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If the dreadful day comes when people must stand and fight those who would oppress them from within, then the best trick will be to get all the stuff you need of them. That is typically how resistances work. Rabbit has some old friends who were part of the Danish ressitance in their youger years, many interesting stories.
....We have always got the upper hand, w are the majority by a massive degree.
.................
Like Ghandi, we can and should extend a peaceful resistance to tyrrany for as long as there is a chance they will back down.
.....Unlike Ghandi we are facing a far more tyrranical, determined and entrenched foe. It may in the end come down to having to die fighting or live like curs.
....Oklahoma Bombing as well as many other “Events” over the last decade or two, are not good points of comparison anymore. There are too many “VERY” substantial questions about too many VERY critical deatils of such events, even the Federal Murrah Building.
...Rabbit will not accept that there is any proof that there are any particularly significant Terror organisations which exist for any other reason than as “Snowball” type creations. The unseen enemy, the danger against which we must defend ourselves at the cost of all freedom and privacy.
I am quite frankly sick and tired of people using these “Events”, so few and far between, as any kind of justification of anything. They are pretty few and far between even if all are legit.
.
It is not merely because of a few Crazy conspiracy theorists that there is an IMMENSE culture of people who are convinced that many of these things have been deliberately orchestrated by a single entity or two all along, but it is not those who have been very unconvincingly given the blame.
Rabbit does not raise these matters because he feels it is the time to discuss such things, seems off topic to be fair, but it is not as if these “events” were even well established facts. Many of the official stories have been so severely discredited at least that they have no more right to be badied about in serious discussion forums without qualification…...
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Rabbit assumes that people on this thread are sufficiently informed about recent developments in the 911 case? The whole deck of cards is due to collapse any day, and even a totally compliant media will not be able to hold back the flood waters on this one.
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911 is of crucial importance, because if it was not what it seemed and we know it was not, then pretty much everything which has gone on since is cast in a “New Light”. That last sentence may be one of the greatest understaements of the decade.
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The artifical WOT and the whole Painted Scenario comes crashing to earth, leaving the most arrogant and hubristic race of people ever envisioned, devastated, as a superpower, extinct. As a world leader, extinct. All in less time that it takes to write a constitution.
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No knee jerk “Rabbit hates America” rubbish please from anyone. Knows Kuya is not so narrow minded, but who else is there? Rabbit is sad, devastated even to see this once beautiful and respectable Nation of Ideals, become what it is becoming. The worst of it is it is taking Rabbit’s homeland down with it, we are joined at the hip, or somewhere on Johnny Howhards Anatomy anyway
Kuya Rabbit has before said that Iranian Nukes do not worry him, and they should not worry anyone.
The only reason Iran has a “More” religiously inclined government that even the Iranians want, is due to the interference and heavy handedness of US interference in their business.
...
Let’s not go there, unless you seriously don’t know what Rabbit is talking about when he says that the USA, solely responsible for the hatred held for it by not merely religious Iranians but the secular ones as well.
Iran is being backed into a corner and it is only natural they would seek Nuclear weapons for their defence.
Stop slandering the Iranians who have not engaged in violence or even threatened it against the USA.
They have legitimate grievances with the US, a long and well documented list, but are asking nothing than to be left in peace.
Still they are being slandered by the US, they are being asked to jump through even more impossible hoops than any devised for Saddam Hussein and they are actually jumping through those hoops with flying colours. Kuya you are a reasonable person, Rabbit requests you formally to have a closer look at the reasons for your judgements of Iran or indeed any Middle Eastern Nation. You have got some shocks coming thinks I and Rabbit is not being rude saying this. The time is come for the truth, you would want nothing less I am sure.
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Let us say some Muslim God Squadder started blathering hate, in a similar way to a Robertson, for example. Let us say the Muslim government does not lock that Muslim Cleric in jail for saying such crap, but instead merely distances itself from the clerics words.
Does that justify calling that nation a terrorist nation?
.....If it does then the USA is by definition a Terrorist Nation too.
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How about Libya, set up, lied about, slandered and even had missiles shot at them by the US Military, not merely some Fundy nutcases, no sir, they got a few cruise missiles up their backsides and an attempt made to KILL Ghadaffi. Got some of his family for those who care. All Libya did was say we were not involved and nor is there any evidence to say our citizen was involved.
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....Oh but Libya is a terrorist nation. The Lockerbie Bombing is the evidence for that. Yes it is about the only evidence for such claims….Who knows the rest of the story?
......The whole case has collapsed as a Senior policeman and a CIA agent have independantly come forward to say that the only piece of evidence to link the Libyans, was planted. That is just the death stroke for the case, there is a lot more went wrong actually.
.......
Now Kuya, does it seem right that this was done to Libya? Does it seem possible that Libyans might have a bit of bad feeling about that?
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The most incredible news is that because they are Muslim nations they have a spiritual aspect to them which allows them to rise above a lot more of the hate and pettiness which is more common to Christian society on the whole.
...Mate if the MUslims were more intrinsically violent we would be living a daily bloodbath.
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Mate the fact is that it is mostly Muslims who are living the daily bloodbath, and it is us doing the killing.
...................An observation.
“Libya was hit with missiles by the USA for refusing to hand over some of its citizens for trial when they said there was no case for those citizens to answer.”
Being stationed in Germany when L.I.B.Y.A. meant Lakenheath Is Bombing Your Arse, I remember that the bombing of Libya (April 1986) was in response to the West Berlin Disco Bombing that killed many American serviceman. This was three years before Lockerbie (December 1989).
I don’t know if GhostRabbit is a fantasy persona or real. What is evident though is that Rabbit is able to think. He is clearly well-informed and researches for a more objective truth. He is not some ring-the-bell-the-dog-salivates, knee-jerk, programmed-by-corporate-propaganda type. He is outside the matrix, and sees what the real deal is… more or less. He is no longer sitting in the cave, watching the shadows cast unto the wall: he has gotten away and stepped out into the light.
He seems to understand what most are afraid to even consider, and what most are in fact dedicated to being in a state of denial about… in protection of their ego-centered self images and their immature comfort zones. Rabbit is not so easily controlled by the stupor of fear and insecurity.
Rabbit is right… and it bears repeating, that the “events” that are used by ruthless Machiavellian types to steer “the bewildered herd” are, when closely studied, bogus and not at all objectively consistent to the “official versions” of what occurred. There are important unanswered questions and valid reasons to be suspicious that the truth has been hidden and we are deceived.
‘And he is quite sensible to reflect that even if these events were actually legit, as shaped for us by the corporate media, they are so few and far between that is doesn’t make sense that they should be the center of our lives and the singular driving force of our national agenda. Our unelected “leaders” do not serve “the people” but are errand boys for, and members of, the stratospheric elite of the “new world order”, who would rule the world. They use these explosions, and their God bullshit, to steer the frightened herd towards the cliffs.
The ability to quote Plato does not make one right. Remember, Plato also thought that societies should be ruled by philosopher-kings who had the right of sovereignty by virute of being smarter than the rest of us.
To say one has the ability to think, that one seeks objective truth, and then back it up with comments that are over-the-top conspiracy theories about “unelected leaders” and that “straospheric elite…steer(ing) the frightened herd towards the cliff”, is about as disingenuous and counterproductive to intelligent discourse as you can get.
It is no different than saying God exists because without a God, there would be no intelligent design.
Bill Moyers says,
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“Having lost faith in all else, zealots have nothing left but a holy cause to please a warrior God. They win if we become holy warriors, too; if we kill the innocent as they do; strike first at those who had not struck us; allow our leaders to use the fear of terrorism to make us afraid of the truth; cease to think and reason together, allowing others to tell what
To Jay Cline continued:
As for the elite: You are aware, are you not, that less than 1% of our population owns more than 50% of the wealth in our nation. Ponder for a while the implications of that. That, to my mind, is not exactly the kind of society
that our founders had in mind.
Speaking of conspiracy theories: Let me give you a couple of dots to connect.
Dot 1: Are you aware that in the early 1930s that the very popular Marine General Smedley Butler reported to congress that he had been approached to lead a military coup against FDR. The coup was backed by some of the nation’s wealthiest and most powerful business interests, who wanted to establish a Mussolini-like fascist government to replace our democracy. There was a congressional investigation which seems to have validated the possibility of such a plan. However, the whole thing was swept under the rug somewhat by insecure politicians and a not very free press. No one was ever held accountable. For a deeper look at U.S. history as it is NOT taught in our schools you could read The Plot to Seize the White House by John Spivak, one of the better researched accounts of the plot.
Dot 2: Are you aware that the term “military-industrial complex” was not created by some 60s hippie? The term was coined by President Dwight D. Eisenhower when he tried to warn the American public, during his farewell speech to them, that our government was insideously being taken over by military-industrial interests who were driven more by greed and concern for the nation. Read the speech, research the concept.
Dot 3: The Project for the New American Century—- The New World Order. This neo-con plan for the American Empire which calls for the U.S. to take control of the middle-eastern oil fields. Members of the Project include Cheney, Wolfowitz, Perle, etc. These plans were presented for consideration to Bush I, but he thought that the American people would not go along with such extreme measures when they lacked justification. In the neo-cons own language, some type of “new Pearl Harbor” would then be needed to bring the American people on board. How fortunate for them that 9-11 provided that new Pearl Harbor event to justify implementing this hidden agenda, which had been in waiting in the wings for a decade.
Do you homework.
I was in the Air Force Security Service, the USAF branch of the NSA, in the mid 60s. I had a top-secret, crypto clearance, and was involved in electronic/communications espionage. I spent 2 years in the northern snow mountains of Honshu, Japan and a full year in the Northwest Tribal Territories of Pakistan, where Bin Laden is now. One thing I came to understand from this and other experiences is this: Things are seldom what they seem. Most agendas are hidden and fed to the public as something else… something admirable. Truth is that there is are ongoing agendas in both domestic and foreign policy that have nothing to do with the commom good or our national interests, but instead are devised to transfer large amounts of public capital into private corporate pockets. This is not the society that our founder’s intended.
‘And any close, thorough, fact-based analysis of our last two presidential elections ought to leave some bit of fishy smell in your nostrils. Who are we to be trying to establish “democracy” around the world, when the will of “the people” is being undermined and discouraged here at home? These last elections are two of the most questionable in our nations history.
Obviously, I have too much time on my hands, Jay Cline. But it is good that we deliberate and respectfully exchange perspectives. This is what our founders intended. No one account has the total picture, but a collaborative pursuit of honest, objective truth will help to get us closer to it. The truth will set us free: and nazi-like, emotionally-conditioned, corporate-sponsored, faith-based propaganda will enslave us.
Response to all three DOTs from ljwhit.
Yea, who doesn’t know that? You don’t need a top-secret crypto clearance to “ferret” that out.
Typical conspiracy nuts believe they know everything and everyone else is just dumb, blind and stupid. I believe the medical terminology is ‘delusions of grandeur’.
Did you know General of the Potomac Army George McClellan, affectionately known as “Little Mac” or unaffectionately as “Little Napoleon”, advocated a dictatorship (ie military coup) to rescue us from Lincoln’s simple-mindedness? And did you know that he was the Democratic presidential candidate running against Lincoln in 1864?
Did you know that Vice President of the United States Aaron Burr, the man who killed Alexander Hamilton in a dual during Jefferson’s presidency, was approached by the British to start a new “republic” out West? With British military support?
Did you know that Generalissmo Douglas MacArthur attempted to force President Truman’s hand with regards to using nukes in Korea?
Did you know that General Arnold Benedict ... well, you get my point.
What’s your point? I mean, short of invoking Illuminati conspiracies, that is.
My point, which you never even touched, is that
leading the country into a fight against an evil that actively target civilians and commits mass murder is not tantamount to fear-mongering.
(Mis)quoting the sign on the gates to Auschwitz, “Arbeit macht frei”, doesn’t give you much credibility, either.
One additional note:
“You are aware, are you not, that less than 1% of our population owns more than 50% of the wealth in our nation. Ponder for a while the implications of that. That, to my mind, is not exactly the kind of society that our founders had in mind.”
umm, you mean the kind of country where free men can aspire to be something? where free men can keep the fruits of their labors?
Did you know that nearly all of the really big tycoons in American history, started out with practically nothing?
Yeah, I really do believe that is what was intended…
Do your homework.
God, I just can’t let this alone. The more I read of ljwhit, the more I am left dumbfounded.
—-
Clearly on of the most questionable elections was the election of 1800, when Jefferson and the aforementioned Burr tied in the electoral college. It had to be decided in the House of Representatives.
—-
Per explicit clauses in the US Constitution.
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Just like the elections of 2000 and 2004.
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Don’t need no stinkin’ conspiracy theory to understand that…
The vacuous rodentia says,
“Let
Moyers reports,
“We know we can go through the Bible and construct a God more pleasing to the better angels of our nature. We also know that the
And if such evidence exists, then we must, by Moyers’ own logic, paint the Iranian mullahs with the same brush that he would paint the American religious right.
—-
After all, they share the same Father Abraham.
Clearly dumbfounded seems to be a natural state for Jay Cline. Sooo… 0.25% of the population having half the wealth in the country is the simple result of merit and virtue, aye? You’re a very complex thinker, Jay. Nothing amiss there. It is just that the majority of our people lack any substantial merit, ability, character, or virtue.
Hitler started at the bottom too. He was a self-made man… soo full of merit.
Jay Cline says: Leading the country into a fight against an evil that actively target civilians and commits mass murder is not tantamount to fear-mongering.
And who, Jay, is leading this fight against such evil? You seem to think you assumptions on the basics are absolute and not relative.
Jay conveniently overlooks such things as the not-really-necessary little A-bombs dropped on Japanese cities, the U.S. sponsored death-squads in Latin America, the massacres used to prevent self-determination in the Philiphines, and the yet to be fully investigated 9-11 attacks which were used as a springboard for the “shock and awe” devastation of a highly populated Bhagdad, in a country that did us no harm. So many dead women and children.
Perhaps this is tantamount to hyprocrisy.
Hey, Jay, the definition of “good” is not “something done by the U.S. government.”
‘And the definition of “evil” is not “opposing an U.S. imposed agenda.”
Let’s try using a single universal, operable definition for terms like “evil” because I’m not really that comfortable with the dishonesty of double and triple standards.
Jay Cline, who has a familiar posting style BTW, is riding a long train of generalisations and working out from wholly unnacepatble presumptions to have come this far down the thread and to have still said, nothing substantial.
.......Don’t start petty small attacks of Rabbit before you have even addressed what were resoned remarks, one thing at a time Jay or else you will end up doing what Dittoheads do so well and that is start a dialogue and continue one between yourself and an imaginary ebing in your head.
You have no nead to assume, rabbit, he makes his points in an orderly and straight forward fashion and has anticipated most of you spiel already. You have fallen into a trap of your own making already adn are not debationg a actual contention as much as nit-picking at the periphery of the main points.
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Common fare for many but something you will end up choking on if you expect to share a meal with Rabbit.
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Thanks for the Pat Ljwhit, Rabbit doesn’t ask for it but always warms his heart when others see he is not just a stupid Rabbit getting under peoples feet. Ljwhit is clearly seeing and has dealt with many of Jay’s contentions, Rabbit will have to work through them all a bit, in order to see if he needs add much.
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It actually does not make an overarching difference about the attacks on Libya, when or why. We have yet to establish the details to all satisfaction here, and if it were critical we can certainly do so. Does the eventual turn out from Lockerbie, ie; False charges and deliberate planting of evidence have any bearing on how we see our relationship with Libya then, Jay. Is it OK we set them up to prove they are terrorists, because we just know that they are?
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Speaking from actual knowledge Jay, Libya is one of the most laid back, friendly and pleasant places to visit. Lovely easy going people, a huge stupid bureacracy which is bent whatever way necessary to get things done at a people level. The crime rate is apparently low, especially crimes against people. )Quite a secular state in fact, religious fanaticism is not visible.
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Of course you are horrified and will probably call Rabbit everything from a terrorist to an idiot, but you will be wrong on all fronts by then and will be in danger of dissapearing up your own backside before we get to anything important.
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Let us instead deal with the much more critical issue of 911, because you Jay as well as all the more or less informed of your frightened and panicky bunch of sheeple are convinced that that was your great justification for making war onwhat is coming to look more and more like the rest of the world…....Don’t start blathering already, sit back and shut up and listen to people who are neither confused, frightened (except of you) or unreasonable. We will find facts which support our contention and which make a steaming heap of poo out of your present “Beliefs”. That is all you have Jay and it will be shown to be so. You lack logic as well and probably all open mindedness which probably means you will make a complete ass of yourself from here on in.
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That is OK too because your failure will stand as a lesson to others more capable of thinking for themselves and nothing is lost.
...
Trust a nice Rabbit who does not wish to cause you grief but who is more than capable of doing so if you insist. Don’t be in to much of a hurry until Rabbit says it is your turn, you have already crashed a bit before takeoff so cool your jets while Rabbit gets the time in bits and pieces to sort this out. Have to make Kayaks and talk to people about Kayaks in between, Rabbit you see is very real, he has a little Plastics Factory and is eating a warm Choc chip muffin with his morning Coffee.
Griffin on 911, paraphrased:
..
The official story that nineteen Arab men of fundamentalist Muslim persuasion hijacked four airliners and flew them into the WTCs and Pentagon, is a CONSPIRACY THEORY.
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The question to be answered is “WHICH” conspiracy theory is best supported by the facts.
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Since some FACTS are on the table, if we are to continue discussing rationally we had best see where these FACTS take us, Jay and any others who are getting ready to weigh in here.
..
Rabbit gives you all fair warning if you start calling theories or opinions, FACTS, in this thread, Rabbit will bite your limbs off one by one until you are left looking like a large Witchety Grub wriggling on the floor, in your own gore…
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There are pleanty on this site who can contribute to this and Rabbit hopes they will help by doing so, but let us keep to defining facts so we are all given equal chances to form logical opinions…....
...This does kind of exclude Dittoheads, but that does not mean they will realise it….We can but hope..
...
It is not off topic, it is crucial, because whenever the going gets tough the wimps call 911.
...
Rabbit opinion is that 911 should be a day of celebration for followers of Bush because in a grim way it is the only thing rabbit thinks he ever did right. Maybe as usual by not touching any of the buttons as he was told.
..
Without 911 they would have no case even in their own poor little heads, to kill so many people.
By the way Jay all your claims about Iran are full of holes. You are clearly VERY misinformed about recent history in the Middle East except the TV news. Whilst we will get back to destroying your claptrap, shackled together bucket of rusty bolts of an argument, Rabbit would like to just remove the wheels from your cart, right here from the start.
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911——-The So called “bloody nose” given the USA, and by some reckoning the Western world.
.....
Question: If we attacked Libya because they wouldn’t turn over suspects, how is it that the retalitory attack in 1986 happened before the 1989 Lockerbie crime?
But, of course, you are right when you say,
“The official story that nineteen Arab men of fundamentalist Muslim persuasion hijacked four airliners and flew them into the WTCs and Pentagon, is a CONSPIRACY THEORY.”
And the evidence that Iran provided the muscle men for the four hijacked planes is mere conspiracy theory as well, supplied by an senior offical Iranian defector.
Well, that can’t be true. Defectors are never reliable.
Rabbit talks a lot but says nothing. Anybody got a good hasenpfeffer recipe?
ljwhit’s distribution of wealth statistis keep changing; not to mention flat out wrong.
Actually, the top 1% of the population has 1/3 the wealth. And the top 20% has 80%.
http://www.faculty.fairfield.edu/faculty/hodgson/Courses/so11/stratification/income&wealth;.htm
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=2050
But, suffice to say, some got more and some got less. Some work harder, some work less. Some are smarter, some are not.
I stand by my stated convictions. The failure of anything resembling socialism in the last century indicates quite clearly to me (dumbfounded or not) that only those societies that allow for and respect private property are the ones that are better for everyone. I do not believe in equal outcomes because I am arrogant enough to believe that I can do better for myself, as long as Big Brother don’t come knocking and level my hard earned wages with someone barely working.
I do hope someone comes to rabbits rescue. He is just a bit too rabid for my tastes.
Without 9/11, that’d be great.
—-
But it did. Blaming Bush, Inc is just sour grapes.
The Great Beast writes:
“The ability to quote Plato does not make one right. Remember, Plato also thought that societies should be ruled by philosopher-kings who had the right of sovereignty by virtue of being smarter than the rest of us.”
Goddamn right. If you should meet Buddha along the road… kill him!
Karma Chameleons:
http://bodyandsoul.typepad.com/blog/2004/08/karma.html
And now… Van Morrison: “Rough God”
“Why must we believe that God is sadistic, brutal yadda yadda yadda? What evidence is there that God slaughters?”
Hey, what evidence is there that a God exists, at all?
“A test of what is real is that it is hard and rough.”—Simone Weil
“To believe in God is not a decision we can make. All we can do is decide not to give our love to false gods.”
“It is not for man to seek, or even to believe in God. He has only to refuse to believe in everything that is not God.”
http://rivertext.com/weil3.html
“[Rabbit] is no longer sitting in the cave, watching the shadows cast unto the wall: he has gotten away and stepped out into the light.”
http://rivertext.com/weil4a.html
[The man who has left the cave annoys the great beast. Stendhal: “All good reasoning causes offense.”]
RABBIT: “...the WTCs and Pentagon, IS a CONSPIRACY THEORY.” “The question to be answered is “WHICH” conspiracy theory is best supported by the facts.”
Uncovering the truth of 911 is the single most important story of our time. Lets hope we know it before the whole shithouse goes up in flames—dead rabbits tell no tales.
ljwhit,
—-
Ok, fair is fair.
—-
Let us define hypocrisy, then. For the sake of the argument, let us say Nagasaki, Hiroshima, Latin American death squads, Philippine massacres are all concrete evidence of American evil. Let us also add Dresden, Wounded Knee, Lincoln’s abolishment of habeas corpus and Adam’s Sedition Acts.
—-
Let us also assume that they all justify, or at least, legitimize by example, the 9/11 attacks.
—-
Is it then not also true that the 9/11 attacks themselves justify, or at least, legitimize by example, everything America has done in the name of the War on Terrorism?
—-
Please do not follow your colleague’s example and not answer your own questions.
—-
Please, what is hypocrisy?
Jay you are going to have to try and understand the difference between Facts and Opinions. Rabbit is content to verify facts as presented and we can then apply those verifiable facts to our opinions which are the only things which are able to be changed. Once you realise the difference you will be expected to refrain from substituting one for the other, either when making your points or when questioning another’s. If you wish to state something like the following as a fact then please be so good as to give a source.
..
..“evidence that Iran provided the muscle men for the four hijacked planes is mere conspiracy theory as well, supplied by an senior offical Iranian defector”
.. It does not actually make the world of difference to My overral contention Jay but you will have to do better than that.
.........
You are well advised not to call Rabbit names, for none you can coin will come close to striking Rabbit. Rabbit is to all intents and purposes impervious to any form of cave-man style effort you are likely to be able to produce. The biggest problem you face is that Rabbit is an Intelligent, Open minded, experienced and well travelled Rabbit. Rabbit is well respected by many on the Internet and has amassed some credibility as being able to see mistakes, change his mind on the basis of new evidence and even apologise when the situation calls for it…
..If Jay is foolish enough to try and get fancy with Rabbit he will be gradually and painfully turned inside out for the enjoyment of all and all the personality flaws which would have brought Jay into such an unnecessary conflict will be laid bare in such a way that Rabbits humble observations about you will sear your soul like hot water. ..
Rabbit is not nasty but has Zero tolerance for Shills and TRolls and Dittoheads who feel the need to push the wheel-less cart of a corrupt and thoroughly discredited JUNTA.
..Rabbit does not call petty names Jay, but that is all you have at your disposal, find a chink in the Main contention, don’t waste your time trying to pen some elegant dribble which when put to the test contains nothing of substance…
...............
It would not seem wise for you to talk about many words saying nothing. All this is said once, and it is you that has made it relevant.
Jay says:
...
“Question: If we attacked Libya because they wouldn
Just noticed that all those words you posted on this page add up to zilch, we are examining the first and most crucial “FACT” Jay. The assumption by you and others that Muslim Fundamnetalists were solely responsible for 911.
...Once we have established the best theory to explain “WHO” was responsible for 911, we will examine the question of whether or not this event or if you wish any other justifies what is being done to the Mostly Muslim countries in the Middle East.
..
First the WHO, Jay because unlike some, Rabbbit likes to establish opinions of his own, based on “real Facts” not some unsubstantiated and wholly illogical claims.
...
Your opinions are downloaded when you plug into the controlled media program, and then you just seek re-inforcement for these things, unless you are one of those who then prays for guidance, which is a whole other beastie. Last but not least is someone with an agenda but Rabbit would not accuse Jay of being this, yet.
.
Jay has attempted to sound logical here so Rabbit shall just deal with this drivel.
..
.
“Let us define hypocrisy, then.”
........... Actually Jay we don’t really need to define Hypocricy, it can be looked up in the dictionary, please don’t Rabbit print it.
As for the examples of American Hypocrisy, far from complete but a good start, they are all good examples.
.....They do not mostly relate to why some Middle Eastern countries hate America, and not even the most insane fundamentalist would give most of your exmples a second thought. You should know this Jay, you sound really silly otherwise, their are very specific instances of RECENT US interference with the countries in question which are much more immediate and real grievances. The people who hate America are not philosophising to themselves about why they hate America. It is stunningly SDurreal to suit at this distance and watch so many Americans actually discussing among themselves why and struggling to come to grips with the idea that somebody hates them.
How can anybody be so stupid. Let Rabbit say it again, “The people who hate America are not philosophising to themselves about why they hate America, they have it all down in black and white, they are clear over their grievances and what they want. Most are saying it with words and angry demonstrations, a minority are taking this anger to action. No Middle Eastern country has ever attacked America and any evidence which exists to show any other governments have supported Terrorist interests against the USA, generally refers to the countries the USA counts as it’s most staunch allies. Pakistan, Saudi Arabi, Kuwait and ISRAEL.
.............These are not opinions Jay, they are facts, and they are the sort of facts which help Rabbit form his opinions…...Would you like to question any of them, I will source if you will.
.JAY asks:
———“Is it then not also true that the 9/11 attacks themselves justify, or at least, legitimize by example, everything America has done in the name of the War on Terrorism?
—-
....Hardly, 3000 people killed by an extremist group (Maybe) justifies waging war on two nations at least one of which never could have been in any way involved. The war includes the use of banned Weapons of Mass Destruction (Depleted Uranium, Dirty Bombs, Son), it is being waged in contravention of all the Geneva conventions and it has netted a total of about 150,000 of Innocent victims. Unless of course you are saying that no Muslim is Innocent.
...
Rabbit knows you mean that, but he doubts you are ready to say any such filth just yet.
....
Now Jay how is that for answering your imagined Rhetoric question?
....
..
Back to 911, ...The evidence so far points to the financial backing for 911, as having come from Saudi sources, with Bush family and Bin Ladins very closely allied finacially.
... http://www.prisonplanet.com/saudis_paid_bin_laden_200m.html
...
...http://www.prisonplanet.com/new_revelations_on_911.htm
..
...http://prisonplanet.com/bush_senior_in_business_with_bin_laden.html
...
...http://www.prisonplanet.com/the_bush_bin_laden_money_connection.htm
..
...Rabbit reminds the likely forgetful Jay to check any sources before you start spouting about unrealiable sources. For any one you question Rabbit will find Three to replace it. So make sure you don’t just go all from Prison Planet, not reliable, for if you are literate enough to have gotten this far you are capable of verifying that there is nothing at all from Prison Planet among these, they are merely a collection point for the sources Rabbit is using, and they are all good.
Still on the economics, but it gives a clear indication of certain very large holes in the official THEORY.
..
There was a huge amount of insider trading which was indulged by certain US and Israeli interests which give a very clear picture of massive foreknowledge of 911 by “Certain Parties”.
..
.......http://prisonplanet.com/profits_of_death_insider_trading_and_9_11.html
..
... http://prisonplanet.com/profits_of_death_part_2_trading_with_the_enemy.html
..
...http://prisonplanet.com/profits_of_death_part_3.html
..
....http://prisonplanet.com/suppresed_details_insider_trading_cia.html
..
...The point of this is not so much to say who did what, it is to disprove that it was the sort of secret operation, so well concealed that nobody had any clue until the planes hit…This is relevant because it is the Official Theory and here it just sucks. Lots of people knew it was going to happen, not just Major government and Business interests.
..
....http://prisonplanet.com/weve_hit_the_targets.html
..
..http://prisonplanet.com/weve_hit_the_targets.html
..
...http://www.prisonplanet.com/prior_knowledge_of_sept_11_not_just_urban_legend.htm
..
..If the US government was aware of and even as it will be shown maybe contributors to the scenario of 911, your whole case of 911 justifying an attack on Iraq, and even Afghanistan is dead in the water, you do realise don’t you, Jay, ...just checking….
..
We are only just warming up Jay and Rabbit has not even begun to get into his own area of expertise, explosives and using them to do things. we have not yet begun to look at the actual collapes, the clear evidence of cutter charges going off as the “Three” buildings came down in a way that has never been seen before, except many times in building demolitions of course. ..
..
Just a foretaste, Jay but do you know why very competant demolitions people would spend weeks preparing a skyscraper with explosive cutter charges in order to bring a building down in a perfect stack of rubble, evenly and safely?.
...If were as easy as flying a plane into the thing, and it would all happen like magic, why do you think we bother? Heh it must work dude, two quite large skyscrapers fell to Earth at the very speed of gravity, in the most perfect controlled demolition this Rabbit has ever seen, heard about even. It was classic, and the puffs of debris which preceded the point of collapse by about thirty floors all the way down, corresponded to the distance in time the cutters would have been set to pop.
..
There is a Janitor, the last person to leave WTC 1 before it came down, who is a witness to the fact that there was an explosion in the basement “BEFORE” the plane hit. He has another 27 witnesses who verify his story, including one person who was injured in the first blast and was subsequently saved by the Janitor.
..
Don’t freak Jay these are contentions which Rabbit will be presenting as Facts and backing up with LOTS of sources. For now let them start as a warning.
...There is more, much more and it will be backed up, what you have been given so far is but a small warm-up exercise.
..
Remember FACTS<——————————->OPINIONS
, you get the second one for free, but Facts will have to be paid for. None of this, it was on the news, and everyone knows it. Rabbit does not watch “The News” and nor should you. go get some facts and form your own opinions, why settle for a copy when the real thing is the same price?
That was a long set of posts, and Rabbit must not for the first time apologise for being ‘hoggy’ of space. When Rabbit hops he needs room , but economical hops are not always small ones.
..
One thing is for sure Jay, for you to hop back and reply that Rabbit is weird or stupid or a Lier or any other odd fancy you may entertain, would be the height of foolishness, for any of the above Rabbit will sheer your toes off at the stump in one bite…
..You’d better not try and change the subject for that would also be a loss. Rabbit has put his contentions clearly and related facts to them. The overral contention, stands to be tested, piecemeal for now but sticking to Facts, we shall consider the worth of any opinion we may wish to emphasise along the way, by comparing it to facts…..........^^............
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Forgive me for a moment as I weed through toxic dung pellets as I search for Vorpal Bunny nuggets firm enough to respond to.
When VB states,
Iranians who have not engaged in violence or even threatened it against the USA.
and then argues that evidence of Iranian malfeasance in providing the muscle for 9/11 “does not actually make the world of difference to My overral (sic) contention” ,
I can then only conclude that VB a) has lost grip with reality, b) is a fool and really doesn’t understand, or c) is the criminal mastermind behind all of VB and ljwhit’s conspiracy theories and is engaging in a massive misinformation campaign.
Given the otherworldliness of VB’s logic, my bets are on c) and that VB is actually the evil hamster-like genius Dr. Jacques von Hamsterviel.
A similar argument can be made for VB’s continuing convoluted Libyan causality, even with his acknowledgement of having the facts grossly wrong.
VB’s contention that “seven (alleged 9/11 terrorists) are alive and well, and were not involved in any suicide acts “ reminds me of Mr. K’s comment on the real identity and location of Elvis.
I really love that scene with Tommy Lee Jones is hanging upside-down, rocking to the King…
VB then argues that those who attacked us on 9/11 did so because they hate us.
No! Really? So, if I hate someone, like my neighbor who I know is chopping my shrub down every couple years (who else could it be?), that is justification for murder? Oh, I am sorry. I forgot that the 9/11 attackers were American-hating Islamic Fundamentalists has yet to be proven. So, why are we wasting our time providing Grecian Apologies for their criminal non-activities?
I hate American-hating Islamic Fundamentalists who have committed non-murder, so that should be all the rationality we need to strike back. Oh, wait. I already made that point.
VB argues,
” Back to 911, ...The evidence so far points to the financial backing for 911, as having come from Saudi sources, with Bush family and Bin Ladins very closely allied finacially (sic - again).”
But, what was that money used for? According to the ever-lovin’ VB, it was not for American-hating Islamic Fundamentalists to kill 3000 people, so even if Bush is directly responsible for financing Bin Laden, no crime was committed. In fact, if Bush is directly responsible for the financial backing of Bin Laden, and Osama used that money to build Islamic schools and hospitals, then Bush and the American people are the Great Saviors of the Islamic people.
No?
The rest of VB’s logic rests on this notion of Bush financing Bin Laden and 9/11, but Bin Laden is not responsible for 9/11, so we must make the facts fit the theory and conclude Bush is the best thing to happen to the Middle East since The Prophet.
Jay it is hard to bother with you if you want to play imaginary maey upy games.
...................FACTS Supported by SOURCES.
OPINIONS Based on OPINIONS, none of your faith based garbage, you just lost all your toes and you have yet to raise a single fact worthy of the name, just half coherant opinions and not even particularly relevant.
If you are having trouble comprehending the very basic but well prented argument so far, how are you going to cope whe we get down to “Important Facts” not just this small stuff, which won’t even make or break anything.
...
Now stop dicking about and Rabbit will pretend you did not also just lose a few fingers with your feeble attempt at insulting a Rabbit who is more reasoned than you at your best when Rabbit is talking in his sleep.
Jay Cline aka Wolf (Bunny guess) says:
..
“and then argues that evidence of Iranian malfeasance in providing the muscle for 9/11 “does not actually make the world of difference to My overral (sic) contention” ,
...
No Drongo Rabbit SUGGESTED it makes no difference, if it was argued you’d know about it. Do you always go about things by nibbling around the dges like a baby?
..
What Rabbit asked was that you did not merely make unsubtantiated claims, that if you claim a FACT then you establish it is one or crawl back into your fanatsy and don’t risk puncturing your stupid little Balloon by bringing it out into the big wide world.
....
Which part about FACTS .. versus OPINIONS does Jay Cline not actually understand?. Do we really need to look up Hypocrisy in the dictionary? Were you serious before after all? You need simple words like that defined? Whilst there we shall see if the dictionary can help Jay Cline understand FACTS and OPINIONS. Even if we can see there is a difference, we will be making headway from the look of things.
Wolf…oops, um Jay why do you keep talking about Greek things? Rabbit saw Alexander last night, Is there some sort of GREEK fixation you are struggling with at the moment?
..
Surely you don’t think that saying Plato and Grecian makes you seem cultured or learned. Such a sophisticated thinker like Jay would know that any relevance to this discussion of Ancient or classical Greek philosophy is not sought or likely to lead to anything useful.
Stop posing and stick to learning the simple stuff,
FACTS ....sourced
Opinions…based on facts.==== Debate…^^...
Now any normal person would be expected t6o respond in a rational and sane manner at this point but Rabbit suspects we will now hear the God Squad mobile start up and go into gear.
..
What else is left?
True, Jay Cline, that my statistics on the distribution of wealth in the nation change. But be not so analytically dumbfounded that you cannot figure out that they were not inconsistent or contradictory. One being more general (less than 1%/more than 50%) for the purpose of discussion, and one being more specific (0.25%/50%)and based on census data.
But, of course, if Jay’s analysis of the implications of this information leads him to believe in the myth of meritocracy… so be it. If it is his opinion that this state of affairs reflects the vision of our founders, then let it be… his opinion.
So allow me to contribute a bit to the discussion of “opinion” vs. what might be converged on to be objectively factual and actual. To be a bit crude, it has been said that opinions, Jay, are like assholes—Everybody has got one. Our reasons for choosing our preferences in what we “believe” or in the “positions” we take are determined by more than fact or truth. While I am sure that Jay has sufficient knowledge of the human condition to realize this, I am becoming wary of how much he may not realize about HIS own condition. Nevertheless, Jay, by all means have your opinions.
However, if one is to engage in the “pursuit of truth”, one must distinguish that from simply defending/promoting one’s “position” or
opinion or belief. Not that one can ever totally divest from the conditioning/emotions that give one juice, but these things must be compared to and held secondary ans subservient to what can be shown to be more objectively valid and factual. Even then, it takes many strokes of valid information and analysis to make a painting of a more complete picture.
My concern with you, Jay, is that it seems your juice seems invested in having your “right” position prevail… even if truth must be betrayed and sacrificed in the process. You dismiss as out of hand (over-the-top) what doesn’t fit into your well propagandized little box. I know you consider yourself an informed thinker… but it is beginning to seem that both your information and your thinking is narrowly dedicated. This is not to say it has no worth. Yet, I think much could be gained by an broadened ability to view a thing from a variety of assumed perspectives and by weighing information by standards more objective than whether or not it fits into your little box.
Jay says:
.
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......Rabbit thinks that is the smartest thing you have said Jay, improving are we not?
..
Oh it was temporary I can see, look at the next post…Oh dear, this is going to be a long and winding road, and it is so short if we did not have to pick up every piece of rubbish Jay finds along the way, but no the little collector in his little God fearing Heart must pick up poop.(Or is God not your special friend jay?)
Ljwhit is an optimist if expecting a rational Jay, but hey no harm in hoping. Rabbit would bet on a hysteria based attack which will quickly reach a fever and pitch common to that breed known as God Squad. Rabbit thinks this is a God Squad in disguise, it smells very familiar. It is missing toes and a few fingers so far, going to bed but expect Jay will be metaphorically wheel chair bound by tomorrow when Rabbit looks by.
This is a good heartwarming article, feel good stuff for “liberal Bush Haters”
..
http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/?q=node/3167
..
cheers
Well, dung appears to be as prolific as bunnies here. The only nugget of worth appears to be ljwhit’s assertion that less than 1% does not conflict with .25%.
True. But neither is fact and neither is opinion. The statistics provided are just plain wrong.
If one is to engage in the “pursuit of truth”, one must get the facts straight, regardless of whether you are talking about distribution of wealth or timeline causality.
I do not disagree that my opinions on the value of equal outcomes vs equal opportunities are in fact opinions. But your opinions are just that.
Opinions.
The fact is that a survey of 20th century success stories vs failures shows a preponderance of free market economies succeeding and command or mixed command economies failing. My conclusion is that the free market system appears to have very definitive advantages over command style economies. A central fact, a central tenet, of free market economies is that those who succeed are rewarded with the the fruits of their own labor.
Theories are evaluated on how well they explain the facts. It is a pity neither the Energizer Bunny or the witless whit seem to be able to apply their own logic to their own arguments.
Hypocrisy, Jay, and I think you can be simple enough to appreciate it is, to give an example, vilifying a manner of behavior/acting done by others and then pretending that the same behavior or acts (by any operable definition) are somehow noble when committed by oneself.
Typically such thinking confuses acts with motives and simply ascribes “evil” motives to the other and “honorable” motives to onself. It the the problem of double standards, Jay.
By any operable definition of the word “terrorism” the U.S. government likely qualifies as the world’s biggest terrorist organization. The most recent historical revelations about the real reasons for deciding to drop the A-bombs was to ‘terrorize’ the rest of the world, especially the Russians, and let them know that we were ‘badddd’.
Jay, this is not some football game, where all that is at stake is Horray, Horray for my team. There are larger, more significant, and more important things at stake here… for all of humanity. You don’t really buy into that black/white, good vs. evil abortion of reason, do you?
Jay says: Well, dung appears to be as prolific as bunnies here. The only nugget of worth appears to be ljwhit
whit,
Is it hypocrisy to go after a group of terrorists and their infrastructure and their sponsors after they murder 3000 people in cold blood?
Is it hypocrisy, in a time of war, to use a weapon, against an intransigent enemy, that kills 100,000 people but saves the lives of a million soldiers?
Is it hypocrisy to criticize the current commander-in-chief for the deaths of 1800 soldiers, but to criticize a previous C-in-C for saving 1,000,000?
Is it hypocrisy to call an act of war, such as the dropping of the A-bomb, an act of terrorism, but to assert that an act of war on our own civilian population is a legitimate expression of an aggrieved and oppressed people?
Is it hypocrisy to assert that Iran has legitimate defense interests in procuring nuclear weapons, but to call the only act of actually using them illegitimate? If the use of nuclear weapons is not legitimate, then how can Iran’s possession of nuclear weapons be anything but hypocrisy?
When the going gets tough, the beast merely ignores the 911 investigations. Can’t say that I blame him much though.
The point of contention that the Bush administration has used 911 as it’s modus operandi, so to speak, is well taken and pointing out the dubious nature of the facts as presented by the 911 panel is most apropos. That there exists a reasonable suspicion of a possible complicity on the part of those (figures within the U.S. hierarchy), who would stand to gain by such an event, is indeed plausible and worthy enough to base opposing views of the evangelically associated conservative agenda. But it is the direction of that argument here, the allusion to references without primary focus and the interpolation of circumstantial evidence in the supposition of blame that has allowed the beast to reduce it’s inference to minutia and further a distance from the topic.
Having had direct contact with those identified as the ones responsible for actually piloting the planes that flew into the WTC, I’ve had close interest in the investigations that have since followed. My interest was recently piqued again with the revelation of ‘Able Danger’ and the 911 commision’s indifference to it’s relevance. And now, disturbing evidence of further government cover ups as this story unfolds.
What I find particularly disturbing are reports indicating Mohammed Atta was first documented by intel as early as the year 2000. So how is it then that I knew him as a flight student in the Fall of 1997 and was suspicious immediately of his demeanor and shared my concern with associates—but stopped short of contacting the FBI. You figure someone else with higher authority would know about them.
I’m convinced that 911 was the result of an orchestrated plot involving any number of (and perhaps unlikely) players that shared a common greed. The false reasoning for taking over Iraq is bad enough, but using the 911 event as justification is just over-the-top obscene.
I’d looking forward to meaningful discussions (elsewhere) on the subject and revelations to come—pinning my hopes of discerning the truth on the individual heroic efforts of honest investigators of conscience, people such as that likes of a Daniel Ellsberg.
Welcome to Terrorland:
http://www.madcowprod.com/08232005.html
After going back and rereading all the postings, I realize the comments directed at wolf and beast are being sent my way.
Apologies for not adopting a animistic token. I am just plain Jay. When I became a man, I gave up childish mannerisms.
Any comments meant for me should be so posted.
As far as ignoring 9/11 allegations on this posting, I haven’t seen any credible ones yet. Any response I might make to allegations made thus far, prior to Mr. Christopher’s latest post, has already been offered by my comments about conspiracy wingnuts. But if you can make any credible allegations without too much flourish, if you can avoid violating space-time causality, if you can get your numerical facts straight, I’d be more than happy to expound my thoughts upon them.
I ain’t afraid of no vermin.
In response to Mr. Christopher:
(note: if I misrepresent anything you have said, please feel free to enlighten me. Buddha happens to be one of my heroes)
<i>The point of contention that the Bush administration has used 911 as it
No, Jay, it is not hypocrisy to try to bring murderers to justice. It IS hypocrisy to use the fact of one crime (in which there is the possibility of government complicity) as a rationale to commit a crime of even greater magnitude against others.
It IS hypocrisy, Jay, to have a large arsenal of atomic weapons, to continue to develop nuclear technology for war, to actually be using that technology, to have been the only nation to have ever used nuclear bombs AND then to tell others that THEY have no right to have such weapons to defend themselves.
An “act of terrorism” could concievably be a legitimate expression of an aggrieved and oppressed people, I suppose (altho I never said these things). The British certainly considered the rebel colonists a bunch of terrorists. Yet, unnecessarily dropping atomic bombs on densely populated cities of an already defeated enemy for the “affect” of it would not seem to be the expression of an oppressed people. Truthfully, both acts are terrible, and sinful I reckon, but it still doesn’t seem quite like apples and apples to me. Maybe because of the dramatic difference in the scale of things.
How was the 9-11 Commission, better referred to as the 9-11 Ommission, “hostile” to the chimp. The chimp only agreed to allow an investigation if its scope was to be restricted to “lessons learned”. And the chimp also got to hand-pick the person who would be the chairman, and heading the investigation. Let’s face it, Jay, this “investigation” was about as legit and the Warren Commission and its magical bullet. To quote the beginning of a memo from the Assistant Attorney General at that time to that commission: “THE PUBLIC MUST BE SATISFIED that Oswald was the assassin; that he did not have confederates…”
Jay, since, you have pronounced me “dead wrong” on my facts concerning the distribution of wealth. I would like to challenge you to demonstate my error but producing your “facts” on the matters and citing your sources so that I can verify that you are right. Are is that getting too real for you. My information was from recall, but were not fabricated by me, but perhaps they are wrong. Since you said so, absolutely and adamantly… let’s see what you got. This could be a learning experience for us both. I am sincere.
Jay Cline writes : ” .. To charge Bush, Inc as the mastermind of creating a 9/11 commission (publically hostile to the mastermind) to provide
And this thread is way off topic.
Jay is a prime HYPOCRITE, but it is not as if anybody needs Rabbit to tell them this.
Since he talks nothing but Rubbish Rabbit is forced to throw his Rubbish out.
As I predicted he is indeed without legs today. Still fighting valiantly our black knight is but not looking good. Jay if you are Wolf, and it is well within the bounds of possibility, Rabbit will soon prove the fact. Actually you will prove it with rabbit’s help. We need not waste time on what are admitted unsubstantiated opinions, you are the GOD Sqad Wolf, or his twin brother. You can call yourself what you want, and so can Rabbit. My handle is short, accurate and honest.
Yours might be one or all of these things if we knew what it was. Not that I care to be honest. You are what you say around here and we can see you clearer all the time.
Now for Jay’s Rubbish. His paltry pack of pickled puke cast up in lieu of actual debate.
....
“Is it hypocrisy to go after a group of terrorists and their infrastructure and their sponsors after they murder 3000 people in cold blood?”
............No Jay that sounds OK. Do you have a group of terrorists who ‘you know’ murdered 3000 people in mind? The closest known event is still being investigated and there is a chance that a US government sponsored group did do such a thing recently. Once those investigations reach a satisfactory, ie: evidence based: conclusion Rabbit certainly hopes that the spomsors and perpetrators are “Gone After”
......A similar question Jay, is it not Hypocrisy to attack a whole nation of people who never did or even said anything against America, illegally and defying Geneva conventions as well as International Resolutions about Banned Weapoms of War? Then to turn around and claim such moral high ground that one’s OWN WORD should be sacrosanct and ample proof of anything, even if volumes of evidence say otherwise? Doews this fit into any category of Hypocrisy for Jay, the eminent Man who does not PLAY KIDS GAMES.
Is it hypocrisy, in a time of war, to use a weapon, against an intransigent enemy, that kills 100,000 people but saves the lives of a million soldiers?
Is it hypocrisy to criticize the current commander-in-chief for the deaths of 1800 soldiers, but to criticize a previous C-in-C for saving 1,000,000?
Is it hypocrisy to call an act of war, such as the dropping of the A-bomb, an act of terrorism, but to assert that an act of war on our own civilian population is a legitimate expression of an aggrieved and oppressed people?
.........Not at all Jay, what good are such Rhetoric Questions to you? You are reaching for a life-buoy and grabbed a brick there son.
Once the ACTUAL perpetrators and Sponsors of 911 are KNOWN Grief and expression will at least have a valid target. ...........In the mean time my dimwitted morsel of manhood, (perhaps an old foreskin), those investigations are being seriously hampered even blocked by the US government and it’s agencies. That is a FACT, and it is yet another FACT in an increasing list of FACTS presented as such by Rabbit to you, and as yet not challenged. Spouting unqualiified opinions is not a challenge to sourced FACTS Jay. Try and keep up here Idiot, you are not debating, just rolling around on the floor waving your arms, and you might as well forget those legs, they won’t go back on.
Is it hypocrisy to assert that Iran has legitimate defense interests in procuring nuclear weapons,
......No that is the truth Jay, they have legitimate defence interests due to aggression and threats of aggression from USA and Israel. It is indeed hypocrisy for America to claim moral superiority, once the fact of the Atom Bombs use, the actual motives and lack of NEED, is known. Like today for instance.
Using them at the time seemed fair and reasonable to MOST Americans and that was not Hypocritical. In this place the Hypocrites came a couple of generations later. YOU Jay.
....
Jay you are not ready to comprehend this but Iran does not Scare rabbit in the least if it should aquire a few Nuclear weapons. The Iranians can be relied upon to show more humanity and consideration of the consequences of their actions than the two powers with Lots of Nuclear Weapons which Scare a majority of the World’s people. USA and Israel. The rest are all pretty sane and Rational. You are in no position to question that. It is an Objective view point from outside the scenario, as a part of the rest of the world so to speak. You as an American Jay cannot as a subject actually challenge Rabbit’s assertion in this case. What’s the bet th irony will be lost on the clown?
But a final comment on 9/11 if I may.
You will ask for facts and evidence. I don’t know what happened. Deciding what is true and what is false is very difficult. Who knows what really happened? I don’t think we will ever truly know. It will fade into the realm of ” how many angels can dance on the head of a pin? “.
I was just going to post something innocuous just to be able to get e-mails and follow this conversation, but I have to get in my $0.02.
Just plain Jay says:
“Is it hypocrisy to go after a group of terrorists and their infrastructure and their sponsors after they murder 3000 people in cold blood?”
No. But it is if you intentionally go after the wrong group of terrorists. Questions have been raised which Jay dismisses without addressing the concomitant facts of reference. Not hypocrisy, just intellectual laziness.
” Is it hypocrisy, in a time of war, to use a weapon, against an intransigent enemy, that kills 100,000 people but saves the lives of a million soldiers?”
It is if you say that is the reason for using that weapon, but the actual reason was otherwise. Especially if the stated reason can be shown to be false, which is indicated by the available evidence.
“Is it hypocrisy to criticize the current commander-in-chief for the deaths of 1800 soldiers, but to criticize a previous C-in-C for saving 1,000,000?”
Not equivalent. First case criticizing CIC for lying causing deaths. Second criticism for lying about saving 1M. Criticizing both CICs for lying, decidedly not hypocritical. Consciously promulgating false analogies is intrinsically hypocritical.
” Is it hypocrisy to call an act of war, such as the dropping of the A-bomb, an act of terrorism, but to assert that an act of war on our own civilian population is a legitimate expression of an aggrieved and oppressed people?” If anyone here were actually arguing that you would be correct.
Careful reading shows that no one is seeking to legitimize the 911 attacks, but rather seeking an empirical and objective understanding of their cause. If someone pokes you in the nose because you insult him, the facts legitimize neither him/her striking you nor your insults. To deny the insult is hypocrisy.
“Is it hypocrisy to assert that Iran has legitimate defense interests in procuring nuclear weapons, but to call the only act of actually using them illegitimate? If the use of nuclear weapons is not legitimate, then how can Iran
David the thread is not so far off topic if we keep remebering we are examing the modus operandi of the God Squad. See this Jay, he is performing like a trouper, totally unprovable set of standard program ideas nad not a skerrick of actual Facts so far to back anything up. It is a completely faith based argument he is presenting and with a little patience and practice we can run this goat across the stage in all his finery and use him as a study in Faith Based Reasoning….... (What a Beautiful Oxymoron).
We are actually “RECKONING WITH THE GOD SQUAD”, which is the very topic in which we are engaged. Trust Rabbit. Even if it is not what Rabbit thinks, it is similar and we can use it.
Missed these Jay and they are such pearls they should not go unnoticed.
“Is it hypocrisy, in a time of war, to use a weapon, against an intransigent enemy, that kills 100,000 people but saves the lives of a million soldiers?
.......
Do you know of such a situation? Are you inferring that the “Accidental” murder of 150,000 (Is closer to truth) people in Iraq “So Far” has saved a Million Soldiers?
Can Jay add up? Are you on something Jay?
The troop numbers in Iraq have not been above 150,000 as far a Rabbit knows. Are you seriously convinced in your little dark cellar of a mind that all of these troops and another 6 times that number were likely to die in Iraq if those 150,000 “So Far” Iraq civilians had not died? Actually we need to calculate the future disease and Birth deformities etc which will plague Iraq forever now thanks to the means by which those deaths have occurred. Depleted Uranium!!!!
.....
.....
.....
PEOPLE…........What can Rabbit say?...It is not possible for Rabbit to express himself on a Public Forum, with his emotions unchecked. ....Discussing, actually having to debate the the horror, with self righteous C**TS like this is sometimews enough to send even Rabbit’s blood pressure through the roof.
..
One of these days Rabbit is going to put on his best “Anger and Loathing Face” take a picture and post it somewhere so it can be linked to in place of wholly inadequate words of outrage…........GRRRRR!
“Is it hypocrisy to criticize the current commander-in-chief for the deaths of 1800 soldiers, but to criticize a previous C-in-C for saving 1,000,000?”
....
The actual Death Toll of American Troops is long since in excess of 2000, Jay the FACT is it crossed the 2000 mark a month or more ago, officially. Since then all public discussion of the numbers, including on sites such as this, has remained hovering around the 1800-1900 level. ..............Has nobody else noticed this? It is quite weird to see, because even a rough estimate shows we cannot have been around the 1900 mark for more than a month. That does not of course include the deaths of service personell who die after leaving Iraq on the way to Germany. The actual US deaths are closer to 6, 000 by best estimates. The deaths of Non-american soldiers, ie South American Mercenaries and Mercs from all over, this is the biggest collection of mercenaries seen in a modern War thinks Rabbit, just a guess, but looks like it. Their deaths are not reported.
As for whatever previous Presidents you now want to discuss, get real Jay.
..
We don’t want to talk about Ancient Greek Philosophy, Buddha (Who is not a Hero, he was a shining one is all) or any other president than the one of the moment, unless it’s relevant.
What would be relevant would be an actual relevant FACT presented with a source from you, JAY…......
Today in America the best paid one-fifth of the population receives about one half of all national income, while the bottom one-fifth receives less than 4 per cent. The distribution of wealth in America is even more unbalanced. Here, the top one-half per cent of all property owners control over 25% of all wealth; while the top 5% sit on nearly 70% of wealth and property.
Behind this skewed distribution of wealth and income stand a few giant corporations who own or control nearly all newspapers, television networks and radio stations, movie companies, book publishers, and other sources of information and means of communication. Both of America’s major political parties, the Republicans and the Democrats, are dependent on these corporations and the few super-rich individuals and families associated with them. In fact, nearly all major offices in the US government, whether elected or appointed, are filled by individuals from this corporate network.
What chance does democracy have under such conditions? What chance does a true free market have under such conditons? Mussolini once said that fascism would better be called “corporatism” since it was the combined control of an authoritarian government and “business” leadership. We are talking here, Jay, not of servants of the people, but of masters. Few are aware of or can remember how in the 1930s so many Americans viewed economic fascism as the wave of the future, and a version of this “planned capitalism” still prevails today, primary for the benefit of large established corporations.
Just more grist for the mill, Jay.
JAY CLINE says:
“Still, conclusions without facts is a no-no, per our furry moderator.“since you have gotten the idea here”
..
Excellent, you have almost got it, it is close and we’ll run with it Jay.
..Now the second half of the idea, (odd Rabbit did not realise it could be split, like the atom I guess) FACTS need to be established via SOURCES if they are challenged.
Rabbit dares to speak on behalf of many when he challenges all your facts. All of the things you wish to say are facts, ARE NOT. PROVE IT, or SHOVE IT…..
ljwhit,
Are you saying it is a crime to pursue al Qaeda? How so? Is it a crime to arrest criminals? Do not police employ force to arrest criminals? Do we arrest the police for breaking and entering when executing an arrest warrant? And to answer the inevitable question, yes, I see America as the de facto world police. If not us, then who? If not now, when?
So, it is hypocrisy to attempt to prevent nuclear proliferation? Just because we have them, so must everyone else? It’d be great if we could put the genie in the bottle. Stupidity and suicide are greater sins than hypocrisy.
Terrorism is never legitimate. Terrorist are not freedom fighters, or vis versa. Acts of terrorism are acts of terrorism.
How could the American colonists be considered terrorism? What act did they perform that was terrorism?
Japan was far from defeated. Japan was digging in; recently declassified radio intercepts confirm that. They also show Germany was shipping nuclear materials via submarine to Japan so they could build a radiological device, a dirty nuclear bomb. Is your argument dependent on Japan being already defeated, or does your logic stand even with an intransigent enemy? And if it does, what should Truman have done?
And to the morality of an unequal distribution of wealth, I have already made the argument that the 20th century success stories were by and large democratic and free market solutions.
On a more personal note: Abraham Lincoln was born in very modest surroundings and became one of our most famous presidents; Mark Twain (born a poor Samuel Clemens) became one of America’s most beloved and honored humorists; Paul Allen was born to a middle class family whose father worked at a library and has since become one of the richest men in the world; Steven Jobs’ father was a Syrian-American professor and founded Apple Computer; John D. Rockerfeller started modestly and got rich in oil and founded the Rockerfeller dynasty; J.P Morgan started with a silver spoon in his mouth and soon far eclipsed his father; John Jacob Astor was born to a butcher in Germany and made a fortune in the fur trade; Benjamin Franklin was the son of a candle maker and became one of America’s most highly honored founding fathers; Frank Lloyd Wright grew up in a Wisconsin farming town and became the most famous architect of our time; Henry H. Rogers’ father was a small-town grocer and made a fortune in oil after pooling $600 of his own cash with a partner into an oil refinery, making $30,000 in their first year; Horatio Alger epitomized and memorialized the American rags-to-riches story.
I think American democracy and American market economics have more than proven their chances.
And that is what is called cold hard facts.
Rabbit,
Put up or shut up.
Your shrieking calls for facts belay the fact that the facts you present are mere opinions and you have yet to provide facts.
Bite me, you overgrown rodent.
David,
Thank you for clarifying that is your opinion. Too many people here are presenting their conclusions as facts. For example, the continued repetition that 9/11 was orchestrated by high level US officials without providing a shred of evidence. With regard to your opinion, I believe you are wrong and will continue to believe that until you provided substantive evidence to the contrary. But, just because our opinions differ, does not put are beliefs on an equal basis. You must provide the facts proving U.S. involvement in 9/11. As Lincoln once said, I cannot prove a negative. That is illogical.
David,
Correction. That should read,
does not put our beliefs on an equal basis.
LB,
LB,
If we are going after the wrong group of terrorists, then who are the right ones. Again, the only argument being made here is with references to facts without actually providing them.
Thank you for the conditional agreement on dropping the bombs on Japan. When evidence is presented that this was not the case, I’ll address it.
I disagree about your Careful analysis comment. ljwhit used the A-bomb reference to argue against the morality of American actions in the Middle East after 9/11 and bunny face has argued that America has no legitimate reason for accusing Middle East terrorists for 9/11 or for attacking Iraq. Bunny face has explicitly argued that Middle East hatred legitimatizes the act. It doesn’t take careful reading. Just a basic ability to read English.
Legitimacy is at the core of the argument and has been invoked on both sides of the argument here.
And I do not hear the whisper. Your argument implies that if it is ok for cops to carry guns, then why can’t criminals. No hypocrisy there.
To all,
I apologize for my crude remarks to the Rabbit. But as Bill Moyers has said here,
bullies cannot be appeased. they must be confronted
What the heck just happened?.........
Testing?
Jay, Did you blow a fuse or something?
What the heck just happened? David?
Ljwhit?
Jay why can’t you just behave like a sensible perosn and debate?
.
.You can get the hang of it, Facts supported by Sources…Justify your opinions.
I am here. Just catching up on the thread.
Collecting my thoughts.
Luminous Beauty is Gloriously Bright.
.. is it IJWHIT or LJWHIT? l and I look the same in the font being used.
Now that you mention it David, it is a lousy font, and it isthis and the format which authors much of Rabbit’s efforts to…....
.
—-Communicate clearly.
..
Whit it is then.
Unless we are put to rights by the trully enlightened Whit.
.
Now what happened to the thread?
Jay all of your remarks have been CRUDE in any normal meaning of the word, which specific words are you now refferring to?
..
Nobody else here thinks you are worth taking seriously or deserving of politeness at this point either suspects Rabbit, so don’t assume because Rabbit is taking the most Bites out of you, others could care less how you carry on at this point we are ready for anything…......
Jay, I can’t provide you with any facts or substantive evidence since I am not a member on the 9/11 Commission or any other organization that investigated the matter. I can examine the evidence, circumstantial and direct, presented by both the official investigation and the evidence, circumstantial and direct, presented by independent investigators. Some evidence is credible and some is not.
Don’t you have any doubts at all about any of the official story of 9/11?
Is in not possible that there is a coverup?
Jay, have you examined the evidence that independant investigators have presented?
Or do you just not consider it out of hand?
Don’t you think that there are some questions that the 9/11 commission convenienlty ignored in their investigation?
Ah…Now I see. If Rabbit seemied a bit confused the posts on this page it is because the whole early thread suddenly dissapeaderd from one refresh to the next, Rabbit thought Jay had said something over the top and had the thread pulled or something.
Now I can see his rambling LIES in all their nakedness.
You lost your arms too, nothing anybody needs to do to prove you an idiot Jay Boy.
If we are going after the wrong group of terrorists, then who are the right ones. Again, the only argument being made here is with references to facts without actually providing them.
....
NO NO NO you damned fool, you are destroying whole countries in the name of some half assed ideas about who might actually have had anything to do with them. We are attacking an innocent party to any IMAGINARY bogey men you care to come up with.
You have been given FACTS presented with Sources and what have you got? NOthing so don’t come roundtalking about things of which you know nothing.
Where are any actual sources for all your grand facts?
You have been presented with FACTS by others who have not gone to the trouble to source them yet but they can and will if you ask.
When does Jay stop pretending to be a man and actually “PUT UP”..... You are a supreme numbskull and a craven coward, you have proven nothing but your own lack of clues.
Others can mess about with your little half assed opinions you call Facts, but Rabbit waits for a single reference to anything which shows you are anything but a pitiful boastful worm at heart…YOU grubby thing, you look more wormlike and slimy as you duck and dive from every straight request. You like to sling insults too but just can’t seem to get it up today, so how about saying some FACT proves any opinion you care to name and prove your damned FACT…........
...
Does this dimwit even understand that what makes a FACT, a FACT is the FACT that it can be proven?..
...
He doesn’t get it does he?
Thank you for the conditional agreement on dropping the bombs on Japan. When evidence is presented that this was not the case, I
Sorry some of that JAY crap came out as Rabbit’s words they are not. So just to deal with them.
.
“disagree about your Careful analysis comment. ljwhit used the A-bomb reference to argue against the morality of American actions in the Middle East after 9/11”...
..
WHAT?
——-“and bunny face has argued that America has no legitimate reason for accusing Middle East terrorists for 9/11 or for attacking Iraq.
.
Bunny FAce?....Jay is a poobum!
—-“Bunny face has explicitly argued that Middle East hatred legitimatizes the act.”
..
You bloody lunatic…........Bunny Face has not explicitly argued any such thing, you…you…nincompoop!
——“It doesn
David,
You are a gentleman. I apologize if you got caught in the line of fire during my moment of pique.
There would be three points I would bring up in response to your questions:
First, I would not characterize the 9/11 Commission as the “Official” investigation, but only in the sense that it gives the Commission authoritative status that they did not live up to. Yes, it sounds like hair splitting, but it is a difference that makes a difference. And I personally so love splitting hairs.
The Administration, the Executive Branch, certainly disagreed with much of what was criticized, left out and recommended by the report; the Legislative Branch was, and still is, of many minds about the subject. The fact that one Commission member was intimately involved in pre 9/11 decisions (Jamie Gorelick) and did not recuse herself is troubling and casts doubt, in my mind and in light of subsequent revelations that I will discuss shortly, of the veracity and integrity of the investigation.
Second, the Commission was made up of equal representation from both political parties. I do not begrudge the very successful efforts the Commission made in remaining nonpartisan, but I fear that the conflicting priorities of investigation and politics rendered the Commission impotent. It is certainly telling that very little new information came out of the report. At best, it was a compilation of what was already known and what had already been agreed upon on what needed to be done. Everybody got something, but ultimately nobody really got anything of substance.
Third, the fact that the successes of the data mining operation of Able Danger and information about Iran’s support role in the operation were available to the Commission, and not used, deeply troubles me. One of the most scathing criticisms from the Commission was that the mindset of the intel community allowed critical information to be discounted and ignored simply because the information didn’t fit the world view of most intelligence people. The facts didn’t fit the prevailing theories so the facts were ignored. Unfortunately, this is where the Commission fails on two critical points. They saved their harshest criticism for the only actors in the play who had no political clout, and the Commission themselves are guilty of the same sins of fitting facts to theories.
The Commission discounted intel, that was widely available before the Commission started, of the links between al Qaeda and Saddam. This information has never been properly refuted and the Czech government who reported it have not wavered from their initial reports. The Commission completely ignored any intel that pointed a finger at Iran providing transportation and logistic support, including 15 of the 19 hijackers who served as muscle men, taking over the aircrafts so Atta and his pilots could fly the planes.
My take on this (that means opinion to anyone who can’t tell the difference) is this was all political. Many people are afraid that Bush will rush America into attacking another country (Syria, Iran, North Korea are prime candidates) and the Commission didn’t want to give Bush the rhetoric ammo he would need to push for such an event.
Having said that, I generally do agree and accept what the Commission report says. They just didn’t say enough.
Jay you are an idiot and you don’t deserve any respect, suck up to folks all you want, you are not winning any ground and you are a coward as well as a dunce with no facts.
Your entire last post is a load of speculative, innacurate generalised and totally unsupported garbage. There is not even anything worth responding to. Not a single claim of a Fact and as usual just your opinions dressed up in a hat which says FACT.
You are a credit to nothing, thank God Bush has only got Brain dead twerps like you to back him.
Did you not hear yet that the 19 alleged hijackers were not real, and Rabbit has gioven sevral sources for the fact.
So without sources for your claims you are just lying. Seven are alive and well, how does that permit of them being suicide terrorists?
Not the sort of detail you would let get in the way of a good lie though eh?
Where do you get the “theory” that anybody acted as muscle men to help take over any planes? are you psychotic? do you have dreams which reveal these things to you? A special frog who only you can see maybe?
What basis do you use to conclude that any terrorists actually took over any planes on 911? Rabbit asks because he has never ever seen or heard of any.
David and others please do not lower yourselves by allowing this idiot to keep on spinning his faith based crap, he is making fools of anybody who takes him seriously, Rabbit is off to bed, but will be dissappointed with any who allow this ridiculous fool to keep pretending his word gives credence to anything without sources when he is specifically being asked to prove his alleged facts.
We have heard this bleating before, well it’s time these clowns were made to follow the same rules of logic and reason as we expect of each other. If he has nothing buit opinions with no provable Facts of substance thenm treat the little weasel with the contempt he desrves.
To do less is contemptible of itself and only encourages the creep.
He actually thinks he’s getting his “message” through to you, and he has the temerity to ignore structured and sourced debate, calling it stupid with a flick of his omniscient wrist.
Then for an encore Jay spouts self contradictory opinions and says see the perfect argument I have created, are you stupid Liberals not impressed with my superior reasoning sklills. Jays FACTS are so perfect that evrybody knows them and they don’t need proof.
You are a TWAT Jay and contemptible. You are welcome to your opinions but you have only got the opinions you have been given by others. No reason at all.
You are pregnant but it isn’t your baby, you are just a surrogate for Dubya and the Devil.
A mind whore….............................................................With the Pox.
By the way Jay stop preening. You keep going on about some supposedly insulting remarks you made to Rabbit, as if you did. Rabbit never noticed anything and cannot help but wonder what you seem so proud of. Doubt anybody else noticed anthing special, everything you have said has been pitiful honestly and if anybody is insulted by your poncing and prancing, it is your mother. If you had any worth you would be devaluing your self too but it probably isn’t an issue.
So relax little one, you have neither annoyed or insulted Rabbit.
Rabbit is not sorry that you find him so aggravating though because Rabbit can see you are a piece of muck and need to be scraped off the floor, just for the tidiness factor.
Jay writes : ” David, You are a gentleman. I apologize if you got caught in the line of fire during my moment of pique. “
Thank you for the compliment, I do try to be a gentleman. No apology required, getting caught in the line of fire comes with the territory, but thank you for the consideration.
Please do not take my criticism too harshly but the points you raised, while cogent, are relatively unimportant compared to the larger issue of prior knowledge, within the USA government, of the 9/11 attacks.
Some observations and questions I have about the events of 9/11 and the investigation of the same are as follows :
There is evidence of airline stock transactions that preceded the 9/11 attacks that would strongly suggest prior knowledge of the impending attacks. Was Osama bin Laden responsible for the huge spike in “put options” on airline stocks preceding 9/11? Or someone else?
On the morning of 9/11 there were several US war games in operation. Some were simulations of plane hijackings. These drills paralyzed the response of the Air Force, FAA, NORAD, etc. Was Osama bin Laden coordinating these war games and drills, and subsequent stand down, as a cover for the hijackings on the morning of 9/11? Or someone else?
The World Trade Center Twin Towers and adjacent building no.7 collapsed on 9/11 in a manner which, based on scientific facts, refutes the “official theory” of the collapses and suggests the collapses were likely the result of controlled demolitions. Was Osama bin Laden capable of arranging for a controlled demolition to collapse those buildings on 9/11? Or someone else?
Jay writes:
“If we are going after the wrong group of terrorists, then who are the right ones. Again, the only argument being made here is with references to facts without actually providing them.”
You might consider reading the links that GhostRabbit has so generously provided. These are the references to facts to which you are stubbornly oblivious.
” Thank you for the conditional agreement on dropping the bombs on Japan. When evidence is presented that this was not the case, I
“Legitimacy is at the core of the argument and has been invoked on both sides of the argument here.”
It isn’t but you would like it to be. You cannot dictate terms nor their meanings or interpretations in an open debate. These things must be negotiated in an atmosphere of intellectual honesty. A concept you have shown no evidence of comprehending. Nor have you shown any familiarity with the rigors of logical thought. Just a propensity for tossing out spurious rhetoric and an unerring habit of avoidance when someone calls you on it.
“And I do not hear the whisper. Your argument implies that if it is ok for cops to carry guns, then why can
Rabbit has already posted sources for who was doing the trading prior to 911.
Rabbit thinks you are giving this dimwitted one too much rope, he will only get tangled up in more rope, best to keep him on a short leash and then he can’t start running all over the place.
Lastly, make him source his FACTS. He is not worthy of respect if he continues to avoid sourcing. He thinks he is GOD and letting him say anything without sourcing is encouraging this belief. HE is a fantasist.
Sorry David, but this one disgusts Rabbit more than most for some reason. He is a Pox.
Good night again.
Luminous and lovely one, bless your heart. Rabbit can sleep in peace now.
Good point, Rabbit. (Boy this thread has GROWN since last I posted.. it’s enormous!)
I expect we’re all “in the thick” of things now.
I never used to want to say, Rab, where I came from, except that I wasn’t American, because there used to be some awful, quite sinister trolls on this site…
But the worst seem to have gone now - along with some of my old friends on here!
OK then: I hail from the British Isles… but have no British ancestry!
Doesn’t Pat Robertson look evil, by the way?
I’m gonna post that pic on a Christian blog…
Rabbit, you’re getting too excited on this thread - and don’t bite people’s limbs off!! Otherwise, the only rabbit you’re going to end up being like is General Woundwort - a case of our becoming what we hate the most.
Okay, Rabbit, etc…. WHIT it is then…
Jay, here is my opinion of you, at this point: To your resentment-filled little ego this is but a desperate game. You like all the attention and you take sadistic little pleasures in fucking with people whose ideas threaten and anger you. Maybe because that’s the best you’ve got. I dunno, but you seem to have little integrity and a much contracted mind when it comes to objectively pursuing the truth. ‘Not to say that you are automatically or necessarily wrong, just that you have a lot of avoidance to going places where your bullshit might not hold up. Wake up, Jay; being “right” is a game of the self-righteous ego hiding its pain, fear, and anger/hatred. This is not pleasing to God… Many will go before Him crying My God, My God, and He will not know them. While, in your imagination, Jay, you may seem to prevail… you get only to be “dead” right. Only the truth can set you free, and give you radiant life.
Again, Jay, about the stats on distribution of wealth: I asked that you provide me with your stat info and cite the sources for checking. I have not seen a straightforward response to that suggestion. I was unable to retrieve the article from which I had gotten my original info regarding “financial” wealth (0.25% / 50%); However, I did go online and research the matter again… and that accounts for the recent update/change in info. In fact, the best info sources I could find seemed to converge on this overview: the top 1% has 1/3 of the wealth in the country, the next highest 9% have another 1/3, and the bottom 90% get to fight over the remaining 1/3. If this picture is to you proof of how well our current corrupt syste (not a real free market) works, then it is my opinion that you should pull your head out of the dark place. My opinion: We all do better, when we All do better. You may be busy clutching you little piece of the pie and feeling superior because there are a lot of poor bastards who have done less-well than you. I have a vision for a harmonious world where obsolete forms of the struggle for survival are not deliberately perpetuated in service of the greedy.
Let’s get it straight, Jay, I’m not trying to bullshit you here, I’m trying to get real. And you seem to be being a real shithead about it, constantly using the diversion of quibbling about trivia but avoiding getting real about the issues. You strain out the fly, Jay, but swallow the camel.
About the events of 9-11 and related matters: If you are open to learning new information what you seem not yet to know, regardless of how you might in the end evaluate it, let me suggest to you for starters some books (and they are well referenced and chock-full of citations for sources… so you could check out the info):
“On Bullshit” by Harry Frankfurt
“The War on Freedom” by Nafeez Mosaddeq Ahmed
“The New Pearl Harbor” by David Ray Griffin
“Inside Job” by Jim Marrs
“Crossing the Rubicon” by Michael Ruppert
Now Mike Ruppert is the guy that you will just want to go crazy trying to scream away as a conspiracy nut. Only… only he has been very meticulous about doing his homework, J… his book is very well referenced.
Each of these books, J, has some difference… in emphasis, in info (possibly even some contradictions), etc… but they essentially converge on the point that in your great faith-based, unreferenced wisdom you want to avoid, that shatters the hub of all your spin,...the possibility that our nation was conned by 9-11 and that the greedy bastards who own our government are more ruthless and callous than will allow you your gibberish-filled slumber.
Jay;
As a courtesy I have copied a list of references made by GhostRabbit to support his arguments. I don’t expect you to have the perspicacity to go back and try and understand the precise nature of his contentions and how he uses these references as support. Just read the reports. It is the only text thus far established as a factual basis of argument. When and if you deign to provide some putatively authoritative reference of your own to back up your assertions then some debate over whose facts are most cogent can proceed as anything other than a dick-wagging contest.
....http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/september2004/12090 04stillinsists.htm
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...http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/march2005/210305real lidentity.htm
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...http://prisonplanet.com/seven_of_the_wtc_hijackers_found_ _alive.html. http:/
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/www.prisonplanet.com/saudis_paid_bin_laden_200m.html
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...http://www.prisonplanet.com/new_revelations_on_911.htm
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...http://prisonplanet.com/bush_senior_in_business_with_bin_ _laden.html
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...http://www.prisonplanet.com/
the_bush_bin_laden_money_conn nection.html
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.......http://prisonplanet.com/profits_of_death_insider_trad ding_and_9_11.html
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... http://prisonplanet.com/profits_of_death_part_2_trading_with h_the_enemy.html
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...http://prisonplanet.com/profits_of_death_part_3.html
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....http://prisonplanet.com/suppresed_details_insider_tradin ng_cia.html
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....http://prisonplanet.com/weve_hit_the_targets.html
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...http://www.prisonplanet.com/prior_knowledge_of_sept_11_no ot_just_urban_legend.htm
Good one WHIT;
Will it inspire our good troll to actually do a little research rather than spout truisms and conventional opinion. I rather doubt it.
David,
My gut reaction to your observations is that the first two, without knowing more detail, could very easily be and, in the absence of any substantive evidence, very probably is coincidence. But one would have to gather info on the history of such events and do some statistical comparison. Can you give me a little more detail or reference points for further research, especially on the stock options? Skepticism does not equate to closed-mindedness.
Having spent time in the military and participating in too many alerts and exercises, I can only say I do not find it surprising that at any given moment in time there is a military exercise going on somewhere. But that is not meant to be a repudiation of your question. I just don’t find the coincidence too incredible. Many battles have been lost or won on such circumstances.
The military has been engaged in terrorist simulations since at least the early 80s, when I was in the service. And in the late 90s, intel did manage to catch wind of al Qaeda planning to hijack about a dozen aircraft simultaneously. If there is one thing the military is, is they are conservative and love war games. It is not surprising that the military developed such scenerios and wargamed them to death. But, it is a remarkable coincidence.
The controlled demolition theory I have heard and have summarily dismissed as not only lacking in any evidence whatsoever, but also the assertion that scientific facts refutes the official theory of the collapse is baseless. What specifically do you believe, or have you heard, that just couldn’t have happened the way it happened?
Briefly, the bombing of the WTC in 1993 showed that even a single large explosion, one large enough to dig a whole several stories deep, was not enough to even do much, if any, structural damage to the building. So, it would require a controlled sequence of explosions, similar to legitimate modern demolitions that we have all seen.
Not only did the numerous video from the collapse show no signs of sequenced, staged, percussive explosions, but the science required for both buildings to collapse from the top down is not outrageous. The intense heat of the resulting jet fuel fires has been demonstrated as being sufficient to soften the steel supports at altitude. Once the top 20 or 40 stories started to drop, the kinetic energy of their falling overcame the structural resistance at each level. Each floor added to that energy, resulting in the collapse.
One argument I have heard repeated over and over is that as the building collapsed, it was remarkable that the buildings didn’t tip over. Actually, it isn’t so remarkable. The buildings collapsed from the top down, not from the bottom up. As each floor collapsed the building shrank. There was never much torque one way or another to tip the building over. But, watch the video. It didn’t come straight down. There was tippage. Adjacent buildings were damaged, far more than would be allowed for normal demolitions.
The telling point for me on this is that as the building collapsed, you don’t see windows blowing out, floor by floor, that you would expect to see with controlled demolitions.
But, if you have other info, I’d be happy to hear about it.
Luminous Beauty is luminous indeed… and a beauty.
J has managed to frustrate you too. He must have great slurping pleasure… sooo much attention. But to suggest that J is in a dick-wagging contest. No! This passive-aggressive character is dickless in his heart, mind, and soul. He can wag only his tongue.
prisonplanet.com
give me a break.
Next thing they’ll be saying is that the Indian Ocean Tsunami was a deliberate act of war using massive weather machines.
Oh, wait. They are already saying that.
Silly me.
lb,
“Japan was probably prepared to surrender on conditional terms-but the United States would accept only unconditional surrender.”
Probably? If I use the word probably, would you believe me? Japan was probably stalling, hoping the Americans would lose their resolve and turn tail and run.
I am not saying it is true. But it probably is as true as what you claim.
Those same intercepts clearly show Japan was digging in for a final victory or death struggle.
Read that and weep.
whit,
Thanks for doing your homework. Your statitics now match the statistics that I provided a couple days ago.
Question. Seriously. At what level do you believe those statisics wuld be reasonably equitable?
Posting Security