Torture is much in the news these days. “We do not torture,” President George Bush declared last month, after the Washington Post revealed that the CIA maintains an international archipelago of covert prisons where it can torture terror suspects. News of these secret torture chambers has added new ammunition to critics’ charges that the Bush administration condoned torture at Abu… return to article
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Reader Comments (74)Page 1 of 1 pagesAny characterization of any group of people as “other” by one or more other groups of people acts pretty much the same way. Degrees vary. The bars for “acceptable” risks, damages, harm, and insult varies widely across the economic and social classes.
The game is pretty much always the same. Divide and conquer is always a strategy for maintaining dominance. Have the slaves enslave and whip themselves.
How many books and dissertations have been done on Daley’s and the Chicago police?
I digress.
I agree that African-Americans have suffered and are currently suffering far more in the Unites States’ penal system by a landslide---for than any other class of U.S. citizens.
However, I beg to differ with the idea that Guantanomo Bay is “a pale reflection” of the torture of American citizens by American citizens or agencies.
The Iraqis are ten kinds of “other” to the American military, which has a hell of a lot more ammunition than even the Chicago police force, and they work longer hours for less pay.
Posted by wileywitch on Dec 7, 2005 at 1:23 PM “I agree that African-Americans have suffered and are currently suffering far more in the Unites States’ penal system by a landslide”
I personally think it is primarily a class thing, not a race issue. OJ being a famous example of a Negro who got away with murder (i suppose M Jackson got away with crimes too, but i don’t think any race wants to claim him!).
On the other hand, any subculture that denigrates education (say as a “white thing") will tend to keep its own population in the lower classes. . .
Posted by wolf on Dec 7, 2005 at 2:56 PM By it’s very nature, the issue of blacks being overwhelmingly overrepresented in prison populations is a race issue. Race is a class issue. I don’t think the black imprisonment rates can be resolved without specifically addressing racism and how it is manifested in the legal system.
The point I wanted to make was that the Iraqi people are suffering far more torture, murder, and other ills being done to them right now than any thing even this racist nation would allow for its own citizens as “normal” or “staying the course” or whatever euphemism is to be used for an aggressive attack, followed by a thoroughly corrupt, inept, and brutal occupation.
Posted by wileywitch on Dec 7, 2005 at 10:00 PM Then, yesterday, on Democracy Now, I heard testimony from New Orleans African-Americans talking about concentration camps they were put into where they were separated from family members, that many were still searching for.
As loosely as I use quotation marks, I’m not going to put quotes around that term because I don’t want the term to be drawn into question. What they described did indeed sound like a concentration camp, and all people responsible for these conditions and for treating people this way should be removed from positions of authority and public trust, and prosecuted in whatever way would work in this system.
And the survivors need to hear a formal apology from someone representing this nation who was not in an office or limosine while New Orleans drowned.
Posted by wileywitch on Dec 10, 2005 at 11:13 AM Were only colored folk put in “concentration camps”? How many died in the camps? Where were these camps and for how long were the “victims”: put there?
Posted by wolf on Dec 12, 2005 at 10:22 AM For what purpose do you want quantification? For validation?
It amazes me how often Umerricans ask for quantification to validate or justify something---a nation that hardly believes in mathematics.What is it about numbers that you believe will prove or disprove the existence and exercise of extreme racism and sadism in specific instances?
From whence comes all this innocence and disbelief, Wolf? You’ve seen the pictures.
Posted by wileywitch on Dec 12, 2005 at 8:09 PM “a nation that hardly believes in mathematics.”
Being a physicist myself, this generalization totally fails with me. :)
Actually, you are correct in one regard. I simply do not believe that the expression “concentration camps” is useful or justifiable. Very short term refugee camps maybe. These camps helped people a great deal. They should be rather grateful for the assistance. Furthermore, they were helping those who could not help themselves - which is largely the poor. Just as NO was largely black, so were the displaced. Of course, many were also white.
Whatever “extreme racism and sadism” took place was the fault of flawed individuals, nothing more. Why exaggerate it to make it more than it was?
(What is an “Umerrican”?)
Posted by wolf on Dec 13, 2005 at 9:47 AM WOLF: Give ‘em a break. Those that say concentration camps are NOT being literal. They are using the term to dramatize the horrible treatment they have experienced RELATIVE to what the standard was in past for victims of natural disasters.
Exxaggeration is a common technique to draw Attn. to a problem.
My feeling is you are offended, because you feel it diminishes the true horrers of that those of concentration camps during WWII. Some fear allowing casual comparisons to those hell on earth conditions will render the term meaningless for remembering the evil as it truly was.
I beg to differ. The fact that people do use it to describe suffering means they DO remember. They are using the term properly, because it describes the worst suffering they can imagine and have endured.
In their own world what they experienced,
Surviving a disaster, and barely surviving for several days afterwards in horrifying conditions until the were rescued or died;
neighbors turning their back on them in their greatest hour of need
The Gov’t. saying the problem does not exist.
Losing their homes;
Losing EVERYTHING they had
Shipped off in buses to far away places to live at the mercy of strangers;
PREVENTED from returning to their homes, because it’s either been destroyed or designated for destruction;
Kids forcefully seperated from families.
Older folk never seen again.
Those that were working are now jobless. It’s something NO GROUP has experienced in this nation in modern memory.
When looking at that list, it’s no wonder those victims draw a paralell to the holocaust. The reasons are different but many of the experiences are the same.
Any nonsense about helping yourself in such a situation shows a total lack of awareness of what experiences like this do to a person. When people suffer a series of calamities like this, their ability to cope is dramatically diminished. Without help many will flounder for the rest of their lives. The fact that many were poor already makes this almost a certainty.
Just because the cause is nature and not anti-semitism doesn’t make the suffering better or easier to endure.
Just because the causitive factor is negligence and not blatent anti-semitism doesn’t make the losses more pleasant.
To the victims it feels the same as what they were told was the experience in the concentration camps, because their suffering was compounded many times over by the negligence and incompetence of FEMA and other Federal Gov’t. agencies who have been in charge of handling such disasters for a long time. The state could not do it’s part, because it’s Nat’l. Guard is Iraq.
This hell was NOT the result of a few individuals any more than WWII was the result of a few misguided or uncaring individuals.
To say they feel like concentration camp victms is to use the term as accurately as it can be in our nation.
Posted by johnnyincentx on Dec 13, 2005 at 1:22 PM “I don’t think the black imprisonment rates can be resolved without specifically addressing racism and how it is manifested in the legal system.”
Wileywatch, your statement caught my eye. The article’s author, Muwakkil, is studying that question, according to his bio. He is studying gang members and former inmates who have become community leaders.
Because such a high percentage of the prison population is black, they are a more important political voice among blacks than excons are or would be in the general population. Black politicians can’t and don’t ignore them.
Because of this, the seeds of reform of the criminal justice system will undoubtedly rise out of black political circles.
Americans are smarting from the erosion of the middle class status that used to insulate them from harsh injustices and are feeling uncomfortable about a cultural and government committment to individual rights that increasingly is amounting to little more than a conceit.
Some convergence could happen, sparking momentum unless something comes along to take the pressure off.
Posted by marge on Dec 14, 2005 at 12:03 AM PS to Muwakkil—feel free to use my ideas. I am too dangerous to ungag, and dead anyway, so have at it.
Posted by marge on Dec 14, 2005 at 12:19 AM To answer your question, I use “Ummericun” to separate it from the term “American” which pretty much includes people and things of the North and South continents of America.
It seems to me that a physicist would know better than anyone that atoms existed long before they were numbered.
Personal question---feel free not to answer, but I’m wondering if you’re Libertarian. It appears that you consider the individual to be the alpha and omega.
Posted by wileywitch on Dec 15, 2005 at 12:56 AM Johnincentx, the thoughfulness and diplomacy of your post is nice.
Posted by wileywitch on Dec 15, 2005 at 1:13 AM Wolf, once in a while Rabbit finds your posts to be astoundingly ....poignant. Mostly you are a drongo,...... but there are times when the rabbit has to admire the man beneath the mask. You and he could have enjoyed a good night out on the town at some stage of our respective lives thinks the Rabbit. They would have been telling the story for years afterwards.
When Wolf and Rabbit came to town. Lock up your daughters and your best stash, find your best whisky and get ready for a great bash. .... hee hee....
Yes, it seems unlikely any race is likely to lay claim to Michael Jackson
He represents the nearest thing to a new species we have probably spawned in a few hundred thousand years.
Wonder what colour his kids will eventually be.
Still reading down the thread and thinking, but hopefully Wolf isn’t picking any fights with Wiley. She can handle any old Wolf, and she aint half tough.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Dec 15, 2005 at 5:34 AM Wolf just because you are a physicist, that equals one American, out of 160 million. That doesn’t actually register much, although I think you meant that the generalisation does not therefore apply to you? If so it doesn’t change the generalisation. Rabbit is actually interested to know if you dispute the contention, because it is a new one on me, but I would be inclined to go with it, for a few reasons.
Thanks to Johnny, Rabbit does not need to go into the rest of the post, but it is hoped that you would pay close attention to what he has said, for it is relevant and is the answer to what you are saying. In fact Rabbit awards a Golden Bunny, to “Johnnyincentx” for concise, topical preciseness.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Dec 15, 2005 at 5:45 AM It is not the desire of this rabbit to single out Wolf, for any ill treatment, and this is not why Rabbit would raise this. In fact it is for the edification and hopefully enlightenment of Wolf he raises the following.
The actual reason that Wolf is objecting to the use of the term Concentration Camps, can be intuited in his other statements. However, if one goes back to the threads about Katrina when it was happening, some considerable insight can be gained into our canine friend’s attitudes towards those of a darker hue. It is firmly ensconced in Wolf’s mind, that the race in question is substantially inferior, and that their generally poor staus is proof of this. Wolf has never put it quite so bluntly, but he continually questions issues on this basis.
Wolf is a fine fellow for that, bigotry is a disease, and it is not cured overnight. Most of us, certainly those who are Aussie, Canadian, or American (Ummerican).......and of a pale complexion will have been brought up with the usual stereotypes and thus inbuilt bigotry. It takes time and experience especially to alter such profound influences as our culture and parents. Rabbit grew up in ignoranceof “Coons”. Australian Aborigines. ,Stories not too old, of men who used to shoot Aborigines from the back of trucks for sport. How true were these stories I cannot say, but it wasn’t the point. Rabbit never thought twice about it. Funny, ha ha.
Today, rabbit would count one of the oldest tribes in Oz as his special life long friends, and he would stand by the side of the Blackfellas, and fight to expel the “Whiteys” if they so chose.
They are the oldest culture on the planet, they have existed in a form of co-existence with the land, in a stable and healthy stae, fotr at least 40,000 years. They know things we have not even learned yet, and they have clearly passed through at least one decimation of the world unchanged.
It is impossible to describe Rabbit’s relationship to these friends, they are masters of some things, ancient traditions, knowledge and yet so primitiv. They have stripped away all the bullshit tens of thousands of years ago and will not, cannot accept our rubbish material spark in the night culture as anything likely to remain long enough for them to bother adjusting to.
Guys our culture, such as it is, is measured in hundreds of years. Even the old conflicts which have transcended cultural evolution, are only a few thousand years old. The Australian Aborigine, was living as well and happily, for tens of thousands of years before Christ was born, they have remained unchanged ever since, a couple of thousand years is nothing. Now in the last couple of hundred years, our culture comes along and they clash with it. We also have a massively unbalanced Prison population, of Blacks.
Here at least it is easy to see who is wrong, finally despite my typically bigoted upbringing and culture.
What my family bigoted? Don’t ask them, they have any number of stories of how they have helped aborigines in their church lives and various charitable functions.
That is the point though. It is still an us and them, they need this special help because they are different. It never occurs to us that the system, everything from the day we are born, relegates these people to a second, somehow handicapped class.
Oh you poor thing.............look at the colour of your skin........ Poor poor dear, come and let us help you to adjust to how people with the right coloured skin live.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Dec 15, 2005 at 6:22 AM That hopefully shows how far Rabbit has come from being born with a heriditary disease, to recognising the disease, to overcoming it. Today Rabbit has put all forms of bigotry behind him with two exceptions. There is no pre-judgement of others as being less for being different. Rabbit meets more alien cultures with genuine excitement and joy in variety, so long as they can feel the same.
The two forms of Rabbit Bigotry?
Rabbit really hates:
---Bigots. (Stupid wankers)
---Clowns. (Scary, unfunny, C*NTS, with weird noses)
Posted by GhostRabbit on Dec 15, 2005 at 6:23 AM Rabbit is transplanting his last post to his field for some embellishment relative to another issue, for his friends who are interested.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Dec 15, 2005 at 6:27 AM wileywitch - at various points in my life i have held different political views. Libertarian was very appealing to me many years back, but it is clear to me that taken to extremes it would be a terrible system. Today i am much more of a pragmatist.
One of the problems that i perceive in our society is the overwhelming sense of entitlement many people have. This is in stark contrast to times past, where people in need would actually refuse charity, out of a sense of pride. In my opinion, we would be better off somewhere in between these two extreme views. So that people would have a strong social desire to contribute, but would be able to accept help when needed without stigma (either internal or foisted upon them by society).
While it is clear that both the local and the federal govenment failed in their response to Kartina, help was given out. It continues to this day. For that, i think the victims should be grateful. Of course, we should try to improve our emergency system as well (Brown was a scandel, and Nagle is incompentent).
Anyway, i enjoy seeing the opinions of others who think and feel very differently from me. Thanks for clearing up the word Ummerican for me. Best wishes to you and yours.
Posted by wolf on Dec 15, 2005 at 9:40 AM I don’t know, Wolfgang. For all you’re professed centrist pragmatism, you seem to give a lot of uncritical credence to right-wing spin. To wit: that much of the failure of the response to Katrina was due to Mayor Nagle’s incompetence. It seems to me that whatever competence or incompetence Nagle revealed by his actions or inactions was subsumed by the fact of the overwhelming nature of the catastrophe. It also seems to presume that the mayor of N’awlins has dictatorial powers.
Though you have correctly, IMHO, moved away from the idiocy of Libertarian ideology, it appears you may have yet been less than successful in weaning yourself from some of the underlying premises.
Back to the issue at hand. One cannot dismiss the problems of class and race with hand-waving and straw-men. OJ & MJ are hardly object studies of Black experience in America. A fussy dissentiment of some vaguely defined sense of entitlement is not worth much in the effort to bring to those who have been historically oppressed a genuine sense of empowerment. The rationalization that mistreatment is excusable by the fact of some help given is equivalent to saying the victim of child abuse should be happy he was given a piece of candy.
Posted by luminous beauty on Dec 15, 2005 at 11:49 AM Pasted below--partially-- is GW Bush’s warped view of our Constitution. It was online at “Capitol Hill Blue” on 12/9/05.
Is it any wonder that the boy wonder condones torture?Greg Bacon
Ava, MOFrom Capitol Hill Blue
The Rant
Bush on the Constitution: ‘It’s just a goddamned piece of paper’By DOUG THOMPSON
Dec 9, 2005, 07:53Last month, Republican Congressional leaders filed into the Oval Office to meet with President George W. Bush and talk about renewing the controversial USA Patriot Act.
Several provisions of the act, passed in the shell shocked period immediately following the 9/11 terrorist attacks, caused enough anger that liberal groups like the American Civil Liberties Union had joined forces with prominent conservatives like Phyllis Schlafly and Bob Barr to oppose renewal.
GOP leaders told Bush that his hardcore push to renew the more onerous provisions of the act could further alienate conservatives still mad at the President from his botched attempt to nominate White House Counsel Harriet Miers to the Supreme Court.
“I don’t give a goddamn,” Bush retorted. “I’m the President and the Commander-in-Chief. Do it my way.”
“Mr. President,” one aide in the meeting said. “There is a valid case that the provisions in this law undermine the Constitution.”
“Stop throwing the Constitution in my face,” Bush screamed back. “It’s just a goddamned piece of paper!”
I’ve talked to three people present for the meeting that day and they all confirm that the President of the United States called the Constitution “a goddamned piece of paper.”
And, to the Bush Administration, the Constitution of the United States is little more than toilet paper stained from all the shit that this group of power-mad despots have dumped on the freedoms that “goddamned piece of paper” used to guarantee.
Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, while still White House counsel, wrote that the “Constitution is an outdated document.”
Put aside, for a moment, political affiliation or personal beliefs. It doesn’t matter if you are a Democrat, Republican or Independent. It doesn’t matter if you support the invasion or Iraq or not. Despite our differences, the Constitution has stood for two centuries as the defining document of our government, the final source to determine – in the end – if something is legal or right.
Posted by Greg Bacon on Dec 15, 2005 at 11:53 AM Wolf---so we agree on quite a bit. It’s almost un-Ummericun not to feel entitled. I too am prone to pragmatism, and think that extreme approaches tend to cause more stress than they’re worth. For me pragmatism includes fixing things before they breakdown.
I don’t generally have feelings of entitlement like many Ummericuns I know, though I feel we owe ourselves the benefit of the taxes we pay, and are wiser to invest it in ourselves, our infrastructure, health, and education than to let plutocrats use and ‘misplace’ and ‘lose’ trillions on interest and weapons development.
The government is not supposed to be a parenting institution that we OWE. The government feels a bit too “entitled”, if ya ask me. Feeling entitled to safe harbor after the hurricane hits, and the levee breaks, and the Mississipi washes over your city (which happens to be the fifth largest port in the world) is not as outrageous and abrasive as feeling entitled to bomb cities in the name of ideals.
Why should we have to say “pretty please” for rescue? Citizens support the government, and have very little voice in how that government spends that money. If goverment at all levels had listened and had been responsible, Lake Pontchartrain (sp?) would not have flooded New Orleans. The media keeps saying “Katrina, Katrina, Katrina”, as if that were the only problem. Bulls*it.
(I do, however, despise Ayn Rand and will gnaw off a foot before socializing with her self-congratulating sycophants (of a sycophant). The Libertarians and Rand fans that I’ve met in my life have invariably come from well-to-do families.)
Am wondering if you’re considering Rabbit’s posts? It took me thirty years to figure out why I’ve never been racist---my parenting units were. Finally, I realized that I just didn’t trust their judgements about people and decided at an early age to judge by my own experience. And it’s just my nature to enjoy differences.
(I’m not saying you’re racist, o.k.?) I think the “left” (for lack of a better generalization) made a big mistake with shaming in the nineties. People cannot overcome their racism without being able to be open about it and to examine it and question it with a person they trust not to damn them.
Our stupid two-party polarization doesn’t make it any easier to deal with difficult issues.
BTW, have you seen the movie “Crash”? It is the best look at Ummericun racism I’ve ever seen. Incredibly well crafted film too.
.
Posted by wileywitch on Dec 15, 2005 at 12:34 PM luminous beauty - Nagle’s incredible incompetence was in not stocking the superdome and not moving the busses. Furthermore, the crumbling of the city police is also in his bailiwick. If he had done a reasonable job, much suffering could have been averted. Hell, had he done a terrific job, he might have been able to run for governor or more. . . (again, this is not to diminish the truly amazing incompetence of Brown)
The empowerment of any group in this land is best achieved by fostering a desire and respect for education and a work ethic. To the detriment of the black community, almost the opposite has occurred in its youth. I know of too many that think that education is a “white” thing. If it makes a difference, i am also in favor of putting significant more resources into education at all levels.
Posted by wolf on Dec 15, 2005 at 1:40 PM wileywitch - i agree that we should anticipate and fix problems before they arise. In the case of NO, it was a problem waiting to happen for decades at least. It was only a matter of time until something like this happened. And with the Greenhouse effect, you can bet that storms will be more and more intense in the coming century.
Your discussion of the government being entitled is what has led some to try to starve the government of funds. It is clear to me that is what the neocons plan. Cut the taxes of the wealthy and eliminate programs for the lower and middle classes. I am surprised that a candidate championing “economic justice” has not emerged. One no brainer could be to index minimum wage to inflation (ala Social Security) or even to congressional pay increases. It is clear to me that a robust platform supporting economic justice could be constructed, but i see no real efforts being made. If i were cynical i would think it is due to the fact that congressmen are wealthy and simply do not understand the issues confronting middle class Ummerica. They mostly care about getting re-elected, which can often mean pandering to their constituencies (on both sides of the political spectrum).
I also enjoyed Crash. It brought out the subject of prejudice in a interesting manner.
Last note. I never respond to personal attacks on forums. Whether i am called racist, stupid or whatever, there is just no defense. So i let those who read my posts decide what they think of me, and let it go at that. I also never attack back (David in Canada tells me to turn the other cheek, and i believe he is right). Although i irritate some, that is not my desire. Rather i wish to learn, and find the give and take of civil conversation to be the best way.
Posted by wolf on Dec 15, 2005 at 2:08 PM Wolf, if the government that is currently dripping with oil money had fixed the levee like the engineers who lobbied for the job to be done in the name of safety and sanity, then New Orleans would not be much worse off than the rest of the southern coastal cities that got hit by Katrina.
The federal government thought our tax money would be better spent on murdering Iraqis and 77 new weapons development programs.
If you’re going to criticise Nagin more than Micheal Brown---the head of FEMA, then I have to wonder what you’re thinking. I’m disappointed in Nagin in some ways, but I don’t think it’s fair to ask people to be heroic. Rescuing people from disaster is what FEMA is supposed to do, and in most human societies in history that worthless piece of well-dressed floss would have been taken out and summarily shot for having taken the job in the first place. No principled person would take a job they were wholly unqualifiede for when that job involved responsibilty for life and limb. And the rat bastard is still getting paid and will probably be getting an extra break on his tax returns this year.
The only people who are going to benefit from the destruction of New Orleans (caused by ignoring the laws of physics and neglecting critical infrastructure that serves the entire nation) and the martially enforced diaspora that folllowed, is the government figures dripping with oil money and their donors.
Posted by wileywitch on Dec 15, 2005 at 2:13 PM We’re on at the same time here. It seems like your replies are coming up quicker than my posts.
I am surprised that a candidate championing “economic justice” has not emerged. One no brainer could be to index minimum wage to inflation (ala Social Security) or even to congressional pay increases. It is clear to me that a robust platform supporting economic justice could be constructed, but i see no real efforts being made.
Well, it would be treated by the press as being classist. I guess there isn’t enough irony or convolution in the world.
I’m not sure the wage thing is such a no-brainer---for most working people their rent would go up to siphon off the increase.
If i were cynical i would think it is due to the fact that congressmen are wealthy and simply do not understand the issues confronting middle class Ummerica. They mostly care about getting re-elected, which can often mean pandering to their constituencies (on both sides of the political spectrum).
Are you joking, Wolf? I suspect you’re being tongue in cheek? Yes? No? Realism isn’t cynicism. Cynicism is knowing the price of everything and the value of nothing---like scrapping the Hubble to build a colony on the moon because that would remind people of Kennedy and make the president look ‘presidential’.
You treat flames however you like (of course), I personally feel a certain amount of responsibility as a woman and a social animal to cut back when someone launches a full scaled attack out of the blue. Sure we all have (two) cheeks, but silence can be complicity as well. Anyone who fires up should be a sport and accept being fired upon in return.
I’m going to repeat something I’ve posted elsewhere about how one of the great wonders to me about the “left” and the internet is how so many people think that freedom of speech means eating insults and sh*tting daisies. It’s made the Democratic party completely useless.
It’s almost always the person who fires back who catches the collective ire. Why is that? I’d really like to crack that nut, because then I could understand why so many Ummericuns despise the Iraqis who are fighting back. If we bomb a nation to smithereens they’re supposed to turn the other cheek? Right?
Posted by wileywitch on Dec 15, 2005 at 2:33 PM Right On Wileywitch - you hit several nails right on the head.
Obviously Wolf is a Repugnican in the process of being enlightened by the abject failure of ideals he once fervently believed in. Unfortunately he still relies on the right-wing media for information, and probably still believes the media has a liberal bias, and auto-corrects accordingly. LOL
needs to stray from those sources and investigate other sources not beholden to the Delay’s of the world.
If he did, he’d realize that potential champions for economic justice do try to rise up, but have been mercilessly attacked the moment they reach the threshold of visibility of the public eye in our media.
Posted by johnnyincentx on Dec 15, 2005 at 2:43 PM Well, I’m here to tell you that torture, like terrorism, is as American as apple pie.
Well, it is good to see Salim is true to form. Taking select incidents out of the context of American society at large and extrapolating it into a theme he has pounded before, goes far beyond any “Club of Rome” comparisons.
I believe most dictionaries would define this kind of stereotyping of the whole on the actions of a few as, dare I say it, racist?
Posted by Jay Cline on Dec 15, 2005 at 3:22 PM Wait a minute---I was working on a post about racism, and then I re-read your post Jay--- America is not a race. Call it “racist” if ye dast, but it doesn’t make any sense.
“Reductionist” might be a fair word, but relating U.S. government sponsored torturing of Iraqis to U.S. government torture of U.S. citizens is not stereotyping when what is being described is actually happening on a wide scale.
Do you think it should all be racked up to coincidence?
Posted by wileywitch on Dec 15, 2005 at 4:09 PM Wolf,
I think Nagle’s bad guesses in regards to the Superdome and Convention Center debacles had more to do with his believing press reports of gang-banging, rape, murder, looting, etc. than with his lack of management skills. It takes considerable imaginative talent for a white person to understand the overwhelming pressure felt by any black public official to accede to white perceptual bias. The bitter irony here is that after the press had tied Nagle up with their disinfo they turned on him as being incompetent for acting or failing to act on the basis of their own errors.
One has to wonder at the naivete of one who thinks that a Black mayor has any command whatsoever over one of the most blatantly racist police departments in the country.
This ties into your attack on blacks who criticize the educational system as being a ‘white thing’. What is of interest about your statement is that it refers to black youth that you know of rather than know. You are being misleading and simplistic with a decidedly second hand reading of the issue. Hip-Hoppers are not being anti-education per se by saying ‘education is a white thing’. they are commenting on the poor quality of the education that is received and the fact that educators are insensitive to the natural pride that working class black folks have for their own culture (which is what Hip-Hop is all about). The unvarnished sentiment, to which I’m guessing that you would agree, that in order to be successful in the greater society they must learn to dress and speak and act like white people. Whether that is objectively true or not is a side issue. It is about the psychological consequence of being told the way you dress and speak and act is inferior. This might be a clue to what is meant by ‘institutional racism’. What they are doing is an auto-poetic act of reclaiming their dignity and sense of self worth. Possessions which, if you should ever lose, you will discover are more valuable than all the material success you could ever imagine.
Posted by luminous beauty on Dec 15, 2005 at 4:18 PM wileywitch - why do you think i criticized Nagle more than Brown? I would say i criticized them both. In my view, Nagle was responsible for the first few days after the storm and the feds for the rescue after that, once they had time to mobilize.
Again, this was a disaster that was waiting to happen for decades. So as to the levies, one can blame Carter, Reagan, etc as well as Bush (but clearly Bush gets the nod for appointing a complete incompetent to head FEMA).
While i enjoy discussion, i find that people who tend to flame are not open to rational discussion, hence i tend to ignore them. It always fascinates me to see people describe me, with so little knowledge. I suppose it gives them comfort in some fashion, but the results are humourous to me.
Here is a question i ask from time to time (although the details vary): can a person be in favor of the Iraq war and still be intelligent and honorable? Just to be up front i believe the answer is yes, and remains yes if they are opposed. What i find interesting is why they hold the opinions they hold. (Substitute abortion or death penalty, etc and the question still interests me.)
luminous beauty - while the powers of a (black?) mayor are limited, surely he could have stocked the superdome with food/water and provided security before the storm hit. Not after the storm, but the days before. The busses should have been moved and used for more evacuations. Do you think this is an unreasonable thing to have expected from the mayor of NO? To me it is more like the minimum i would have expected. . . (perhaps my standards are too high?)
Posted by wolf on Dec 15, 2005 at 5:02 PM Wiley,
Meet Jay Cline. Resident troll, extraordinaire. Look closely at his post and you’ll see that isn’t the only bit of twisted logic he has embedded in that little screed.
Hi, Jay-Jay. Glad to see you back from your brief sabbatical. Up to the same old tricks, I see.
Posted by luminous beauty on Dec 15, 2005 at 5:05 PM Wolf,
The levees didn’t break until after the storm. The use of the stadium and center were ad hoc improvisations. What pre-planning was in place was made moot by the Feds stalling to provide resources and man-power until days after the levees broke. You can’t fault the man for failing to provide resources it was not in his authority to command nor his ability to provide. I think the problems on the ground were greatly magnified by the lack of coordination from the top which led to overwhelmingly poor communication and conflicting information in its absence. This confusion seems from what I can understand about the busses to be particularly relevant. Though Nagle bears institutional responsibility and undoubtedly is suffering politically because of the mere fact that he is the mayor, I believe he was dealt a crappy hand and they were all cards dealt from the bottom. It would have taken a person of heroic proportions to overcome such institutional handicaps. So, yes I think your standards might be a little too high, as well as suffering from something less than 20/20 hindsight. I would think someone who professes to be a physicist would look at the matter in the light of objective causality, rather than as an exercise in shifting political blame.
Posted by luminous beauty on Dec 15, 2005 at 5:53 PM WOLF....................
and WILEY (I’d like your opinion)
So you think Nagle was initially negligent? You say he didn’t do his job. Just a little thinking would have averted the mess in large part.
This nation has had many hurricanes. I canNOT recall a previous major hurricane related disaster where a the mayor’s role was portrayed as so pivotal.
Does anyone recall Mayors of other cities like Miami or Ft. Lauderdale or any major city in the path of a big storm ever rating a mention in the major press?
They do NOT get a mention, because mayors do NOT play a major role in disaster preparation.
Your focus on N.O. shows only a superficial awareness of the scope of the disaster.
The Gulf Coast from Orange, TX to the Western border of Florida was almost totally destroyed Katrina and Rita dealt a rare 1,2 punch.
THE STORIES ARE THE SAME from every location in that region. City after City, town after town in Louisiana have been destroyed and nothing left but foundations and mountains of debre, the story is even worse in Miss. (Biloxi, Gulf Shores Etc.)
No one is blaming the mayors of those cities for what happened there why is that?
Because Hurricanes are NEVER LOCAL, and ALWAYS REGIONAL primary responsibility is first confronted at a higher level of government.
BECAUSE HURRICANES OFTEN AFFECT SEVERAL STATES - The Federal Gov’t. has been made the PRIMARY and INITIAL RESPONDER to them.
The State’s role is usually limited to declaring disaster areas and sending it’s state’s National Guard in to keep order.
However In Louisiana, Governor Blanco could not. Her national Guard is/was in Iraq. As a result all she could do was stall until the Federal Government avail. Nat’l. Guard units in other states and bring them to LA. Some say should have made people evacuate. Well again that requires Nat’l Guard troops going door to door. No can do, when those troops are in Iraq going door to door looking for rebels.
In such a multi-state disaster, a Mayor’s role is virtually nil in such situations. Mayors do NOT have access to resources nor control of the various levels of government to confront such a disaster.
Nagle STEPPED IN and STEPPED UP THE HEAT, BECAUSE the higher ups were NOT FULFILLING their role.
For speaking up and directing Attn. to the foulups and incompetence those that are really to blame tried to focus the lights on him as if he was responsible.
He DID DIRECT the city Depts. to try to do what they could, but GUESS WHAT. The city had been mostly evacuated, and that included City employees. Cops were gone, as was the FD. So exactly who was going to stock the Super Dome with water as you so glibly state should have been done? Who was going to police it?
PEOPLE WERE NOT SUPPPOSED TO HAVE REMAINED, and in large part everyone left according to the warnings they received from all levels of Gov’t.
The root of the problem was FEMA planned as if everyone had the means to leave easily as well as had cash to tide them over afterwards.
You really need to stop being so gullable, and think.
If you are a physicist, you are a classic example of the biggest failing in of the scientific mind. The gift of great intelligence is rarely matched up with an equvilent measure of creativity and compassion. As a result all your intelligence goes towards rationalizing and justifying things people of supposedly much less intelligence quickly correctly determine as false.
Posted by johnnyincentx on Dec 15, 2005 at 6:12 PM Well Wolf, what johhnyincentx and Lumens said.
I am not impugning your intelligence---everybody is stupid sometimes in some ways and smart at other times and in other ways. I do, however consider the question of whether a person can be in favor of the Iraq war and still be “intelligent” to be a totally useless inquiry---too callous and conceited to entertain, unless you are going to poll Iraqis about this too, and then judge their “intelligence”, but noooooooooooo, that doesn’t really work either does it?
Posted by wileywitch on Dec 15, 2005 at 9:11 PM Lumens and johnnincentx. You guys prang it out. Wow. I was so relieved and energized to see your responses.
Now I want to mention a specific example of why I am glad that I started reading alternative news sources when I was 18. Over and over and over again I would see a story in an alternate publication hit the mainstream years later---perhaps, when the statute of limitations ran out? And so often I’d find stories that the MSM ignored completely. So I just check out MSM to see how the propoganda and sales are doing.
Don’t remember what the name of the storm was, but I was living in Austin at the time and the newscasters were going on and on and on about the possibility that this hurricane would hit Brownsville, Texas. Suddenly Brownsville, Texas was the center of the universe. It might not have been mentioned since then, and that was in the eighties.
ANYWAY, the storm petered out and all was supposed to be dandy. I found other publications that reported entire islands having been wiped out with all their inhabitants. I think that’s some cold-blooded pathological chit to ignore the rest of the world that way.
Posted by wileywitch on Dec 15, 2005 at 9:24 PM wiley,
It is a pity you have not provided your discourse on race; I would have liked to reviewed that before I responded.
As you must know, “race”, by its very nature, does not have a very precise definition. Certainly, taxonomically speaking, race really has no place. At best, it could be described as a relatively homogenous and stable population, with distinct characteristics. Arguably, an “american” race does not by definition exist, yet. Yet race is not immutable. Consider the Hispanic race. By the strictest of definitions, it too arguably does not exist. It is a mixed race of Spanish, Portuguese, and Native South American genetics. Yet, I challenge you to call any Hispanic a spick.
But, let me clarify my statement by exclaiming that Salim is certainly no more and no less a racist than one who would use such slurs as kite, dago, kraut, nip, chink, mick, goon or wetback; judging the population on anecdotal incidents.
If you have any objections to my critique of Salim’s liberal use of rhetoric, short of hare splitting, I would be encouraged to reflect upon them.
Posted by Jay Cline on Dec 16, 2005 at 8:48 AM interesting.
ITT appears to have automatic censoring. The #### would be the derogatory slur for Chinese.
Wonder why the other ones weren’t?
Posted by Jay Cline on Dec 16, 2005 at 8:54 AM Jay-Jay;
You slay me! Why do you hate apple pie?
Posted by luminous beauty on Dec 16, 2005 at 9:46 AM First time I bother to read this site in a couple of weeks and what do I get? “
From Capitol Hill Blue
The Rant
Bush on the Constitution: ‘It’s just a goddamned piece of paper’
By DOUG THOMPSON
Dec 9, 2005, 07:53You people will believe anything if it fits your biases.
Go to Google, put in: capital hill blue thompson
You will get his 12-9 comments (many times repeated at other sites which, of course amkes it more believeable —right?), but you will also get a claim of his retraction.
This way everyone can BELIEVE whatever suits his/her fancy. Ah, the wonders of the Information Highway.
Thanks Al
Posted by whattheheck on Dec 16, 2005 at 11:02 AM Let me understand this WTH;
Thompson writes a retraction of a story he posted on 6/8/03 the very next day on the basis that he was misled in his faith of his single source. So that means Thompson is totally unbelievable for a story that he wrote on 12/9/05 for which he claims three independent sources. You really gotta help me with the reasoning here, WTH. I’m floundering.
There is some slight irony in the fact the 6/8/03 article was headlined “White House admits Bush wrong about Iraqi nukes.” Wasn’t it just the other day that Bush finally accepted responsibility for ‘intelligence failures’?
Posted by luminous beauty on Dec 16, 2005 at 12:53 PM good comeback LUMINOUS.
hahaha it’s always nice to see a leftie hit back 2x as hard instead of trying to reason with a FRight wing moron.
Posted by johnnyincentx on Dec 16, 2005 at 2:49 PM If you keep the light on, the cockroaches will skitter away.
Thanks for the perspective piece.
Posted by minerva on Dec 16, 2005 at 7:27 PM If you have any objections to my critique of Salim’s liberal use of rhetoric, short of hare splitting, I would be encouraged to reflect upon them.
You made the claim, Jay. If you want to make a federal case of it then the burden of making a case is yours.
You’ll have to look elsewhere for assistance slandering Salim Muwakkil. If there is racism in his article, I don’t see it, nor do I feel inclined to split hares looking for it.
Surely you meant h-a-i-r, though it’s an amusing spelling error that brightened up your post a bit.
Posted by wileywitch on Dec 16, 2005 at 8:54 PM Hee hee, Jay is back. Hooray for Lume, your Troll is back. Oh Happy day Lume. Rabbit has been so sad, thinking he maybe had a hand in scaring the fearless, and peerless, Jay Bird away.
Wiley............. see Jay, and what a wonderful fellow he is. Has the rabbit not told you of such wonders? Here before your very eyes is the one and only Jay. Returned, from some well earned R & R. Ready to pit his wits against the fools and dunces, the stupid doubters of simple truths, which Jay does defend. Don’t even try and get Jay to say Bush lied about anything, ever, for he knows it is not so.
In fact Jay knows everything, and soon..................... you will have heard everything.
Hi Jay...................^^....................
Posted by GhostRabbit on Dec 19, 2005 at 9:15 AM Hast thou stumbled upon the naughty word filters at last Jay Bird?
As it happens the filters are quite selective, They have a penchant for the oddest words.
A couple of times Rabbit has had to think long and hard about why a particular word becomes ####.
The important words, which are often necessary to discuss the sort of things which you say, like bullshit, arsewipe and piss, are all allowed. As are useful terms like wanker, dickhead and fuck off.
Not that Rabbit means for you to Fuck off, Jay bird, rather stay, make yourself comfortable. We have all missed you, in our own ways, and although we have recieved occasioanl updates, and were glad to know you were well and thriving, it is so much better to have you in the “flesh” so to speak.
Rabbit will be trying his best to be politer to Jay, he has promised Dave to try and be nicer to trolls. Since Jay Bird always ignores the Rabbit, it seems to this hopper as if it makes little difference anyway what the rabbit says to Jay Bird.
Henceforth think of the Rabbit holding not a nasty wacking stick, but more of a Rubber Truncheon.
In the spirit of new understanding Rabbit hopes to engender with this gentler approach, he offers the following as a gesture of faith and goodwill.
The Rabbit, has previously referred to Jay Cline, as a Troll. In fact Rabbit has described him as a Troll on numerous occassions. This has never before been qualified by Rabbit, but he is hereby retracting the dreadful, the heinous accusation. Rabbit states, unequivocably, that he is aware that Jay is not a Troll. By the actual “generally accepted” definition of Trolls this is so. Jay is not a Troll. Rabbit has really always been aware of this, but didn’t feel, since Jay was being such a boastful ape, that he owed it to him to clarify the point. Now the rabbit does so.
Jay is not a Troll, he is and always has been just a moron, a special sort of Moron, certainly and no less a wonderful pet dear Lumens. Technically speaking Poppinjay, is a Very special moron. But not any sort of Troll.
Unless one uses a certain definition, which is not offiical and shall not be employed, unless at least three people agree to.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Dec 19, 2005 at 9:36 AM WTH is back too. Oh happy, happy days. Have you two been holidaying together, or is it just that you are both on similar frequencies. Great minds think alike and ....um you know what Rabbit means?
Our cup runneth over. Verily our cup runneth over and we are dancing babes we are dancing under the moon, and we are doing it to the tune, of Torture in the USA.
Pass the apple pie mom.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Dec 19, 2005 at 9:41 AM Wiley dear, Jay jay never makes spelling errors.......he was possibly being witty and a bit brave. Not brave enough to call anyones attention to it, but he was feeling good about slipping that little tidbit into the line, he saw the rabbit in the grass, though he said nothing to it.
He would like to split a hare, if he would but dare.
Else it would be something subconscious, some inner demon whispering between the lines.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Dec 19, 2005 at 9:45 AM The important words, which are often necessary to discuss the sort of things which you say, like bullshit, arsewipe and piss, are all allowed. As are useful terms like wanker, dickhead and fuck off.
This is shocking to me Rabbit! Af far as torture goes I guess I would have to say that it’s really fucked up--- only a psycho wanker dickhead arsewipe piss-ant would defend this bullshit.
Posted by wileywitch on Dec 19, 2005 at 1:31 PM .........................................^^.................................. ...............
Oh oh. Now you’ve done it, Stellar Jay, won’t talk to the Witch either. His sensibilities will now be sorely offended, he expects no better from a foul and vicous, loathsome rodent like the mean and nasty Rabbit.
Such words as these from the tips of the fingers of a wiley lady, may shock him into ignoring you too. It remains to be seen, but this would be Rabbit’s guess.
When first the Jay bird and Rabbit met, within about three posts or less Rabbit and he were not friends which led to him calling Rabbit....... Bunny Face, in the most abusive version of Jay yet seen. He has been more polite since then.
Rabbit has not been. Jay has ignored Rabbit ever since. Rabbit asks him things and he says nothing. Others must ask him things for him to acknowledge the post, not that he actually answers anything for them either.
If he talks to Wiley she might be able to pass on Rabbit’s messages to the Jay Bird, sometimes.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Dec 20, 2005 at 7:10 AM Jay,
The slur for Chinese gets cut, but kike, mick, dago, etc. do not. Could it be simply that Microsoft and AOL do not have any reason to suck up to the others as they are doing to the Chinks?
In order to get into the huge China market they have agreed to alter their internet access in compliance with Big Daddy’s wishes. I’m sure they don’t want to take a chance on non-PC names.
Posted by whattheheck on Dec 20, 2005 at 10:13 AM I see a chink in this argument. What was your first slur in the post above? It seems to be a moving target what racist slur is going to be cut. Censorship roulette, eh?
Posted by luminous beauty on Dec 20, 2005 at 10:23 AM Yup, they care more about Yuan more than Juan. Why am I not surprised.
Posted by whattheheck on Dec 20, 2005 at 11:01 AM I slipped on the post you asked about and included singular of Chinks. I think I may have copied and pasted from Jay’s original list. We live in a strange world.
Posted by whattheheck on Dec 20, 2005 at 11:07 AM He called you Bunny Face? We’ll meet on a field of onions!
Posted by wileywitch on Dec 20, 2005 at 12:13 PM I liked it when AnarchoSozi called Rabbit Kaninchen . (German for Rabbit.)
Posted by David in Canada on Dec 20, 2005 at 12:50 PM Rabbit never heard the Vacuous Rodentia? maybe it was missed among all Jay’s other Vacious words.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Dec 20, 2005 at 1:24 PM Oh Damn.
Maybe it was missed among all Jay’s other Vacuous words.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Dec 20, 2005 at 1:25 PM I may be misquoting myself; it was some time ago.
I think it was actually Vacuous Bunny.
Though, I don’t remember Bunny Face, as good as that is…
Posted by Jay Cline on Dec 20, 2005 at 1:28 PM ljwhit used the A-bomb reference to argue against the morality of American actions in the Middle East after 9/11 and bunny face has argued that America has no legitimate reason for accusing Middle East terrorists for 9/11 or for attacking Iraq. Bunny face has explicitly argued that Middle East hatred legitimatizes the act.
Posted by Jay Cline on Sep 29, 2005 at 10:50 PM
Then came the following, he must have shocked himself with these harsh words:
I apologize for my crude remarks to the Rabbit. But as Bill Moyers has said here,
bullies cannot be appeased. they must be confronted
Posted by Jay Cline on Sep 29, 2005 at 10:51 PM
And you still like it don’t you little birdy, impressed with yourself as usual, pompous ninny.
This is how you were answered. Stellar Jay
.WHAT?
-----"and bunny face has argued that America has no legitimate reason for accusing Middle East terrorists for 9/11 or for attacking Iraq.
.
Bunny FAce?....Jay is a poobum!---"Bunny face has explicitly argued that Middle East hatred legitimatizes the act.”
..
You bloody lunatic...........Bunny Face has not explicitly argued any such thing, you...you...nincompoop!----"It doesn’t take careful reading. Just a basic ability to read English.”
..
Well AMEN to that brothers!------"Legitimacy is at the core of the argument and has been invoked on both sides of the argument here.”
......If has been “invoked” (Rise oh Spirit of Legitimacy, rise up), but has only materialised on this side of the fence so far. Your spells have not created anything, not even a wisp of substance.
...........You could try using Facts backed up by sources which supported your Opinions which should be expressed as such and then you might be able to produce at least a Rabbit out of your Hat. Instead of just CRAP out of your Mouth.----"And I do not hear the whisper. Your argument implies that if it is ok for cops to carry guns, then”
...
?????
................^^.......................................... ...........??
.. No......... Rabbit hears no whisperingWHAT?
-----"and bunny face has argued that America has no legitimate reason for accusing Middle East terrorists for 9/11 or for attacking Iraq.
.
Bunny FAce?....Jay is a poobum!---"Bunny face has explicitly argued that Middle East hatred legitimatizes the act.”
..
You bloody lunatic...........Bunny Face has not explicitly argued any such thing, you...you...nincompoop!----"It doesn’t take careful reading. Just a basic ability to read English.”
..
Well AMEN to that brothers!------"Legitimacy is at the core of the argument and has been invoked on both sides of the argument here.”
......If has been “invoked” (Rise oh Spirit of Legitimacy, rise up), but has only materialised on this side of the fence so far. Your spells have not created anything, not even a wisp of substance.
...........You could try using Facts backed up by sources which supported your Opinions which should be expressed as such and then you might be able to produce at least a Rabbit out of your Hat. Instead of just CRAP out of your Mouth.----"And I do not hear the whisper. Your argument implies that if it is ok for cops to carry guns, then”
...
?????
................^^.......................................... ...........??
.. No......... Rabbit hears no whispering
Posted by GhostRabbit on Dec 20, 2005 at 3:09 PM Vorpal Bunny too, and this was shortened to VB. This stands for Victoria Bitter, a popular with some, Oz Beer.
It is not popular with Rabbit.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Dec 20, 2005 at 3:13 PM Ah, yes. So it is.
And yes. Vorpal Bunny I had forgotten, which is unfortunate, for that is very good.
Posted by Jay Cline on Dec 20, 2005 at 4:11 PM I think Vorpal sounds like a groovy term, because it sounds good and would be in good company between vorlage and Voronezh; though Kurt Vonnegut is above it all.
One thing for sure, it’s difficult to stay on the topic of torture. Depressing isn’t it.
Posted by wileywitch on Dec 20, 2005 at 6:48 PM I have called our bunny like friend Ricochet Rabbit . You liked that one didn’t you Rabbit?
Vorpal is cool. Coined by Lewis Carroll to describe a sword.
Wiley, a humorous ( some would say torturous :) interlude is welcome every now and then. It helps everyone to bond a little and maybe see the other as a friend.
Posted by David in Canada on Dec 20, 2005 at 7:00 PM Oh yes Jay everything you do is very good. The standard of your wit has never been in question, we all stand in awe as you know.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Dec 20, 2005 at 7:20 PM Oh yes David, Rabbit and Jay are bonding like a pair of turtle doves.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Dec 20, 2005 at 7:28 PM I, being the queen of England (diabolical laughter) declare this thread to be DEAD, DeAd, dead…
...and you can take your blue suede shoes with you!!!
Posted by wileywitch on Jan 9, 2006 at 10:23 PM Poor Wiley....
thinking that this thread is dead, I mean.
Evidently it is not illegal for members of the American military to smother POW’s in their captivity, contrary to Geneva Convention style legal and idealistic manipulations.
In fact, they can escape any legal consequences whatsoever if their commanding officer is in full support of their actions, even those that lead to the death of an incarcerated enemy combatant.
I refer you to the super subterranean, highly classified story at Yahoo.com.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060124/ap_on_re_us/iraq_suffocation
Don’t let the rest of the world know this is really happening, ok?
I don’t think they could take it.
Posted by minerva on Jan 24, 2006 at 1:04 AM I mean, not to beat a dead horse or whatever…
but the US is violating every value they ever consolidated, and the ideals of their protected and entitled power base, if word of this ongoing illegal incarceration and torture got out!
Imagine the reprecussions!
Americans might start losing faith in, and questioning, their own government......
Posted by minerva on Jan 24, 2006 at 1:18 AM Page 1 of 1 pages -
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