The 9/11 Faith Movement

sCoRPy…..You sound kind of crumpled…dented….like some old Ronny Reagan phonograph…playing that same old tone about the dangers of the communist threat…..
Now you look like a dog…chasing it’s own tail…...

If you what to see an ideologue….look in the mirror….

Posted by Redhorse on Aug 25, 2006 at 10:24 PM

I see there are lots of playmates for the Fruit Bat Nat, and WTH is still treading water, averting his gaze from anything which would force him to rethink.  Scorp still babbling on about a single photo, three whole long posts about it, and trying no doubt to attack the character of one person, as if this is going to make a scrap of difference.

Molten Steel Scorp.  Fall times the speed of gravity Scorpy.

Seeing as how the truth is something which can only grow in influence, and it is, the rabbit keeps being in the position of having new and interesting spokesmen for the truth to introduce the faith brigade to.

Just what Batgirl has been asking for. A Structural Engineer discusses WTC collapse theories!  Ha HA HA! The Bat will be gnashing its nasty fangs at this.

Popular Mechanics in full retreat after sticking their nasty little shill noses out in a feeble attempt to be a flagship for the 9/11 Faith Brigade.  Fools against Scholars.  No wonder they dare not debate. 

New WTC photos highlight bizarre WTC-7 collapse.  Buildings 5 and 6, closer to the twin towers burned throughout but did not collapse.  It is obvious these buildings sustained far greater fire damage.  They don’t even fall down a little bit.

Posted by Rabbit on Aug 25, 2006 at 10:34 PM

Now ScORpy pee-brain you now that depleted uranium is bad for folks…
Damn….. a right-wing neo-con lap dog like yourself should know how to lie better than that….weak…..very weak indeed….......

Have you found a job yet….looking even…...such desperation…....

Posted by Redhorse on Aug 25, 2006 at 10:43 PM

“Just what Batgirl has been asking for. A Structural Engineer discusses WTC collapse theories! Ha HA HA! The Bat will be gnashing its nasty fangs at this.”

B.S.?  Prisonplanet?  Are you kidding me?????  GnashingOL!!!! 
Get an argument.

Posted by Natalie on Aug 25, 2006 at 11:08 PM

Australia doesn’t agree with Depleted Uranium Scorpse, we don’t use it, and just because our scuz PM sucks George Bush’s dick doesn’t mean Australians agree with DU or America in general.

Americans visiting Oz claim to be Canadian, that has long been a fact and now more so.  Israel isn’t very popular either, we’ve had a few dead Israeli’s turn up lately.  Maybe just a co-incidence, but I can assure you one needs to go a long way to find an Australian who supports USA or Israel, and I doubt you’ll find anyone who suppots everything about either that you do.

The only reason we are still in Iraq is because none of our boys are getting killed. They are staying out of nastines and follow our own higher code and internationally accepted rules of engagement.

Posted by Rabbit on Aug 25, 2006 at 11:10 PM

Batgirl

Prison planet is but the window onto the source, they merely list the Structural Engineer’s qualifications.  You have to click a link then listen to an mp3 file. 

Too bad for you Batgirl, the source is not prison planet, the engineer has been interviewed and his details all clear and above board.

Unlike the sort of strawman unourced gobblydegok you rely on for whatever pitiful support your faith based fairy tale can garner.

Since you are such an evil Bat, the rabbit will as usual assume you need the info spelt out, thus assuring your attempts to misrepresent the truth are shown.

This is what the DISHONEST Fruit Bat has tried to fob off with B.S.?  Prisonplanet?  Are you kidding me?????  GnashingOL!!!! 
Get an argument.   She is gnashing her fangs.  Now see what happened, the naughty rabbit has posted the whole thing. aarg aargh, the gurgling and the screeching, the gnashing of fangs, it didn’t go away!

A Structural Engineer, Charles N. Pegelow, was a suprise guest on Jim Fetzer’s radio program today (August 24, 2006).

Listen to the archived program; Jim Fetzer’s “Non-Random Thoughts” - Thursday, August 24, 2006 (Pegelow is in the 2nd hour, David Ray Griffin in the 1st hour.)
http://mp3.rbnlive.com/Fetzer06.html

...and hear the guy speak for himself.

His resume;

Education:
B. S. Civil Engineering 1972, Lamar University
B. S. Mathematics 1972, Beaumont,Texas

Experience:

Present: FULTON CONSTRUCTION COMPANY - private consulting engineer/ contract

1998: Contract Engineering - Paragon Engineering Inc. (Houston, TX)
1) Shell Nigeria onshore gas gathering compressor flow stations and pipeline export station.
2) Mozambique - offshore field development and design for 4 caisson platforms and one central gas export caisson platform.

1997: Contract Engineering - Reading and Bates (Brownsville, TX)
Structural / construction project engineer for the upgrade of Rig 41 for 1000 meters drilling depth. Engineering, construction, scope of work for the support steel for the riser turn-down sheaves, substructure reinforcement, and many miscellaneous structures.

1994-1996: Contract Engineering - Fulton Construction Company (Houston/Livingston)

1994-1995: Hudson - McDermott (Houston)
LNG plant and export terminal for Trinidad. Cost optimization study and conceptual design for jetty and dredging, preparing bid tender documents and design specifications for jetty design / gangway / dredging / bulk steel / nav-aids / and misc. items. Plant foundation and steel design.

1979-1993: Conoco, Inc. (Houston)
Company project structural engineer and design engineer on various projects including drilling and production platforms, gaslift injection platforms, living quarters platforms, and many miscellaneous deck extensions, skids, and access platforms. Duties included feasibility studies, reviewing and writing specifications, design calculations, computer input/output, review/checking structural drawings, scope of work, design premises for outside source work, interfacing with other disciplines, and writing various reports.

1977-1979: Brown and Root, Inc. (Houston)
Structural designer of Gulf of Mexico type platforms. Also mud slide resistant platforms. Deck design, jacket tubular, foundation analysis, flotation and launch analysis, lifting and installation analysis.

1976: King-Wilkinson Ltd. (Scotland, U.K.)
Project management team for the installation of Occidental Petroleum’s Claymore “A” platform. Duties included structural design of pile elevator clamps, pile alignment clamps, miscellaneous installation skids and platforms. Review and recommendation of bids for grouting and pile driving. Also, rigging review, pile driving sequence, and module installation.

1974-1976: Earl and Wright Consulting Engineere, SEDCO (San Francisco)
Structural design of North Sea type platforms, deck modules, large tubular joints, control capsules, deck support trusses, punching shear design, and parameter study for laterally loaded large diameter piles for Arabian Gulf SBM’s, Semi-submersible platforms.

1972-1974: Associated Engineering Consultants (Houston)
Structural design, analysis, drafting and checking of structural drawings for commercial buildings. Steel structures, foundation, post tension concrete structures, tilt-up construction and high rise building structures.

CODES: Use of following national and industry codes: ASIC, API RP 2A, ANSI 58.1 (AISC), UBC, DNV, ASME Div. VIII vessel.

Posted by Rabbit on Aug 25, 2006 at 11:19 PM

Glad to meet ya Redhorse. We can work together.

Posted by wileywitch on Aug 25, 2006 at 11:54 PM

LIke I said, Rabbit.  B.S.

Someone with a mere BS in engineering (note that it doesn’t even specify structural engineering) is simply wet behind the ears.

He might have lots of years working on the “oil rigs”, and may have great knowledge for what needs to be done to fix a broken flange or something, but as far as high rise structural knowledge, he is a virtual child.

Remember when Jones was all the rage?  Now even his fellow “scholars” are throwing him to the wolves.  Not to mention that his colleagues at the BYU schools of civil and structural engineering shunned him like the plague.

Posted by Natalie on Aug 26, 2006 at 12:07 AM

Redhorse, I did overreact a bit. Sorry to be strident and unfair to you.

I think it would be wise, though,  if “we” worked a little more at being a little more careful with the uses of “we” and “you”.

It’s bad enough dealing with neocons without having to be blamed for the damned things.

No Scorpy, I didn’t “sleep” through the eighties.  I suppose “sleeping” in your parlance means doing whatever you did.  I was busy with college, and I wasn’t majoring in poli-sci. I guess that makes all my political opinions irrelevant, huh? I studied enough to see how people construct and carry out their bullshit theories and apply them to the world. The world not conforming to the reigning theory or school or political party is wrong, no matter how stupid and unrealistic the reigning theory, school, or political party may be.

I’ve seen that little solipsistic world on the left and the right, and they both, quite frankly, bore me, and appear to be incapable of doing much more than talking about “the solution” (that will never happen, because they never talk about anything else or take the ACTUAL world into account), or raise money for middle or upper class white men to tell all their faithful what to think, what to say, and what to do.

I know a waste of time when I see one. Anyone who can’t speak without “debating”, has, IMO, never left high school, no matter how many years they spent in college or how long they have dedicated themselves to keeping up with the mainstream news.

Posted by wileywitch on Aug 26, 2006 at 12:09 AM

The Scorpse does not deserve a response to his huffing and his puffing, and if the rabbit fails to address any point the Scorpse may have made, it is due only to the fact I didn’t read it.  I can’t waste time reading a bunch of his posts that begin once again with an attempt to make something out of that same long since irrelevant PHOTO.  I trust anyone who does notice something of his the rabbit should have answered, that they will let the bunny know so he can hop to it.

I do scan the odd paragraph or two, and note the Scorpse after more than a couple of years now of knowing the rabbit, even now has not figured out why the rabbit is a rabbit.

Don’t you really know why Rabbit is a rabbit?  Would it help the Scorp with a Chinese wife to know I is a water rabbit? 

Beyond that, unless you have ever been attacked by an angry rabbit, it might not make much sense.  All is not as it seems, Scorp.  Besides which trolls and morons hate being wacked by a rabbit more than by a dragon.  Many fine examples of Lagomorphs have gone before.  Lewis Carrol’s rabbit.  Christopher Robin’s rabbit. Oolong the rabbit. The rabbit who tried to assassinate Jimmy Carter on the lake.  Vernor Vinge’s rabbit.  We are everywhere you poor little Scorp.

Nat I guess you’ll have to try again with your own BS.  The resume above doesn’t seem wet behind the ears to me. Such criticism coming from someone who doesn’t understand basic chemistry, who finds laws like gravity to be incomprehensible science, a Fruit Bat who believes DDT is good stuff because it kills bugs, a Fruit Bat who believes in the biblical creation story I suspect, in short a FRUIT BAT….............is a bit of a long shot.

Posted by Rabbit on Aug 26, 2006 at 12:14 AM

Before mentioning the following Rabbit needs to clarify something.

For a long time I have been convinced that Osama Bin Laden didn’t have anything to do with 9/11, and now I am at least ready to accept that he did know about it, and had a hand in it.  This has never been a main point of contention for the mainstream of the truth movement many of whom all along have pointed out that OBL was CIA asset from way back, and that al-Qaeda is infiltrated and manipulated by CIA / MOSSAD. This isn’t in question but is common knowledge.  I based this upon false videos, but have since had some correspondence with someone who recently analysed the original tapes which were supposedly found in a house.  This is from one particular video confession, and doesn’t absolve all the others, some of which Is till think are fake. 

This does not alter anything else at all, OBL still did not get the defense to stand down, didn’t set up the explosive charges and he didn’t fire a missile at the Pentagon, or whatever it was that made that hole. 

With this as background I think the following is of interest.

The main bit starts half way down.

Posted by Rabbit on Aug 26, 2006 at 12:37 AM

He’s not a structural engineer, Rabbit.  He’s an oil rig worker with a white hat who went to four lousy years of college.  He never even thought about designing a quarter mile high building, much less has the knowledge to pass judgement on what brought one down.

You’re gonna have to do better than that.  Way better.

Posted by Natalie on Aug 26, 2006 at 12:38 AM

From Rabbit’s link:

The Final Reckoning: An Analysis of Demographics in Holocaust Literature
By Harold Kreig, Lt.Col, AUS ret.
·      This is the first rational, heavily documented work on the subject of the Holocaust. Colonel Krieg has taken thousands of documents, including the official SS concentration camp records from 1935 through 1945 and official U.S. government postwar analysis of the system and the casualties and causes of death and produced a book that is highly informative and readable.  Heavily footnoted and annotated, ‘The Final Reckoning’ is logical and compelling and is an historical work that should be read through by any student of the period and subject.
·      The Russian army captured the entire file of the SS camp system in 1945, microfilmed it and then, at the urgent request of the Jewish holocaust writers, locked it up in the Central Archives in Moscow.
·      A copy of these microfilms was obtained by German Rudolf, a German researcher and revisionist who was recently arrested by American agents and sent to Germany to be tried for official holocaust denial.
·      Before he was taken away, Rudolf passed these priceless records to others for safekeeping with the intention of returning and publishing them. As it now appears that he will be sentenced to a long term in a German jail, the records are being used as Rudolf has directed.
·      This is a work that stands alone in the revisionist camp because it deals with actual figures from the original German records.  (<u>And we have every reason to believe they’re trustworthy, just ask any Nazi!</u>)  Each entry is heavily footnoted for authenticity.

$5.50 Add to cart???

Posted by Natalie on Aug 26, 2006 at 12:44 AM

As far as the Structural Engineer is concerned, Natalie the great scientist is the best source for such an opinion of course.  Well I’ll just have to defer to your own great store of credibility Batgirl.  If you say the guy is a wombat then the rabbit will take your word for it.  Who wouldn’t?

How exactly does quoting the blurb about a book which was advertised on that site prove anything you foolish bat?  I see you have highlighted a line, or two.  Is that meant to be some sort of insinuation that the site is some sort of anti-semitic or Nazi site is it?  I can’t believe the sort of foulness you engage in, what a gross and immoral human you are Natalie.

The records of the nazis where they shed light on the Nazi Holocaust of Jews are entirely valid for the purposes of historical review, and you don’t even know what those records say, for all you know they may state unequivocably that one million, two million or even more than two million Jews were killed.  Ironically if it does so, then it will constitute the best evidence that millions of Jews were killed, since there exists no other source.  Not forgetting that the Red Cross reports from the entire war as well as thsoe from the cleanup of the camps after the war, all lacked even a single reference to any evidence of a deliberate mass murder of Jews.  I’m sorry that the mere utterance of this truth causes you to gasp in horror, but that just shows your sickness, because speaking the truth is not really meant to be shocking.  You see the name of a German, and furthermore a Holocaust Revisionist, and you see that as some sort of proof of a Nazi conspiracy.!

In the end all of this is beside the point, the site advertises a book, which you have no reason to challenge the veracity off from the mere jacket blurb as you have the chutzpah to attempt.  It has nothing whatsoever to do with the article which it just so happens ends up exonerating Israel, you ignorant lump of Bat Scat!  The best you could have mustered by casting your desperate aspersions and innuendo, was to suggest the site is anti-Israeli.  You may not use the term anti-semite anymore Natalie.  Rabbit and others find that the use of the term by those who are actual, antisemites, like yourself, is becoming very offensive.  Arabs are semites and most israelis are not. That clashes with your jingo and slogans a bit I know, but it is a historical and genealogical fact.  So you are now caste out from that comfortable land from whence the weapon of calling anti-semite was a cure all for your woes.  You are the true anti-semite and I am calling you on it.

Yuk, erk,  look at the anti-semitic Bat!  Horrible immoral and toally untrustworthy, ANTI-SEMITE!  This feels good Nat, I can see why you liked saying it so much.  Now what are you going to do about your anti-semitism, you anti-semite? 

Anyway, the best you can muster is an aspersion that the site is anti-Zionist.  Yet the article makes it clear to the end that Israel is not the main player.  They knew, some of their people were involved, we already KNOW that.  But they did try to warn and did keep their noses clean.  I have been wavering up till now on how much Israel directly acted but this article helps the perspective and much of the details are already known to me and can be checked by anyone in doubt. 

Of course Batgirl’s desperate shilling and cover up of the article are just her knee jerk reaction to anything which might have some of that truth which she so abhors in it.  Personally I only see such an analysis as food for thought, a basis from which to research further.  I don’t accept the conclusions as gospel for they are but opinions.  What a waste for a Bat to just get out it’s bucket of slime and start slinging right off the start mark, wihout even reading a word. 

As always, you find anything at all to distract from the central point when you are capable of recognising it.  When you cannot see the important points you end up making some bland typical prevaricating answer to the central point before realising it was not a minor issue which would wash away with a bit of Bat piss. Then you are left defending an untenable and invariably ludicrous position.

Posted by Rabbit on Aug 26, 2006 at 2:48 AM

California is one signature away from having a bill which guarantees proper testing of Iraq veterans for low level DU exposure.  The type which causes cancers, lung disease, tumours, teratological effects and diabetes among much more.

So all those soldiers will now get tested for DU.  Since you are so much a supporter of Dirty Bombs, of Waste Uranium Weapons, I’m sure it must please you that this testing is to be done.  How much better a support for your case when testing shows the fears of rational people and scientists were unfounded after all.  The testing should make it clear I’d say, don’t you Batgirl?

I can’t believe that we are having to communicate with an anti-semite.  How horrid.

Posted by Rabbit on Aug 26, 2006 at 3:35 AM

It is good that RedHorse and Wiley Witch are at peace.  Both are the rabbit’s friends, both can be feisty too, and I see there has been a small sharing of feisty words times past.

These photos do make the WTC-7 collapse even more incredible, if that is possible.  They as evidence are more important than the speculative spy stuff anyway, which is why a dark and devious soul like our fruit bat would prefer to concentrate on the unknowable. 

Anything Nat ignores while fanging madly away at some other minor matter, must have something going for it, is a good motto.

Posted by Rabbit on Aug 26, 2006 at 3:43 AM

Frog & Wiley,

I

Posted by whattheheck on Aug 26, 2006 at 6:25 AM

If you belive the official lie, then you should belive the NTSB. If you belive the NTSB, then you have a serious problem with the official lie.

The flight data is eithere for the wrong plane or the official lie is just that, A LIE. So far NTSB refuses to comment.

Thought I would give a heads up on just a small bit of research that will soon be exploding into the eyes and ears of the public with information exposing the gov. lie.

Wait tell you see the papers submited by the structual engineers in reguards to the towers.

This info and research is still in its early stages IMO. But I find it very promising. Good or bad I will let you all know

Posted by honestjoe on Aug 26, 2006 at 8:12 AM

honestjoe,

Posted by whattheheck on Aug 26, 2006 at 8:49 AM

whattheheck

I apologise for not being more detailed about my comments. I was posting some research in regards to the pentagon and the NTSB that had been releasd.
Yes there are many opinions posted here and I personaly find them all valueable. Though criticizm can be constructive I think that the insults help no one.
I can imagine the worry you must have had for your son in or near the sears tower and I am sure it will be something you never forget. Helpless is one thing you where feeling for there was nothing you could do at the time to ensure his safety. But you should know that you are doing something now just by trying to understand the why, the cause and effects of what brought all of this. All the emotions the politics the blow back of american policy, If thats the area of your research fine. What matters to me is that you are looking, learning, and trying to understand why and I hope the how of that day. You are trying to save your son wich shows the loveing father you are and by trying to help your son you are helping others. For that I thank you.
In my opinion the worst thing anyone one could do is feel as though it is not worth the time to look and consider all the possibilites of the why and how of 9/11.

Posted by honestjoe on Aug 26, 2006 at 10:00 AM

What the heck, going cold turkey can be unbearable, especially right now. This may not be a good time for a media blackout experiment. There may never again be a good time, come to think of it. But just a pointer—-when quitting something, in order to bypass the part of the brain that doesn’t get the concept of “no”, it’s vital to tell yourself that you’re going to do something else instead. Make a long list.

But, yes the repetition is unbelievable. You might want to make a game when you do watch it of writing down each fact you hear. If you don’t hear a fact within half an hour, turn it off. “I’m Katie Kitty in Manhattan” doesn’t count.

Posted by wileywitch on Aug 26, 2006 at 11:02 AM

Rabbit has provided us all with an invaluable opportunity to assertain the reliability of much of the information we encounter on a thread like this.

Let’s start by looking at the “about us” page at Rabbit’s tbrnews.org.  Obviously, tbr stands for “The Barnes Review.”

Next, let’s find out some interesting information about tbrnews.org, and the guy behind it, Walter Storch.

As it turns out, Walter has lots of aliases, as of course do most reputable journalists.

Finally, to tie it all together, let’s go to a virtual gathering of Storch, and a collection of many of the other flamboyant figures we’ve grown so familiar with during this debate.

We’ve got Walter “fake but accurate” Storch, AKA Gregory Douglas at this fine event.

There’s Chris “I like to make stuff up for fun and profit” Bollyn.

And John Doraime’s friend General Benton “It would have taken two disintegration beams” Partin. 

What a fun party.  I wish I could have been there.  I wish these things didn’t cost so darn much.

One thing I hope is becoming clear here.  A lot of the “information” we’ve been getting about the events of 9/11 has been coming from certified professional historical revisionists, and in the case of “Walter Storch”, shape shifters.

“Oh dear”—Liz

Posted by Natalie on Aug 26, 2006 at 11:47 AM

honestjoe and wileywitch,

I tend to give more credence to print (especially books) by authors whose credentials are checkable than to internet websites and blogs. The internet is too easy to tamper with as are photos these days.

All this discussion about demolition and by whom if so is too remote to interest me. I have looked at some of the photos, but know how they could be faked (I also can do it

Posted by whattheheck on Aug 26, 2006 at 12:16 PM

Natalie -

Lagomorph is backpedaling.  Now he admits, five years after the event, that bin Laden was involved in 09/11, something that was abundantly obvious to the most casual observer before the sun sat on that fateful day.  Despite pretending to be a rabbit, Lagomorph is not too swift.

<blockquote>For a long time I have been convinced that Osama Bin Laden didn

Posted by scorp on Aug 26, 2006 at 12:34 PM

Whatteheck

If you continue in the derection as stated in you last post then you are doing nothing to effect change for the better but to continue to follow and even feed an endless circel of what caused 9/11 to begin with.

In your opinion how do you feel our nations forfathers would have felt about what you said in your last post. Is this how you want your son to go through life with the thought that if the gov. did something moraly wrong or worse comited a crime against its own people that he should just deal with it, ignore it and move on for the people of this country cant, and should never try to bring about justice. So what you are saying is that we are in some kind of dictatership and should not try to fallow the lead of our forfathers and brake the chains that make the comman mans voice worth nothing in this country even though it is his back this country is built upon?

Posted by honestjoe on Aug 26, 2006 at 12:58 PM

Well, WTH, I WAS in that situation in which I had to evaluate whether or not what appeared to be five missiles being launched from two known Soviet Submarine sites——that fit the profile of Soviet Submarine launched ballistic missiles—- were really missiles, during the Iranian Hostage Crisis and the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. (It really hurt to say, “yes”. But it was somebody else’s bad—-someone in NORAD who had slipped a tape into real-time (sound famililiar?)).

I know what it’s like knowing that the men in the silos and submarines are pulling out their manuals and a handgun and getting ready to launch. I know what it’s like to know the SAC bombers are airborne and awaiting further orders. I know what it feels like to be to some degree responsible for defending the Western Hemisphere, and to be somewhat responsible for starting a nuclear war.

I don’t know what it’s like to be responsible for making launch decisions, but I can’t imagine myself being cavalier with that kind of power.  I can’t imagine feeling safe having a president that is cavalier about having that power, and unwilling to even agree to sticking with the ABM treaty.

But I can imagine extinction. That’s a hell of a lot bigger than the president, WTH. Why don’t you give that some thought?

I know what it is like to watch the fate of the earth hanging in front of my eyes like a fly in a spider’s web.

Put the president in perspective.

Posted by wileywitch on Aug 26, 2006 at 6:12 PM

honestjoe,

Posted by whattheheck on Aug 27, 2006 at 6:37 AM

WTH…..Redhorse again….I think the situation for you is that , your life experience is really a block to wrapping your head around what is going on…..
Your point is sound ; in the fact that past presidents have used covert operations with mixed results….and that is the problem…..
The thing with our lastest ” president ” is that he has exasperated the situation beyond any managerial level ; if there is such a think…..
The incomperhensible incompetence matched only by his incivility in dealing with all issues not related to the extremely affluent….
Internationally superstitious ; Bush gets in wrong every time , no matter how much common sense would dictate restraint…..
The solutions for this situation will be difficult ; McCian is not the answer…but I’m sure you like his chances…But as the Redhorse sees things it has to start with a move to the left and a much more progressive distribution of the tax revenue…..
Cleaning up the election mess   and downsizing the enomous over spending by the Gov’t on the military and it’s contractors is the place too start ...at least at the federal level…...
Now WTH….BUSH WAS INVOLVED….let’s not be…with the head in the sand….oil 18 dollars a barrel…now 73 dollars…too much money on the table too many people counting on the Bush regime to get it done….
Just one talking Horse….and a thought….. 

Wileywitch…a shout out…everything is OK…the Horse can be caustic in his responses at times…...

Posted by Redhorse on Aug 27, 2006 at 7:51 AM

WTH -

Early in the Christian Era, schisms developed: Catholics, Orthodox, Gnostics, and many sub-groupings.  Each group looked at pagans as raw material for conversion and salvation.  Each Christian group looked at other Christian groups as mortal enemies to be destroyed, and the wars got very nasty.

This seems to be a universal principle.  The biggest conflicts in the Muslim world have traditionally been between Sunni and Shia.  The slaughters within Islam, largely unnoted and unremarked in the West, have dwarfed the conflicts between Islam and the West.  Even today, the sectarian violence in Iraq and the terrorist events in Pakistan, Lebanon, and the Muslim world have killed far more Shia and Sunni than Westerners. 

Within the ITT world, I am in the happy position of being a pagan to the orthodox leftists, who would like to convert me to their blasphemies or, failing that, the bastards are content to call me names.

Heck, you are in the unenviable position of a rational believer.  Your questions of leftist orthodoxy make you the enemy.  I don’t suppose you are in any real danger over the internet, but your comments are very disturbing to leftists, who are quite disturbed enough without additional provocation. 

Keep up the good work.  One good question is much more valuable than a thousand orthodox talking points, much less orthodox Conspiracy Theory rants.

Posted by scorp on Aug 27, 2006 at 9:44 AM

whattheheck

So I can know the level of gov. propaganda you are influinced by could you please list what you feel is the 5 worst crimes or lies that the gov. has perpitrated on the american people since the 2nd world war. I am just curious if you are aware of the many times the gov. has admitedly killed thousands of there own citizens in gov. run experiments. Not that I think those are the worst crimes.

Posted by honestjoe on Aug 27, 2006 at 10:49 AM

You made some thoughtful points WTH, and I’m not going to address all of them. I disagree on many, and am not informed enough to have an opinion on a few of them.

The president or any governement official should be able to stand up to criticism and questioning, and not try to thwart any scrutiny where his actual job is an issue. We pay him. He is there to serve us.  It’s not just the law, it’s the principle.

Anyone “hurt” by criticism should not be in the limelight. Complaining about it, or acting like it was uncalled for in W’s case is like a woman wearing a short and very tight skirt, a blouse with her boobs falling out, and six inch heels complaining that men are ogling her. 

Have I mentioned that I think W. is just window dressing, and that Cheney and Rumsfeld are in the know about far more than W. is? (I hate Donald Rumsfeld—-he helped me quit smoking.)

I would also like to say that the burden of proof was on W., and he did not order an immediate and thorough forensic investigation (which would mean not tampering with the sites until the investigations were done), or make formal charges with evidence in tow. The administration responding, IMO, by leaping into an agenda much older than 9/11 and using the attack as a pretext for illegal activity on their parts.

I think there is something to your “speed” issue. I think that has a profound affect on stock markets, but I’ve only seen it acknowledged a couple of times.  In democracy, it would help if we had representatives for every sixteen hundred people, and they wouldn’t have to converge on Washington. They could stay at home and stay in touch with their constituency.

aside: Ever wonder why all the sci fi in the sixties and seventies and since, have focused on the video conference, and now that we have that technology we hardly seem to use it?

Posted by wileywitch on Aug 27, 2006 at 12:00 PM

Natalie, how many measly college years of Political Science, or Marketing and Public Relations have you had?  Or measly years of anything?

Posted by wileywitch on Aug 27, 2006 at 12:01 PM

Wiley, the <u>point is not</u> what formal education I’ve had, which I’ve always said has been none past high school.  (Wait, I did go to college for a couple years, but it was just wasted party time—no degree or anything)  However, I can read, and I can reason.

<u>The point is</u> the vast chasm between believers in pancakes and believers in bombs, in terms of the education and experience in the <u>relevant</u> fields of study necessary to make a valid analysis.

We’ve got a theologian (David Griffin), and a history professor, or somethlng (Jim Fetzer) trying to tell us that obviously bombs were necessary to take down those buildings.  They tell us that the hijackers are still alive.  They tell us that flight 77 didn’t hit the Pentagon.

On the other hand, we’ve got virtual unanimity, by people who are qualified to build things like the WTC towers, and people who are qualified to destroy them, in telling us that no, there were no bombs.
We’ve got the FBI, who’s job it is to investigate crimes and determine who’s guilty, who’s dead, and who’s still alive, telling us that indeed all of the men on their final list are the ones who were on those planes, and that all the passengers on flight 77 have been identified strangely enough right there at the Pentagon through DNA or other forensic methodology.

I don’t necessarily think that even highly educated and experienced people always get everything right.  But when it comes to technical matters such as those discussed here, people who have no such education and experience are rarely even close to being right on anything.

Posted by Natalie on Aug 27, 2006 at 1:20 PM

Well, Natalie, people with just four measly years of engineering and/or physics instruction can read and reason too.

Oh, “technical”. That old buzzword. 

Did Edison go to college?

To claim that it’s too “technical” for you to understand, yet that you can tell who is and is not a legitimate analyst is more than just a wee bit odd. Falling back on the plea to the only authorities you will recognize is not the model of sound reasoning.

Posted by wileywitch on Aug 27, 2006 at 1:44 PM

Come on Wiley.

I think you’re smarter than all this.

I do feel personally better though, knowing even Edison didn’t go to college.  However, he didn’t invent things or figure things out from a standpoint of total ignorance of the subject, like for instance Mr. Griffin and Mr. Fetzer, and most all the rest.  He studied and experimented in the sciences in depth, although not from a college classroom.  He had to work doubly hard, no doubt.  He was a pioneer.  All this stuff hadn’t been figured out yet, by anyone.

I’m quite confident that if Edison were alive today, he wouldn’t disagree with the conclusions of every relevant professional in the world on the subjects of builiding failure and DNA analysis.

But then again, don’t misunderestimate the seductive powers of Internet propaganda.

Posted by Natalie on Aug 27, 2006 at 2:36 PM

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/opinion/archive/s_467580.html

Grassy knoll conspiracy theorists at the Livermore Laboratory. What next?

Tell us the story Natalie, about how the DNA of the hijackers was found with their Arab DNA genes intact and how all the samples of DNA that were beyond the shadow of the doubt the DNA of the hijackers was found to compare with the DNA scraped from the rubble, and how that DNA evidence proved that the “Arabs” were hijackers. 

I’m going to skip off to find the article about the Arab gene. I had no idea that the geographical ethnicity gene had been isolated.

But, until they isolate the Radical Muslim Terrorist hijacker gene, I think there’s room for doubt.

Posted by wileywitch on Aug 27, 2006 at 2:49 PM

<i>In a typical scenario there are hundreds of samples taken from remains that must be matched to the pedigrees of the alleged victim

Posted by wileywitch on Aug 27, 2006 at 3:14 PM

To One &All;,

As you must know from our past discussions Bush is NOT my kind of guy.

I would say the level in dealing with threats we are at was elevated mainly by 9/11 and I would agree our response was not in the best interests of the U.S. or Iraq. I see Rumsfeld as the major problem and agree that he and others are the

Posted by whattheheck on Aug 28, 2006 at 8:29 AM

It’s amazing how you can go so far, WTH, and then just clam up. I don’t think Bush “manufactured” it either, btw——the man couldn’t manufacture a taco.

But I don’t think “speed” explains the errors or the incredible preponderence of errors on 9/11. NORAD and air traffic controllers should be quite accustomed to speed. Jets tend not to move slowly.

In the matter of Intelligence, I can see an argument that volume, a.k.a. “too much information” is a problem, but not in air traffic control or NEADS, or NORAD—-organizations that should be quite comfortable with a large volume of traffic.

But the phone tapping, data mining, is a cruel joke in the matter of “too much information”. I can see a terrorist stuff a bomb up Chertoff’s ass as he waddles in reams of files on people who couldn’t put together a souffle, much less a bomb or wmd, and have no criminal intent whatsoever.

Posted by wileywitch on Aug 28, 2006 at 11:39 AM

WTH….Sounds goods…Based on past discussions…I’m not surprized…but WTH ; you say no conspiracy….BUT EVERYTHING YOU TALK ABOUT SCREAMS CONSPIRACY…..Conspiracies are not hard to come by…no big deal….Redhorse is bewildered about why the US population is so stubborn on that point….

Conspiracy….1. The act of conspiring.2. a. A group of conspirators. b.An agreement made by conspirators. 3. Law. An agreement between two or more persons to commit a crime or accomplish a legal purpose through illegal action.

Now WTH…the 3rd definition…you gonna tell us that does not match the current situation…...?

Posted by Redhorse on Aug 28, 2006 at 1:05 PM

Wiley,

The recent revelations about the JFK assassination are an excellent example of superior science winning out over a politicized investigation.  (maybe)  .... they say:

“We don’t know if there were two bullets,” said Randich. “There could have been two bullets, but the lead composition data shows there could be anywhere from one to five bullets.”

So, pretty inconclusive as to actually solving the mystery.  But reasonable people can disagree about JFK.  There is credible evidence from both sides pointing to either a single gunman, or multiple.  There is credible motivation for more than one person wanting to kill JFK, and credible reasons why some people would want to cover up their involvement.  In the case of the WTC towers, and the Pentagon, we have yet to be provided with any credible evidence with which to counter the obvious.  That’s your real problem, not combing history to try to make the claim that just because some previous investigative body might have gotten something wrong, this somehow means that NIST, FEMA, Protec, the FBI and every other relevant professional organization is wrong about 9/11.

As to the DNA, the paper you cite certainly doesn’t specifically raise any doubts as to the reliability of the forensics done for the disaster.  In fact they say:

Whitaker et al. (1995) established the use of short tandem repeat (STR) typing, or microsatellite markers, in mass disaster identification, and Olaisen et al. (1997) applied it to victim identification in the 1996 Spitsbergen aircraft accident, in which it proved to be highly reliable. A thirteen STR loci fingerprint set called the Combined DNA Index System (CODIS) is now in routine usage by the FBI, and has become a major tool in difficult disaster victim identification cases.  (BTW, read the whole paper, and tell me if you’ve ever come across this kind of advanced level of science in anything that’s been presented by the “truth” movement.)

Of course besides DNA, there were countless other examples of victims being identified by dental records, personal effects, and in some cases at Pennsylvania, I would assume recognizable remains.

This makes it a fool’s errand to try to somehow claim that what crashed at New York wasn’t flights 11 & 175, and what crashed at Pennsylvania and the Pentagon wasn’t flights 93 & 77.  (not to mention the dozens of eye-witnesses to an American Airlines jet screaming overhead and into the Pentagon.)

There were remains identified for all or most of the “extra” people at the sites (Penn & Pent) that obviously belonged to the hijackers.  No, it’s not about an Arab DNA molecule, it’s about extra people.  These people’s families weren’t interested in coming forward to provide DNA samples, so what are we to do?  But we did see many of them boarding the planes on security cameras, we did hear their voices from the cockpit, we did hear descriptions and seat numbers from panicked passengers and crew, and we did hear bin Laden praise each and every one of the men and see their images martyred on the Arab net.

We did get confirmation from fight school personnel that the men who were suspected as being the pilots were the same men that were under their instruction in the recent past and strangely weren’t much interested in taking off and landing.

Is it possible for the dead hijackers to escape justice absent their relatives coming forward to give swabs?  Perhaps.  Perhaps even with the swabs and the right jury (people like Wiley) they would still be be found innocent.  You can ask O.J. about that.

Posted by Natalie on Aug 28, 2006 at 1:10 PM

Redhorse,

People can be gullible, ignorant,  a true believer, part of a huge bureaucratic cluster of by-the-book functionaries or whatever, and create immense problems without ANY degree of conspiracy being involved.

Were you ever in the military?

Posted by whattheheck on Aug 28, 2006 at 1:28 PM

WTH….come on…you can believe as you want…like I said before , your own personal life experiences…in my viewpoint….get in the way of your ability to view this set of “circumstances ” from a more objective perspective…...
On the other hand….my life experiences tend to let me view these developments as…just what it is…..a conspiracy….from the TWO stolen elections , to the first airliner , hitting the trade center to the invasion of Iraq and Afganistan….til this very day and moment…..

Yeah…..Bush Inc.. is so gullible , ignorant and inept that he has made multi-billoins of dollars for his family and friends…......can’t ya feel the love…

Posted by Redhorse on Aug 28, 2006 at 2:17 PM

But , ya know…so what….who cares what the Redhorse thinks…I never liked Bush in the first place….
News Flash….Benjamin Ferencz ; former prosecutor at Nuremberg ; successful in convictions of 22 Nazi officers involved in the genocide of innocent civilians….states that Bush and Hussein should be brought for prosecution before the Hague….
Bush for invading Iraq…..
Hussein for invading Kuwait…..
Now WTH…one would imagine , that Mr. Ferencz…looking at this from a perspective based in international law…would recommend that Pres.Bush did conspire…to plan and plot secretly…to achieve in appearance a legal action , but in fact was an illegal action…egregiosly criminally negligent…...

Posted by Redhorse on Aug 28, 2006 at 6:33 PM

The problem with the thinking of someone like Benjamin Ferencz is that it seems to conveniently ignore just how it became possible to try Nazi war criminals and Saddam Hussein in the first place. 

Lawyerly people like this are fine after the fact, but are essentially useless in getting mass murderers in a position where they can be dealt with by the “law”.  That is a job that is best suited for the U.S. military.

Posted by Natalie on Aug 28, 2006 at 7:03 PM

WTH

Rabbit is extremely busy just now, but just came across an interview which might be of value to you.

Now Ray McGovern is one of the most respected US intelligence professionals to have become publically known.  I cannot be sure, but it seems probable that you might have a modicum of respect for the opinions and experience of this man.  I can only say that if you do not, then you are playing with a short deck.  Dahr Jamail is a journalist of the utmost integrity but since this means he has been reporting matters which are not easily palatable for dittoheads he may not be your favorite.

For your sake and for no other, I am suggesting you read what McGovern says here and try to assimilate what is a straightforward, easily understod story with your…............................

First part of Ray McGovern Interview.

Second part is currently unavailable due to net congestion.

The rabbit has read nothing which has gone since his last visit, but will be catching up over the next twelve hours. 

Rabbit predicts Batgirl will be slinging mud, claiming nobody is qualified to say anything about 9/11 unless they speak of the fairy tale, and that she is the ultimate arbiter of who is qualified or not.

Just a guess.

Posted by Rabbit on Aug 28, 2006 at 7:31 PM

O.K., Natalie—-I’ll play your silly little game.

The recent revelations about the JFK assassination are an excellent example of superior science winning out over a politicized investigation.

As a person who has claimed not to be a scientist at all, how do you determine what is “superior science”?

The hijackers were on the plane that crashed into the towers, exloded into flames so hot that they (supposedly) softened the steel beams in a building that was designed to withstand the impact of a 747, burned for twenty minutes or so, and were then buried under quite a few floors that collapsed on top of the planes. Then the whole buildings collapsed with them.

Are you really dingy enough to believe that there was anything left of the hijackers and passengers to identify?  According to some firemen, it was hard to find anything identifiable as a phone or copy machine because the buildings and their contents had been so pulverized.

Posted by wileywitch on Aug 28, 2006 at 8:51 PM

http://www.dahrjamailiraq.com/

WTH, if you have some honest, open questions about the situation in Iraq—-and I trust that you do—-then you might want to send one to Dahr Jamail’s website. I don’t know how busy they are now, but I’ve found that if you ask a sincere and respectful question, you’ll get a sincere and respectful answer.

Posted by wileywitch on Aug 28, 2006 at 8:56 PM

Natalie….What difference does the fact of the US military have on.Benjamin.Ferencz ’ s opinion as a legal scholar…? What evidence do you have , that would point to Mr. Ferencz ‘s assumption that , the US military would not be of necessity in the achievement of the capture of Bush or Hussein for the crimes against Kuwait…or Iraq….?
Redhorse would suspect that , one would also need a healthy contingency of UN forces involved…....
Ferencz ‘s statement speaks volumes…how Bush is arrested doesn’t matter too much to this Horse….the sooner the better….....ya know….

Now Natalie , you forget to mention Bush in your comment..? .Ferencz included Pres. Bush in his comments…Should the US military handle the capture and delivery of Pres. George Bush to the Hague for prosecution based on crimes committed against the nation of Iraq…?

Maybe after he is out of office…huh…what do you think….?

.

Posted by Redhorse on Aug 28, 2006 at 9:24 PM

Redhorse,

Putting aside the fact that I can barely understand what I think you’re trying to say, are you of the opinion that Abe LIncoln, FDR, Truman, JFK, Johnson, Nixon, Reagan, GHW Bush, and Clinton also should have been brought before the “Hague” for bombing/attacking innocent civilians, invading countries that never attacked us, etc, etc?

Just trying to ascertain your consistency factor.

Posted by Natalie on Aug 28, 2006 at 9:40 PM

http://www.politicalcortex.com/story/2006/8/26/195425/883

Some of the most disturbing questions arise from the discovery and subsequent comments of Scott Forbes, someone who should have become a household name had the mainstream media done its job properly and raised important questions that have been largely left begging.

Because there was no electric power above the fiftieth floor there were also no security cameras or security locks.  There were many outside engineering personnel, however, coming and going in and out of the tower all weekend.

....

To tamper with a crime scene is a felony.  Whenever an act of arson occurs police representatives would be expected to arrive to quickly service and seal off the area.  As anyone schooled in criminal justice realizes, it is imperative to preserve crime scenes intact to assist further investigation and potential criminal prosecution.

Giuliani brought in Controlled Demolition, the same highly suspect firm which had completed the destruction of the Murtagh Federal Building in Oklahoma City in 1995, disposing of all evidence in the process.  The contract that was let just 11 days after 9/11 empowered Controlled Demolition to recycle the steel of the World Trade Center.

Ya ever wonder why with the cable news being almost nothing but speculation, we never heard the questions, asked ad nauseum—-did the hijackers intend to hit those specific floors? Did the hijackers beat everyone to the pancake theory and expect the buildings to collapse? Who was on the floors that were hit and the floors above them? Where were these people when the planes struck?

http://www.controlled-demolition.com/

Funny thing about this company, even though they list Murtagh under their forensic investigation lists, and have a tab called “World Records”, I didn’t see any mention of the WTC on their website. Maybe I just overlooked it.

Posted by wileywitch on Aug 28, 2006 at 9:44 PM

Natalie, why is a proclaimed Republican such as yourself indulging so much in moral relativism? Isn’t that the domain of “liberals”?

You just can’t seem to understand anything someone says about Bush if they haven’t criticized another president. If Bush destroyed China from space because he wanted to try out his new secret weapon—-an act without precedent—-does that mean that it would not be possible to judge his action?

I get tired of humoring this ‘Bush is the president’ thing, but if he only exists in comparison to other presidents then let that be Lincoln.

Posted by wileywitch on Aug 28, 2006 at 9:52 PM

Wiley,

There were many people who’s remains were identified at the WTC.  No, not hijackers, I never said that, but many of the building occupants and some of the airline passengers were identified. 

You can dispute that if you wish, but it might help to provide some kind of proof to back up your position.  (still waiting for proof about those “injects”)

I would suggest to you that the many colorful descriptions such that “everything was pulverized” were just that, colorful.  In reality, there were countless identifiable objects and human body parts within the debris piles.  How could there not be?  Use your common sense.

Posted by Natalie on Aug 28, 2006 at 9:58 PM

Lagomorph, Lagomorph, Lagomorph -

Now Ray McGovern is one of the most respected US intelligence professionals to have become publically (sic) known.

Ummm, no.  That may have once been true, but now he is a bipartisan nutcase.  Rumsfeld and Howard Dean both think McGovern is an anti-Semitic crazy.

Ray McGovern’s 27-year career as a CIA analyst spanned administrations from John F. Kennedy to George H. W. Bush.  Ray is now co-director of the Servant Leadership School, which provides training and other support for those seeking ways to be in relationship with the marginalized poor.  The School is one of ten Jubilee Ministries, not-for-profit organizations inspired by the ecumenical Church of the Saviour and established in an inner-city neighborhood in Washington, DC.

McGovern is Chairman of the Nature of Divine Power Department at the Servant Leadership School, a Fundamentalist, if you will. 

Poor McGovern is deluded.  I can well understand how you come to identify with him.

Posted by scorp on Aug 28, 2006 at 10:11 PM

Bile-y Bitching -

The administration responding, IMO, by leaping into an agenda much older than 9/11 and using the attack as a pretext for illegal activity on their parts.

My Goodness!  That is some opinion.  You are referring to the “illegal activity” of going to war in Iraq.  And you are 50% correct, which is 100% more than is normal for you.

The Iraq Liberation Act of 1998 set the “agenda” you are referring to:

An Act To establish a program to support a transition to democracy in Iraq.  ...

SEC. 2. FINDINGS.

The Congress makes the following findings:

(1) On September 22, 1980, Iraq invaded Iran, starting an 8 year war in which Iraq employed chemical weapons against Iranian troops and ballistic missiles against Iranian cities.

(2) In February 1988, Iraq forcibly relocated Kurdish civilians from their home villages in the Anfal campaign, killing an estimated 50,000 to 180,000 Kurds.

(3) On March 16, 1988, Iraq used chemical weapons against Iraqi Kurdish civilian opponents in the town of Halabja, killing an estimated 5,000 Kurds and causing numerous birth defects that affect the town today.  ...

(9) Since March 1996, Iraq has systematically sought to deny weapons inspectors from the United Nations Special Commission on Iraq (UNSCOM) access to key facilities and documents, has on several occasions endangered the safe operation of UNSCOM helicopters transporting UNSCOM personnel in Iraq, and has persisted in a pattern of deception and concealment regarding the history of its weapons of mass destruction programs.  ...

SEC. 3. SENSE OF THE CONGRESS REGARDING UNITED STATES POLICY TOWARD IRAQ.

It should be the policy of the United States to support efforts to remove the regime headed by Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq and to promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime.

You probably do not remember (you certainly do not care) that the vote for ILA1998 was unanimous in the Senate, overwhelmingly favorable (360-38) in the House, and was signed into law by President Clinton.  At the time, George Bush was Governor of Texas, and had limited influence on the deliberations of the Congress.

So, yes, the agenda you object to was set by a Democratic President, with the near unanimous approval of Democrats in the Congress.  But the events of 09/11 lent an urgency to dealing with terrorists and terrorist dictators, and the Iraq War Resolution 2003 was the law that authorized the implementation of ILA1998.  Now can you explain, IYSFO, what was “illegal” in any of this?

There were many lies told about WMD, and all those lies were told by Democrats who, after voting that Saddam possessed WMD in 1998, subsequently claimed that President Bush made it all up about the WMD in 2003.

I never cease to marvel at the self-delusion of leftists.  Anything that does not agree with their leftist agenda simply does not exist for them, even if it was documented in an Act of Congress sponsored by a Democratic Administration. 

And what possible objection can you have to canceling the ABM Treaty?  Are you nuts?  (Oh, sorry, for a minute there I forgot to whom I was speaking.)

Posted by scorp on Aug 28, 2006 at 10:39 PM

Natalie—-the whole point was the identity of the hijackers.

Scorp, take a flying leap.

Posted by wileywitch on Aug 28, 2006 at 11:18 PM

Poor Dumb Natalie,

“...what formal education I’ve had, which which I’ve always said has been none past high school.”

Surprise.

“...college for a couple years, but it was just wasted party time”

Ann Coulter? 

Well, that was an intelligent use of resources…

Anyway, Natalie, it’s not your lack of smarts that’s the problem. It’s your blind, fascistic, brown-shirted devotion to the gangsters who have taken over the nation.  You make comments about Nazis, but you fail to observe the most obvious parallels between the third reich, and the current fourth.

Bush’s grandfather was a big Nazi (Prescott), so much so that his bank was shut down by the justice department during World War 2 for “TRADING WITH THE ENEMY.”

After WW2, lots of Nazis got hired by the CIA.  This is common knowledge for people with some education, something you know nothing about.  You refuse to believe that CIA imports drugs, when the CIA’s inspector general acrually admitted to it! 

Ever heard of Barry Seal?  The biggest cocaine importer of the 1980s, perhaps of all time?  He worked for Vice President and former CIA head George H.W. Bush.  (That’s why they killed him; he was no longer properly under control).

“However, I can read, and I can reason.”

And mindlessly follow fascist, racist elites, no matter how tyrannical and dictatorial they have become, no matter how many laws they flout (war crimes and torture as especially repugnant).

Apparently you can also create quotes from thin air, too:

” And John Doraime’s friend General Benton “It would have taken two disintegration beams” Partin. “

I have googled the net for a reference to General Partin’s “disintegration beams” yet found nothing to substantiate this slur.

As the general’s report was no-doubt too complicated for you to delve into, I’ll explain:

The bomb that has been attributed to the Ryder truck (“4,000 pounds of nitrogen fertilizer plus fuel oil”) creates a blast wave of certain magnitude.  This blast wave is insufficient to have done that damage to the building FROM THAT DISTANCE, as the government contends.  A nice glaring piece of evidence that anyone can understand is that TREE on the lawn of the Murrah Federal Building STILL STANDING, AND UNDAMAGED between the truck blast and the crumpled front of the building.

Further, there are supporting columns and trusses blown in directions other than away from the blast.  Demolition charges had to have been used—AS BOMBS WERE REPORTED INSIDE THE BUILDING AND REMOVED BY THE BOMB SQUAD ON THE LOCAL EVENING NEWS THAT NIGHT.

Except, with such reasonable idiots like yourself, the national news can easily erase history, pretend there never were bombs inside the building, and concoct a completely phony cover story which most people will believe.

General Partin was an expert in high explosives and munitions design since the 1950s.  I would certainly defer to his analyis over yours, you ignorant mindless neo-fascist bitch.

I mean that in the most loving way, of course (not).

I’m also not surprised you applaud Israel’s war crimes and mass murder.  Your racist/zionist leanings are up front and visible.  Shame you wasted all that college.  You could use an education, seriously.  You don’t have a clue.

Crimes of the State Blog

Posted by johndoraemi on Aug 29, 2006 at 11:41 AM

Now we have to go over the whole Iraq escapade? 

This Scorp person is in complete denial about “depleted” uranium, and has been a shill for quite some time.

Evidently the marketing is what’s important.  If you call it “depleted” it must be so.  The Pentagon would never lie.

Oh, brother.

Come to think of it—Scorp, you’re right about Democrats and their imperialist war crime agenda.  Lock them up with Cheney, Rummy and the gang.  Lock them all up. 

I am not a Democrat.  I am certainly not a Rethuglican.  I’m a human. 

In the best interest of humanity, lock em all up.  The sooner the better.

Posted by johndoraemi on Aug 29, 2006 at 12:02 PM

After 9/11 pesident Bush has signed executive orders giving him sole authority to impose martial law, and suspend habeas corpus. This gives him dictatorial power over the people, without any checks and balances. All this because the terorrist hate our freedoms. After the attack of 9/11 the gov. declared war on the American people.

The gov. can jail you for life without charges, without a trial, and without a lawyer.

Executive order #10999 allows the gov. to take over all modes of transportation.
Executive order #11000 allows the gov. to mobilize civilians into work brigades under gov. supervision.
Executive order #11921 provides that the president can declare a state of emergency that is not defined, and Congress cannot review the action for six months.
Congressman Sensenbrenner’s bill(HR 1528) requires you to spy on your neighbors, including wearing a wire. Refusal would be punishable by a mandatory prison sentance of at least two years.
The gov. claims the power to seize all the finacial instruments: currency, gold, silver, and everthing else if they deem an emergency exists.

There are 190 countries in the world. America has bases in 130 of them. But we are told we are crazy to think that people in the administration are trying to spread the empire. Remember PNAC it looks like everything is going to plan. Oh Im sorry, I made a mistake. They are just defending us from the terorrist who hate our freedoms. How could I or anyone have thought it was a long ago plan to spread the empire.

The patriot act permits:
Secret FBI and police searches of your home and office.
Secret gov. wiretaps on your phone, computer and/or internet activity.
Secret investigations of your bank records, credit cards and other financial records.
Secret investigations of your library and book activites.
Secret examination of your medical, travel and business records.
The freezing of funds and assets without prior notice or appeal.
The cration of secret “watch lists” that ban those named from air and other travel.

Natalie before you say something to compare Clinton to Bush I will add that the widespread use of wiretapping Americans with the secret program code named Echelon during the Cliton administation proves this practice was not started because of 9/11. but is standard procedure.

Who is it that the gov. considers a threat? It looks to me that its us. As much as they investigate us the people, you would think that they could put 1/2 the money, energy and time into the investigation of 9/11 and let the people see all the evidence. It Seems to me the gov. is more interested in investigating the American people than doing a real investigation of 9/11.
If we the people are to be looked at as if under a microscope then the gov. should also.

Cant you see who gains from 9/11? Is it the people in the middle east? The people in the gov. were right when they said in the PNAC doc. that the american people will never go for this but for some catalysing event. Now all we have is sheeple who belive the gov. is only trying to protect its citizens and wanting to spread its freedom and democracy to those in the middle east.

Posted by honestjoe on Aug 29, 2006 at 12:54 PM

Wake up people, please.

Both houses in congress are just a show and dont matter or make policy. Policy comes from the federal reserve, except our foreign policy that comes from the international monetary fund. The powers of our finacial system want nothing short of a world system of control not by the gov. but by corporations and the few elite who own and run them.

So do you realy think that its just some crazy idea that there are now a few globelist elite who dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole and use America as the strong arm to do it?

We are heading tword a one world gov.. Think about all of the so called free trade agreements like NAFTA, CAFTA, ect.. are nothing more than the goverments of the world through the central banks to create a one world gov.. There not free trade there gov. managed trade and they are intentionaly destroying the american worker just like the intentional goal of puting the U.S. in the grave through debt that we or I should say our children cant pay.

These trade agreements are controling our laws and the laws of the world and we have no say at all.

The fact is that its because of the powerful elite, through international corporations and the banks is why the goverment does not inforce our borders or our imagration laws. The globalist want a one world gov. without any borders. A new world order. If our gov. were realy woried about terorrist why do they keep the borders wide open? At the same time they tell us that they have to track all of our movements and what we buy, do,or say.

The war on terrorism is a war on your mind and your freedom.

Posted by honestjoe on Aug 29, 2006 at 2:44 PM

I sincerely belive the banking institution having the issuing power of money, are more dangerous to liberty than standing armies. - Thomas Jefferson

Becuse of globalization the U.S. must accept other nations’laws. Under CAFTA treaty the sale of vitamins and supplements will be illeagal. Say hello to big brother as he tells you what to do with your pesonal health. Senate bill #1873 allows the gov. to vaccinate you with untested vaccines against your will. The FDA says Americans do not have a right to know wich foods are genetically modified.

We can’t be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans.—- Bill Clinton March 11, 1993

In the absence of the gold standerd, there is no way to protect savings from cofiscation through inflation. There is no safe store of value… [Gold] stands as a protector of property rights.—Alan Greenspan

If the American people ever allow the banks to control the issuance of their currency, the banks and corperations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property, until their children wake up homless on the continent their fathers conqured.—Thomas Jefferson

I heard a rumor that Bush called the constitution ” just a god damn peice of paper.’ That couldnt be our president could it?

Posted by honestjoe on Aug 29, 2006 at 3:47 PM

Sorry, my mistake John.

To be more accurate, I should have said disintegration <u>rays</u>.

Of course the more pertinent point is that our dear General attended an event sponsored by a holocaust denial/revisionist organization.  Either he’s on the same page as these real racists, or he’s dumb as a stump.

Were you there, John?

A tree undamaged between the truck and the building a mere 15 feet away?  Please, do provide further documentation.  Seems unlikely, but what do I know?  I never bin to kolij.  (eggsep to party!!)

Posted by Natalie on Aug 29, 2006 at 5:44 PM

A two word suggestion Joe:

Paragraphs.  Spellcheck.

After that, maybe we can decipher what you’re trying to say.

Posted by Natalie on Aug 29, 2006 at 5:57 PM

Dear Mr. Atta,

I’m pleased to inform you that your blessed son Mohammad has been found innocent of deliberately piloting/crashing American Airlines Flight 11 into the World Trade Center North Tower in New York City on September 11, 2001.  An international tribunal, composed of a Witch and a Horse from America, a Rabbit from Australia and a Frog from France has found your son to be completely blameless.

Our team quite effectively quoted the internationally respected negotiator and logician Bart Simpson:

“I didn’t do it, nobody saw me do it, you can’t prove anything.”

Praise be to Allah, you can now sleep easy knowing your son is as innocent as a baby seal.

Mr. Atta responds:

Thank you for your kind efforts, but I feel I must appeal your decision.  I was initially shocked to think that my angelic & peace loving baby seal-faced son would do such a thing, but you know, none of us has seen or heard from him since that day.  When we found a small “How to pilot a plane with no money down and without taking off or landing” guide hidden within the pages of the July issue of “Babes Without Burkas” under his bed, we became painfully aware that our son had led a double life. 

Besides, I’ve become quite a celebrity on my cul-de-sac.  Everyone is so proud of what Mo-Mo did to the Great Satan’s towers.

Please send me the proper forms so I may appeal your thoughtful, but I’m afraid unwelcome, decision.

In Allah’s name,

Mr. Atta

Posted by Natalie on Aug 29, 2006 at 7:32 PM

Natalie -

Neat take on Mr. Atta.  Lagomorph, BB, and Musical John are so ridiculous, satire and ridicule may be the only things that will reach them, but they are probably too dense for even that. 

The worst PR fiasco in Iraq was Abu Ghraib, of course, but even that had its moments.  Everyone in the world was condemning the USA for those morons and their photos, but most people did not pick up that the Shia thought that panties on some Sunni’s head was hilarious, the prisoners assumed to be, and probably were, Sunni, of course.  Then one of the subjects of the photos stated that he had been utterly humiliated by his treatment and could no longer live in Iraq.  He wanted to move to the USA immediately!

Posted by scorp on Aug 29, 2006 at 9:22 PM

Honest Joe -

DON’T PANIC, HONEST JOE!  Panic never solves anything, and it makes you look ridiculous. 

You may or may not be honest, but you definitely are not too swift.  Like Lagomorph, who took five years to figure out that bin Laden was behind 09/11, when the proof was right there and it was obvious to most people before sunset on that fateful day. 

Take Executive Order #10999, dealing with transportation.  President Kennedy signed EO 10999 thirty-four years ago, and it is strictly in accordance with Federal Law, 1958 (72 Stat. 1799).  EO 10999 grants EMERGENCY POWERS in an EMERGENCY.  Are there potential emergencies out there that might require emergency procedures?  Things like hijacked airliners or ships, or hurricanes?  Of course in 1962 the most likely source of emergencies was the Soviet Union or natural disasters.  Now the most likely sources of emergencies are Islamofascists or natural disasters, both of which we have experienced recently.  Do you think we ought to ignore these possibilities? 

(All Executive Orders cite the relevant enabling law.  Congress passes laws, the Executive enforces laws that Congress passes.  Straight out of the Constitution.  Don’t forget.  I am constantly teaching Government 101 to little morons, and it gets SO tiresome.)

All your other examples are equally silly, but who has time to go through all of them?  If you can’t figure these things out for yourself, you can continue to stew in your own ignorance, which may be the best outcome for a person of your obvious talents.

Posted by scorp on Aug 29, 2006 at 10:04 PM

Scorp, Natalie

Do you feel that Atta was in any way working for the pakistani ISI, and or the Saudi’s, and or involved with drug runing? Also I was wondering why you think three listed one of the U.S. military bases as an address and what do you think was his involvment with Able Danger?
Do you think it odd that Omar sheikh Saeed was the guy that did the actual wiring using the alias Mustafa Muhammad Ahmad over a period of time to accounts controlled by Atta. You seem informed about all of this so I think you know that Omar was convicted for the murder of Daniel Pearl and you are aware of all the conections established by that conviction. I just was thinking in my opinion it seems hard to just say its all a coincident.

Posted by honestjoe on Aug 29, 2006 at 10:38 PM

Aye,  johndoraemi it is “depleted” because it is no longer useful as nuclear fuel and it’s much cheaper to give it away or sell it as scrap metal than to go to all the expense of disposing it according to regulations.

It’s “born again” in ballistic weaponry that ‘penetrates’ metals and dna. Really it’s re-emasculated uranium;  but Halliburton, KGB, and Bechtel don’t like to brag about mass indiscriminate murder, mutation, and environmental destruction that will spread throughout the planet for all human time.

Oh, Natalie, nothing says uneducated or poorly educated middle class wannabee like suggesting that you can’t understand what someone is saying because of their spelling errors. A spelling error is a spelling error, it’s not like misplacing a decimal in a logarithm for launching the space shuttle. This isn’t rocket science. A failure to use your intelligence to figure out the spelling errors or to ask for clarification is stupid with its lips pursed and its hands on its hips——might as well walk into the closet and slam the door after telling everyone off. Going back to school might be a good idea—-get back into partying, and maybe marry up.

BTW, Mark Twain was a lousy speller, dear, that’s why there are editors in this world.

Posted by wileywitch on Aug 29, 2006 at 11:05 PM

Actually Wiley, I was trying to be kind to the boy.  The real problem was the content, not the construction.

As a compassionate conservative, I was merely giving him a second chance not to be “left behind”.

Let’s see if he takes advantage.

Posted by Natalie on Aug 29, 2006 at 11:31 PM

Scorp

Thank you for your response but I must say I think you must have missed some signing statements that Bush has made that changes how it was intended in 62 as to now. I guess Im going to have to let you in on the more current laws and changes and what that means now. I am not even going to debate the legality of his over 800 laws congress didnt pass.

Now you are aware of the Army’s civilian inmate labor program? Im talking about the 2005 amendment to it. Do you feel that and the others make not just a difference but a huge difference in how they relate to us today.

Im sure it is posiable that I am mistaken but I have been under the impretion that alot of these are done because of 9/11. The amendments and the new laws. I am aware of when the executive orders were made but thank you any way. I had figured that it was aparent that I was talking about the changes that make a differance for us today. Before you start dont start going into FEMA and all the cold war resons orders were given and so on. I am only talking about changes and new laws that have happend since 9/11. Again I am aware of the dates to the orders thank you. It is my fault for asuming you new what I ment and how it aplied to today. Now I think I have to add that FEMA was started in world war II before you correct me about the cold war comment though a lot of changes happend to it during the cold war. But again I am talking about after 9/11.
I would be grateful for any information you have on such things even if it means it will come with insults. You know its bad for your health to be so angry of course that could be just a consperacy so take it as you will Im just trying to help. By the way I think thats why most of us are posting is to help and learn.

I see you said that the laws bush signed are contitutional and it looks like you are saying the same about his orders. I apologise to be the one to give you the bad news but there are some out there that dont agree with you. Please stay calm and take deep breaths because I think this last bit of news is going to hurt. It looks to me that even the supreme court feels that Bush may have been a bit unconstitutoinal and I think that Bush knows that the courts will find some of his other laws or orders unconstitutional as well. Please correct me if Im in need to be.

Posted by honestjoe on Aug 29, 2006 at 11:38 PM

Oh, Natalie, you’re so cute when your condescending. As a “compassionate conservative” you say the opposite of what you mean, and then pretend that is a kindness on your part.

That’s so noble, I can’t stop yawning.

adios

Posted by wileywitch on Aug 29, 2006 at 11:43 PM

“your condescending”?

Please, Wiley, get it together!

Actually Wiley, you’re halfway there, because your construction is pretty good.  Put another feather in your cap and make your content match reality, if indeed that’s what you’re intending to do.

Otherwise, don’t change a thing!!

Your write, I am cute, though, and not only when I’m being compassionately condescending.

Posted by Natalie on Aug 30, 2006 at 12:47 AM

Oh, gag. Your plea to authority again. I already read this one. So what? The majority don’t want to rock the boat. Just one more reason why Americans are so poorly educated——they’re afraid of ideas and believe that positions confer actual authority about what is real and true,  Universities have become quite accustomed to altering their “findings” to please the corporations that sponsor them.  They are working for the same people our government is.

I’m together dear. Quite together. I don’t need to work incessantly to hold up a lie with paperclips and bailing wire——coddling the reputation of a drunk, and living in denial.

“Content matching reality”? Tell us exactly what happened on 9/11 Natalie.  And explain all the “content” that doesn’t match “reality”? Like passports that can survive infernos, and skyscrapers that collapse straight down, when hit on a side, and NORAD and the FAA missing all those hijacked planes so long, and W. sitting in that classroom as if he knew that he wasn’t endangering the children by being there while the U.S. was under attack; and radical “Islamofacsists”  going to a strip joint and making a scene of themselves the night before the murder and then packing suitcases to take with them, and the fake bin laden tapes, and how amateur pilots pulled off the attack on the WTC, and how all those boxcutters got through airport security, and how W. said, “you’ve covered your ass, now go” to an agent at Crawford who was pleading desperately with him to pay attention to the report “bin laden plans to attack” that describes casing buildings in NYC and using airplanes as weapons, and how al queda can pull off nine eleven but hasn’t done so much as blow up a gas station since, and how George “hit the trifecta”.

Put it ALL together Natalie.

Posted by wileywitch on Aug 30, 2006 at 9:07 AM

The great nexus!  The unification of all things.  Knowledge is power.

Scorpse, why would you take a small sentence out of context like that when my post already answered your pathetic grasp after some sort of small pyrric victory for what?  What have you got that supports the official story?  Nothing but spurious, mostly disproven claims!

I still don’t accept al-Qaeda or OBL were involved as anything more than patsies and that has always been what I have believed.  I have pointed to the lack of evidence of OBL’s involvement, the FBI have NOTHING!  I have always said if OBL was involved it was only as a patsy, and certainly al’Qaeda was only a patsy I didn’t hink OBL was involved because he definately said he was not. There is still only one much discredited bit of video as the only bit of evidence of his involvment.  Due to private communications with the translator and analyst for that recording, I am in aposition to know a bit more about it than before and certainly more than you do, ignorant troll. I am more ready to accept he knew of it, though organise it he did not.  He didn’t get NORAD to stand down, nor did he get the three WTC’s to collapse.  Nothing has changed of any consequence Scorpy so you can pack away your champagne and party hats.  By saying what I believe about this and why Scorpy, I am not backflipping or backpedalling or any of those stage jingo words which are common to your profession as a Clown Troll. 

By revising an opinion like this I am showing reasoning when faced with new information.

You should try it sometime.

Posted by Rabbit on Aug 30, 2006 at 10:24 AM

Scorpling says:

Rumsfeld and Howard Dean both think McGovern is an anti-Semitic crazy.

Well I can see your point Scorp.  Howard Dean and Donald Rumsfeld are certainly appropriate opinions to be sought about this….....................

It happens that I know quite a bit about Ray McGovern’s views and he isn’t anti-semitic, not a bit of it.  He is anti-zionist but all the best people are these days SCORPSE.  It is even fashionable nowadays to be anti-zionist, and that isn’t remotely akin to anti-semitism Scorpling.

As for crazy, well a couple of arch Neo-con Zionists calling someone else crazy, that is an amazing thing….......................

Scorpy…..................DON’T PANIC, HONEST JOE!

Honest Joe I see that Scoop has tried his favorite line on you.  He is a one trick pony as you will learn.  Scorpy changes his trick from time to time but one trick is all he knows at the one time and he copies these from instances when he himself was humiliated in some internet exchange.  In his simple mind he imagines the same line repeated by him to his tormentors at another time will have the same devastating effect it had on him.  This is because he lacks a sense of context.  Context is something which has no meaning for a Scoop.  He plucks little bubbles of history out of space with nothing connecting them.  He will speak of Nazi’s attacking the world suddenly in 1939 as if they just hatched out of an egg the day before.  And he’ll speak of their defeat as if that was the complete end once and for all of those fascists who were involved in the third recih.  He plucks sentences out of context and tries to build self contained little statements out of ones own words which somehow show one saying something he wants one to say.  That is one of his saddest efforts, but he cannot help himself.  Grubby is as grubby does.  He is a grubby Scorpling and he does grubby things.  You should be spared from the knowledge of some of the things he does wth a length of hose and a part of his anatomy, closest to his brain. (sic)

He has these standard simple tricks for which he has trained himself to feel fulfillment over whenever he can toss them in.  He has his fetishes.  He has never gotten over his own cleverness for coming up with the scientific name for a rabbit, and he has been on it ever since, never once realising that as a source of irony, (which is something he talks of but has no concept of) it doesn’t compare to Scoop, or SCorpse.  Either of which have an approriately ironic implication.  What are we supposed to get from Lagomorph?  No idea, but to Scorpy it is the height of his ironic nomenclature which is why he doesn’t even bother to vary it.  Me, I’m always tossing up between Scoop, SCorpse and Scorpling.  Never quite sure which does him justice or whether there is not yet more hidden meaning in his Freudian impulses.

Sometimes the rabbit calls him Scorpy for old times sake, back when Rabbit owned Scorpy as his personal troll.  Scorp dissapointed the rabbit so much in the end, that he recently declared Scorpy to be a free range troll again.

Posted by Rabbit on Aug 30, 2006 at 10:49 AM

Twenty things we know about 9/11 five years later.

It must be getting hot is shillsville Nat’n'Scorp.

Bad ones bad ones, what you gonna do?
What you gonna do when they come for you?
When the truth comes bad ones no funs.

...............................^^...............................

Posted by Rabbit on Aug 30, 2006 at 11:26 AM

<i>

Posted by Natalie on Aug 30, 2006 at 11:54 AM

wileywitch

In your last post to Natalie you wrote about Atta at the bar/strip club. I have been trying to figure out how at 15:58 on Sept 7 a trasfer from Al Shehehi’s Atta’s Account. This pushes the begining of the drinking to later than 4 p.m. or somehow the patsies interrupted their session. Then on Sep 7 at 16:56 in Deerfeild Beach Al Shehehi’s made an ATM withdrawl from Saeed Al Ghamdi’s Account and was taken on video.
Now all of this is going on while he is at Shuckums in Hollywood as stated by several witnesses in Hollywood. Deerfeild is 20-25 miles away from Hollywood and they can only go to Shuckums in Hollywood after 4 p.m. But in order to be in Deerfeild Beach Al Shehehi would have to leave as soon as he got to Shuckums and then he could have only made it back to Shuckums for his well known drinking session around 6 p.m. Atta would have had to leave Shuckums at latest by 7 p.m. to make his flight to Baltimore.
Now this leavs one singel hour for their drinking but please keep in mind that all the witnesses say Atta and Al Shehehi drank together not that Atta was alone and that the to drank heavily. This is confirmed by the (made $48.00 while they were drinking) By the gov. report they stayed 3hrs or more.

This is the gov. reports. They cant even get their own story right. What are there two more of them?

Posted by honestjoe on Aug 30, 2006 at 1:37 PM

HI HECK

One more for your reading list should be Thomas Ricks “Fiasco- The American Military Adventure in Iraq”. amazon on fiasco

This documents very well HOW SOME   individual US batallion commanders did the best job humanly and humanely possible, as old soldiers like WTH, frog, wiley, rabbit would also have done it .

( Strange to think of rabbit and frog as Old Soldiers, compared to the NWO GOP Armchair-warrior -miltarists like Nattyshill and Scorp, but life is surprising .  I remember hearing of a legless Nam veteran war-protestor having his wheelchair overturned by the Cops—- in a demo—- well ” he was a troublemaker”.  And the cops DO obey Orders. Like in Nazi Germany .) 

You will remember that Nathaniel Fick’s USMC colonel was willing to let Iraqi - kids civilian wounded just DIE , until FICK intervened, and SHAMED his BOSS into doing the right thing ?

Now we have FUBAR .

Under Saddam the iraqis had cars and petrol, NoW under Bush they have cars and a two-day wait for petrol.

No surprise.

On 28/8 0929 you state

can accept a sense of urgency post 9/11 and since both Afghanistan and Iraq were known anti-U.S. trouble spots feel no more “justification” for action was needed. BUT — we could have used Special Ops on training camps to send a message rather than committing such a large force.

HAVE YOU FORGOTTEN THAT A FEW MONTHS BEFORE 911 THE us GAVE £43 MIO IN AID TO AFGHANISTAN ?

iF you accept the official story, 15 Saudis out of 19 mad bombers, Saudi Arabia should have been Shocked and Awed . BIG SILENCE . 28 pages of Kean “redacted “.

The whole thing stinks.

In the past few years little old ladies who decoded German intercepts in UK 1943, at Bletchley Park, have finally broken their vows of silence, just 60 years later !

The Manhattan Project involving thousands , remained secret.

Operation Overlord, invading just 100k north of here, instead of 300 miles away, remained secret.

I tend towards the belief that explosives WERE planted in the Three Towers. As i posted here before, these were probably not at all “conventional explosives”  on which I disagreed with Stephen Jones.

John Doraemi has written here about OKLA CITY and WTC 1993.

Some way back HERE , Nattyshill accused someone of ignoring the “CONVENTIONAL WISDOM “, on some subject or other ; a wonderful proof of her own ignorance .

HEY NATTY—- the “conventional wisdom” is what morons beliieve.

WTH the disquieting truth , as you have noticed,  is that while millions of us disagree, the SYSTEM goes on regardless.

We may disagree on 911.

Morons will tell you that civil Liberties in the USA are NOT disappearing.

My friends and I here in UK and France DO notice that they are disappearing here.

ALL IN THE NAME OF THAT WAR ON TERRA.

( small PS—since when has old frog been a terrist ?  so why should he be surveilled ? )

Posted by frog on Aug 30, 2006 at 3:47 PM

New York Post 5-28-02

Dr. Mohamed Atta and his new wife, Sophie, spent the weekend before the terror atacks in New York city, arriving on friday Sep. 7 and staying untile sunday, Sep. 9, when they returned to Maryland. But this Mohamed Atta was not the hijaker that crashed a jumbo jet into the world trade center. The New York vistor was a soft-spoken kidney specialist from Maryland whose horrible case of mistaken identity has led to months of harassment.

Im starting to think that there had to be two of each in order for the FBI story to work and there are over 50 examples of this happening.

On wedensday, new reports surfaced about another potential terrorist link to Portland. A Saudi pilot, who is on an FBI watch list for people wanted for questioning about possible terrorist ties, told a Moraccon newspaper that he had left a small plane at the Portland jetport. Khaled Alzeedi, owner of an aviation company that operates out of Delaware, Saudi Arabia, Moracco, had bought two small planes in Tennessee in the weeks before Sep. 11 attacks. Alzeedi and three of his assistants later flew out one of his planes to Portland.
Alzeed said he dropped off his plane at the jetport because he needed a biger fuel tank. He then left the country and said he planned to return, but could not because of the terrorist attacks.
Yet the FBI refuses to say why they want to speak with Alzeedi or why his plane is under surveilance at Northeast Airmotive CO., Portland Police Chief Michael Chitwood says he has a lot of unanswered questions about the plane and the Saudi pilot. He sent two detectives to Northeast Airmotive on thursday, but the employees there said the FBI told them not to talk with anyone about the plane.
“The FBI is saying there’s no conection with this plane to Atta or Sep. 11, but their not sharing why they want to talk to the pilot,” Chitwood said. “It bothers me, if there is no big deal to this, then why the hell didnt the FBI tell us about this six weeks ago?” Portland Press Hearld 10-21-01

Posted by honestjoe on Aug 30, 2006 at 4:00 PM

JOE. Give links. Even the shills quite often do so.

Posted by frog on Aug 30, 2006 at 4:28 PM

Aging and increasingly decrepit plants operating longer than they were designed to run will likely fail. Old machines and parts break down. A reactor breakdown could cause a meltdown. In 2002 the severely corroded Davis-Besse nuclear reactor , just 20 miles southeast of Toledo, OH, came within a small fraction of an inch of steel from causing a tragic nuclear accident. License extension applications for 14 nuclear plants are currently under review by the Nuclear Regulatory Commission. We are allowing ourselves to be the unwitting victims of our own nuclear terror.

Instead of ending the nuclear age, the Bush administration plans to expand it. Early site permits for new reactors are being processed in Mississippi, Virginia and Illinois (Chicago is ringed by eleven reactors already). And with the prospect of huge taxpayer subsidies footing colossal construction costs, utilities are jockeying into the starting gate for the biggest cash grab in industry history.

Furthermore, we are yet to solve the problem of high-level waste produced by reactors with no safe storage solution on-site or elsewhere. So far, the states of Nevada and Utah have been singled out for a political mugging. A “permanent” geological burial site is slated for Yucca Mountain, NV, while a penniless Indian Tribe – the Goshute band in Utah – has been singled out to take “temporary” custody of the waste while the Yucca Mountain quagmire persists. Nuclear waste cask transportation to these sites could set up rolling terrorist targets criss-crossing the country through major population centers for decades.

To add to the insult, there is an even more insidious threat from nuclear power, one that stays with us every day that reactors continue to operate and beyond. The nuclear fuel chain, from the mining, milling and enrichment of uranium through fuel fabrication and operation in nuclear reactors, despite industry propaganda, is not “emissions-free.” Every uranium mine, mill tailing pile, operating reactor and nuclear waste dump “emits” harmful radiation long after the last watt of electricity is generated.

The U.S. National Academy of Sciences has established that there is no safe dose of radiation. There is no longer doubt about the damage that can result from a single radiation track through a cell. The findings of adverse reactions from low-dose impacts of radiation in cellular, molecular and DNA levels have been researched by radiation microbiologists in Great Britain, Canada, Japan and the United States.

Not only do reactors emit, they also leak radiation. Three reactor sites in Illinois have been leaking large quantities of tritium and other isotopes into ground water. The Indian Point nuclear plant, 35 miles from midtown Manhattan, has allowed tritium and strontium-90 to seep into the Hudson River. We already know that contaminated groundwater at Connecticut Yankee has been discovered, and strontium-90 has been found in goat milk five miles from the Connecticut Millstone plant. Strontium-90 is linked to bone cancer, cancer of the soft tissue and cancer of the blood. Tritium causes cancers and can damage DNA. We must demand to know what is in the water around every nuclear plant. To do nothing is to perpetuate this terror.

We terrorize ourselves and our unborn by tolerating nuclear plants in our midst.

The United States even terrorizes the heavens. In January 2006 NASA launched twenty-five pounds of highly-toxic plutonium from Florida on a New Horizons space probe to the planet Pluto. It uses plutonium-238, the most toxic element ever created. An accident – such as the one the Challenger underwent – could have left central Florida a nuclear wasteland.

The United States is in a “War against Terrorism.” If that is really true, then our most important step is to end the self-imposed nuclear terror at home.

link to article

Tony Blair’s chief scientist also said the threat of global warming is FAR MORE important han “”“”“terra”“” .

Posted by frog on Aug 30, 2006 at 4:41 PM

Yo Heck

Serious question for ya.

Given a small fraction of the treasure already spent ( squandered) on not- rehabilitating New Orleans,  would Chavez of Venezuela, Castro of Cuba, and CERTAINLY Hizbullah ,  have done better than GWB ?

No doubt at all.

Failed president. A sign of a failed Society. Dramatically inefficient., like UK, france, etc. 

Banana Republic with no bananas, even.

Just another Pôlice State—as was the GDR with it’s STASI .  FBI = STASI.

Half the people informing on the other half, as we can see when EVERY madmovement is infiiltrated from the recent Sears Tower Seven to tim mcveigh’s OKLA group, to WTC 1993. .

One of MY reasons for suspecting COMPLICITY, at least,  of the admin in 911, is that it has been done before.

Doraemi reminds us about the CIA and drug-smuggling. Its on the RECORD , Congressional, etc. . AND it has not stopped.

Crime goes on. Certain subsections of the CIA do just that , and no more.  Other CIA people are squeaky clean, know nothing about it, try to do their patriotic job, then resign early when they realise they are in the minority , out of the loop.

Most stay silent, more or less. Speaking out can be a death sentence.

Mafia Rules.

so   much for the american dream….................

Posted by frog on Aug 30, 2006 at 5:09 PM

Frog

Could you please show me how you post your links. I have been doing so much research that I have not yet taken the time to learn how to do some of the most basic things as post a link. Thank you for any help.

Http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov./notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution.html

P.S. I have so much I want to share.

Posted by honestjoe on Aug 30, 2006 at 5:31 PM

test
“”“”“”“”“”“”“this page cannot be found”“”“”“”“”“”.

will now try——————-

BLAIRWATCH

When doing html, the slightest error is fatal. so a missed “space” is DEATH .

Notice the ‘space’ above between ‘a’ and ‘href’. ????????????? on your notification.

Posted by frog on Aug 30, 2006 at 5:47 PM

Joe -

Executive Orders.  Signing statements.  Globaliztion.  Free Trade.  Federal Reserve.  International Monetary Fund.  International Corporations and the Banks.  New World Order.  PNAC. 

Is there any left-wind talking point you have not listed?  Have you any thought process beyond what the socialist ideologists are trying to force on us?  You know, of course, that socialism has a terrible track record, destroying lives and property every time it gains control. 

This is the United States of America.  We have proven repeatedly since Henry Wallace in 1948 that the American people do not want socialism.  Every time we flirt with the left (Johnson, Carter, Clinton) we end up in recession and the economy is devastated.  And still you persist.

Well, knock yourself out, boy. I’m here to tell you we won’t put up with your nonsense

Posted by scorp on Aug 30, 2006 at 5:48 PM

JOE

test
“”“”“”“”“”“”“this page cannot be found”“”“”“”“”“”.

will now try——————-

BLAIRWATCH

When doing html, the slightest error is fatal. so a missed “space” is DEATH .

Notice the ‘space’ above between ‘a’ and ‘href’. ????????????? on your notification.

Posted by frog on Aug 30, 2006 at 5:59 PM

SCorpsey

Love to see you accusing Others of being “Ideologues”,  pots and kettles, Old Scorpytude.

Tell us again how Globalisation, FREETRADE, and the IMF, and the WTO, and NAFTA, And CAFTA, have made working lives so much better in the USA.

Do NOT forget to tell us how NOT raising the Minimum Wage is good for us, BECOS ......

Do NOT forget to tell us that the RICH should keep ALL they receive…, BECOS ..............their riches will ‘trickle down’ someday to the poor…

Posted by frog on Aug 30, 2006 at 6:17 PM

Honestjoe, I don’t really get that much into disussing specifics on 9/11. The way I see it, the government made allegations. The ball is in their court.  The government has failed to do thorough forensic investigations, failed to hold people in charge of air defense accountable, failed to make a case, failed to “prove” anything. The “stories” are Fractured Fairy Tales. I think it was cunning to allow so many obvious impossibilities into the story. We could argue individual issues til Tuesday after the cows come home.

But all you have to do is not believe the bullshit that interferes with the natural understanding that those planes didn’t make the towers fall down in their footprints like that. With a little knowledge about air defense it is impossible to “understand” how four hijacked planes could turn off their transponders and fly off-course all the hell over the northeastern United States without bells ringing within minutes of their departure from their flight paths and their failures to identify with their transponders on, or by voice communications.

It’s been five years and the bat up there is talking about fractions of truth. Five years, and the government can’t give us the whole truth? We just get crap from Hollywood and a Popular Mechanics hit piece against the truth movement with Michael Chertoff’s cousin as the fact-checker?

What the hell are we paying these people for?

Posted by wileywitch on Aug 30, 2006 at 6:28 PM

HI JOE

have you read Howard Zinn’s “Peoples History of the USA ” ?

I want an answer on that !

Categorising people into “blocs or stereotypes such as ‘socialist ’ ” , when they do not belong to any particular PARTY, or ‘leftwind’, when they profoundly dislike King George 111 Dubya Bush,  has always struck me as dumb, but Old Scorp is a classic case of arrested development.

Give him a cople of secs, and he will accuse you and I of helping Stalin to exterminate 80mn , all because we disagree with him !

A sad case.

Posted by frog on Aug 30, 2006 at 6:31 PM

scorp

You think Im a socialist? You are so far off. I am a pure conservative. Wich is not what Bush is at all. The neo cons have totaly distorted what a conservative is. A true conservative is one who stands for the protection of our constitution the way it is writen. I feel that we Americans should go back to being a Republic not this democracy. Most people dont even no what it means anymore because they are perposely missinformed. The American people are being lied to constintly and have become slaves and dont even know it. Most dont even know that the Federal Reserve is a made for profit privet corporation whos share holders are not American citizens. The American slaves dont know that Tax from their 1040 or W2 goes derictly to the federal reserve to pay off the intrest they charge the tresury for printing the money.
Neo cons are facist. Who was it that said facisim should be called corpratism because it is the perfect merger between the banks and the corporations with the goverment? That is what we have now.
Show me the law that says we have to pay income Tax. Please scorp show me please, please, show me. If you can find the law you can collect the many cash rewards being offerd. Show me the law slave. Show me the law and collect the rewards please slave. Either that or wake up and see what is realy going on.

Posted by honestjoe on Aug 30, 2006 at 6:53 PM

Frog

Thanks for the info. I will read that link as soon as finish with what Im doing. But I did have a moment to glance at it. Try this
http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution.html
I put a . after gov dont.
Open the one on Atta (OG0002.02 at the bottom of the page)

wilewitch

Thank you and yes I agree it is so obvious. I am starting to think that some of the people who claim they dont see or know of anything unuseual about it are in total deniel or Im sorry to say must be ok with telling a LIE.

Posted by honestjoe on Aug 30, 2006 at 7:34 PM

Today:
Nist admits that the investigation into the collapse of world trade center 7 has been insufficent and they are now ” considering wether hypothetical blast points could have played a role in initiating the collapse”

Well it took them how long? I guess they started to panic when they found out they can be charged with the cover up and the aiding and abeding of the criminal eliment within the goverment that did this.

http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheet/faqs_8_2006.htm

I still think they will do what they can to slow the investigation down.

Posted by honestjoe on Aug 30, 2006 at 9:10 PM

Oh, but to answer your question, Joe—-it makes no sense whatsoever for people planning on hijacking a commercial aircraft and crashing it into a skyscraper to be out making a scene the night before the deed. Whoever carried out the hijacking was a soldier. A good soldier sleeps when he can, and suicide martyrs don’t need to pack luggage to be stowed under the plain unless it will explode, or in some way help in the mission. However “crazy” and “depraved”  anyone wants to make the alleged hijackers out to be, the attacks of 9/11 were not something that the people who carried it out would screw around with——they needed to be “on”. It seems screamingly obvious, but apparently, the movie depictions have won that round.

Whatever you want to call the hijackings——they were carefully planned attacks and stupendously lucky hijackers to have gotten away with it—-whether they got their reward or not. We still don’t have a real clue who carried out the attacks and how, and exactly how and why they got past NORAD and security at the Pentagon.

We don’t know if there were people on the planes, and if they were, whether they were dead or alive. Have you seen all the heartwrenching interviews with family and friends of the people on the hijacked planes? I haven’t. Maybe I just missed those. They might be in one of the movies.

We don’t know if the planes that hit the towers, pentagon, and ground in Pennsylvania were the hijacked aircraft.

We don’t know if there were hijacked aircraft.

All we really know was that we saw a really dramatic scene of two aircraft that hit the WTC over and over again. The word “Ground Zero” became a household word on day one, which I found particularly disturbing because “ground zero” typically refers to the location of a nuclear explosion.

Something hit a part of the Pentagon that was being remodeled. For clarification——it was part of the Pentagon that was being remodeled. Whether or not what hit is was in the process of being remodeled does not appear to be on record.

And there is a picture of a big hole in the ground in Pennsylvania.

And the administration blamed it on Bin Laden, who denied it.

It appears that Al Queda (pardon the vernacular) shot its wad on 9/11.

Maybe that’s why Dubya has taken up reading Camus. Most of us probably read “The Stranger” in high school, but I can see how reading about a sociopath who shot an Arab on a beach because someone suggested it, would appeal to him.

I can only wonder if Rove is seriously trying to make Bush appealing to the literate and bookish crowd to help him, or to screw him. It’s hard to tell with these folks.

Honor among thieves, ya know.

Frog thanks for including me in your endorsements. I’d like to believe that I would not abuse power and the powerless in a war-time situation, or any other.  Abuse of power, personal trust, and public trust offends me to no end—-it’s truly shameful.

Posted by wileywitch on Aug 30, 2006 at 9:56 PM

a Popular Mechanics hit piece against the truth movement with Michael Chertoff’s cousin as the fact-checker?

This is a glaring example of your content not matching reality, Wiley.
A more sweeping example is your misunderstanding and subsequent misrepresentation of the responsibilities, capabilities and culpability of NORAD and the FAA.

——————————-vv—————————-

Before you incorporate the arguments put forth by the 9/11 “truth” movement into your daily interactions with friends and family, you may want to fact check them first, and consider them in the context of common sense.  You will be spared possibly permanent embarrassment if you simply run your revelation du jour through the following before opening your mouth at that party, or sending that email to that friend who still assumes you are sane.—- Natalie

9/11 myths
Debunking 911
Peer reviewed papers debunking the “truth” movement.
(using Steven E. Jones’ standard for peer review)  ;-)

16% of people believe in space aliens.  6% believe in bombs and missiles.  (Truthies love polls, especially ones they can misrepresent.)

(most of this 6% don’t have more than a high school education and/or live in trailer parks)  (not that there’s anything wrong with that—I don’t, and I used to!)

Truthies love videos
(warning…graphic images and coarse language)

——————

Not a single institute of Structural, Civil, Fire and Safety or Demolition Engineers on the planet agree with the controlled demolition theory.  Not a single institute of Architects on the planet agree with the controlled demolition theory.  Not a single institute of Engineers in any field on the planet agree with the controlled demolition theory.

Which begs the question— Why do you?

——————

We all know that the select group of incredibly intelligent, talented and brave people, who are capable of designing, building and fighting fires in huge structures such as the World Trade Center Twin Towers, universally agree that a combination of airplane impact damage, heat from fire, and gravity caused their collapse.

However, it should also be noted that another group of highly accomplished people, comprised of those who are capable of safely demolishing such structures, concurs.

Posted by Natalie on Aug 30, 2006 at 11:14 PM

Joe,

Thanks for the link to the NIST Q&A which was no doubt necessitated by an avalanche of emails from those bored by conventional wisdom.

Your link was close, just needed to say factsheets instead of factsheet.  Use copy and paste from your address bar for 100% accuracy.

This is an excellent resource for those unable or unwilling to read the entire NIST report, which is made up of several volumes and is quite massive in its entirety.

I think you somewhat mischaracterize their stance on WTC 7, however, as I suspect their intention is to look into “blast events” in order to gain understanding about the need to change building codes to guard against intentional acts in the future, as was done @ Oklahoma City. 

To say that the report is “insufficient” may be technically correct, but a more accurate description would be to say that it simply isn’t finished yet, although tons of investigation has been done, and a final report is expected in early 2007.

Remember that WTC7 was built using transfer trusses to enable it to be placed over what I would assume to be some pretty huge electrical transformers.  Also, there were numerous sources of diesel fuel in the building, although it probably simply caused fire, and not a sudden blast.

Looking forward to 2007.  (Glad to see that you’re a conservative.  I guess you won’t be having any of that minimum wage raising nonsense, or books by Howard Zinn!! )

14. Why is the NIST investigation of the collapse of WTC 7 (the 47-story office building that collapsed on Sept. 11, 2001, hours after the towers) taking so long to complete? Is a controlled demolition hypothesis being considered to explain the collapse?

This hypothesis may be supported or modified, or new hypotheses may be developed, through the course of the continuing investigation. NIST also is considering whether hypothetical blast events could have played a role in initiating the collapse. While NIST has found no evidence of a blast or controlled demolition event, NIST would like to determine the magnitude of <u>hypothetical</u> blast scenarios that could have led to the structural failure of one or more critical elements.

Posted by Natalie on Aug 31, 2006 at 12:44 AM

Ya know Natalie…you must have grown up on a sod farm , cause slinging manure is right up your alley….not a single structural engineer on this planet….don’t you think that’s a little to over the top…..
Natalie the farm girl…reads the minds of structural engineers…world wide…...

You could be on Jay Leno….......................

Scorpy….it’s interesting that you don’t like Socialism….because all the rich little boogers you love to defend , can’t get enough of the stuff….every little Gov’t program and grant…contract or lop-hole….
The rich love building their wealth , using other peoples money….Now , socialist principles work for the few…why not the many….?
The only problem with the socialist economic structure , is making sure fascist like the scorp are not running the egg cart….

Posted by Redhorse on Aug 31, 2006 at 4:11 AM

Rabbit,

Sorry to take so long. (I couldn

Posted by whattheheck on Aug 31, 2006 at 6:19 AM

I love this poll Natalie,

The poll is the first scientific survey of Americans’ belief in a 9/11 cover up or the need to investigate possible U.S. government complicity, and was commissioned to inform deliberations at the June 2~4 “9/11: Revealing the Truth, Reclaiming our Future” conference in Chicago. Poll results indicate 42% believe there has indeed been a cover up (with 10% unsure) and 45% think “Congress or an International Tribunal should re-investigate the attacks, including whether any US government officials consciously allowed or helped facilitate their success” (with 8% unsure). The poll of American residents was conducted from Friday, May 12 through Tuesday, May 16, 2006. Overall results have a margin of sampling error of +/- 2.9. All inquiries about questions, responses and demographics should be directed to Zogby International.

We need a poll on how many children believe in Santa Claus to find out if children can really be taken seriously. You’re wearing out that ‘16% believe in aliens’ bit Natalie. Maybe you should go powder your nose.

You want to explain to everyone how my “comment” on Popular Mechanics and Chertoff does not “match reality”?  Doesn’t match WHAT “reality”?  I’m very curious about what that little world of “content matching reality” you appear to live in looks like.Is it just a feeling you have—-one of those “if you don’t know I won’t tell you” kind of things? Or is it a land in which reality is only what matches the content you recognize as true and/or convenient?

We all know how many times almost everything you post has been refuted.  Like the NORAD issue—-I posted their mission statement from their website and you dismiss it as “content not matching reality”? All you can really do it attack me, because you don’t know dick about what you’re talking about.

Posted by wileywitch on Aug 31, 2006 at 11:36 AM

The real story of “Depleted” Uranium Munitions in Iraq.

“Depleted Uranium Radioactive Contamination In Iraq - An Overview”, study was conducted by Iraqi doctors and scientists.

Needless to say, Scorp is completely full of shit, (as is Natalie). 

Think about it:  Scorp is arguing in favor of contaminating other people’s lands with radioactive waste.  This contamination will last for billions of years and this is 2006, not 1944.  We KNOW that radiation is not a good thing.  There is no scientific “debate” on that question.  Scorp is a dishonest shill for the pentagon policy of criminal environmental devastation which affects civilians for the indefinite future as well as the US troops they claim to “support,” ad nauseum.

And the Center for Research on Globalisation is a much better source of info than In These Times.

Posted by johndoraemi on Aug 31, 2006 at 11:49 AM

” He seems to show little interest in learning first hand what is going on with the Israeli side.”

I could certainly say that about you, and other American zionist sympathizers.

You have no idea whatsoever WHY Israel attacked Lebanon (for the umpteenth time). You believe whatever propaganda the Israeli government puts out.

The author of The Hidden History of Zionism explains the Israeli strategy (with numerous quotes directly from the “Israeli side.”  MP3 DOWNLOAD

Posted by johndoraemi on Aug 31, 2006 at 12:05 PM

Redhorse sez:

<i>Ya know Natalie…you must have grown up on a sod farm , cause slinging manure is right up your alley….not a single structural engineer on this planet….don

Posted by Natalie on Aug 31, 2006 at 12:48 PM

John,

Still waiting for some documentation of that undamaged tree between the truck blast and the Murrah building.

Posted by Natalie on Aug 31, 2006 at 1:02 PM

You want to explain to everyone how my “comments” on Popular Mechanics and Chertoff does not “match reality”?  Doesn’t match WHAT “reality”?

Isn’t it pretty obvious?  The two Chertoffs are not cousins, or if they are, it’s so distant as to be meaningless.  They’ve never met.  It would be like me claiming that you were cousins to the wicked witch of the west.  It might pique some interest, but it would be inaccurate and ridiculous.

We all know how many times almost everything you post has been refuted.  Like the NORAD issue—-I posted their mission statement from their website and you dismiss it as “content not matching reality”? All you can really do it attack me, because you don’t know dick about what you’re talking about.

The mission statement is real enough, it’s your interpretation of how it applies to the specific events of 9/11 that’s in question.  If I don’t know dick about what I’m talking about, I guess neither does any of the men and women on the 9/11 commission panel:

NORAD Mission and Structure (pg. 16, 9/11 commission report)

<u>We do not believe that the true picture of that morning reflects discredit on the operational personnel at NEADS or FAA facilities</u>. NEADS commanders and officers actively sought out information, and made the best judgments they could on the basis of what they knew. Individual FAA controllers, facility managers, and Command Center managers thought outside the box in recommending a nationwide alert, in ground-stopping local traffic, and, ultimately, in deciding to land all aircraft and executing that unprecedented order flawlessly.

Posted by Natalie on Aug 31, 2006 at 1:37 PM

Natalie….please…now you can read…..the Donald Rumsfeld act is old…..

Posted by Redhorse on Aug 31, 2006 at 2:29 PM

I’m think I’m on to you Redhorse.

You purposefully say weird stuff, the meaning of which is only apparent to you, so nobody knows quite how to respond.

I’ll try.

By “the Rumsfeld act”, you mean misstating the case, or firing inaccurate arrows—I presume.

You would be guilty of performing the “Rumsfeld act”, not me.  You are the one who took my simple statement of fact and assigned your own inaccurate notions and emotions to it.

My arrows are indeed accurate, and the only defense you can think of is to pretend the opposite without any proof.

Posted by Natalie on Aug 31, 2006 at 2:51 PM

Natalie….Having read many of the other posts made on this site…the enormous amount of information..”.evidence “; ” proof ” ...has already been posted…the Wiley one…rabbit…frog…and at times WTH… others.. have done an excellent job….Redhorse would find a point by point rebuttal of your reprocessed rhetorical renditions of Tony Snow -Job or the Rumsfeld Hour… redundant to the extreme… time consuming…and ultimately useless….for poor little Natalie is lost and does not want to be found…...
Now maybe the others really care about saving poor Natty…or they enjoy sharing information for the purposes of enlightment…knowledge…But I have little time or patience for Nata-lie…..Horses do not suffer fools , SUCH AS YOURSELF…....
Look , at this point in the game….Redhorse enjoys watching folks kick your ass up and down this web-site….............period…..

QUESTION…..How do you walk around with that foot hanging out your ASS…? Need a ice pack….A pillow to sit on…...?

Posted by Redhorse on Aug 31, 2006 at 3:55 PM

YO JOE

Your email from ITT gives you all the ‘html code’ on the above.

Similarly will introduce you to another interesting character, Craig Murray .

Back to thread.

My point of view on this whole debate is to follow closely, and try hard to exclude the rubbish.

The truthie movement does have a tendency to endlessly repeat accusations based on flimsy evidence.

One example could be ‘Scott Forbes’ on the Powerdown.  The guy appeared, in one telephone interview, and then disappeared !

Stuff like that, I file away in my mind, as unproven…. perhaps true, but no more.

After Bojinka 1995/ Airfrance Flt8969 1994 attempt on the Eiffel Tower/ heightened air defences G8 meeting in Italy AGAINST suicide-bomb aircraft, it is amazing that this PUBLIC-SOURCE INTEL was not applied to american airspace, too .

Remember that anti-aircraft defences WERE installed in Italy .

Nattyshill would have us believe that nobody imagined that ’” that could happen here”, and that all those salaried people were still fighting the Cold War, and nobody had told them it had finished.

Maybe Norman Mineta’s testimony can be explained away .

Whatever. One thing we do know is that the Admin did not want an Inquiry, waited 411days to start it, named the war-criminal and arch-coverer-up Kissinger to head it, who resigned after 10?days, rathNattyshill would have us believe that nobody imagined that ’” that could happen here”, and that all those salaried people were still fighting the Cold War, and nobody had told them it had finished.

Nattyshill has repeated on numerous occasions ( i’ve known her for a while…. ) that millions and millions of dollars were spent on the Inquiry.

The main budget was $16mn, plus other odds and sods.

Complete and utter chickenshit.

Posted by frog on Aug 31, 2006 at 4:18 PM

“We KNOW that radiation is not a good thing.  There is no scientific “debate” on that question. “

Actually John, there’s a fairly large body of science that concludes that low level radiation is not only not harmful, but beneficial.  Simply type into a search engine:  health benefits of low level radiation

This may be wrong, I’m not sure, a lot of people aren’t sure, but two things are clear to me.  Low level radiation cannot be all that harmful, if it is at all, and there is indeed scientific debate on this question.

Depleted uranium emits extremely low levels of radiation.

Posted by Natalie on Aug 31, 2006 at 4:35 PM

<i>Natalie….Having read many of the other posts made on this site…the enormous amount of information..

Posted by Natalie on Aug 31, 2006 at 4:43 PM

It’s also a heavy metal you twit…and when placed on the tips of bullets, ...gets pulverized upon contact….Breathing in that air is not good….you supercilious twit…........health benefits….ok…

Now practice makes perfect…right…and if you practice stupidity enough…you will perfect your stupidity…correct…so dear Nata-lie…it does appear that you are one perfectly stupid Nat- of -lies…......

Posted by Redhorse on Aug 31, 2006 at 5:02 PM

Well it appears to work for you…ya know…tossing around meaningless crap and such…I would like to mention , in my defense…that the Horse tosses much less meaningless crap than the Natty-one….

Also hay does make for good fertilizer…whereas the Nat-o-lie would be quite useless…what with all that depleted uranium and shit…a kind of metalic stench…....pee-YOU…...you could at least excuse yourself…........no home training….....ugh…...

Posted by Redhorse on Aug 31, 2006 at 5:21 PM

It’s also a heavy metal you twit…and when placed on the tips of bullets, ...gets pulverized upon contact….Breathing in that air is not good….you supercilious twit…........health benefits….ok…

Perhaps it’s not good, but more likely, it’s of little or no consequence.  The few dozens of people actually documented to have inhaled any measurable quantities of the stuff have shown no ill-effects after many years.  Numerous, in depth studies have all concluded that depleted uranium is perhaps not completely harmless, but is far, far from being the demon some people so want it to be.

It wouldn’t surprise me a bit if a (theoretical) large sample of people that regularly inhaled a small quantity of DU turned out to be healthier than a sample of people that did not.

Surely this can’t be any more controversial than being “anti-Zionist”.

Posted by Natalie on Aug 31, 2006 at 5:25 PM

AMAZING….would you be so kind as too inhale some for us….we’re all very interested…...
My father was a machinist for over 35 years…worked with the man in his shop as a youngster….you don’t inhale metalic dust…stupid…...that’s got to be the dumbest thing anybody has ever posted…..period…...
Talk about posting crap…....hey…Natalie , that’s too much….really…maybe you were part of that metal sniffer test…...CRAZY…CRAZY….CRAZY….wild goose chaser….....hahahahaha….............................................just crazy…...

Look bitch…anti-.Zionism , Nazism , KKK , Bushism , Cheneyism, Rumsfeldism , Ricism the Christian Right-Wingism and all the other analretentive ostentatious cripple isms that you got….nothing controversial about that…......

Posted by Redhorse on Aug 31, 2006 at 5:42 PM

But Redhorse,

Wouldn’t the beneficial effects of the radiation erase any harm done by heavy metal poisoning?

This is my theory.

Surely if a theologian can theorize about what made a skyscraper collapse, I can weigh in on matters of radiology and chemistry.

Besides, I’m pro-war, and that makes my viewpoint even more legitimate, right? ........  right?..........

It’s only fair.

Posted by Natalie on Aug 31, 2006 at 8:44 PM

Nata-lie…...You can think any freak’in way that pleases you…...still dumb as hell…...War supporter….....?  You need your head examined…....

Posted by Redhorse on Sep 1, 2006 at 5:14 AM

Dumb as hell, he says.

Ohhhhh….........kay.

Posted by Natalie on Sep 1, 2006 at 10:03 AM

Frog

Crime goes on. Certain subsections of the CIA do just that , and no more.  Other CIA people are squeaky clean, know nothing about it, try to do their patriotic job, then resign early when they realise they are in the minority , out of the loop.

The same is true of Police.  I know a few honest men who were Cops for longer or shorter times but got out when they realised how crooke the whole gig was.

One of them was a Police Superintendant.  He spent more than twenty years working his way higher and higher, with the belief he would one day be able to be promoted above the corruption and from there he thought he would stop it.  He finally resigned when he realised there was no level at which you rose above the corruption.

I know someone whose mother worked in the office of our state’s Police commissioner and through him I know of pedaphilia linked directly to this fellow and the states top policeman of the time (this is our last not present commish), so I am sure the guy who gave up after trying to rise above it was right, there is no level where corruption doesn’t rule.

It occurs to me that it is upon the basis of one’s cynicism as to where one finds oneself at this juncture of history.

I guess those naive babies who believe “the powers” are straight unless proven otherwise are the same ones who have enabled the Bushling Junta to get away with so much.

Those of us who for whatever reason, usually experience, do not trust authority and who have no problem accepting evidence of corruption when it is presented, are the same ones who have woken up to the whole foul sack of lies which encircle this phony War On Terror.

Posted by Rabbit on Sep 1, 2006 at 11:22 AM

WTH

Ray McGovern and his analysis of the Soviet threat?

You really need to advance your perception of my perception WTH, if you are capable.  You are forever oversimplifying what the rabbit percieves.  I don’t know what you are talking about wih regards the “Soviet Threat”.

While I consider that the cold war was largely a put on, it was pumped and primed by the usual suspects, the Military Industrial complex, I have not claimed there was no such thing as a Soviet threat.

Isn’t it time you actually tackled something I have said instead of trying to presume your way forward to what you think I might believe?

You think Jamail is totally sympathetic with the Muslim point of view?

I think that this is the most mind bogglingly stupid thing I’ve read all day!

Are you suggesting that the various reporters from the USA, Israel, or Britain just to name those three, are reporting from a completely neutral standpoint are you?

What you are seeing you silly man, is the reporting from the other side!  Normally you are only geting the American corporate or Zionist viewpoint, and this is why Jamail seems so biased. Since he actually is recognised internationally as an unbiased reporter, your problem with him is coming from being accustomed to the standard zionist fare, which is internationally recognised for it’s bias.

Even if Jamail was biased, it remains that he is just reporting the truth, from the other side.  The beauty about his reporting is that you can check the facts he refers to and find they are accurate. 

You should try doing that with the corporate media and see how far it gets you.

You claim that he doesn’t look at reporting from the Israeli side, and yet you claim you look at news from different sources.  Too dumb to realise you are contradicting yourself.  Dahr is reporting from the other side, and if you are reading different sources then presumably this allows one to balance the input.  As for reporting from the Israeli side, the MSM reporting is doing it’s best to report as biased a story on behalf of Israel as it can, yet the problems with this are obvious.  There isn’t really very much to report from Israel, except a lot of “woe is me” drama.  The Israeli civilian casualties hardly register.  The numbers of Lebanese civilian casualties is often being reported rounded off so that more than three times the Israeli numbers are dropped off the count altogether.

If this was done equally then the Israeli civilian casualties may as well be reported as ZERO.  Of course those 4000 Hisb’Allah missiles hit lots of targets in Israel, but we are not being shown much of this damage because a surprisingly large amount of it is Military targets.

You just need to get past your fantasies of brave Israelis fighting for their lives against overwhelming odds WTH.  The IOF launched a long prepared and pre-ordained assault against their democratic sovereign neighbour after a couple of their troops were captured during one of the IOF’s regular incursions on Lebanese Territory.  A tank which was initially sent to rescue them struck an old Israeli mine left over from their last occupation of Lebanon, and this killed the two scumbags inside.  This is how things are looking now that investigations are being carried out.

By the way, the UN is finding about thirty new sites where Cluster bombs have been used in Lebanon, each day at te moment.  They are investigating Israel’s war crimes.  Over seventy percent of the thousands of such bombs used, were used by Israel in the last hours before the ceasefire. 

The animals dropped more cluster bombs on civilian areas in the last few hours before the ceasefire than in the thirty four days leading up to then.  Can you comprehend how utterly imoral and beastial this is?  Of course you can’t, this is just Israel defending itself to you.

Israel droped over 170,000 bombs and missiles, the least of which was more destructive than any of the missiles Hisb’Allah fired into Israel.  How can a person call that self defense and still call itself a man?  Where do you keep your conscience WTH?  Do you have one or has it been replaced with snappy slogans?

I wish you could see how lowbrow your reasoning looks from here.  No amount of pompous rhetoric can spin those facts, and it is just such undeniable facts which you are dishonestly and implying are being misreported by Dahr Jamail due to bias.  These are the facts, and if there is a bias, it is only that implied by the facts.  There really isn’t any way that another reporter can say it differently.  So the reporters you prefer would just blather some lines about Hisb’Allah terrorists, claim they have fired a hundred missiles against civilian targets, injuring one person and then speak about IAF precision airraids which targetted a Hisb’Allah headquarters and killed lots of terrorists.  That is how they described the Qana Massacre for example, while “biased” reporters like Jamail were writing that it was a civilian building and only women and children were killed.  Your honest Israeli reporters then claimed that rockets were being fired from the building at least.  The “biased ” reporter Jamail pointed out that Hisb’Allah’s rockets cannot be fired from buildings, and that there is NO sign that Hisb’Allah had fired any rockets from Qana at all. 

To this date the Isareli press and the corporate western press has not reported honestly qbout Qana.  The whole story is known, it is verified by the UN, by Amnesty and by the Lebanese auhorities.  Still they try to slip references to Hisb’Allah and rockets firing when it is confirmed that there was no such Hisb’Allah presence. 

WTH, you know absolutely nothing about honest or balanced reporting.

You judge reporting on how much it agrees with what you expect, if it doesn’t then you call it false.

That is so ludicrous since any real news is often going to be unexpected, but it does explain why you are so ill informed.  You just can’t bear to let go of your delusions.  The problem for you is that it is becoming quite untenable for you to maintain them as well as your illusions of righteousness.  Sooner or later you are going to have to accept that nothing you support is anything but the antithesis of all you believe, or you are going to have to put on your Jack boots and Swastika and start goosetepping without any more pretense.

It just so happens that Dahr is a very moderate and balanced reporter, writing largely from a western viewpoint despite your inability to realise it.  Your little bit of a snipe at him, based upon a non-sequiter is of course your usual avoidance of what the points of the article are.  We know why that is don’t we WTH?

You ignore what he wrote, you make some feeble innuendo about him being biased, and then you scuttle away from the whole thing like a bug under the light.  Does that feel like intellectual honesty to you?

Regarding Ray McGovern, you ignore what he says, and instead make up one of your strawmen accusations putting words in my mouth to try and question why I would take him seriously.  I posted his article, expressing my respect for the man’s opinion, what more is there to say?  Do you respect his opinion and if so, do you have anything to say about what he says?

Of course you don’t, you lack the intellectual honesty quite obviously.

Posted by Rabbit on Sep 1, 2006 at 11:46 AM

Beneficial effects of radioactive contamination of land, air, and water supplies? Natalie, I think you’re losing it.  Ya think the Afghanis and Iraqis will start growing huge vegetables like on Gilligan’s Island when those crates of radioactive seeds washed up on their beach?

Or is cancer a good thing now?

You really are starting to hate your job aren’t you?

You keep insisting that words like “defense” and “toxic” and “gravity” are being misinterpreted here. The only way to “misinterpret” such concepts is to be clueless or dishonest.

Posted by wileywitch on Sep 1, 2006 at 12:58 PM

Wew….boy…boy…boy….man…..ok…Now that the Redhorse is finally finished laughing….Natalie….for whatever good it will do , here is a website that might help you with your…..er…....problem…...
The web address is www.ritajking.com . click onto the depleted Uranium link….maybe…just maybe….it will help…....that’s www.r i t a j k i n g.com…...........

Posted by Redhorse on Sep 1, 2006 at 1:19 PM

So, you didn’t mention Chertoff, Wiley.  Any further thoughts?  I guess you can see that if I’m out of my tree on NORAD, then so are all the members of the 9/11 commission.  At least I’m not so lonely now.

I’ve always thought like most of the world that radiation is simply bad for you.  However, it’s not my opinion, but that of at least some in the legitimate scientific community, that the negative effects of radiation are not necessarily on a straight-line scale from zero on up.

There appears to be a low level of radiation, above normal background, that may have a kind of protective effect.  DU would be considered a source of low level radiation. (actually, DU puts out so little radiation, that it probably doesn’t even qualify)

Now of course there are possible problems associated with breathing the “vapors” that would be present in the immediate few feet of a DU explosion, but as far as anyone being exposed to any of these vapors down the road, the concentrations are simply not there.  But even if they were .... it could very well be beneficial.

I don’t offer this as a sure thing by any means, just passing along the fact that there is a debate among scientists, with many convinced that low level radiation is not to be feared, and maybe even revered.  If anything, I think it casts strong doubt on the apocalyptic claims of anti-DU activists.

“In accordance with the current knowledge of radiation health risks, the Health Physics Society recommends against quantitative estimation of health risks below an individual dose of 5 rem1 in one year or a lifetime dose of 10 rem in addition to background radiation. Risk estimation in this dose range should be strictly qualitative accentuating a range of hypothetical health outcomes <u>with an emphasis on the likely possibility of zero adverse health effects.</u> The current philosophy of radiation protection is based on the assumption that any radiation dose, no matter how small, may result in human effects, such as cancer and hereditary genetic damage. There is substantial and convincing scientific evidence for health risks at high dose. <u>Below 10 rem (which includes occupational and environmental exposures) risks of health effects are either too small to be observed or are non-existent.</u>”

The Linear No Threshold Hypothesis (LNTH) is the current basis for regulation of low levels of radiation in the United States. Under this hypothesis, the effects of low-level radiation are assumed to be deleterious. This hypothesis presumes that detrimental health effects are linearly proportional to radiation dose down to zero dose. It assumes that any exposure, no matter how small, increases detrimental health effects. A corollary to the LNTH is the collective-dose theory, which assumes that small doses to large populations can be added up to predict a large number of statistical health effects.

<u>Scientists and researchers, as described in the following paragraphs, are increasingly questioning the validity of the LNTH and the collective dose theory and their application in the regulation of the potential health effects of low-level radiation.</u> If the LNTH is not valid, significant benefits can accrue to society by developing a valid science-based standard for assuring public health. These benefits include an increased public confidence in medical, industrial, food safety, and energy applications of nuclear science and technology and may include reduced societal costs in regulating and controlling radioactive material.

Source

Posted by Natalie on Sep 1, 2006 at 2:00 PM

Natalie, why don’t you show us the evidence that the two Chertoff’s are unrelated, and this is just another one of the incredibly long streams of “coincidences” that will be the hallmark of this lying sack of shit called “the Bush Administration”.

But first, tell me how you can prove that they are unrelated and have never met? This proving negatives is all the new rage isn’t it? And to think it was thought for so long to be impossible. You are brilliant Natalie—-such a rare genius that I have to wonder why you’re slumming it with all us tin foil types. Have you bought a lot of stock in tin?

Nevertheless, going back to school and marrying up may be the best career move you’ll ever make.

Posted by wileywitch on Sep 1, 2006 at 3:21 PM

This might be a fine opportunity for you to do some research on your own, Wiley, and maybe you’ll discover how easy it is for somebody to invent something and for people to accept it as fact, uncritically.

Perhaps you might realize that many of the other things you’ve come to believe that have been presented by the online “alternative explanations” club are also not grounded in fact or reality.

——————————-vv—————————-

Before you incorporate the arguments put forth by the 9/11 “truth” movement into your daily interactions with friends and family, you may want to fact check them first, and consider them in the context of common sense.  You will be spared possibly permanent embarrassment if you simply run your revelation du jour through the following before opening your mouth at that party, or sending that email to that friend who still assumes you are sane.—- Natalie

9/11 myths
Debunking 911
Peer reviewed papers debunking the “truth” movement.
(using Steven E. Jones’ standard for peer review)  ;-)

16% of people believe in space aliens.  6% believe in bombs and missiles.  (Truthies love polls, especially ones they can mis-represent.)

(most of this 6% don’t have more than a high school education and/or live in trailer parks)  (not that there’s anything wrong with that—I don’t, and I used to!)

Truthies love videos
(warning…graphic images and coarse language)

——————

Not a single institute of Structural, Civil, Fire and Safety or Demolition Engineers on the planet agree with the controlled demolition theory.  Not a single institute of Architects on the planet agree with the controlled demolition theory.  Not a single institute of Engineers in any field on the planet agree with the controlled demolition theory.

Which begs the question— Why do you?

——————

We all know that the select group of incredibly intelligent, talented and brave people, who are capable of designing, building and fighting fires in huge structures such as the World Trade Center Twin Towers, universally agree that a combination of airplane impact damage, heat from fire, and gravity caused their collapse.

However, it should also be noted that another group of highly accomplished people, comprised of those who are capable of safely demolishing such structures, concurs.

A condensed and fully customized “NIST Report for Truthies” is now available for truthies that only have trailer court laundry “deposit a quarter for three minutes” dial-up Internet access.

Please!  Try my product!  Don’t trust cheap imitations.

Posted by Natalie on Sep 1, 2006 at 5:21 PM

Natalie

I am very disapointed with you Natalie because you would LIE and spread such filth so openly. Rather then try to debate on honest grounds you have to LIE. I have given you the benefit of the doubt when it was hard to justify my doing so. But your post in respose to my update on NIST now ” considering wether hypothetical blast events could have played a role in initiating the collapse” is more then missleading but a LIE.
They are talking about building # 7 and they make that clear. So please tell me. How I am mischaracterizing What NIST said? I was trying to be nice and that is why I never pushed you into a corner to respond to my points I brought up regarding 9/11. All of them (and I have much, much, much, more) have been ignored by 9/11 Myths, Debunking 911, Screw Loose Change, and the Neo con bootlicking 101st fighting keyboardists or they just state its simply just a minor coincidence as if there are only a few when there are hundreds. All of my research goes through them. So Natalie are you sugesting that the two Chertoff’s are not related? Are you that uninformed or are you just acting. If you are not saying that please forgive that last sentance. But I stand by what I said about NIST and the quote I posted from them. I must say I cant see how you can say you carelessly made a mistake like that. I do not belive it was a mistake at all. Shame on you!

Posted by honestjoe on Sep 1, 2006 at 7:05 PM

Honest Joe,  it never stops. I think I understand why zombies movies are so popular now.

Brain. Brain. Brain. They really want a brain and are dying to get one.

Wakka, wakka, wakka.

I have told her repeatedly that radar blips do not “disappear” when a plane turns off it’s transponder. If that were the case, we would have been totally defenseless against enemy aircraft since the dawn of the what the hell did they invent it and use if for if it was worthless without a friendly transponder radar?

I mean, how smart do you have to be to get this? 

I could have interviewed six year olds at the zoo who could have explained how bats identify things by bouncing signals off them. And if I explained transponders to some twelve year olds, and then asked them if they thought bats could see things that weren’t equipped with transponders,  a lot of kids would have the smarts to ask in the proper you’ve got to be kidding me tone—-“How many things have transponders and how many dead bats do you see laying around, lady? Duh!”

Fighter planes in more primitive conditions than NORAD and the FAA have scrambled on dust storms and flocks of birds, but we’re supposed to believe that no one could see the blips because the transponders were turned off.

The transponders being turned off was clue number one and it should have set off alarms. A blip without a transponder identifying the blip is as good as a bogey.

Good grief.

Next comes the aria for the FAA and NORAD. Those poor, poor souls who couldn’t do their jobs because they couldn’t imagine planes being used as weapons, as if their jobs had a fucking thing to do with whether or not they could imagine airliners being used as weapons. The aircraft were unidentified and off course. They weren’t responding to voice transmissions. All the FAA had to do was report that to NORAD and keep them updated. NORAD could have probably gotten a satellite to read notes the “hijackers” were passing back and forth, in a matter of minutes. One of these planes flew around for forty minutes! Whether or not the attacks could have been stopped is a separate issue. Our air defense system claims to have been in a tizzy the whole time.  The system failed miserably and no one has been taken to task for it. Why not?

Inexcusable.

Posted by wileywitch on Sep 1, 2006 at 8:51 PM

Joe,

What exactly did I LIE about?  Filth?  You stated in your post:

Nist admits that the investigation into the collapse of world trade center 7 has been insufficent and they are now “considering wether hypothetical blast points could have played a role in initiating the collapse”.

Well it took them how long? I guess they started to panic when they found out they can be charged with the cover up and the aiding and abeding of the criminal eliment within the goverment that did this.

I was being nice also.  This is completely misrepresentative of NIST’s stance on the status of their report so far—it’s not “insufficient”, it’s incomplete.  Have you read their preliminary report?  It’s pretty darn comprehensive for a preliminary report.  I believe I linked you to it earlier.  You imply that they are actually considering the possibility of deliberately placed explosives when they clearly state they have no evidence of such.  The more logical interpretation is that they are seeking knowledge about such possibilities for recommendations of future building codes.  They did this with the twin towers, and also after studying the effects of an actual deliberate blast at Oklahoma City.

I actually took the time to reproduce the complete quote by NIST about the question of blast events, fixed your defective link and explained to you what the problem was with it.  And you accuse ME of being somehow less than up front?

Your second paragraph makes clear that you think they are somehow changing their investigative procedures, and are scared due to rhetoric   from the likes of you.  There is no evidence of this.  This is pure wishful thinking.  “Cover-up”?  “Criminal element”?  Are you really searching for the truth here Joe, or is your mind already made up?  It would certainly appear the latter.

You say you’ve cleared everything through 9/11 myths, and the others, and you still think that the Chertoffs are anything other than possibly distant cousins? 

Are you honest, Joe, or are you simply not very thorough?

Posted by Natalie on Sep 1, 2006 at 11:44 PM

Wiley,

Are you aware that Clinton cut military peresonnel by one-third? Is it possible that, as with civilian cuts, the most experience were the first to go? I watched this with nearly all of my manufacturing clients over the 1990s. Instead of dealing with people who had graphics experience I ended up trying to explain things to a purchasing agent.

Take a look at what has happened to our telephone service

Posted by whattheheck on Sep 2, 2006 at 6:18 AM

For Wiley, history started Jan. 2001.  For the rest of us that have TV, an excellent opportunity to learn just how untrue this is in regard to 9/11 is hopefully soon upcoming.  (I say hopefully because apparently former President Clinton is attempting to play network censor)

The Path to 9/11 will be airing next Sun., Sept 10, and Mon., the 11th., unless Clinton’s calls to ABC somehow result in it being cancelled or edited to his liking.

My intention is not to “blame” Clinton and his administration for 9/11, or to deflect blame from Bush.  Clinton did many things to improve counter-terrorism, and it looks like the incoming administration didn’t take it as seriously as they should have. 

However, it’s important not to look at 9/11 through a narrow eight month window, which is how it’s been largely portrayed in the media.    There’s so much more to consider, especially in order to improve our ability to prevent similar catastrophes.  This mini-series provides some much needed balance, and hopefully, it will air as planned.

Posted by Natalie on Sep 2, 2006 at 10:31 AM

WTH, so what?  Military personnel means squat. The United States military bombs. In missile warning 78-80 we needed three people on scope at a time in my unit to watch the Western Hemisphere.

FAA and NORAD should clearly be the last to be cut, and I seriously doubt that Clinton made cuts in Air Defense. I seriously doubt that Clinton could have stood up to a lobby if the Pentagon really wanted to beef up domestic air defense. The Cold War did not end air traffic. The Cold War didn’t even change our nuclear forces that much. We’ve still got missiles trained on Russia on hair trigger alert, with the silos armed and loaded, and staffed. The only difference is that we target China and North Korea, now, too.

I agree that our government has been working for the military industrial complex for a long time and buying “Winchesters”.

I agree that deregulation has gone too far, and it started with Reagan.

I agree that the president and Rumsfeld should BUY A DICTIONARY and look up the word DEFENSE.

But Clinton didn’t benefit from 9/11. Clinton said nothing about “hitting the trifecta”. 

If Bush can’t take responsibility for what happens on his watch, then he’s not adult and honorable enough to be president. And furthermore, he has cut funds for first responders, and has been wasting time and money tapping phones.

Could you imagine a serial killer being on the loose in your town—-everyone terrified—-and the police assuring everyone that they’ll catch the killer by tapping their phones and collecting data on everyone?

Get outta here with this enabling chit. You’re defending Bush the way the abused defend their alcoholic parents or spouses. It is sad to watch. It is sad that you don’t feel gypped by this president and that you don’t see him as a public servant—-paid by us taxpayers——who should serve US and not himself and his crony pals.

Having low expectations for your leaders, does not make for a really good citizen.

Posted by wileywitch on Sep 2, 2006 at 10:40 AM

Biley Bitch -

Since the early days of the Bush Administration, it has been a principal theme and meme of unprincipled leftists that George Bush is a liar.  The idea is so absurd, it does not bear acknowledgement, much less repeating. 

The main factoid cited in nonjustification for this slander is the WMD in Iraq, and more particularly the “sixteen words” from the 2003 SoU Address,

Posted by scorp on Sep 2, 2006 at 4:32 PM

Natalie
This is one of those times I have to try hard to practice what I preach and not let myself get to angry. I wrote my response to you early this morning when I got up and it just vanished. Im sure it was something I did because I was in a hurry to post it before I had to leave. So I hope this one posts or Im probly going to be a hypercrit and let myself get angry. I need to remember deep breaths.

I seem to remember Chertoff claiming there was no relationship but now is at least admiting they are related but distant and I think that would have never happend but for the wife and mom’s statement and that was taken by more than one reporter or we wouldnt have gotten any kind of change or fix to the LIE. You have to squeese hard to get a drop of truth from them.

Writing of changes or fixs to LIES. What do you think about all the times 9/11 myths has been exposed for LIES that he (mike) would write and after enough harrassment he had no choice but to change or fix those LIES.
I have to admit that if I hadn’t researched so much about 9/11 I would have thought that Mike was correct on many things. The reson why is because he is as sneaky as a snake in the grass. If you have done enough research on 9/11 you can see how he is always leaving out the key information that would destroy his attempts at placing a shadow on the light of truth about 9/11. 9/11 myths, and Debunking 911 use the same strawman arguments, misdirection, and old info. It is the stawman arguments that they always prove to be false.

So yes Natlie I do make sure Im thorough when doing my research through 9/11 myths and ect.. As a matter of fact it was through those sites that I finally became convinced that 9/11 was a false flag op. Rabbit lead me to some very informative sites but even with all the evidence it was still to difficult to except that this or any goverment could do this to there people. Until you pointed 9/11 myths and Debunking 911 to me then after many hours of research and followups from those sites I became covinced of the truth about 9/11 being an inside job.

Some examples of there misdirection, Why doesn’t Mike mention the fact that three of the patsies listed their address on their drivers licenses and car regestrations as the Navel air station in Pensacola? What about the incorrectly acused men who saw there names and photos on TV and then went to the American embassy in Saudi Arabia to have their names and PHOTOS removed from the FBI most wanted? What about this one I’ll even pretend Mike is right and except that it is only 1 out of 3 million chance that some of the drills being done were in pereperation for the exact same kind of attack and that they were at the same time and on the same day, Ok? BIG RED FLAG DUH!!! But 9/11myths says nothing to be alarmed about.

Yes Natalie I think NIST is somehow changing there investigative procedures and I think it is not only because they say they are but because they have no choice do to the fact that they are backed into a corner by the fact that they still after all this time (dont you dare act like it hasn’t been long) cant explain why building #7 collapsed.
NIST has tried to explain the collapse with every explanation possible but the most simple. then you tell me that they see no evidence of controled demolition. What a joke. Just watch it should be enough but I would agree they should do some tests dont you? Well they didnt so how are they suposed to see any signs if they wont look?
Thats what so many people are upset about. That is why they are backed into a corner because it is a huge mistake at the very least that they never even considerd until now that explosives have been used even though building #7 showed clasic signs of a controled demolition.

Natalie how can they see any signs of a controled demolition if they never looked for them? Why didnt they look for them even when asked to do so by so many? Let me guess Natalie its just anothere simple coincidence that the only working model of building #7 is with the use of explosives.?.

Posted by honestjoe on Sep 2, 2006 at 7:11 PM

Natalie

Let me guess its just a simple coincidence that the only working model of building #7 is with the use of explosives and it is just a small coincidence that building #7 showed the clasic signs of a controled demolition.

The sad thing is that what I said about NIST you try to explain away with filth by saying you feel there intentions are simply to look into the need to change building codes as if it has nothing to do with the fact they still have not explained after all this time why building #7 collapsed.
They have been hounded by patriotic people to do there job and look into ALL posible explanations into building #7 and not everything BUT expolsives. Please, what a joke. Next you will try to tell us the radiation from DU is good for us. Oh, Im sorry you already have. Im sure you cant wait to get some DU for your family and reep the rewards of radiation.

Natalie you have shown your self to have enough intellect to not belive the filth you are trying to use to explain away NIST now considering wether hypothetical blast events have played a role in initiating the collapse of building #7. I belive it is not your interpritation for there is no way you can reach the idea that it has nothing to do with the collapse. how can you try and say its to change building codes for some future event not related to building #7 because it was not brought down by explosives? DOUBLETHINK!?!  Again how would NIST know it was not brought down by explosives when they have never conciderd or tested the idea?

Around and around we go. But I must say again that I do not think even you belive that filth so therefore I can only take it for what it is wich is a LIE.

Posted by honestjoe on Sep 2, 2006 at 7:47 PM

Scorpy-shit, go blow yourself .

I have a life that is far too rich to be wasted reading your trash. Natalie at least has some entertainment value. You are just a frustrated troll. Crawl back into the hole from which you crawl.

Your side will lose, and you will be sorry to be on it. Promise.

Posted by wileywitch on Sep 2, 2006 at 8:13 PM

Biley Bitch -

  ... go blow yourself.

Well, that is certainly eloquent and persuasive.

But think of the implications of what you are saying.  We have had a three year effort, costing millions of dollars, perpetrated by the very highest levels of leftists within the CIA and the State Department, with the backing of prominent left-wind journalists, to commit fraud against the elected administration:

Nevertheless, it now appears that the person most responsible for the end of Ms. Plame’s CIA career is Mr. Wilson. Mr. Wilson chose to go public with an explosive charge, claiming—falsely, as it turned out—that he had debunked reports of Iraqi uranium-shopping in Niger and that his report had circulated to senior administration officials. He ought to have expected that both those officials and journalists such as Mr. Novak would ask why a retired ambassador would have been sent on such a mission and that the answer would point to his wife. He diverted responsibility from himself and his false charges by claiming that President Bush’s closest aides had engaged in an illegal conspiracy. It’s unfortunate that so many people took him (Wilson) seriously.  - Washington Post

I suppose we have to acknowledge that the Washington Post has come clean after all this time, since they were prominent in repeating the fraudulent claims.  No word from the NYT.

And all these prominent leftists are revealed as lying to and about the elected administration. 

No serious person ever thought that George Bush ever lied about anything.  The people who claimed that, “Bush lied” are revealed as frauds.  Do you think the voters will be glad to have been lied to?

Your side will lose, and you will be sorry to be on it. Promise.

My side is the United States of America.  I can’t figure out whose side you are on, but dishonesty is not an American virtue.  Maybe you belong with Frog in France.  Russia seems to be your style.  The mullahs are noted liars, perhaps you would be comfortable with them. 

Every time the electortate becomes sufficiently dissatisfied, for whatever reason, they elect a Dimocrat President.  The result is ALWAYS tax increases, followed by economic disruption and recession.  At which time the electorate comes back to its senses and re-elects a Republican. 

President Bush is determined that the terrorist threat will be substantially reduced before he leaves office.  He certainly does not want to leave a bunch of energized terrorists behind, like Clinton did.  The mullahs are cooperating in their own destruction.  So I expect the terrorists will be wiped in the next two years, and, depending, the electorate may go with a Dimocrat in 2008, like Great Britain rejected Churchill after WWII.  If that happens, the Dims will have a short time to enjoy their offices before we throw their dumb asses out again. 

On the other hand, the economy was doing superficially well at the end of the Clinton Administration, but there were storm clouds gathering.  The NASDAQ fell from over 5000 to under 2000 in Clinton’s last year, the Dow peaked and started down, and GDP was wavering after strong growth.  Gore should have won easily, but did not.  President Bush’s election in 2000 was a mark of growing economic and political sophistication in the American electorate, confirmed by the increase Republican margin in 2004.  So maybe we will have an end to lying leftists in our country.  Hasten the day.

Posted by scorp on Sep 2, 2006 at 10:02 PM

Hear that scorp, you’ve got to be more entertaining.  It’s simply not enough to be coherent, precise, sensible and truthful; you gotta be entertaining too. 

I actually thought the drama of having 19 brainwashed bigoted barbarian bastards with non-the-less the cunning to exploit our free and trusting society to their advantage, successfully attacking and killing 3000 of us on 9/11, was pretty darn riveting.

But it’s not enough for these folks.  They insist on the added ingredient of our own Government having had a hand in it.  They demand this be part of the story line, or I guess it’s just too boring.

I don’t know what it is, exactly.  Maybe too much Art Bell late at night.

Maybe too much reefer.  (not that there’s anything wrong with that!)

West of the Rockies, you’re on the wild card line.  Yes Art, I’d like to discuss the Illuminati, and how they basically control the world.  Ah, yes, caller, another fascination of mine too.  Please go on, but I must warn you….if you start to bore our audience, I’ll be forced to cut you off.

Posted by Natalie on Sep 3, 2006 at 3:24 AM

Rabid says,

Posted by whattheheck on Sep 3, 2006 at 9:03 AM

Slave Scorp

” I belive in both spirit and substance our tax system has come to be unAmerican. Death and taxes may be inevitible but unjust taxes are not.—Ronald Reagan May 28, 1985

The fist thing Reagan did when elected was apoint a panel headed by Peter Grace to look into the federal tax system. Here is a quote from the grace comission. ” 100% of what is collected is absorbed solely by intrest on the federal debt. All individual income tax revenues are gone before one nickel is spent on the services tax payers expect from the goverment.”

The american people have been told that there income tax is needed or goes to fund our goverment and that is a LIE. The real reson behind the income tax is not to raise revenue but to redistrbute wealth and to control society.

So the American people took the fedreal goverment to court demanding to be shown the law that says we have to pay income tax. On Augest 31, 2005 federal judge Emmet Sullivan ruled the goverment does not have to answere the American peoples question, even though it is garanteed in the first Amendment.

Our courts decided that the goverment does not have to show the law that it inforces and not a peep from the American media. Are you ok with giving someone the athority to overrule the constitution? Well slave are you?

” none are more hopelessly inslaved than those who falsely belive they are free. ”—Goethe

Posted by honestjoe on Sep 3, 2006 at 9:37 AM

Lagomorph -

I surrender.  This website has convinced me of the impeccable logic of your position.  I cannot understand why it took me so long to see the obvious.

http://no-pasaran.blogspot.com/2006/08/redefining-truth-to-mean-anything.html

Posted by scorp on Sep 3, 2006 at 10:07 AM

Joe -

So the American people (!) took the fedreal (sic) goverment (sic) to court demanding to be shown the law that says we have to pay income tax. On Augest (sic) 31, 2005 federal judge Emmet Sullivan ruled the goverment (sic) does not have to answere (sic) the American peoples (sic) question, even though it is garanteed (sic) in the first Amendment.

Sic, sic, sic!  Pretty sic, Joe.  Your spelling is atrocious, and your logic is worse.  You will have to write something that makes sense if you expect an answer.

Posted by scorp on Sep 3, 2006 at 10:36 AM

Slave Scorp

You call yourself a republican, so what are the ideals of a republican to you?

The reson I do not want the American people to pay income tax is not just because it is not the law but also because the income tax is the instrament of totalatarianism and is the means the goverment uses to manipulate the American people to be conditiond for serveatude.

You dont care about Signing statements, Globelization, Free Trade, Federal Reserve, International Monetary Fund, International Corporations and the Banks, the New World Order and PNAC?

Well if you dont look its not there right? Isnt that what NIST tried?

BY the way SLAVE show me the law that says we have to pay income tax.

P.S Even if I correct the spelling it still says the same thing and that is just to much for you to grasp.

Posted by honestjoe on Sep 3, 2006 at 11:13 AM

Slave Scorp

What is so hard to grasp? That the American people can serve a class action lawsuite on the goverment? Thats what Im talking about is the goverment being served a complaint by the American people. Are you just shocked that you didnt get all the details from your TV?

Does this make sense? The American people (those who are informed) said were not going to let the goverment violate our rights any more. We the people have rights and demand some answers. I dont see what you are confused about? I put it as simply as I can. What do you not get?

Posted by honestjoe on Sep 3, 2006 at 12:00 PM

Funny that someone who opens with “bileybitch” is niggly about form. 

I will soon be too busy for this little diversion. Everytime I hear an American wondering why they ever fell for it, I’ll think of you—- Natalie, and you—- Scorp. I will celebrate the fall of the Vulcans and blow out two candles just for you. May not be this year. May not be next year. But they will fall, and fall hard. And everybody you know will know where you stood. And you still won’t get it.

Every time I walk into the Agricultural Sciences building I’ll be reminded of you. Smells like cattle.

Posted by wileywitch on Sep 3, 2006 at 12:34 PM

Joe,

Regarding Chertoff:

The story about M. being cousins to B. was invented by the same man who conjured up this journalistic masterpiece of a paragraph:

<u>No evidence has been produced to support the theory that the burning jet fuel and secondary fires “attacking the questionably fireproofed lightweight trusses and load-bearing columns directly caused the collapses,</u>” Manning wrote, adding that the collapses occurred “in an alarmingly short time.”

From the actual words of his subject thus:

“However, respected members of the fire protection engineering community are beginning to raise red flags, and a resonating theory has emerged: The structural damage from the planes and the explosive ignition of jet fuel in themselves were not enough to bring down the towers. <u>Rather, theory has it, the subsequent contents fires attacking the questionably fireproofed lightweight trusses and load-bearing columns directly caused the collapses in an alarmingly short time.</u> Of course, in light of there being no real evidence thus far produced, this could remain just unexplored theory.”

Note the clever use of quote marks, which I guess technically avoids a charge of misquoting.  But the effort to mislead is blatant and obvious.  I’m sure if you showed 100 people who had no knowledge of the story the first paragraph, they would all tell you that someone named Manning thinks that something OTHER THAN “burning jet fuel and secondary fires” brought down the towers.  But upon reading the actual words of Manning, it is explicitly clear that he indeed DOES suspect that the secondary fires acting on questionably fireproofed trusses are what brought the towers down.

Of course the “journalist” in question is Chris Bollyn.  <u>He writes for a holocaust denial/revisionist publication</u>, “American Free Press”. 

That he would write for such a publication in itself should be enough to clue one into the degree of honesty that is to be expected.  As a fan of Ronald Reagan, one of the best friends that Israel ever had, I hope you agree.

Much of what you read in the “truth” community is based on the work of Bollyn, and many other “anti-Zionist” sources.  Keep this in mind when gauging whether to believe something.

Posted by Natalie on Sep 3, 2006 at 12:45 PM

“I will soon be too busy for this little diversion”

Translation:

My positions about 9/11 and NORAD have been exposed as weak and fanciful, and it’s too much work to continue to support them without reality as a helper.  Therefore, I will make my exit with one last little smokescreen, and when it clears, I’ll be safely gone.

Wiley, just a suggestion.  Take your suspicions about the towers down to the structural engineering dept., and see what they have to say.  Perhaps some face to face time will help.

Posted by Natalie on Sep 3, 2006 at 12:53 PM

Natalie

If you look you will see I said two reporters. I am aware of what you would use to discredit Chris Bollyn so I made sure to mention the other sorce wich I know will also get your blood to boil. The other also has a radio station and has openly asked for anyone from Popular Machanics or Chertoff to debate him and that is Alex Jones who also called to confirm Chris Bollyn. Now Alex has everything to lose and nothing to gain by stating he also called when he is trying to debate them any place any time the sooner the better on air. Wich he has through other shows and tore the PM spokesman up.

Posted by honestjoe on Sep 3, 2006 at 1:08 PM

Natalie

I have to say that I agree with you on being a fan of Reagan. That Does not mean I agree with everything he or his administration did but there has not been any one since that even comes close to comparing to him.
You should look at the connections to his being shot and some of the things and people that are going on today and how my previous posts are related. Reagan was a brave man who tried to help with what limited power he had compared to the real powers that run this country and through it and the banks the world. The truth will set you free.

P.S Thank you for fixing my link and leting me know what was missing.

Posted by honestjoe on Sep 3, 2006 at 2:27 PM

Great, Joe,  we have something in common.  We both admire Reagan.  Do you agree with his general attitude toward Israel?

And, regarding Chertoff, even if the two were close cousins, what relevance would this have to the facts at hand, especially given the fact that M. Chertoff didn’t even become homeland security head until after the PM piece had gone to press?  Shouldn’t the facts (and their accuracy and reliability) presented by PM be the focus of any kind of criticism? 

And why would you put any kind of faith in Alex Jones, who has made thousands of bizarre, ridiculous claims through the years, and who is a blantant marketer for profit of such?  Come on, he used to be all over the angle that muslim extremists were involved in Oklahoma City, and now he’s suddenly jumped aboard the bandwagon that says they’re somehow not involved in 9/11? (or maybe they’re patsies, or maybe not, or whatever sells)

Posted by Natalie on Sep 3, 2006 at 3:16 PM

No, Natalie, that means I’ll be starting on my Bachelor’s of Science in Horticulture and will have absolutely no excuse to waste my time with dead-ender shills.

I’ll say “ciao”, now, since I have far more interesting things to do (like picking my teeth)  than watching Nat and Scorp reruns, and I wasn’t gullible enough to fall for the ‘official’ “story” in the first place.

Keep the bar low for standards of government and helping people make excuses for the status quo. You need practice. I don’t remember seeing either of you make any conversions here.

Toodles. 

“Yeah, when they built that tower of babble, they knew what they were after—-they knew what they were after”.——Patti Smith

Posted by wileywitch on Sep 3, 2006 at 5:28 PM

Biley Bitch -

“You can lead a horticulture but you can’t make her think.”

Dorothy Parker

AMF.

Posted by scorp on Sep 3, 2006 at 6:08 PM