Only a year ago, the United States seemed likely to be the main victim of its own bursting housing bubble and financial crisis. Now the American collapse has deepened—and spread worldwide. Economic activity is shrinking in nearly every country, with Japan facing the steepest drop among the Group of Seven rich countries. Even in red-hot China, unemployment has become a major… return to article
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Reader Comments (38)Page 1 of 1 pagesAre you serious?
Let me see if I understand you correctly. In your Green Keynesian scenario:
- The governments of the world will put aside their own national interests and unite (we see how well that works on a daily basis at the UN) in a common economic purpose.
- These governments will pump tens of trillians of dollars into green energy projects.
- Because of this noble experiment, the economy will rebound magically as Al Gore channels the spirit of Keynes, capitalism will be overturned, and we will all sing around a campfire.
Here is what will happen if we do this:
- Capitalism, which has lifted more people out of poverty than any other system in the history of mankind will be replaced by corrupt statism. As we can see with the current bailout mess, the line to ride the gravy train will be long, and countless billions will be squandarded in corruption.
- Green energy, which I personally support, is not to the technical point where it is as efficient or more efficient than current sources. Unless you can overturn the laws of physics, it will not be in any reasonable period of time.
- To pay for this merry adventure, we have three choices. Tax everyone to the hilt (least likely), borrow more (fewer people will buy our bonds as we become more a deadbeat nation), or start the printing presses. In any case, inflation will go through the roof.
- Within the next decade, we will be tapped out, and when the government / green bubble bursts (as all do when you pump trillions into one), nothing will be there to arrest its fall.
That’s when the next Depression starts. Bush started the process by 8 years of insane spending, Obama will not be upstaged, and there it is…
In summary, you’re nuts. Go back to academia.
Posted by Paul Thiel on Apr 17, 2009 at 11:08 AM Listing of 67 stimulus countries with comments and thoughts updated at: http://sites.google.com/site/maar258
Posted by marc arenstein on Apr 17, 2009 at 2:41 PM Paul -
I appreciate your philosophy, but you need to re-evaluate your take on who spent what:
That’s when the next Depression starts. Bush started the process by 8 years of insane spending, Obama will not be upstaged, and there it is…
You have to go back a bit to get the full story. The Democrats regularly complain that President Reagan increased the national debt, but as always, the Democrats are lying. According to the Washington Post, LBJ’s War on Poverty cost $6.6 trillion over a thirty year period; that is an average of $220 billion per year. Do the math and you will discover that the national debt did not increase at all under President Reagan, except for the mandated money for the Democrats’ War on Poverty. Since the president is in charge of enforcing the law, and WoP was the law, Reagan had to spend that money, no matter how foolish, wasteful, and corrupt the WoP was. Even President Clinton, who understood little, could understand that you do not waste $6.6 trillion of the peoples’ money on fraud and corruption.
So, even allowing for three years of War on Poverty expenditures during the Clinton Administration, Clinton’s cumulative budget deficits were considerable, even with the “surpluses” of the late 1990s.
But wait! The so-called Clinton surpluses were the result of the NASDAQ dot.com bubble. Economic bubbles have a net destructive effect, and sure enough, the value of the NASDAQ fell by $2-1/2 trillion, half it’s total value, BEFORE Clinton left office. The DOW also peaked and started down while Clinton was still president.
And that brings us to President Bush’s “insane spending”. The Bubba Bubble produced a recession and recessions cost money: unemployment comp, welfare, stimulus, job programs, etc. President Bush had to pay this, just like President Reagan had to pay for the Democrats War on Poverty. But President Bush took all the proper actions; the Bubba Recession was quite mild as recessions go, and a spectacular recovery followed. The national debt/GDP ratio during the middle years of the Bush Administration actually declined. But the final years of the Bush Administration were marred by the mortgage fiasco, another corrupt, wasteful program brought to you by the Democrats. But where Clinton was smart enough to end the waste and fraud of the War on Poverty, Obama has doubled, down, tripled down, quadrupled down on the mortgage waste and fraud. This is going to be the damndest disaster you ever saw.
Enjoy.
Posted by scorp on Apr 17, 2009 at 3:01 PM Scorp,
I agree with your comments. The reason I didn’t go back any further is that I wanted to be “balanced” and not seen as a right-wing kook. In reality, both parties have been making this mess for a long, long, long time. A pox on both their houses.
The real cure to this is to shrink the size of the government. A smaller government gives us more liberty and is less prone to corruption (there is less to corrupt).
I’ve seen this mess coming for a few years now and doubled-down on my mortgage payments. Last December (after working between 2-5 jobs for several years), I paid it off. I refuse to be a debt slave. Too bad our government will never emulate my example.
Paul
Posted by Paul Thiel on Apr 17, 2009 at 3:55 PM Don’t build your house on a foundation of sand, and don’t write your article based on Democratic Party prevarication points.
Moberg’s first paragraph:
Only a year ago, the United States seemed likely to be the main victim of its own bursting housing bubble and financial crisis. Now the American collapse has deepened—and spread worldwide.
Well, no, that is not what happened at all.
In the first place, one year ago the markets were down only slightly in the USA, less than 10%, but much more among our major trading partners. You might argue that the economic downturn spread to the USA from the rest of the world (that would be incorrect, but arguable), but you sure as hell can’t argue that they caught the bug from us, since they had the bug first. Russia, in fact, was among the first to fall when they invaded Georgia, thus causing major panic among investors and ex-communist plutocrats, who promptly sent their billions to safe haven in the USA.
The housing market had not “burst” in April 2008; Democrats, led by Frank and Dodd, insisted that everything was cool in the mortgage market, and they continued the same refrain until October when the banks stated failing from bad mortgages.
Then every time Obama moved closer too the presidency, the markets fell further. Obama stole the state nominations from Hillary, the markets fell. In October, it was obvious that Obama would be the nominee, and the markets fell. Following the election, the markets fell. The markets dropped 400 points the day after the inauguration.
Second, the model of capitalism that dominates the global economy is failing and must be radically reformed.
Oh, bullshit. There is absolutely nothing wrong with free-market, rule-of-law American economics. In early 2007, the national debt crossed the $9 trillion mark. $6.6 trillion of that was due to LBJ’s direct, wasted, corrupt, Marxist War on Poverty. If we could just persuade the Democrats to stop wasting the peoples’ money on Marxist nonsense and corruption, life would be ever so much better. But now Obama and the Democrats are dedicating even more trillions of dollars to Marxist waste and corruption. Oh, great.
Although Asian banks had largely avoided America’s inscrutable new financial devices—such as credit default swaps—their countries’ economies relied heavily on exports to the United States.
Two points: CDSs were developed and promoted in the London office of AIG, and if the Democrats had not invented and promoted toxic mortgages there would have been much less demand for instruments like CDSs. Banks were subject to civil penalties if they did not give mortgages to unqualified buyers.
Like every other Marxist regime in history, Obama will fail from Marxist operational inefficiency and from Marxist institutional corruption. We are going to have to bear the cost. Thanks, Democrats.
Posted by scorp on Apr 18, 2009 at 1:17 AM I guess nobody is going to defend this fruitcake…I guess there is some hope in that.
Posted by Paul Thiel on Apr 20, 2009 at 3:14 PM What happened to create this global tar pit was not capitalism, per se. It was a perversion — a complex, and long developing sale of the US workers’ jobs, a bipartisan Congressional/elite big business joint venture which fed the greed of a few at an immence cost to many.
Under the guise of “good things at cheap prices for the consumer” — “only the low-end jobs will be lost” — “the new service economy” — we went from making things better than others, safer than others and healthier than others to flipping burgers, packing groceries and mowing lawns. (What when I was young were considered after school jobs.)
The Bush administration’s Henry Paulson and his cronies have worked a gigantic scam on us and Sir Obama The Transparent Savior “we have been waiting for” has yet to deliver a change I can believe in. (Or that I want to believe is happening to our republic.)
When enough people have lost jobs, have become afraid to eat the uninspected crap we import, have been issued counterfeit prescription drugs — we may return to making things we can sell to each other and to foreign countries once more.
That will be the only capitalism we need.
Posted by whattheheck on Apr 28, 2009 at 8:45 PM Everyone knows that the reason the meltdown is going global is that is is being caused by the international totalitarian marxists who currently hold the reins of global power. True prosperity will come when we boycott companies who are cooperating with the liberal fascists, when we refuse to buy Obama-mobiles, when we take our children out of the government indoctrination centers, when we stop hiring liberals and start rewarding productive, freedom-loving citizens with real jobs, not phony government “green” jobs. The end of liberal fascism will result in an explosion of productivity and a dramatic rise in living standards. At some point, the lib-nazis will run out of places to borrow money to support their false prosperity, their Potemkin village wil be burned to the ground, and freedom, private property rights, contractual rights, and the Constitution will be restored.
Posted by doctorfixit on May 7, 2009 at 8:07 PM Mark Martinez, in his new book “The Myth of the Free Market: The Role of the State in a Capitalist Economy” discusses a lot of these issues.
http://www.styluspub.com/Books/BookDetail.aspx?productID=194259
Posted by kpbooks on May 8, 2009 at 1:16 PM To take a quick jab at Paul Thiel, he says:
” Capitalism, which has lifted more people out of poverty than any other system in the history of mankind, will be replaced by corrupt statism.”
That’s the equivalent of:“Piracy, which has lifted more Somalis out of poverty than any other system in its history, will be replaced by corrupt statism.”
That particular argument is insufficient except as a knee jerk stab at self-preservation. And if corruption is such a problem, why embrace its core motivation with capitalism? Anyone who thinks full-tilt capitalism is going to keep us free of corruption has to be burdened with a very narrow and perhaps twisted definition of corruption.
Posted by Dr Cornelius on May 8, 2009 at 7:33 PM Dr Cornelius,
Whether it is a Somali pirate or a corrupt state, both point a large gun at you and relieve you of your liberty.
I will willingly accept your jab if you can point to an economic system that has elevated more people out of poverty than capitalism. Otherwise, please consider your jab parried.
Paul
Posted by Paul Thiel on May 8, 2009 at 7:45 PM Dr. Cornelius -
I take it you are not a medical doctor. Marxist professor? Figures.
“Capitalist” is a Marxist term and is grossly inadequate to describe anything in contemporary economics and politics. The proper term is “free-market, rule-of-law democracy”, but that is awkward, and “capitalist” is used as long as we know what we are talking about, as Paul does. But you are using the term “capitalist” as Marx would use it, and consequently you and Paul are talking past one another.
For instance, Enron, Tyco, WorldCom, Dynegy, Global Crossing, and Qwest were cited by Democrats as failures of “capitalism”. But every single one of these crimes were initiated during the Clinton Adminsitration, while Clinton was diddling Monica (or whomever). These crimes were discovered and persecuted by the Bush Administration (by Alberto Gonzalez, in fact). It is not that crimes are not committed in a free-market, rule-of-law democracy, but that the law is applied and potential miscreants are discouraged.
Contrast that with LBJ’s War on Poverty that utterly wasted $6.6 trillion over a thirty-year period, and was finally, mercifully terminated due to the growing recognition of fraud and corruption in WoP. Fraud and corruption was allowed to continue for so long because there was a powerful Democratic Party miscreant constituency that profited handsomely from the War on Poverty. And as the WoP was phased out, another corrupt Democratic Party program was phased in, the mortgage follies. See how that works?
Now we have an administration that is totally corrupt and wasteful beyond anything LBJ and Clinton ever thought about.
Enjoy.
Posted by scorp on May 9, 2009 at 12:01 AM Bunk. We are just in one more bust from a typical boom and bust cycle. The only, and significant, diffference, is the scale. Just like modern baseball players make more money than Joe DiMaggio because there is more money to be made because of TV, this boom was bigger than ever and therefore the bust bigger than ever because there is so much more money around, and some smart guys got a whole lot more clever with leverage and what leverages up, can leverage down. The shame is that we thought we had learned better, pace Greenspan, and we hadn’t. With luck the Obama stimulus will work or at least build confidence back, and we will go back to another round. That may be happening already.
In any case, there is no reason to believe the government, which at best was a conscious observer or, at worst, complicit, will do any better the next time.
I’m not sure he knew what he was talking about, but McCain was right when he said the fundamentals were sound: the population continues to grow, most people continue to work, spend, think , innovate and procreate, and technology continues to make us more productive. Just hang on a bit and don’t let the folks who never liked the system in the first place,scare you out of it.
Posted by jack latona on May 9, 2009 at 1:41 AM Jack Latona,
If you’d care to point to an economic system that has raised more people out of poverty than capitalism I’m all ears. Dr. Cornelius doesn’t seem to be responding.
Paul
Posted by Paul Thiel on May 9, 2009 at 11:45 AM to Paul Thiel: I agree completly with you about capitalism and cannot figure out how you might have misunderstood me. I have resisted for many years commenting and responding and got onto this site through Arts and Lettere Daily because, even though Moberg’s arguments, were, as I said, bunk, the follow-on discussion seemed to be much more serious than what I have seen elsewhere.
I am in the process of restarting a website I maintained for years about Creating the Future because I feel there is a need for some counter-balance to all the doom and gloom stuff. Yes, things are changing, and quickly, too. They are also, as history teaches, remaining the same.
Posted by jack latona on May 9, 2009 at 2:32 PM Jack -
With all respect, it will help if you address specific remarks to specific people. It was not clear that your first post was addressed to Moberg, and I found your position confusing.
That said, I am becoming more and more concerned by many references to, as you say, “a typical boom and bust cycle.” This is old, outdated talk that is used up to prop up old, outdated thinking. For example, tell me which of the bust cycles since the end of WWII were “typical”.
We had twenty years of steady economic growth from 1945 to 1965, fostered by a bipartisan group who had been united in defeating the Axis in WWII and in promoting American economic growth. Less well remembered, these same political leaders were instrumental before, during, and after WWII in defeating Marxist/communist/socialist attempts to take over America: Norman Thomas, Henry Wallace, Gus Hall, ACLU, etc.
That economic growth ended abruptly in 1965 when LBJ and the Democrats passed the Great Society measures, and massive amounts of taxpayer funds were diverted to unproductive, wasteful, and corrupt purposes, chief of which was the War on Poverty - cost $6.6 trillion over thirty years. The markets went flat for seventeen years, during which there were three recessions culminating in the Carter Catastrophe.
Economic growth resumed in 1983 under the Reagan reforms, but it was no longer bipartisan. Marxists had substantially taken over the Democratic Party at this point, and every economic and politcal point was contested.
Economic growth continued apace until 1996, when the Clinton Bubba Bubble seized the economy and the economy went into a disastrous roller-coaster ride. What goes up must come down, and the NASDAQ fell $2-1/2 trillion during 2000, Clinton’s last year in office. The DOW also peaked and started down before Clinton left office.
Bush reforms worked to perfection and the damage of the Clinton Recession was minimized, with much better results than we had any right to expect.
But the Democrats had left a ticking time-bomb in the economy, the mortgage follies, where banks were required, under penalty of law, to give mortgages to people who were patently unable to repay the money they had borrowed. And here we are.
So I don’t see any “typical” economic bust in the last sixty-five years. The economy works very well indeed when we follow free-market, rule-of-law democratic principles, and it goes straight to hell when we follow Marxist share-the-wealth unprinciples, as Obama is determined to do.
We have elected a Marxist, he is applying Marxist meaures to the economy, and we will reap a Marxist disaster as a result. The dominant characteristics of all Marxist regimes are opertional inefficiency and institutional corruption. Never forget that.
Enjoy.
Posted by scorp on May 9, 2009 at 6:59 PM to scorp> thank you (seriously) for instructing me on the proper etiquette for this process and also(seriously) for reminding me why I have kept out of such discussions in the past. For me, a pro-free market, pro-low tax, pro-globaliszation, to be seen by you as some sort of old lefty reminds me of arguing with a Creationist who believes that fossils were placed in the ground by God to test our faith. The gap is just to great for a meaningful exchange.
For the record, the bulk of our economic problems of the 70’s and 80’s were caused by Richard Nixon’s wage and price controls paired with his Fed pumping the economy and his maintainence of the war in Viet Nam.
Posted by jack latona on May 9, 2009 at 8:13 PM to scorp: P.S. Reagan deserves some credit for the economic revival of the 80’s, it was on his watch as they say, and he certainly was the cheer leader. The real economic heroes of the revival of the American economy were Jerome Kohlberg, inventor of the leveraged buyout and Michael Milken, who freed up literally billions of dollars of otherwise illiquid capital and made many American companies leaner and more competitive. I was there: vice-president and counsel of Houdaille Industries, the first big LBO in 1979.
Posted by jack latona on May 9, 2009 at 11:39 PM Jack -
Etiquette no, effectiveness yes.
Earlier, you professed that you “cannot figure out how you (Paul) might have misunderstood me (Jack)”.
This is getting to be a habit around here. I absolutely do not understand how you might interpret anything I said as indicating you might be “some sort of old lefty .” I neither said nor considered that. Be that as it may ...
I appreciate your insights from the 1980s era, and confess to be envious of your opportunity to see things from the inside. I was in Saudi Arabia at the time. Even from there, I always thought Milken took a bad rap.
But the markets went flat in 1965 when LBJ started taking massive amounts of money out of the economy and pissing it away - $220 billion per year on average for thirty years. Nixon inherited this economic mess and the Vietnam mess. While Nixon was not able to correct the economic mess, he did more-or-less resolve Vietnam after the Dems had made a hopeless hash of it. Carter in turn inherited LBJ’s mess, and made it worse.
But I think the Reagan reforms and tax reductions were what broke the back of the vicious inflation and interest rate problems we were having in the early 1980s. It is hard to imagine the Milken insights being fully effctive in a situation with double digit interest rates and double digit inflation; nobody was investing in those conditions, which was the problem the economy was facing. After the excesses were driven out of the economy, stability returned and growth resumed, aided by more investment capital from the Reagan tax cuts.
Posted by scorp on May 10, 2009 at 4:37 AM To Paul Thiel:
I didn’t realize people were sitting around waiting for comments! I’m not sure I can devote quite THAT much time to this, though it is fun.
As to your challenge, I’ve no idea about absolute numbers. I doubt it matters. Nor would I trust any coming from the enemy camp.
(The Inuit didn’t use capitalism before contact with the west which pretty much devastated them. I’ll bet they were happier then, before contact, than you are now, by the way. Any case of a primitive system outdoing our own is a pretty ringing indictment. And you could have asked the same question about numbers lifted out of poverty in support of feudalism before it went the way of all such coercive systems.)
I think of this when I think of capitalism: There’s probably no better return on equity than child prostitution. I suppose you’re proud of that, it being one of your most spectacular industries? On the other hand socialism would point to universal healthcare as its star industry, I suppose. Or maybe its their day care systems. Either way, no contest really.
Anyway, to my knoweldge, there’ve been very few cases of unimpeded socialism. Usually frightened little boys with overinflated egos get their kept politicians to economically strangle any flagrant instance in its infancy. Note our national largesse toward Cuba, for example.
Though I’m quite sure some idiot is working to throw a wrench in the works, even as we write, I wonder how many Venezuelans would say they were better off under the old plutocracy?
To scorp:
Fell asleep reading your silly response. Dr. Cornelius is a reference to a character in “Planet of the Apes”. Thanks for proving it apropos.
Posted by Dr Cornelius on May 10, 2009 at 5:17 AM Dr. Cornelius,
I don’t consider you “the enemy”. It might, however, be good for you to see a non simian doctor to deal with some of the anger you’re suffering from.
Thank you for replying without answering. I consider yout “jab” parried.
Posted by Paul Thiel on May 10, 2009 at 12:25 PM To Thiel:
You really should consider me your enemy.
Oops, meant to say I wouldn’t trust any NUMBERS coming from the enemy camp. (How’d that happen?)
As I said by your logic we should never have turned away from say, for example, patriachies because “show me a social system that’s socialized more people” or how about horse and buggies because “show me a transportation system that’s transported more people”.
It’s nonsense. Arguing that your point is a red herring IS a proper response.
Posted by Dr Cornelius on May 11, 2009 at 3:29 PM Conservatives
Nixon and Reagan if u havent noticed were bigger and corrupter pricks then LBJ and Carter, do u just ignore Watergate, Cambodian bombings, Contras, funding of the TALIBAN, and the other destructive and illegal covert operations u rightists love to cook up with ur local, neighborhood, friendly megacorporations to keep up the military spending, which i remind increased steadily during Reagan and Nixon and contributed much more heavily to the national debt then LBJ’s WoP. I hate both parties because they r essentially rightist on economic policy, or at least the supposedly leftist democrats r too big of pussies to just become socialist like the number one highest quality of life champion, Sweden.
r u kidding about that, “capitalism has lifted more people out of poverty then any other economic system” BS?! Socialist commie leftist pinko labor unions r the ones that lift themselves out of poverty from the repression of management, whose only goal is to keep their labor assets and their families alive, so that they will have to produce until they’re all used up and then do the same thing to their children. u can thank the laws passed by labor unions for ur prosperity and FDR for the GI Bill, which created a whole new market of college students. u can just cast aside ur capitalist rhetoric of work hard and ull get ahead, thats bullshit, its actually, “kiss ass like a bitch so u can get rich, but ur boss gets richer off u” that is the true universal saying of capitalism.
ur anybody-can-be an-entrepreneurship rhetoric is just ridiculous too, seeing how approx. 60% of all small business go down in the first 6 months and the dreams-in-their-eyes, would-be entrepreneurs r now in debt and have to work soul-crushing, dream-shattering menial labor jobs that will always always lead to lay-offs, relocation, lay-offs, relocation again and again, because theyre just too in debt from constant relocation and failed entrepreneur ventures to go to college and get a meaningful skill. the only way that, as u would say, “irresponsible idiot” can get the money he ACTUALLY deserves for ACTUALLY making the product is unionizing with all of the other “irresponsible idiots” that r just as miserable and debt-ridden, instead of some prick on a yacht talking to his stock fixer about his AIG stocks and how they will never, ever go down and how his daddy’s business hand-me-down corporation is making a fortune off of the wage cuts, increasing their already record-making profits. The plain truth is that when u exploit people, they exploit back, and in capitalism, the exploited count for 90% of the population. Thats a 9:1 ratio, so to keep their heads high and not in baskets, they increase wages here and there at home, but create sweatshops in the backwards countries, whose government leaders really appreciate the new Swiss bank account that they set up and filled to the brim with cold-hard cash so they, out of appreciation for these generous gifts, will either let, encourage, or just do the dirty work of slaughtering villages for pipelines, kidnapping people for sweatshops or both.
Posted by dafuzziscomin on May 14, 2009 at 4:26 AM dafuzziscomin,
Wow…I don’t even know where to begin. I will just say that despite your long post, you still haven’t listed a single economic system that has lifted more out of poverty than capitalism.
I wouldn’t characterize someone who started a business and failed as an “irresponsible idiot” and am not sure where you think other people do either. Those who step into the arena are the heros who make our standard of living possible. I’ve started several businesses and made some whopper mistakes. In the end, however, I’ve picked myself up and live a quite comfortable life.
I belive that the “irresponsible idiot” honor is reserved for Harvard-educated leaders who see the train wreck coming and instead of dealing with it exhort us to put away our childish things and slam the throttle of the train to full speed ahead.
You sure do seem angry, though. Did something bad happen to you in the past, or would you prefer to discuss it with Dr. Cornelius when attend anger management classes?
Just my thoughts…
Posted by Paul Thiel on May 14, 2009 at 4:50 AM Paul Thiel,
the single economic system that has lifted more people out of poverty is unionization, as i said in the post.
the only way for labor to gain improvements is the ability to negotiate, with the power of the strike, the truely only way. it doesnt matter if they become more productive, they will just recieve a small insignificant pitance that changes nothing. The owner and his inner circle of managers get the massive increases in salary, effective stealing the hard-earned profits of the creative labor that produced it, citing their excuse as, “u dont work for urselves, u work for us, because we decide who works and who benefits, not u” and people will accept this because they believe they have no other choice, that insecurity is their position in life, and management is above such things with guaranteed pensions, positions, and long-established family and fraternity connections.
Management literally has their own unions called fraternities! Can we not have our own? Who gave management the right to conspire and not the workers? It is the fact that management, inheritors, and the wealthy class in general all belong to the “entrepreneur” class, if such a word can be used on people who were rich before, and trained to be rich by other rich people! Capitalism now has achieved the religiously dogmatic organization that renders the “entrepreneurs” as the clergy, untouchable and with the laborers just handing out their products to them.
Its time for economic protestantism, socialism works out extremely well for Sweden, the number one “highest quality of life” title holder! Its time to apply democracy to the workplace and the economy! Its time to learn that u stop letting the autocrats, Communists and Capitalists alike, to stop taking the fruits of ur labor for themselves and convert to Social Democracy, where ur salary isnt determined by some self-interested bureaucrat safe behind his own made up laws, but by fellow laborers like urself! The radical idea of getting fair rewards for ur fair share of work may seem outlandish, but such a seemingly impossible feat is accomplishable, just ask Denmark, Finland, or Sweden if socialism destroyed their lives, or look up their statistics online, u’ll also see that America doesnt even make it in the top 10.
Posted by dafuzziscomin on May 15, 2009 at 12:23 AM It’s time to rethink allowing liberal fascists to rule. The “meltdown” is a deliberate liberal-fascist operation. The solution is for Free Americans to separate from the lib-nazis, confine them to the coastal cities, repudiate their national debt, and rebuild Free America. Reparations can be extracted from the lib-nazis to compensate for the quadrillions in damages they have caused with the fraudulent enviro-fascism and anti-private property hoaxes.
Posted by doctorfixit on Jun 30, 2009 at 6:45 PM dafuzziscomin,
You may have a point. Unionization has allowed people in Detroit to buy a home for under $10,000. Now that’s progress!
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/realestate/2008854414_landlordnation15. .html
Unfortunately, I live in evil right-to-work Houston, TX. My house is currently appraised at 175k (4 bedroom ~2800 square feet). Jobs and opportunity abound down here (I work in the staffing industry). I’m 36, and was able to pay off my house last year through hard work over the past decade or so (sometimes with up to 5 jobs at a time).
Before you write me off as someone who “was rich before, and trained to be rich by other people”, I have worked doing a number of things in my adult life: warehouse worker, electrician’s helper at a chemical plant, Payless shoe store manager (got robbed by a crackhead at that plum gig), computer programmer, etc…I’m currently working as a project manager.
I can see why you clamor for the protection of unions, though. With your crappy attitude there’s no way I’d hire you. Do yourself a favor. Get your nose out of Marx and put it to the grindstone. You just make something of yourself.
Posted by Paul Thiel on Jun 30, 2009 at 11:50 PM Paul Thiel thy ego is quite large is it not….Congrats on paying off your house , but to brush off unions , is the same mistake most amerikas make analyzing the topic of capitalism and it’s effects on one’s ability to make a decent living…You mention all the jobs you had to take too pay your bills…Do you have a family, if you do, then what was the effect of your extended absence on your children…Did your wife work also, these are issues that take a toll on family life…My point is that your situation may have been vastly different than most people….My suggestion is that you may gain some insight by checking out a book by the author / historian Howard Zinn , titled ” A Peoples History of the United States “, possibly you can get some enlightment from his extremely well researched perspective. Blackhorse is not saying unions are all good , or that hard work is not a virtue to be admired, but in a capitalist system of gov’t , the cards are stacked against folks in the working class…Read Howard Zinn if you are at all interested in understanding the situation that confronts most amerikans. The good professor is a veteran of WW2 , enlisted as a 17 year old , served in the Air Force as a bombardier. This guy is not some ivy league know nothing , he had too work and risk a great deal to make a life for himself , so one would gather that his point of view is worth some respect…Go to your local library , I’m sure that his book is available…even in Bush happy Texas…...True
Posted by blackhorse on Jul 1, 2009 at 8:25 PM Additionally…Mr. Thiel capitalism has caused considerable distress on much of the world community , so that individuals such as yourself , can live in relative comfort…Your prosperity is by default…being that you were born in amerika as opposed to say Iraq…maybe you are a rich boy , trained to be rich by others….Amerikans use up 80% of the world resources as opposed to being only 5% of the worlds population…No wonder that so-called Somali pirate is as you contended pointing a gun at you and yours…One man’s pirate is another mans Coast Guard…With all the over fishing by large corporations in that region…and least we forget the illegal dumping of toxic chemicals in the waters off the coast of east Afrika…it is quite logical that the locals have become somewhat defensive….Most of these folks are fisherman , imagine if you will…their perspective on US corporations polluting their way of life…One would assume as a proud Texan…you would not stand around and allow someone too shit on your head…Would you ??? Blackhorse doufts that you would , and neither should these proud self reliant Somali…I make this point in response to your post on May 8 .....People in poor countries react to amerikan capitalism in what to you is a negative manner , because US capitalist policy is crapping on their heads ; literally crapping on their heads…they don’t like it and neither should you Mr.Thiel….You could be next , capitalism ie imperialism ; knows no boundaries….check out this Bushite inspired recession !!! IF it can happen to folks half way around the world it can happen too you…That’s why it’s called a GLOBAL RECESSION….You don’t live on Mars do you ??? Word too the wise…Be aware of creeping fascism , it’s fangs will bite anybody , anywhere…......................True.
Posted by blackhorse on Jul 1, 2009 at 9:12 PM Blackhorse,
To answer a few of your questions:
- I do have a family. I have an 8 year old girl and a 5 year old boy. I am home every night and do most of my side work after they are in bed. When you ask whether my wife works or not, I would say she does. In fact, she has a job harder than mine by being an awesome mom for our kids.
- I have already read Howard Zinn’s “A People’s History of the United States”. I found some parts interesting, but mainly found him as an annoying revisionist. His writings only focus on the negative and do not provide a balanced view.
- I would suggest you read “The Road to Serfdom” by Fredrick Hayek. I’d say we are on about step 8 now. Here is a nice version with pictures for you (Ironically produced by general motors): http://mises.org/books/TRTS/
- I would also suggest reading other things such as the Constitution, Declaration of Independence, and the Federalist Papers. Unfortunately, I couldn’t find a cartoon version of these for you.
- You seem to be going off the cukoo’s nest when you talk about the Somali pirates. In your head, because of overfishing, the 10 million residents of that country should all hoist the jolly roger and become pirates. Are you even listening to yourself? What do you suggest here? Armed rebellion?
- Although I live in Texas now, I’ve spent almost 1/2 of my life in Chicago. For the first decade I was down here I referred to it as the “chicken fried state”. Now, however, I’m thankful I’m living in the “Zone of Sanity” http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2009/03/the_zone_of_sanity.html
- As far as Bush goes, give it a rest. Personally, I think the guy was a dufus. If him and Obama are the best we can do, the best we can do is remove as much power from government as possible. Obama is in the hot seat now, and the power grabs of his first 6 months dwarf anything Bush did over 8 years.
One question for you…what’s with the Amerika thing? I think you know how to spell the name of your country, so it must mean something else.
Posted by Paul Thiel on Jul 2, 2009 at 12:05 PM Mr.Thiel…Given the limit version of history ie ” God bless Amerika ” that most of us are accustom to being indoctrinated with ; Mr.Zinns version of history is in my opinion extremely well balanced . Blackhorse would like to thank you for responding , although your retarded rhetorical musings are quite typical of folks from your region of the nation…I am never at a loss for why old line yaahoo’s such as yourself cruise these progressive websites. Must be your own little self-esteem issues. True.
Posted by blackhorse on Jul 2, 2009 at 12:29 PM Well , well ,well Mr.Thiel you are indeed an interesting fellow…Blackhorse did view your link to Mr. Hayek , can’t say I disagree with his analysis , especially as it pertains to Bush and the neo-con agenda. But I’m curious as to why you would consider Zinn’s perspec tive “negative ” and ” annoying revisionist “, when if you agree that Hayek is on point ; then isn’t a revisionist viewpoint needed ? Mr.Hayek’s definition of terms is in fact “FASCISM “, the corporate takeover of gov’t…private economic enterprise under centralized gov’t controll , is the term Webster’s uses, but the outcome is the same..This is what I
Posted by blackhorse on Jul 2, 2009 at 8:12 PM Man this sucks , half of my post did not print , what the hell is going on here !!!...Damn!!!..Mr.Thiel , Blackhorse will have to respond to you at another time , my apologies…........What a #%$& piece of *#@%...Damn. Not ever a F%#@!! edit function !!!
Posted by blackhorse on Jul 2, 2009 at 9:11 PM OK…Mr.Thiel what I was trying to say is this…....I am interested in understanding , if you agree with Mr.Hayek’s assessment , then how do you find a disagreement with the analysis that capitalism is the cause , raison d’etre if you will , of fascism. Is this not the point of fact that Mr.Hayek is alluding too, that capitalism is the apparatus ; the appeasement ; to the establishment of the fascist corporate state…How can you Mr. Thiel, separate the two entities from coming together..if this is in fact your thesis…Is this not what ” IKE ” warned against ” Beware of the Industrial Military Complex “. Is this not what Bush has done in Iraq , with all of the military corporate contractors that he brought in ; performing duties usually prescribed by the military itself…How can you argue against the coming of a ” creeping fascism, when at the same time you argue for it’s very existence. Could it possibly be that in your ego-centric amerikanizationalism ( man that’s a cool word ; amerikanizationism , Blackhorse will have to use that word more often ), you have neglected to connect all of your facts..You know the old saying Mr.Thiel ; ” arrogance leads to incompetence “.. Know kind sir , Blackhorse is not inferring that you are incompetent or even ignorant..but the point has to be made , that you Mr. Thiel..Paul , are in fact minimizing your own point of fact…Please sir ...can you explain this contradiction ; Blackhorse is interested in understanding this self inflicted belligerency…...........True
Posted by blackhorse on Jul 3, 2009 at 12:07 AM Now as concerning my spelling of the word Amerika…with a K..Blackhorse is of the ethnic group commonly referred to in amerika as afrikan-amerikan…Blackhorse also considers himself a culturally centered individual living in amerika , commonly referred to as an afrikan from amerika..there is a difference..one points to bondage..slavery..the other articulates freedom ,residency as a citizen of this nation, but not defined by it’s racist history and point of fact present condition…Now in that process of enlightenment and study of one’s afrikan history…Blackhorse became aware that the letter ” K ” is primary in the development of language and writing…So I choose to express this fact by using the letter ” K “in this fashion whenever it is possible , as a way of honoring my heritage, my ancestors, my survivoral and my prosperity….......True
Posted by blackhorse on Jul 3, 2009 at 12:26 AM Its time for economic protestantism, socialism works out extremely well for Sweden, the number one “highest quality of life” title holder!
Its time to apply democracy to the workplace and the economy!
Posted by inthfapt on Jul 9, 2009 at 7:39 PM inthfapt…. can’t make out your flag of origin , but I sure agree with your statement. In amerika socialism is the absolute law of the land if you are rich or run a hedonistically huge corporation , that has convinced congress that if it goes bankrupt the sky will fall. But if you are just a regular ol’ blackhorse , no luck for you ,or I should say ” no money “....In amerika the saying goes , ” socialism for the rich ; capitalism for the poor “.
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