France has charged that U.S. media are publishing misinformation received from anonymous Bush administration officials who are orchestrating a “disinformation campaign aimed at sullying France’s image and misleading the public.” If the charges are true—and, based on the documentation provided by the French government, they appear to be—the White House is engaged in a domestic covert operation to pervert American… return to article
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Reader Comments (59)Page 1 of 1 pagesI’m offended by the idea that 73% of America was for the war because we weren’t able to see through what was decidedly a pro-war media coverage, as you said. But if 64% of people were pro-war (on tv) then I don’t see how that’s misleading anyone. 73 pro-war country-wide, 64 tv, seems ok to me.
Another thing, its possible for people to form their own opinions even if they don’t agree with you.
Posted by Brad on May 28, 2003 at 6:27 PM so many lies, I guess it’s true, “the acorn doesn’t fall far from the tree”
Posted by Ed on May 28, 2003 at 10:24 PM This magazine has always been hilarious, but this story might be a new low when it comes to credibility. Bleifuss, just admit it. You hate America.
Posted by Tom on May 29, 2003 at 8:27 AM Fuck the French. While the Bush administration has done plenty of shady stuff in regards to misinformation, there are plenty of sources outside the Shrub Cult, such as the BBC, Al-Jazeera, etc that have pointed fingers at France’s hypocritical and possibly criminal actions in both the UN and in regards to supplying Iraq banned weapons parts. Where there’s smoke there’s usually fire, and France is burning. And although I did not support the invasion, I say it serves France right. Let them burn.
Posted by Gary on May 29, 2003 at 1:47 PM have any Americans (especially denfence secretary Donald Rumsfeld) managed to forget that America supplied Iraq with arms and money, when it was under control of the great tyrant Saddam Hussein????
Posted by tristancrisante on May 30, 2003 at 4:44 AM isnt it typical of these lamebrains who swallow the Bush line whole, to accuse everyone of being anti-american or anti-semitic should they dare to criticize current policy. There are plenty of americans who love their country but hate its policies. You can bury your head in the sand but you cant hide from the truth.
Posted by Garse on May 30, 2003 at 4:46 AM oi America u bunch of pussies, if you guys are so tough why dont you take a shot at North Korea?? They have admitted to having weapons of mass distruction. By the way I would like to personally thank America for making the world a safer and more peaceful place. I know that you guys are very charitable and instead of wasting money on the biggest and scariest army on earth you are dealing with the real problems of the world, like poverty and starvation. God bless America!
Posted by tristancrisante on May 30, 2003 at 4:53 AM oi America u bunch of pussies, if you guys are so tough why dont you take a shot at North Korea?? They have admitted to having weapons of mass distruction. By the way I would like to personally thank America for making the world a safer and more peaceful place. I know that you guys are very charitable and instead of wasting money on the biggest and scariest army on earth you are dealing with the real problems of the world, like poverty and starvation. God bless America! BTW I hope Brad wasnt too offended because he is part of the most powerful nation on Earth and i would like to be his enemy
Posted by tristancrisante on May 30, 2003 at 4:55 AM Crissante, you’re an idiot. I was offended because Bleifuss accused me and everyoen else who was for the war as being people who can’t make decisions for themselves.
Rumsfeld didn’t forget about the aid, it was a mistake that we ever supported Saddam, he just rectified that situation.
We have to have the biggest army in the world. No one wants Australia to dissapear. A lot of people hope that happens to America.
We do deal with starvation and poverty so what are you talkign about? We give more aid than any other country (by far).
You can’t declare war on a country that has nuclear weapons pointed at you, that’s idiocy. But you can bargain with thm and thats what we’re doing.
Posted by Brad on May 30, 2003 at 11:12 AM I am starting to hate America, I positively hate Bush and Rumsfeld and I hope to see the day when the evil duo and their accomplices are tried as war criminals and then hanged.
Thank France for opposing the USA, the spiritual heir of Nazi Germany and to stand up against aggression.
Interesting article but nothing surprising. Everybody knows how “information” is generated and spread in the truly Evil Empire.
Nukes - I hope Iran obtain nukes because it seems nuclear weapons and means of their delivery are the only credible deterrent a nation can have against the Ultimate Evil and the only way of preserving peace.
what else? and I love France.
and I liked this paper from Chicago, I am going to add a link to inthesetimes.com from my site.
Posted by euge on May 30, 2003 at 3:00 PM “No one wants Australia to dissapear. A lot of people hope that happens to America.”
Ever wondrered why?
Posted by euge on May 30, 2003 at 3:00 PM Euge: do you have anything to back up the various claims you make about America? List Bush and Rumsfeld’s war crimes. What makes the US the “Ultimate Evil?” By that I mean cite specific facts that illustrate why the US is more evil than any other country, hence the “ultimate” evil. Cite some examples of how America is the “spiritual heir of Nazi Germany.” Considering that Russia ran concentration and death camps long after the fall of Nazi Germany you don’t have a whole lot of room to talk on that count.
I look forward to your response and would like to thank your for proving, like so many others before you, that people who hate America love In These Times. In the meantime, enjoy life in your poor, starving, alcoholic country.
Posted by Tom on May 30, 2003 at 3:47 PM Tom - One of the many things I learned in this war aside from the fact that the press (and the U.S.) isn’t nearly as free as I believed it to be, is that specific facts are not important. All you need to do is say something with conviction over and over and over again and most people, who are too busy living their lives than to really pay attention, will believe it.
Case in point is the war itself. No one ever had specific facts backed up by credible evidence about anything to do with Saddam or Iraq. It was based on a “failure to verify the destruction of” or outright lies and forgeries.
I do agree with you that the U.S. isn’t any worse (or any better) than the next place, at least for now we just have the biggest army and some religous or capitalist zealots for leaders.
I am ex-military and for the first time in my life, I fear my government. (much more than any terrorist threat).
Posted by Phil on May 30, 2003 at 6:48 PM Tom , enjoy your life in your red necked, over fed, unfit, fat arsed, drug addled, murdering, undemocratic, debt ridden flea pit of a country. I’ve been there and it sucks a lot more than russia but you’d never know as like most other americans i doubt you’ve got a passport or have ever left your bigoted armpit of a country.
Posted by sharon child killer on May 31, 2003 at 3:39 AM “do you have anything to back up the various claims you make about America? List Bush and Rumsfeld’s war crimes.... Cite some examples of how America is the ‘spiritual heir of Nazi Germany.’”
Tom: The fundamental war crime that your American Empire--not merely Bush and Rumsfeld--has committed is the same fundamental crime which the Nazis faced at Nuremburg. Its called “Crimes against Peace.” This means waging wars of aggression without provocation and under false and phony pretexts such as say “Weapons of Mass Destruction.”
In terms of America being the spiritual heir of the Nazis, this is not merely hyperbole but is increasingly true. The first and fundamental way America is a spiritual heir of Nazi Germany is the fact that you both have the same essential Foreign Policy goal: Global Domination. Indeed, the Bush Doctrine, the National Security Strategy of the USA, and influential Project for a New American Century (PNAC) all envision and call for the USA to create a global American Empire (or Pax Americana, as they euphemistically call it) in everything but name. This is what the phony “War on Terrorism” is really about--not fighting terrorism. Indeed, some writers have specifically compared the PNAC and the National Security Strategy of the USA to Hitler’s Mein Kampf.
There are other similarities between the USA and the Nazis such as the implementation of the various “Homeland Security” legislation after 9/11 that oddly resembles the Nazis implementation of the “Enabling Laws” after the Reichstag Fire--which many people believe was a phony “terrorist” act staged by the Nazis themselves.
Other linkages include the role of the Neoconservative Straussians in US political establishment. These same Neocons draw upon the legacy of the Right Wing thinker Leo Strauss and his odd connections to German and French Fascism.
There is Donald Rumfeld’s “Defense Transformation for the 21st Century” currently pending in Congress which calls for the overhaul of the Pentagon/civil service structures that mirrors Nazi Interior Minister Wilhelm Frick’s similar overhaul of the German civil service in 1933.
And, oh yeah, there is also the link between the Bushies and Nazis in that Prescott Bush helped financed the rise of Hitler himself.
Is that enuf for ya, Tom?
Posted by Nuremburg on May 31, 2003 at 4:22 AM Thanks for the “journalism!” I am dismayed by today’s ‘journalism’ which is a far cry from what I learned true journalism was--digging for the truth. Keep digging.
Posted by Rachele on May 31, 2003 at 8:17 AM News analysts are supposed to reflect the people of the United States and their opinions. Its not propaganda when the more was LESS popular on tv than it was in the country. 73% of america was for the war, so it isn’t biased for the right if only 64% were pro-war.
Euge:
I’m not going to respond to your “United States is the Ultimate Evil” because either your kidding, or your crazy. But since you asked me for an explanation on why people want us dead, I’ll give you one:
We’re the greatest country in the world. When someone needs help they come to us. When global situation needs to be solved, we have to solve it. We’re number one, and people hate us because (as the saying goes) they ain’t us.To those who are “afraid” of this government, what can you be afraid of?
To people who say Nazi Germany and the Bush Administration or alike: You obviously have a crack problem. Nuremberg said that America has plans for Global domination. What plans? Name one country that we’ve taken over (and where we’ll stay for a long time). Are you trying to tell me that corporations are taking over, well corporations are independent of government. You said that the war on terror isn’t really a war on terror. who have we fought that isn’t terrorist or supporting terrorist?
Posted by Brad on Jun 1, 2003 at 12:16 PM “To people who say Nazi Germany and the Bush Administration or alike: You obviously have a crack problem. “
Brad, like most American Patriots, you got a serious denial problem. Believe what you want. What I said was that America--not just Bush--is the spiritual heir of the Nazis first and foremost because you have the same foreign policy objective of world domination.
“Nuremberg said that America has plans for Global domination. What plans?”
Did you read what I wrote about the Project for a New American Century, and the National Security Strategy of the USA? The former is a think tank that has highly influenced the latter, which specifically calls for the USA to create a Pax Americana or global American Empire. Go read the links I provided.
“Name one country that we’ve taken over (and where we’ll stay for a long time).”
Ever heard of Afghanistan and Iraq to name but two countries where the USA has its troops stationed and its Puppet Government installed. And yes, you will be in these countries a long time.
“Are you trying to tell me that corporations are taking over, well corporations are independent of government.”
I am saying that American Capitalism is attempting to dominate and exploit the world. Capiche?
“You said that the war on terror isn’t really a war on terror. who have we fought that isn’t terrorist or supporting terrorist?”
Well, Iraq for one which has no connections to Al-Queda contrary to what your lying American Free press and government says. As for Afghanistan, the USA invaded this country not because it was harboring Al-queda but because it is geostrategically important in terms of American colonization of Caspian oil. In fact, there are current reports that the USA is tacitly supporting Hamid Karzai’s efforts to bring in former high level Taliban officals as part of his government no less. Now does this sound like the actions of a Government that is concerned about getting those Evildoing terrorist dead or alive?
Posted by Nuremburg on Jun 1, 2003 at 3:10 PM “News analysts are supposed to reflect the people of the United States and their opinions. Its not propaganda when the more was LESS popular on tv than it was in the country. 73% of america was for the war, so it isn’t biased for the right if only 64% were pro-war.”
I love your logic Brad. If a majority of the ‘Merickan people support this or that idea, the News analysis should adopt and reflect this opinon. Hence, if a majority of American decide that they the Earth is flat, and the Moon is made of green cheese, News analysis should presents these assertions as scientific fact!
Posted by Nuremburg on Jun 1, 2003 at 3:19 PM Firstly, Nuremberg, the things you said were indisputable facts and therefore it doesn’t matter what public opinion is. Whether or not to go to war is an OPINION and therefore the people who commentate on the news should reflect public OPINION. Facts are a lot different than opinion.
The sources you provided (www.pncerevealed.com) is a left-wing rally site, not a credible news source.
Sadam has been an enemy of the US for a long time and was harboing terrorists in his country (they were not al-quada, but a terrorist is a terrorist).. Afghanistan had an anti-america government in place that was harboring terrorists, so what are you talking about? All those people in Guantanamo Bay were found in Afghanistan. And even if you are right about us staying in countries (which you’re not) those are two small countries, we haven’t declared war on any of the world’s powerful nations, nor will we.
You’re wrong about “American capitalism.” It doesn’t matter what country a company is from if it is a well run corporation then it can thrive anywhere, it is not strictly an American thing. If it just so happens that Coke/Nike/Mcdonalds are the one’s globalizing, then that it isn’t bad because these companies’ services are wanted in other countries otherwise that would not be there.
Where is the SS and the SA of America? Where is the attempt to eliminate a certain group of people? We still have freedom of speech. We don’t have a dictator. Nazi Germany had all of these, and Americans are appalled at all of these ideas, so don’t tell me that we are like Nazi Germany, thats complete crap and it cannot be substantiated by any real facts.
Posted by Brad on Jun 1, 2003 at 3:42 PM “Firstly, Nuremberg, the things you said were indisputable facts and therefore it doesn’t matter what public opinion is. Whether or not to go to war is an OPINION and therefore the people who commentate on the news should reflect public OPINION. Facts are a lot different than opinion.”
You should honestly listen to yourself. What you are basically saying is that News analysts should only make comments that reflect prevailing public opinon. This is called conformity and sheeple-like behavior.
“The sources you provided (www.pncerevealed.com) is a left-wing rally site, not a credible news source.”
As opposed to Right Wing rally site like Fox News, or a politically Centrist site like CNN which are? Come on.
“Sadam has been an enemy of the US for a long time and was harboing terrorists in his country (they were not al-quada, but a terrorist is a terrorist).. “
Which “terrorists”? The guy who did the Achille Lauro job a long time ago. Are you telling me this is the fundamental reason why the USA invaded Iraq and killed several thousand people. Get real. By the way, where are those Weapons of Mass Destruction?
“Afghanistan had an anti-america government in place that was harboring terrorists, so what are you talking about? All those people in Guantanamo Bay were found in Afghanistan. “
The USA had specific and credible plans to invade Afghanistan before 9-11 even happened. Throughout the past decade, the USA was negotiating and engaging with this evil “Anti-American” terrorist harboring Afghani government in order to build a gas pipeline through the nation. When this pipeline deal fell through, all of a sudden relations between the USA and Afghanistan got chilly.
Moreover if America’s “War on Terrorism” really is about fighting terrorism, why is the Bush Regime tacitly supporting Hamid Karzai’s not-so-secret negotiations with current high level Taliban people, some of whom are on America’s Most Wanted List no less!
Posted by Nuremburg on Jun 2, 2003 at 8:50 AM Cont’d…
Regarding your comments about American capitalism, these corporations are global in terms of their REACH, but are ultimately controlled and owned by Americans. More importantly, the profits ultimately flow back to American pockets and hands.
“Where is the SS and the SA of America?”
Ever heard of the FBI or the Dept. Homeland Security? Check out the scary shit at this link below:
http://dc.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=71199&group=webcast
“Where is the attempt to eliminate a certain group of people?”
What about all those Arabs and Muslims who have been harrassed and imprisoned?
“We still have freedom of speech.”
Ask Tim Robbins, the Dixie Chicks, or Chris Hedges about this.
“We don’t have a dictator.”
The Bush Regime was not elected. They came to power by stealing an election.
“Nazi Germany had all of these, and Americans are appalled at all of these ideas, so don’t tell me that we are like Nazi Germany, thats complete crap and it cannot be substantiated by any real facts.”
What I was emphasizing was the fact that American FOREIGN POLICY has the same agenda as that of the Third Reich. That agenda is Global Domination, nothing less. In terms of Foreign Policy, the US-Nazi analogies are apt.
Posted by Nuremburg on Jun 2, 2003 at 8:54 AM Nuremburg: no one is trying to “eliminate” Arabs, as you suggested. It’s called profiling and it is completely different from Hitler’s genocide. And despite what whiners like the Dixie Chicks, Tim Robbins, and Chris Hedges say, we do have freedom of speech. Government has not obstructed their right to speech. Rather, they are bitching about having to suffer the consequences of offending a large majority of the American people. The government has nothing to do with this. George Bush was not legally elected, you say? The Supreme Court disagrees and I suspect they know the law better than you. What country are you from anyway? Your comparisons are full of holes and you’re making a fool of yourself. By the way, I checked out your references and they are no more credible than this leftist crackpot of a magazine.
Posted by Tom on Jun 2, 2003 at 9:45 AM “Nuremburg: no one is trying to “eliminate” Arabs, as you suggested. It’s called profiling and it is completely different from Hitler’s genocide.”
Only in degree not logic. Also you neglect to address the “elimination” of Muslims and Arabs by America through its various wars. Or those incarcerated in Guatanmo Bay.
“And despite what whiners like the Dixie Chicks, Tim Robbins, and Chris Hedges say, we do have freedom of speech. Government has not obstructed their right to speech. Rather, they are bitching about having to suffer the consequences of offending a large majority of the American people.
The government has nothing to do with this.”Censorship is not limited to the Government. It include non-Government institutions like Business, Media, and Schools--such as what happened with the respective cases of Robbins, Dixie Chicks, and C. Hedges.
What you are doing is to attempt to manipulate the issue of Free Speech itself by redefining Censorship only in terms of the Government.
“George Bush was not legally elected, you say? The Supreme Court disagrees and I suspect they know the law better than you.”
I never mentioned anything about the Supreme Court. I am referring to the fact that thousands of mostly African American voters were purged from Florida Voter Registration lists under the direction of Katherine Harris and for no valid reason .
“What country are you from anyway?”
I am a native born citizen of the United Empire of America.
“Your comparisons are full of holes and you’re making a fool of yourself. By the way, I checked out your references and they are no more credible than this leftist crackpot of a magazine.”
This is the way that most of you Patriots operate. You have nothing in the way of SPECIFIC rebuttals to the websites I linked to but rather dismiss them with empty political labels. That may work on Right Wing Talk Radio but not here.
Posted by Nuremburg on Jun 2, 2003 at 10:32 AM This has certainly been an interesting thread, if nothing else. What do I fear about this government ?—The Patriot Act, an illegal war fought in violation of international agreements that we signed (i.e. article 53 of the UN charter), leading the so-called free world in locking up its citizens (over 2m locked up, 702 for every 100,000), John Asscroft, capitalists with armies, christian fundementalists running the government, etc.
I still like it here since my friends and family are here, but I’m truly embarrassed by the actions of this administration. I don’t think that this place is any bigger of a cesspool than the next place—but I haven’t been everywhere.
Tom - there may be freedom of speech but there certainly isn’t diversity of opinions presented in the mainstream media. The major networks have all admitted to working with the government in the runup to war (go to the Fairness and accuracy in reporting cite to see just how imbalenced the coverage was)
What do you think embedded media is? I’m surprised Fox news didn’t just start wearing fatigues there for awhile it so disgusted me. Case in point is the fact that the majority of americans believed Saddam was complicit in 911, when there is absolutely no evidence of that. By any rational measure, this was a (very successful) government propoganda campaign.
Lets not be fooled again.
Posted by Phil on Jun 2, 2003 at 10:37 AM Nuremburg: as to your Free Speech claims, do you propose that the 1st Amendment protect people from the consequences of their speech? Should radio stations be required to play the Dixie Chicks’s music even if they do not want to, or if they get hundreds of phone calls from angry fans requesting that they take the Chicks out of rotation? Should the government protect Tim Robbins from becoming a laughingstock for his assinine remarks? Should the 1st Amendment prevent a graduation ceremony from erupting when Chris Hedges uses the opportunity to push his unpopular politics? In other words, should the so-called victims of censorship you named be protected at the expense of everyone else’s right to free speech? Also, you really sound stupid when you try to liken Hitler’s agenda to American wars against Arab nations. I can’t wait for you to further embarass yourself by trying to compare our temporary occupation of Iraq and other Arab countries we have fought with Hitler’s policies in Poland.
Posted by Tom on Jun 2, 2003 at 10:50 AM You’re spinning what I said about the opinion/facts. I said news commentators (who present opinion) should reflect national opinion. Therefore, there should still be voices on both sides. In this case 64% were for the war and 36% were against. This ratio was less in favor than the national ratio, it isn’t like there were no anti-war voices.
On american capitalism- If the people of other countries didn’t want us there, they wouldn’t buy anything and we wouldn’t be there.
Freedom of speech is limited to the government. The bill of rights says that the GOVERNMENT may not infringe on freedom of speech etc. I and the rest of America can do whatever the hell we want.
Nurmberg, are we going around killing all of the arab people in our country and the world? No. So don’t tell me we have the same logic as the Holocaust, its a ridiculous statement,
Look, I’m getting bored with arguing with idiots like you who hate the USA for whatever reason and I recommend you move to a country you don’t hate so much.
Posted by Brad on Jun 2, 2003 at 1:52 PM One administration does NOT a country make! I have been following the delicious ranting from both sides with great amusement, because it is a perfect microcosm of the world we live in today. It’s getting to the point where I honestly don’t know who/what to believe. Do we take Nuremburg’s words as gospel, based upon what some have labeled “leftist” sources? Or how about Fox news, the BBC… Al-Jazeera? Personally, like most things, I bet the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
But I will say this: with all our flaws - and the U.S. is certainly flawed - we are still the #1 destination for immigrants. When there’s a flood, we’re there. When there’s a “surprise” famine in some shithole desert - SURPRISE, who answers the bell? Certainly not the Arabs, that we’ve supposedly been “slaughtering.” No, it’s always the U.S., whom everyone has on speed dial in times of crisis, but also on a target. Personally, if it was my decision, we would cut ALL aid to foreign nations and they can see just how big and tough they really are.
Posted by Gary on Jun 2, 2003 at 2:18 PM See unfortunately, Gary, that statement is a touch flawed. While all of us here in the US love to believe that we are saving the world, it’s a very untrue sentiment to have. Certainly we give the most money out...but not for all that good humanitarian type works. We provide the most MILITARY support. Other countries with far far less money than us give much much more in humanitarian effort than we have ever pretended to. Of course we aren’t told this, you have to work to find out about it, the gov. would love us all to believe that we are out there saving the world with our tax dollars, when in fact we’re arming it for destruction. Goooooooo team! So, while I can’t say you’re wrong about us being in a lot of places and handing out a lot of checks, it isn’t for the feel good reason we’d like it to be (are led to believe it is).
Posted by Toby on Jun 3, 2003 at 8:54 AM The problem Gary is that the US has one of the worst foreign aid policies. Everything the US gives to a country has to be paid back in cash with really high interests or the local economy goes to US corporations, which helps aggravate the situation of the local businesses which some (like Nuremberg) would consider a policy of the US Global domination.
The US does give a lot in help, but ask too much in return, that’s the problem, if the government would consider helping small local companie instead of bringing home brands, ths US would be considered more friendly that it actually is.
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t say give for free, not at all. But a little loosening of the the USAID policies can only help.
Posted by Myself on Jun 3, 2003 at 9:27 AM Toby, what are you talking about? We give more aid (total aid) than anyone else BY FAR.
The government wants us to think it because its true, this isn’t a partisan issue, we’re the biggest suppliers under Bush and we were under Clinton.
Posted by Brad on Jun 3, 2003 at 12:10 PM “Everything the US gives to a country has to be paid back in cash with really high interests “
‘Myself’, have any source and support for this statement or is it just made up like so many other claims of American evil-doings?
‘A private organization believes white Americans should run the world. Sources say that government officials are increasingly paying attention’
Can anyone tell me wht the above actually says?
Posted by Nus on Jun 3, 2003 at 2:03 PM So… let me get this straight: we’re supposed to just give money away? Which, in fact we already do, quite often! I have no problem with requiring interest be paid back on debts; besides, in many cases we never even get the principal back, let alone the “interest.” Look at France, we bailed their sorry asses out of not only two wars, but a devastating financial crisis in the ‘50s. We have received ZERO from them on this debt, and that goes for a lot of other countries, as well. Although I don’t dispute the massive amounts of military assistance, most of which I think is ridiculous.
And our foreign policy is, of course a sham, no doubt about it. My only point was that while we have plenty of flaws - and then some - when push comes to shove we’re always there. And shit, forget about the Arab countries for a moment, when’s the last time France, Germany, China, etc offered any kind of aid for U.S. citizens displaced by floods, forest fires, earthquakes, etc? No one comes to our “rescue,” we do it ourselves. And I’m not necessarily saying that’s a bad thing, just that the U.S. does many good things, including Hussein’s ouster. The issue isn’t whether or not he needed removal, it’s how it was done.
As to the question about the private organization with thoughts of world domination that the government is “increasingly listening to,” that would be the think-tank that Rummy, Chaney-burton and Dubya’s other sycophants were part of before Dubya was “elected.” And apparently it’s true, to some degree, these idiots apparently didn’t learn the lessons Hitler’s naked agression and the former Soviet Union’s failed thirst for world domination taught us all. Idiots.
Posted by Gary on Jun 3, 2003 at 2:26 PM We certainly put out a lot of money, but what does it go for? US foreign aid comes in last based on percentage of GNP (gross national product). The richest country in the world, spends the least by comparison. We give out .1% of our GNP, less than anyone else. Since we’re the richest, that .1% comes out to more dollars...but if poorer nations can afford more of their GNP, why can’t the richest. We certainly help countries build bombs and armies, but it’s more the rest of the world that helps people recover from floods and the like.
Posted by Toby on Jun 3, 2003 at 3:07 PM Nuremburg: as to your Free Speech “claims, do you propose that the 1st Amendment protect people from the consequences of their speech?”
What you are advocating has nothing to do with protecting people from the consequences of their speech. What you advocate is to create a climate of intimidation where people will censor themselves for fear of not only political but economic retribution.
An excellent of the type of Free speech that America stands for is the case of the SF Chronicle reporter who was recently fired for the attending an antiwar rally.
This is nothing more than a return to the Good Old days of McCarthyite style blacklists and blackball tactics masquerading as “holding people accountable for the consequences of their speech.”
“Also, you really sound stupid when you try to liken Hitler’s agenda to American wars against Arab nations. I can’t wait for you to further embarass yourself by trying to compare our temporary occupation of Iraq and other Arab countries we have fought with Hitler’s policies in Poland. “
The real embarassment is fascist American Patriots who don’t have the balls to face the murderous policies of their American Empire.
Like most Americans, your defensive response to the any argument which confronts American crimes is to pathetically dismiss them with Bill O’Reilly style epithets. In the the Fox News world that you live in, this may pass for an argument--but nowhere else.
Its interesting that you tacitly admit that Amerca’s phony “War on Terrorism” is actually a war on Arab nations. If doesn’t sound like the targetting of an ethnic or religious group, I don’t know what does.
Regardless, you and other American Apologists carefully ignore all the documented evidence that America’s fradulent War on Terrorism, its National Securitiy Strategy as codified in the Bush Doctrine and the PNAC fundamentally call for one thing-- American domination and American tyranny over the rest of the world, an agenda much like the Nazis before you.
Its no coincidence that the former German Justice Minister specifically compared the tactics of Hilter with the tactics of the current American Regime. If anybody would recognize a Hiterlian style government, its the Germans.
Posted by Nuremburg on Jun 3, 2003 at 11:19 PM “You’re spinning what I said about the opinion/facts. I said news commentators (who present opinion) should reflect national opinion....”
This is your idea of a Free Press--toady and pander to prevailing public opinion. No wonder a majority of American believe the lie that Iraq had something to do with 9-11.
“On american capitalism- If the people of other countries didn’t want us there, they wouldn’t buy anything and we wouldn’t be there.”
What a simple-minded explanation, even for an American. People in other countries are compelled to buy your cheap American imports because their markets have been unfairly forced open through American dominated organizations such as the WTO, or through “Free Trade” agreements which the USA has negotiated through coercion and intimidation much like a global Gangster.
“Freedom of speech is limited to the government. The bill of rights says that the GOVERNMENT may not infringe on freedom of speech etc. I and the rest of America can do whatever the hell we want. “
Another simplistic and dangerous manipulation of what true Free speech is about. By your way of thinking then, a business could fire an employee for expressing an unpopular opinion, even outside the workplace.
In essence, what you and other Americans advocate is to limit, circumscribe, and manipulate the definition of what can be protected under the rubric of Free Speech--even as you hypocritically attempt to portray America as a champion of Free Speech. Your Bill of Rights and Constitution are worthless pieces of paper which stand for nothing.
“Nurmberg, are we going around killing all of the arab people in our country and the world? No.”
Apparently you haven’t heard about the tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians and military personnel you have killed there--all in the space of a two months. Or all the tens of thousands of Afghanis you killed during the your invasion and now occupation of that country.
“Look, I’m getting bored with arguing with idiots like you who hate the USA for whatever reason and I recommend you move to a country you don’t hate so much.”
Another classic American retort. Love it or leave it. Its almost child sport to argue with Patriotic Drones like yourself. You have no argument nor logic. Only empty catch phrases, Patriotic Propaganda, and half-wit insults.
Go back to your television, Brad. American Idol is probably on.
Posted by Nuremburg on Jun 3, 2003 at 11:41 PM Nuremburg, you raise some good - and troubling - points. But, you state the Constitution and Bill of Rights are “worthless”. Really? How would you know? Allow me to turn the tables here - do you live in American or do you just suck in whatever pseudo-socialist rhetoric that floats your way?
First , we know all about “free speech” in America. The government is prohibited BY LAW from restricting the speech of its constituents. PERIOD. How much more “free” do you want? If the government starts cracking down on angry responses to the Dixie Chicks, etc, at THAT point it isn’t “free speech” anymore.
Now personally - and as a musician - I think it’s disgusting the crap the Dixie Chicks, Tim Robbins, etc have endured. However, at the same time, they flap their gums and people who don’t agree have reacted. They don’t have to buy their music or pay to see their movies, etc - that’s THEIR right. I think they’re idiots, but then again if you’re going to listen to “country” music in the first place, well…
And as to “targeting” Arabs: as soon as lily-WASPY-white 80-year old grandmas start flying planes into buildings and exploding boats near U.S. vessels, we’ll target them, too. Damn right we’re “profiling” Arabs - duh! I don’t believe that every person of Arab descent is out to “get the U.S.” but the very real facts of the matter are that the recent terrorist acts against the U.S. were committed by individuals of Arab descent from places like, uh - Afghanistan!
So spare me the bullshit - at least on Afghanistan. Sorry, those fuckers came to MY country and slaughtered 3k+ people like animals. Afghanistan harbored and bred these bastards - end of story.
Iraq? On Iraq you have much more solid ground to stand on. The problem, though, isn’t invasion, or removing that animal Hussein and his brats. The problem is the lies, deceit and unililateral fashion in which the invasion was conducted.
Which is too bad, because what gets lost in the whole mess is the very real fact that Hussein & Co. are out of power, and that is a good and noble thing. Anyone who disagrees with this is either out of their skull or some kind of masochist who revels in the indescribable suffering of others.
But it’s the way it was done. Iraq posed no tangible threat to the U.S., and if Israel and others in the “region” were at risk, too fucking bad, let them fight their own battles, I say. No one seems to want us there anyway.
Posted by Gary on Jun 4, 2003 at 8:12 AM Nuremburg, you have absolutely nothing to say. Once again you suggest that a “climate of intimidation” is a violation of free speech rights. It’s not. In many cases (Tim Robbins, Dixie Chicks, etc.) this “economic retribution” is nothing more than people who are offended exercising their freedom of speech, and calling for boycotts and such. I’m still waiting for you to give me a credible argument of how the 1st Amendment should be construed to protect people from suffering the consequences of making offensive remarks.
While you’re at it, I’m still waiting for you to cite some facts pertaining to how the current administration is plotting “American domination and American tryranny over the rest of the world.” In other words, I’d like some genuine government documents, rather than a link to some conspiracy theorist’s interpretation on pnacrevealed.com.
“If [that] doesn’t sound like the targetting [sic] of an ethnic or religious group, I don’t know what does.” Nuremburg, I don’t know if you’ve heard this yet, but al-Qaeda, Hamas, ect. (ie terrorists) are a religious group. And most of them are Arab. Would you feel better if they were WASPs?
And here’s something to read on the war on terror. I know you won’t believe it because it’s not from a paranoid leftist website, but here it is: http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/030602/usnews/2terror.htm
And finally, people might take you more seriously if you had more to your argument than name-calling. “American Empire, “ “fascist American Patriots,” “Fox News world,"--I’ve heard all those before. They’re not convincing and they’re not even original.
Posted by Tom on Jun 4, 2003 at 8:37 AM Actually Nus, I work for an Int’l Dev. Agency and I see what the real problems are.
Posted by Myself on Jun 4, 2003 at 8:46 AM Gary, I’m just wondering about the logic on profiling “Arabs” and attacking Afghanistan. Does this mean that the rest of the world is free to profile America, and attack us? If you’re saying we can profile because the past terrorist attacks have been mainly perpetrated by “Arabs”, then what about the terrorist attacks perpetrated by America? Those could be things as broad as the horrors coming about because of the WTO and IMF, or just about anything violent in Latin America. Just look into who we supported, trained, funded, fought with etc… in Chile, Nicaragua, Cuba, El Salvador, Argentina, Brazil… There were many instances of massacres, torture, disappearing (they’ve actually had to make that a verb), and other human rights violations that if we didn’t directly partake in, we supported, funded or trained. And that’s only in Latin America, not looking anywhere else in the world at all. America is a much larger terrorist than any “Arab” could dream of becoming (go ahead Brad, tell me to move to a country I don’t hate so much, that does seem to be your general line of thought right?). As for Afghani’s coming here and killing 3k+ (I’ll ignore for sake of ease that 15/19 9/11 hijackers are from Saudi Arabia) does that mean Iraqi’s can come here and attack us? www.iraqbodycount.net points out that at a minimum we’ve directly killed 5430 Iraqi civilians. Check their records if you disbelieve, all very scientific and indisputable.
Posted by Toby on Jun 4, 2003 at 9:38 AM This current administration is the perfect example of one which gives more credence to what parallels it’s own view than what the facts of an issue state. Elevating spin to a higher artform will be the hallmark of the Bush presidency. My issue isn’t so much with distortions of fact by Bush and his advisors as with the media happily reporting such tripe as fact without any real investigation of said tripe. Unwilling to try and substantiate or corroberate the many administration statements shows a crass disregard for the truth. Pandering to the “wrap me in the flag” crowd was what seemed to be important. Once upon a time truth was what journalism was all about, regardless of it’s popularity among the masses. Propaganda proliferation in media now seems to be standard operating procedure, and with that we all lose.
Posted by cynical sam on Jun 4, 2003 at 10:32 AM Nuremburg, you raise some good - and troubling - points. But, you state the Constitution and Bill of Rights are ‘worthless’ Really? How would you know?”.
Because the American constitution and Bill of Rights don’t have anything to do with freedom and democracy any more than America itself. As I mentioned before, the USA’s passing of the various Homeland Security legislation bears a striking resemblance to the Enabling Laws which the Nazis passed after the Reichstag Fire. In each case, they involved the steady and incremental increase in the powers of the State to surveillance, monitor, harass, and ulimately imprison anyone they choose--under the guise of fighting Terrorism. Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with the Total Information Awareness project at DARPA. Or the slow and steady chipping away of the Posse Comitatus. Oh yeah, there is also that minor little issue of a stolen election in 2000 involving the deliberate and willful purging of mostly African Americans from Florida voter registrations lists.
“Allow me to turn the tables here - do you live in American or do you just suck in whatever pseudo-socialist rhetoric that floats your way?”
Read my previous posts. I said I was a native born citizen of the American Empire.
Regarding your comments about Free speech, you--like Tom--confuse your own First Amendment with a more universal and broadly accepted definition of Free speech which includes those forms of censorhip as practiced by non-Government institutions such as the Media, Business, Schools, etc…
The cases involving the Tim Robbins et. al. are merely the tip of the iceberg. The type of intimidation that faced Robbins, Dixie Chicks etc… are reminiscient of the McCarthyite era of blackballing and public smears campaigns which were not limited to Government actions only.The more fundamental examples of censorship include the case of the fired SF Chronicle reporter I mentioned not to mention the many antiwar protestors who have faced police brutality and police terror tactics from San Francisco to New York.
Posted by Nuremburg on Jun 4, 2003 at 11:22 AM “So spare me the bullshit - at least on Afghanistan. Sorry, those fuckers came to MY country and slaughtered 3k+ people like animals. Afghanistan harbored and bred these bastards - end of story.”
Wrong. That ain’t the end of any story. What you are afraid to face is all the holes in the Official Conspiracy Theory of 9-11--that some guys in a Cave in Afghanistan were capable of or responsible for 9-11 without significant help from the American intelligence and American military.
Go to these links for a critical examination of 9-11:
http://www.unansweredquestions.org
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org
http://www.copvcia.com
http://www.cosmicpenguin.com/9-11
Posted by Nuremburg on Jun 4, 2003 at 11:39 AM “Iraq? On Iraq you have much more solid ground to stand on. The problem, though, isn’t invasion, or removing that animal Hussein and his brats. The problem is the lies, deceit and unililateral fashion in which the invasion was conducted.”
Wrong again, the problems are
1). America has no moral, political, or legal right to overthrow any country
2). The American invasion of Iraq had nothing to do with Freedom, Democracy, WMD, or Terrrorism.
3). The American attack had to do with control of Iraqi oil, and domination of the Middle East.
4). Hence, American actions in Iraq will never produce Democracy, Freedom, and Prosperity for the Iraqi people. Rather it will produce the very opposite. Pain and more pain. This is being bourne out as the Iraqi resistance gains force day by day.“Which is too bad, because what gets lost in the whole mess is the very real fact that Hussein & Co. are out of power, and that is a good and noble thing. Anyone who disagrees with this is either out of their skull or some kind of masochist who revels in the indescribable suffering of others. “
Wrong again. The masochist is someone who believes that America has any moral or political credibility when it claims to it will benefit the people of Iraq or any other nation for that matter. This is the same America which has murdered over 1 Million Iraqis over the past decade due to your genocidal economic “UN” sanctions, bombed and killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis during Operation Desert Slaughter, Desert Fox, and other bombings the past decade.
The Nazis would literally have more credibility than the USA.
“But it’s the way it was done. Iraq posed no tangible threat to the U.S., and if Israel and others in the “region” were at risk, too fucking bad, let them fight their own battles, I say. No one seems to want us there anyway. “
This is the only correct thing you have said. The resistance against the American Empire is heating up. The Iraqi people are showing what they really think of this phony “liberation.”
In fact you could say that the true Operation Iraqi Freedom (from America) is only just beginning…
Posted by Nuremburg on Jun 4, 2003 at 11:39 AM “Nuremburg, you have absolutely nothing to say. Once again you suggest that a “climate of intimidation” is a violation of free speech rights. It’s not. In many cases (Tim Robbins, Dixie Chicks, etc.) this “economic retribution” is nothing more than people who are offended exercising their freedom of speech, and calling for boycotts and such.”
Tom: the more you open your mouth the more you inadvertently reveal. So you admit there is in fact a climate of intimidation in the USA? And this “climate of intimidation” has nothing to with an attempt to get people to shut up, not criticize, not dissent? This is called Censorship.
“I’m still waiting for you to give me a credible argument of how the 1st Amendment should be construed to protect people from suffering the consequences of making offensive remarks.”
You are arguing against a straw target. Go read my comments to Gary and before, nowhere do I base my definition of Free Speech or censorship on your worthless First Amendment. As I said, this is about a broader and more fundamental definition of these issues which involves suppression of speech through institutions other than government. The American definition of Free speech as only involving the government is a cynical Fraud and a perversion of what true Free speech should be about.
Moreover, as I mentioned to Gary, the Dixie Chicks et al. are only the tip of the iceberg in terms of more serious and violent acts of repression against dissent in America. The best examples of this are the examples of American Police terror committed against Antiwar protestors. This is but one example:
Posted by Nuremborg on Jun 4, 2003 at 11:59 AM I’m not goign to argue with you because you are beyond radical and you there is no reason because I, nor anyone else could sway you. But I do want to ask you a question.
Why do you hate America so much? Most of the things you say have no facts behind them and seem to be made up. You hate America, you’ve alluded to that, you hate American capitalism, you hate our government (not just bush, clinton, bush, reagan, you probably liked carter because he hurt our nation) You mention how you are a citizen of US, it doesn’t mean you live here. So just shut up
Posted by Brad on Jun 4, 2003 at 12:01 PM Toby/Nuremburg, we actually agree much more than we disagree, except of course where N goes a bit overboard.
Toby, I’ll do you one better: forget profiling for a moment - how about precedent? Who has the biggest cache of WMD in the world? We do, of course. What if, inspired by Dubya’s recent actions, several countries band together and decide hey, if they’ll just blast into any ol’ country, what’s to stop Dubya from flipping the Big Switch?
Your comments are, of course, shamefully accurate; my only point is that in terms of profiling, from a police/security perspective, what are you supposed to do? Ignore the real truth/evidence staring you right in the face? No - you have to “know your enemy” and act accordingly.
In no way am I suggesting individual’s freedoms should be taken away or infringed upon - merely that when you’re fighting the people who came at us in 9/11, the fact is that they were Arabs, no way around it. And Nuremburg, Jesus… enough with the stupid conspiracy bullshit. 9/11 was the direct result of some clever thinking by a few and the tremendous bumbling of our intelligence agencies. One other thing: I’ve already stated that I don’t wholly support the invasion. But try telling some of your inane ramblings about the value of “liberating” Iraq to the survivors of his regime. I’d like to see you convince the surviving families of the people Hussein gassed, tortured, raped and murdered that getting rid of him was not a good thing, at least in and of itself. Methinks you would lose that one. Bicker about the politics - yes, there’s plenty bad there. But removing that cancer is not.
Posted by Gary on Jun 4, 2003 at 12:41 PM “While you’re at it, I’m still waiting for you to cite some facts pertaining to how the current administration is plotting “American domination and American tryranny over the rest of the world.” In other words, I’d like some genuine government documents, rather than a link to some conspiracy theorist’s interpretation on pnacrevealed.com.”
Tom: As I said before you dismiss anything that disagrees with you not by specifically rebutting the arguments made (by Pnacrevealed.com for example) but through the use of empty labels and catchphrases about “conspiracy theory” or “paranoia.” You dismiss anything which contradicts your comfortable Mainstream view of reality by calling it Leftist. Well, sorry to disappoint you, but the Left is right more than you will ever know.
If you had bother to check any of the links I provide regarding PNAC, you would see that they include many MAINSTREAM (even Right Wing) analysis of US Foreign policy as codified in the PNAC, the Bush Doctrine, and the National Security Strategy of the USA--all of which call for a global American Empire in everything but name.
In the official National Security Strategy of the USA (available at http://www whitehouse.gov), this American domination is of course couched in the euphemism of “permanent American preeminence.”
It seems to me that you too lazy to look these links up and read them. Since you have a political bias against the Left, here are some more mainstream links:
Here is a link from the highly influential foreign policy think tank, the Council on Foreign Relations. It is written by a leading Right Winger (not Left wing) Max Boot who openly admits and gloats about the fact that the USA is in fact an Empire:
http://www.cfr.org/publication.php?id=5934Here is another from the centrist Brookings Institute:
http://www.brook.edu/views/op-ed/daalder/20030510.htm
Posted by Nuremborg on Jun 4, 2003 at 12:49 PM Here are some links all from mainstream Media sources. The Atlanta Journal Constitution, Sunday Herald, Sydney Morning Herald, the Right Wing Libertarian Antiwar.com, Christian Science Monitor, Guardian:
http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/opinion/0902/29bookman.html
http://www.sundayherald.com/27735
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/09/20/1032054963259.html
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/09/22/1032055033082.html
http://www.antiwar.com/malic/m092602.html
http://www.antiwar.com/orig/weiner6.html (this is written from a Liberal perspective)
http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0923/p01s03-uspo.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,968406,00.htmlRead them, and then tell me that US Foreign policy is not about Empire building.
To me its very funny, that the average American clings to his/her lies that the USA is just another country (only more powerful) when your Rulers and Ruling Class are much more open and honest about what America is and what they want it to be: an Empire, planetary in scope.
“Nuremburg, I don’t know if you’ve heard this yet, but al-Qaeda, Hamas, ect. (ie terrorists) are a religious group. And most of them are Arab. Would you feel better if they were WASPs?
And here’s something to read on the war on terror. I know you won’t believe it because it’s not from a paranoid leftist website, but here it is: http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/030602/usnews/2terror.htm”Go and check out the links I mentioned about 9-11 in the message to Gary above. Read them carefully and with an open mind without malice or prejudice. Then tell me that you believe that some cave-dwellers in Afghanistan did 9-11 without help from the US military and intelligence apparatus.
“And finally, people might take you more seriously if you had more to your argument than name-calling. “American Empire, “ “fascist American Patriots,” “Fox News world,"--I’ve heard all those before. They’re not convincing and they’re not even original.”
Namecalling?! This from the same guy who dismisses anything that challenges his worldview as “paranoid lefist” etc… I don’t think calling out the USA an “American Empire” or so-called American “patriots” as fascists is namecalling. I think that is merely a statement of fact and truth. As for Fox News World, maybe I should have said Fox News/CNN/MSNBC world instead?
Posted by Nuremburg on Jun 4, 2003 at 12:52 PM While it might not be the best strategy to take after someone sort of agrees with you...but what the hey. What Nuremberg is saying isn’t that crazy or conspiracy theory rhetoric. Whether anything is right or wrong, crazy or not, it’s all valid questions and observations that if Bush et al were guilt free from 9/11 would answer and confront instead of back away from and hide. Why weren’t any planes scrambled on that morning (FAA regulation, SOP, when a plane is hijacked fighter jets surround it w/in minutes. They tracked those 4 planes, hijacked about simultaneously, for close to an hour before the first crash...and nothing happened)? Why did Bush have a plane fly around the country and round up all the Bin Ladens and fly them to France days after 9/11, and just before the FBI could question them? What about all those put options bought only in United and American airlines literally days before 9/11? What about the P2OG government policy of “spurring” terrorists into action? Or even Unocal wanting, but not being able to, build a pipeline through Afghanistan...yet now they are doing just that? It’s all much too fishy for me, and then add on top Bush not allowing any investigation and not offering up any of those answers. Someone beyond Bin Laden is either responsible or just plain helped out.
Posted by Toby on Jun 4, 2003 at 2:41 PM Brad from NY,
May I ask what your opinion of the Clinton administration?Just wanna know.
thx
Posted by neil on Jun 5, 2003 at 8:31 PM Oh, and Brad, as far as the first amendment goes, NO, you can’t say whatever you want.
You can’t call a cop an asshole (assault), you can’t slander someone, can’t get someone fired by lying about them it goes on and on.
You’re free to express your opinion but within the boundaries of the law. Can’t go up to a cop screaming, “In my opinion, you’re an asshole!”
Posted by neil on Jun 5, 2003 at 8:38 PM I think Clinton’s first six years were good, not great. His policy in Serbia was good, in Rwanda was bad. He sidetracked the nation with the numerous scandals, he undemined the justice system and because of his distractions, was unable to properly deal with Osama bin Laden. He also wanted to go to war with Iraq but was afraid it would look like a way to move the attention from him. So Clinton could have been very good, but his irresponsible actions have caused this nation a lot of harm.
Posted by Brad on Jun 6, 2003 at 6:45 PM Funny how the republicans have always relied upon lies and deciet to win followers. Sad how the ignorance of the majority has let this behaviour become acceptable.
The question I ask of the neocon’s out there is if the gop is so god like and righteous how come no one is impeaching this administration for the lies told to start a war? I’m told religion doesn’t support the idea of killing one another.
Posted by Craig Struthers on Jun 8, 2003 at 11:20 PM Re: Toby...I really can’t believe that even a bunch of right wing loonies would intentionally ignore intelligence warnings re the hijacking of planes and the flying of those planes into their countries national landmark buildings full of thousands of their citizens.
So how do you explain the apparent lack of concern over intelligence reports and the delay in telling the President on the day and the failure and delay of the airforce to carry out proper operational proceedures after the hijackings had become known?
Unfortunately I CAN believe that a bunch of right wing loonies would ignore intelligence reports warning of hijackings if they thought it would give them the platform they needed to embark on their own political “road map” AND if they thought hijackings were all they were ever going to be.
What a shock it would be to then see those planes not land, not detour to the Middle East but return through the skies and fly into your greatest city’s buildings and it’s people.
Would this explain why the American people are not being delivered a public investigation into this matter?
Posted by Kate on Jun 15, 2003 at 3:24 AM Kate,
Do you feel that loonies capable of intentionally ignoring intelligence warnings re the hijacking of planes and the flying of those planes into their countries national landmark buildings full of thousands of their citizens could therefore also be loonies capable of orchestrating such an event?
Posted by O on Jun 16, 2003 at 5:37 AM All I had to hear was the fact that
Herr Rove was a running buddy of
Donald Segretti in 72 and quite a few events gained significance in my mind. The story that “War won’t sell before August” in a PowerPoint presentation should have galvanized everyone with any sense. Now that they have gotten away with everything beyond their
wildest dreams, watch out. I know they will come for me and my liberal friends---all 76 of us in Alabama. Will it be Gitmo or some secret place? Look at the definition of Fascism! I think the definition speaks volumes.Fascism: “A philosophy of government that stresses the primacy and glory of the state ... obedience to its leader, subordination of the individual will to the state’s authority ... suppression of dissent. Martial virtues are celebrated, while liberal democratic values are denigrated ... led by charismatic leaders who represented to their publics the strength that could rescue their nation from political and economic conditions.” - Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate Encyclopedia
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