Is there perhaps some distortion of reality going on here with regards to the facts and how the Honduran people really view the whole situation? : "The international press would have you believe that Honduras is in disarray. Nothing could be further from the truth. A constitutional change of government occurred, without violence; and this constitutional change has brought the people of Honduras together in defense of their constitution and their freedoms. Hondurans and foreigners, both sides of the political spectrum, stand solidly together to support HONDURAS. Tens of thousands of people have staged rallies throughout the country in support …
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Natalie
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I would submit that the reason "community organizers" may be having a bad year is due to their own shady behavior, which far overshadows people merely attempting to point it out. Anyone sympathetic to the supposedly angelic charter of ACORN should be calling them out on the carpet for what they've done on their own accord, rather than constructing a smoke-screen of excuses, justifications and finger-pointing in another direction.
Posted to Embattled Community Organizers Gather for Online ‘Upgrade’
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It's inexplicable the position of Obama in this case. Even those who voted for him are scratching their heads. This is someone who went on and on about "the people", "democracy", etc etc. All that's out the window in the case of Honduras here, as well as regarding Iran and the struggle of its people to attain some semblance of self-determination and freedom of expression, political and otherwise. Shame on you Obama. Not only are you turning out to be no fan of individual human freedom, you are guilty of misleading the American people into assuming that you were.
Posted to The Honduran Connection
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I'm afraid I don't buy all the excuses and rationalizations. blackhorse. Obama is not even doing the bare minimum up until now assumed to be a basic duty of any U.S. President -- standing up for freedom and standing against those who would deny it. And when he does, belatedly, it's half-hearted at best.
Posted to The Honduran Connection
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It is a desire over a reality in many cases Maria. Desire comes before reality, usually. However, the problem with Obama is that he doesn't even seem to harbor the desire, or the spirit, and that's troubling. Obviously there are world forces and competing interests that make it difficult to say things like:
"I am here to promote the Freedom Doctrine. The great battleground for the defense and expansion of freedom today, is the whole southern half of the globe: Asia, Latin America, Africa and the Middle East, the lands of the rising people. Their revolution is the greatest in human …
Posted to The Honduran Connection
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Blackhorse, you're trying to play the race card when the game is not about race. It's like trying to use a football on the basketball court. It doesn't work, and it makes you look rather foolish. I assure you the last thing I'm concerned with is Obama's skin color. That seems to be something he himself is obsessed with more than anyone. And you too, apparently. But I am concerned with his worldview. His stance on Honduras is just one example that serves to illustrate the wrong-headedness of it. Here's another:
“The Supreme Court never ventured into the issues of redistribution …
Posted to The Honduran Connection
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Exactly, Maria. It's all about socialism. At least you're honest about your love for it. Trouble is, not only is it counter to the very essence of this country and its founding documents, socialism doesn’t work in the long run, and the vast majority of people in this country know that and don't want it, at least not in anything more than small manageable portions here and there. People have to lie about things in order to sneak it through. That's why this quote and the audio interview was not something that Obama wanted us to hear during the campaign. It …
Posted to The Honduran Connection
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"By the way, does the American constitution allow torture to prisoners, killing civilians in distant countries, and lying to their own people to start wars by which only profit is seeked? -- Maria
Nice try at obfuscation Maria, conflating foreign policy during time of war with domestic constitutional issues, but I'll answer nontheless. Actually, I don't believe there is anything in our constitution that says we can't use some rough techniques to get information from foreign, un-uniformed terrorist mass-murderers in order to prevent more of their bigoted bludgeoning of civil society. Nor is there anything that says we must not accidentally …Posted to The Honduran Connection
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Does blackhorse believe that it's OK to illegally attempt to change the constitution so you can hold office for as long as you like, just because you believe that socialism is the way to go? That's really what's at issue here. It has nothing to do with the Bush "regime", or Rush Limbaugh or Foxnews. That's the true "rhetorical nonsense" here. Either what Zelaya did was legal, or it was not. Nearly everyone in Honduras seems to think not, and even Zaleya fans have a hard time explaining why it was. Just because you like socialism, does that make you're somehow …
Posted to The Honduran Connection
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I didn't accuse you of anything, blackhorse, except perhaps of missing the point, which you continue to do. I don't advocate "imperialism", either. I asked you whether you approve of someone breaking the law in order to change the constitution in order to allow himself to be ruler for life, because THAT PERSON believes that this is the only way that the stupid people will get the socialism they need. "Frankly the political business of Hunduras is the concern of the Hunduran people… If they are not in opposition to Zelaya being in office for 99 years ; it’s their affair…." …
Posted to The Honduran Connection
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Quoting below Mr. Roberto Micheletti, acting President of Honduras and a member of Zelaya's own "Liberal Party", whatever that means in Honduras. It looks to me like this "Liberal Party", as opposed to the party of the same name in this country, is all about being against what THEY perceived to be illegal and disqualifying actions on the part of Zelaya, which THEY judged to be part of an attempt to extend his presidency beyond the constitutional limit. Not to mention the apparent fact that pre-prepared self-serving referendum results were found on his computer subsequently. "The Supreme Court, by a …
Posted to The Honduran Connection
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Inaru, all your irrelevant off-the-mark efforts to pigeonhole fail to address just why such a vast majority of the congress and Supreme Court in Honduras voted to strip Zelaya of his presidency. Not just opposition figures, but most in his own party. Micheletti's editorial addressed the reasoning for removing Zelaya from the country, and he admitted that it was not necessarily ideally handled. But that is somewhat after-the-fact, and not really relevant to the original, central judgement. It was apparently the judgement of those in authority in Honduras, again including lots and lots of those in his own party, that his …
Posted to The Honduran Connection
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So now we've got a 9/11 truther fantasist attempting to lecture us on "reasoning skills". Hilariously ironic. Reason us this, blackman. Why did the Supreme Court in Honduras, half of which are members of Zelaya's own "liberal" party, vote unanimously that he acted illegally?? Could it possibly be because he did? Hmmmmmmm???
Posted to The Honduran Connection
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"just a babblin' away about nothin'....." If you'd said this about yourself, I'd have to retract what I said about your "reasoning skills", minus the 9/11 nonsense of course. Howbout babblin' away about just why it was that Z was so overwhelmingly judged to be guilty of misconduct by the Honduran legislature and courts? Every SC justice got it wrong? They were all bribed? Your best argument appears to be ..... That constitution is not written the way I want it to be, and it makes it hard to Chavez-ize the country, so it's OK for me and Z to ignore …
Posted to The Honduran Connection
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"The issue of the Honduran Constitution is secondary , in my opinion" -- blackhorse
That's all that really needs to be said, and you said it all .... yourself. That seems to be the sum total of the argument presented by supporters of socialistic, state-run, opposition media quashing power-for-life regimes in Central and South America and around the world. If a pesky constitution stands in our way, we'll either ignore it, or illegally change it. Remember people. Once you surrender power to these types, you'll never get it back. The day will come when you, too, have a beef …Posted to The Honduran Connection
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Looks like "cutsey condescension" has devolved into potty-mouth paranoia. Seems to always be the progression of anyone of the "truther" mindset, presumably due to the frustration of not having a cogent, reality based argument. "no one is affirming that a well written constitution that works for the people of the nation in question should not be followed.." Again, you reaffirm blackhorse that your position/argument does not venture beyond what I speculated earlier: That constitution is not written the way I want it to be, and it makes it hard to Chavez-ize the country, so it’s OK for me and Z to …
Posted to The Honduran Connection
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"See Natalie my dear and skeeter also for that matter , this ” horse ” is less concerned with the law of the land as opposed to the human rights of the masses of people that will be held in account for said laws , that you and skeetey seem to trumpet over the will of the people ....." Congratulations. You have been selected for the O.J. jury. Johnnie says go to the head of the box. You answered that perfectly. What you seem to be agitating for here is anarchy. Do you really think that's going to end up benefiting …
Posted to The Honduran Connection
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So it looks like I pegged you accurately. An O.J. juror. Tell me just how the general public now views O.J. and the people on that jury who let the murderer get away with ...... murder. I will tell you. O.J. is not elevated. He is not absolved in anything more than the most technical sense. He is a reclusive disgrace and a laughing stock. And those on the jury actually set back the cause of racial equality and harmony. Because they ignored reality, evidence and the rule of law in order to sooth their inner anger and biases. In so …
Posted to The Honduran Connection
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Looks like a nerve was struck! ...... lol lol lol Go rest your fingers, Mr. Truther, ye of sound judgement and master of missing the point. I'm sure Mumia is innocent as well, right?
Posted to The Honduran Connection
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I know you are but what am I? Par for the horse -- long on accusations, assertions and juvenile name calling, but short on evidence, facts and reasoning. Nothing new .............. That's veiled, not "vailed". And I'm sad to break it to ya, but "fascism" is actually a man-in-the-mirror thing ........ for you:
People who think it takes a village to raise a child have been sucking on the same philosophical lemon as Benito Mussolini. For liberals, this is going to be like a Klansman finding African American roots in his family tree....... .......Only the fact we have forgotten what …
Posted to The Honduran Connection
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No, I was not trying to say that you personally are a fascist, although I can see how you might have thought so. Perhaps a pawn in the game of friendly fascism being sponsored by President Pedro, but not you, yourself. The point is simply thus, blackhorse ....... Fascism, Socialism and Naziism are all fundamentally based in there being a strong central state in control of the people, which is of course 180 degrees opposed to the founding principles of America. These ideologies employ/employed different tools and methods to maintain control, but control is key. The individual is nothing. Today, the …
Posted to The Honduran Connection
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It's good that you blackhorse, me and more and more people are recognizing that both parties, and the government in general, are/is largely composed of finger-in-the-wind charlatans. Even back in the 60s it wasn't they who were responsible for civil rights legislation, it was the people. The politicians were merely riding the wave:
"In fact, the civil rights movement was not about politics. Nor was it about which politicians did what and which political party should take the most credit. When it came to civil rights, America's politicians merely saw the handwriting on the wall and wrote the legislation to …
Posted to The Honduran Connection
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McCain and Palin badly fumbled the Ayers issue, which could have been used to powerful and wholly legitimate effect. His terrorist past had already been exposed .... with Obama cleverly distancing himself simply by saying he was only eight years old. However, the real issue that would have resonated with parents everywhere had to do with education. Ayers' view on education is that the classroom is a place not to teach reading, writing, math and perhaps even say the Pledge, but to indoctrinate students from an early age into hating traditional American institutions that made and keep the country great, strong …
Posted to What a Long, Strange Trip It's Been
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Your average "hippie radical" back then detested Ayers and his counterproductive actions. And I doubt most of them really wanted a communist nation, although some of them probably did. They just wanted the war to end, like most people. But Ayers desired much more ...... and still does. It's not "a festival of hate" to expose and oppose this ideology, it's just common sense. If someone came up to your house and insisted he was going to paint it another color, and you didn't like his choice, would you be hateful for telling him he had no right to impose his …
Posted to What a Long, Strange Trip It's Been
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To sarcastically say things like "that free market thing sure worked out well, didn't it?" is like Tonya Harding sending in her thug (who would represent unions, onerous environmental regulations, high corporate taxes, lending mandates, etc) to whack Nancy Kerrigan's leg, and then wondering why she didn't do so well with her next performance. Our economic system needs to have maximum freedom, with some obvious basic guidelines, and not be messed with at every turn by the ulterior-motivated leeches of government and labor unions. Until then, it will be incapable of turning in what otherwise would be an excellent performance, just …
Posted to What a Long, Strange Trip It's Been
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Just a kindly college professor* I see around the neighborhood once in a while, who used to be against the Vietnam war I think, like lots of people were. I wave to him when I'm getting my paper.
* Ayers was not simply protesting "against" the Vietnam War. Firstly, he wasn't against war in principle, he was agitating for the victory of the communist forces in Vietnam. In other words: He wasn't against the war, he was against our side in the war. This is spelled out in great detail in Prairie Fire. Secondly, and more significantly, the Vietnam War was …
Posted to What a Long, Strange Trip It's Been
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More context surrounding the good professor.
Posted to What a Long, Strange Trip It's Been
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Uh ..... nobody much cares about Michael Moore, but we would like to be able to comment on the Bill Ayers article. Why are comments shut off there?
Posted to Moore Than You or Me
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I'm actually agnostic, but somehow I'm way more comfortable with, and admiring of, honest professions of varying Christian faith, than I am with the kind of religious hijacking for political "social justice" reasons practiced by Mr. Obama's former Pastor and mentor. Not to mention the kind of educational hijacking practiced by Obama's "family friend" Bill Ayers. I find it far more poisonous and dangerous to use the power of the pulpit to engender hate and resentment toward anyone rich or white, than it might be to warn of Christ's coming, speak in tongues to fellow worshippers or even heaven forbid, …
Posted to On a Mission From God
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"With Pit Bull Feminism, you have the appearance of feminism - alleged Superwoman, top executive and mother of five - with a repudiation of everything feminism stands for and has fought for. By now most of us know Palin's resume: adamantly anti-choice even in the case of rape or incest, anti-environment, staunchly pro-gun, for censorship of books, anti-sex education, and, reportedly, a passionate advocate for the aerial hunting of wildlife in Alaska." -- Susan Douglas
"ANCHORAGE -- Weeks after taking office as Alaska's governor in December 2006, Sarah Palin vetoed a bill that sought to ban benefits for the …
Posted to Feminism Without Feminism
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"To his credit, Obama promises to nominate candidates of diverse backgrounds with "feeling for what ordinary people are going through." His non-ideological approach would broaden the spectrum of eligible talent considered for the bench as well as appointed positions in his presidency."
No, I'm sure Obama will never appoint anyone with an eye on their world-view or politics. Just take them in order of application time-stamp, just as long as they seem to care. And I'm sure Clinton or Carter or Johnson or Kennedy never asked anyone any questions other than Will you look out for ordinary people's feelings? I've seen campaign …Posted to Loyalty First
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Perhaps the best evidence that there's not much of a "progressive movement" (whatever exactly that is -- the term seems to be constantly shape-shifting) in America is the lengths Obama goes to make people think he's not connected with it. If McCain & co. are even reasonably successful at exposing Obama's true ideological sympathies, I doubt he'll have a chance in what is essentially a center-right country. I've always been a little hesitant to link Progressives/Democrats with Marxists, but it's getting really hard to discern much difference anymore. And the fact that it's nearly impossible to discern a …
Posted to Does a Nationwide 'Progressive Movement' Actually Exist?
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Looks to me to be yet another transparent "high-minded" attempt to in effect say ...... we should never go to war, and we should just abolish our military. Let's just stay home and hope for the best. The civilian suicide rate is still higher, (and no doubt since the rate of attacks has fallen off to near boredom levels the suicide rates will go back to their normal much lower than civilian levels) but this is just a tragedy. Can't have this. Our military men and women, if they insist on forming awful battalions and companies, should be safe and …
Posted to Bush's Selective Mourning
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Funny how so many people are rushing to reenlist in such a depressing, suicidal organization. Wait till they read stories like Joel's here; no doubt they'll rush to just get the inevitable over with.
Posted to Bush's Selective Mourning
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I hate to say this, but ever since 2000 I've come to see Democrats as being actually quite juvenile when it comes to heaven forbid -- graciously accepting election defeat. I mean, to go on literally forever about how every election you didn't win was stolen from you is wearing a little thin. Of course the ones you won are just fine, no fraud there. It's reminiscent of my 10 year old refusing to accept responsibility for something or admit he was wrong about something. It's always someone else's fault, and someone else is always out to get him. But he's …
Posted to The Great Election Robbery of 2008?
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You know something's wrong when someone who is properly concerned that illegal immigrants are casting votes and nullifying their own is characterized as a "voting restriction advocate". And of course there's no reliable way to know, and it's impossible to prove, just how extensive the practice is, so without some kind of identification procedures in place you've just gotta have faith. The day that Democrats start approving of voter verification is the day that illegal immigrants and unqualified voters start voting Republican.
Posted to The Right's New Attack on Voters
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Amen, heck. I've been astonished for a long tilme at the relative shallowness and lack of relevant experience of practically everyone who ends up as a presidential candidate and finally president. I know there are extraordinary minds and hearts out there among us. The mystery is why the best of these don't ever seem to rise to high office. Ironically, thanks largely to a media overwhelmingly populated by left-leaning partisans, a president that actually did possess extraordinary and relevant life and work experience, a humble yet deep understanding of what makes America exceptional, and the courage to act both in word …
Posted to Toward A New Washington Consensus
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In order to make the case that there's an extraordinary amount of injustice in the case of cop on black, perhaps one should highlight a case that doesn't involve blacks knee-deep in the world of gun crime, prostitution, terroristic planning and drugs. When you continually play in or around the fire, you're bound to get burned. Surely there's occasional overreaction and overreach by law enforcement, but do we really have proof that it's any more prevalent for one race than another, similar circumstances being equal? On what basis can we properly classify something like Sean Bell getting shot as being because …
Posted to The Vendetta Against Black Men
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Seems to me that Wright has his roles all reversed. He doesn't appear to be doing much bible preaching, but lots of political ranting. I remember having to bring a bible and a notebook and be constantly turning here and there and writing things down. That's pretty boring. On the other hand, Obama fits the role of preacher better. He's been advocating working together, finding common ground, etc. etc. However, I'm finding that Wright is at least genuine, and stands by his statements, albeit IMHO also being disgusting and toxic to the young brains in his audiences. I don't buy Obama's …
Posted to Bill Moyers Interviews Rev. Jeremiah Wright
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Wright's approach is fundamentally flawed, fundamentally counter-productive, and fundamentally corrosive. It may have been just the prescription about 40-100 years ago, but today it just doesn't work to anyone's advantage. He uses an extraordinarily broad brush to paint Americans, American policy and American corporations in a distorted and unfair light, as if every white American is racist and unfairly discriminative, every foreign policy move is based upon nefarious motives and every medical company wants to conduct experiments on blacks. He doesn't appear to have any appreciation for a country that adopted a constitution that in effect handed down a death sentence …
Posted to Bill Moyers Interviews Rev. Jeremiah Wright
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If Smedley Butler was alive today preaching in a church, inciting resentment of the country using improper analogies, nutty conspiracy theories, and an outdated mindset, he would be rightfully vilified as is Wright. From what's happened in the past couple days with Wright confirming for us that his clips were NOT taken out of context, and Obama getting reportedly very angry and denouncing him in even stronger terms, it would appear that my instincts were correct, when a month ago on another thread I said this:
.....I think Obama would have been better served politically, and would have better served …
Posted to Bill Moyers Interviews Rev. Jeremiah Wright
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Salim seems pleased as punch that folks are talking about race. That's his thing ..... race. But in this day and age, I believe that when we do talk about race, we should do it in a way that properly reflects the enormous progress that has been made, instead of dwelling on a past that is largely irrelevant today. Rev. Wright, as Obama himself astutely pointed out, fails to recognize the progress, and sees America as it was 40, 50, or 60 years ago. Salim says that Foxnews has taken Wright out of context; failed to present a whole picture of …
Posted to A Speech Even Condi Could Love
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That's some nervy title, Bill. I'm afraid if one is interested in "reality", or "truth", one shouldn't look to Moyers for a role model. Moyers is little more than a left-wing hack, dressed up as a folksy sweater-wearing "journalist". They'll seldom be a left of center scandal - and there's plenty - that Moyers will highlight with enthusiasm, if he covers it at all. He saves his energy for anything and everything he can dig up on the right. Right wing Christians are an especially beloved target of Moyers' selective wrath. Moyers had little regard for reality or truth a …
Posted to In Praise of Reporting Reality--And The Truth
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Seems to me that all Sirota's really done here is demonstrate his own willingness to make excuses for bad behavior, that is when that behavior is practiced by the leader of a large constituency group supporting his particular candidate. Just as his opposites might rush to excuse dopey sermons about Katrina being God's will, or gays and lesbians being responsible for God letting his guard down on 9/11. I think Obama would have been better served politically, and would have better served the black population, had he used this opportunity to point out just why this kind of divisive, hateful and …
Posted to Is Wright Right About Racism?
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Sometimes I think the world would be a much nicer and safer place if more people were agnostics. Neither arrogant and self-assured enough to presume the right to stone or kill or nuke in the name of a higher power, nor enough to NOT pray in times of tragedy and loss, or even occasionally at dinner.
Posted to Caricaturing Danish Muslims
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"How would it have looked if Obama just up and abandoned something he’d been a part of for 20 years?" I think it would have looked quite good, considering exactly what he'd be abandoning. The mistake is assuming that Wright's stances are somehow right, they're not. It may have been a little rough at first blush, but had he continued on and explained just why Wright's message is so bad for African Americans, it would have gone from rough to fabulous. What a fantastic, powerful and high profile message it could have been to all the Wrights of the country. Stop …
Posted to Is Wright Right About Racism?
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Very gripping first hand account, geus. Whatever the small proportion of Muslims who have insane reactions to cartoons, the fact is that the rest do far too little to rein them in. The moderates are afraid to speak out against the rioters and murderers, for fear of being murdered themselves. But they are the only ones who have any hope of changing the dynamic in the Muslim world. So far, it doesn't seem like they're even trying very hard, which is regrettably understandable. Except for a brave few, willing to live in constant fear of death. What's happened in Denmark …
Posted to Caricaturing Danish Muslims
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Thanks, geus, but you're doing just fine. I admire anyone who can speak/write two or more languages; I know only one. My grandmother was pure Danish, and her husband pure Swedish. So I am 1/4 each I suppose. The rest a mix of a lot of things. It would be interesting to visit that area of the world someday, and if that happens, I'm sure I'll wish I'd studied those languages when I was younger. Thanks for your perspective.
Posted to Caricaturing Danish Muslims
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I didn't really so much take offense at what he said; I shuddered at what damage he's done to younger black Americans, or any color folks who attended his church. It's one thing to maybe write a book, give a lecture or start a blog to express your anger and contempt. But to lead a huge congregation for decades, and to apparently put forth rather forcefully, and as a pastor extremely authoritatively, his messages of anger, blame and victimhood is not only sad but IMHO irresponsible and inappropriate. This is the kind of reverse racism attitude he's helped to spawn. …
Posted to Is Wright Right About Racism?
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"However, he is a person in a position of influence and as such should realize his “self” revelation is bound to play a strong part in shaping the perceptions and lives of others, especially the young." Excellent, excellent point WTH. Might I expand on it slightly by asking just what gives Wright the right to dump all his negativity about the country and white people on OTHERS, especially young people, who simply do not share his life experiences, and otherwise would hopefully have begun to escape this cycle of blame and victimhood that folks like Wright seem intent on perpetuating? …
Posted to Is Wright Right About Racism?
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Wright and his church aside, (and if they've been taken grossly out of context, then I and a lot of people owe them an apology) I think it's high time for all the race hustlers out there, who have profited and gained profile from essentially keeping slavery alive, to go the way of the VHS tape. I really feel it's time for a turning point. After decades of affirmative action and black history month and congressional black caucuses and black student unions and "unashamedly black" churches, this stuff is reaching a point of diminishing returns. It's time for black Americans to …
Posted to Is Wright Right About Racism?
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I guess I'm really not sure if NotThisTime is an Obama supporter or a Gingrich supporter, or both. That's a great speech you pointed us to, but if you hear it, and applaud it, it's hard to imagine voting for Barack Obama. Gingrich is diametrically opposed to the approaches embraced by the left, and Obama if nothing else is surely a man of the left:
"There are two things profoundly wrong with the Left's approach to culture and prosperity -- which is to raise taxes, increase government, and essentially allow people to avoid effort by insisting that they be taken …
Posted to Is Wright Right About Racism?
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I once kinda thought of Obama as maybe being someone who could inject some sanity into the African-American race debate that has so dominated our politics, legislation, and even personal behavior for the last several decades. So it disappointed me that he was willing to hem & haw and excuse and equivocate when it came to Wright -- someone who is clearly counterproductive in the effort to put race behind us. But then this: Obama blows it again, failing to seize the moment and demonstrate what I once, for some reason, thought he had in his heart -- a little …
Posted to Is Wright Right About Racism?
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I'm afraid I'm not too impressed with someone taking days to realize something that's a no-brainer. They needed to investigate? What's to investigate?
Told of the incident Monday by the Sun-Times, Obama's campaign called Ramirez-Sliwinski and persuaded her to step aside as a delegate because the campaign felt her remarks were "divisive and unacceptable." "Given the incident, she is stepping down as a delegate and will be replaced," said campaign spokesman Ben Labolt.
They clearly talked with the lady, and she surely would have explained the "facts" to them at that time. They gave her no benefit of the doubt, …Posted to Is Wright Right About Racism?
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My feeling is that every time a union strikes, it makes itself just that much more unpopular, and reinforces the thuggish nature of unions in general these days in the minds of more and more people. Seems to me that businesses are doing whatever they can to avoid getting mixed up with unions in the first place. A short-term victory for the writers, but the whole thing did nothing but piss a lot of people off, and cost a lot of people of all income levels tons of money.
Posted to Actors Union Copies Writers' Script
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"So it's worth asking why Democratic presidential candidates Barack Obama and Hillary Rodham Clinton remain so unwilling to alter their outdated and dogmatic views about the war. Both issued statements Monday denouncing Mr. Gates's statement and the proposed pause in withdrawals; both stubbornly refuse to acknowledge that the changed situation in Iraq requires a rethinking of their plans for the rapid withdrawal of all U.S. combat troops. As Mr. Gates has recognized, to mechanically yank U.S. forces from Iraq according to a timetable inspired by American domestic politics, just when the troops appear to be succeeding, would be foolhardy as well …
Posted to Vermont Argues Iraq War is 'Mission Expired'
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The willful mendacity of our dependably partisan media has certainly not served our nation well these past 6 years. Each and every opportunity to minimize threats and distort the true picture has been taken with palpable glee. "NO IRAQ-QAEDA TIE", screamed the big bold headlines upon the release of the 9/11 commission report, in a dishonest attempt to hide the fact that there were ties, just not official, "operational" ones. As if that would have been the kind that Saddam or Al Qaeda would have sought to forge. No matter, the public has been successfully indoctrinated into the belief that there …
Posted to Vermont Argues Iraq War is 'Mission Expired'
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One tragic irony of the Iraq war and the phenomenon of Al Qaeda and other extremists joining the battle there has been a high profile demonstration to the world, the Muslim world most importantly, of the true nature of this beast. They've demonstrated a willingness to kill fellow Muslims indiscriminately, and the lifestyle they attempted to impose on areas they once controlled proved extremely unpopular. They have literally worn out their welcome in much of the Muslim world, as their popularity has plummeted in most countries, especially Iraq. I doubt Bush, et al, were smart enough to have anticipated and planned …
Posted to Vermont Argues Iraq War is 'Mission Expired'
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I think an excellent illustration of your point is this story, wolf. The whole episode turned out to be not a story of racial strife by the students, (the students didn't know about nooses and they weren't meant for black people) as Salim so wants us to believe, but about how a smug elite media created a story to fit their Salim-ilar world-view. This country is very, very much wanting to move on from issues of race, and especially the young are doing incredibly well on that front. BUT for the continued efforts by Salim et al to keep us …
Posted to The Man or the Movement
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Perhaps he's talking about the richest thug dictators and diamond barons, and the most production of oxygen from CO2 via the rain-forests. (????)
Posted to The Man or the Movement
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Hmmm..... I think it's been fairly well documented that the original Winter Soldiers events were brimming with frauds and false accounts. Perhaps not so much here, as it's much harder in today's Internet/blog age to get away with much, but I'm still suspicious that the real purpose here is not to provide a venue for people to vent and get support they can't get elsewhere, but to paint a distorted picture of the typical experience by, and attitude of, the American soldier in Iraq, and to try to convince the electorate of some overly grim reality that simply isn't reality. Hence …
Posted to The War That Never Ends
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Hi Kuya, Thanks for your response to my post. I appreciate your civility and thoughtfulness. I understand the sentiments of those who so bitterly oppose the war, and I respect those that would behave the SAME WAY if the parties happened to be reversed. However, I have a LOT of problems with the anti-war effort as a whole. First of all, our congress voted to approve the action there. High ranking Democrats gave impassioned speeches on the nobility and wisdom of dispatching Saddam Hussein, and doing so was official government policy even during the previous administration, whose warnings about the dangers …
Posted to The War That Never Ends
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......The other aspect of the anti-war crowd that baffles me is the presumption on their part that they are somehow representing the feelings and best interest of the troops. It's a volunteer force, first of all, and there really doesn't seem to be any kind of mass defection from military service. I'm sure ProudUSMCWife can offer far better insight on this, but my impression is that the vast majority of the troops are pretty darn proud of their accomplishments there. I guess I base this on hearing them talk and reading their occasional editorials, the raucous welcome President Bush receives when …
Posted to The War That Never Ends
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"....more emphasis would need to be added on several & ongoing deaths at the construction site which might have been avoided with better planning." An imperfect analogy, no doubt, but I think I can use your suggestion to improve on it. It would be fine and dandy to constructively criticize the procedures at the site that were leading to accidents, and to offer helpful and well-meaning suggestions for improvement. But to shout and scream, to leap to the conclusion that it would be better to just scrap the project, sympathizing with the loss of life but with ulterior motivations most in …
Posted to The War That Never Ends
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Ever get the feeling that folks like Salim Muwakkil really don't want racial discord to end? It's their whole life seemingly. If they didn't have it to write about, lecture about and complain about, they'd be lost. Contrast this race-obsessed attitude ("not black enough") with that of MLK. We all want to judge people on things other than skin color, but certain folks continue to do whatever they can to make that impossible. I think one of the most powerful antidotes to racial prejudice relatively recently has actually been business including all races side-by-side as equals in advertisements, and also race-blind …
Posted to How Black is Obama?
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Huckabee's a deluded fool. I think Sirota just wants an easily beatable candidate to get the nomination.
Posted to Stay Classy, Huckabee
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"stalwart stand for socialism" ?? More like a stalwart stand for permanent personal power and wealth by a selected few.
Posted to Stay Classy, Huckabee
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"He made it clear to me that, as I suspected, Castro wasn't holding a gun to his or others heads to keep them from fleeing to the U.S."
I hardly think that's an accurate portrayal of the historic or current stance of the Cuban government* regarding the freedom of its citizens to come and go.*The right to leave a country is an essential ingredient of liberty. It allows individuals to escape repressive political systems. For many Cuban exiles, leaving the island appeared to be the only way to obtain basic political freedoms that they lacked in Cuba. Orestes …
Posted to Stay Classy, Huckabee
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I guess that's the beauty of this country, Bud. You are free to embrace and even benefit from socialistic policies, such as public housing. Such is not the case in reverse in say, Cuba. But what makes possible those policies at all is capitalism and free markets -- operated by people who are constantly competing and innovating to please their fellow man -- for profit. Who benefits? Everyone, not just the one making the profit. Are they greedy? Yes, but in a good way. Their greed ends up being an engine that powers a free and ever-improving society, where EVERYONE is …
Posted to Stay Classy, Huckabee
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Bud, if everyone was like you, socialism would work just fine. Unfortunately, that's not reality. Your kids are right, capitalism is certainly no utopia either. But I see a much brighter light coming from the direction of using our power as individuals or even groups of consumers and citizens to demand moral and responsible behavior from the business/corporate world, than I do from handing over that power to the state, and expecting them to do miracles, or even be competent. They've never demonstrated such capability. I've never felt threatened by the likes of Microsoft, Dell or Apple, which are very, very …
Posted to Stay Classy, Huckabee
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"It will create hatred in the hearts and in the minds of the coming generations." It would seem logical to me that Israel would not act in such a way as to gin up even more hatred for itself, unless they had very good justification for doing so. "“When I went to the ICRC, I saw several people, especially mothers, who came to complain that they had not heard anything about their sons for months,” Mohammad says." Is it just me, or is it silly to expect that a "national political reporter" might seek to offer a tidbit of context. LIke …
Posted to Why Is Yazan Sawalha in Prison?
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"Is it really logical to suggest that Israeli forces would *never* do anything that would attract criticism?" Nobody's suggesting that, exactly. They often do things that attract criticism. My point is that it would be counterproductive for them to kidnap this person for no good reason. Why create yet another firestorm of outrage by taking someone who was guilty of nothing? Obviously we're only speculating, and more information is necessary to come to a sure conclusion, but does Israel have a history of taking innocent hostages? That seems much more a tactic employed by their adversaries.
Posted to Why Is Yazan Sawalha in Prison?
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"Actions like these...." And, what of the actions like those?
Posted to Why Is Yazan Sawalha in Prison?
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You are not creating anything that makes any sense to me, but it very well could be just me!
Posted to Why Is Yazan Sawalha in Prison?
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No, but it's also not normal for people to be eager to transform themselves into human bombs, with which to indiscriminately terrorize and mass murder innocent civilians. Nor is it normal to launch hundreds upon hundreds of rockets into another country on the basis of a land dispute. Logic dictates that this guy either was guilty of committing and/or aiding and/or abetting terrorism, or he has valuable knowledge with which to prevent the things mentioned above. Wouldn't it be nice if everyone could simply act normally? I get the sense that one side in the Israel/Palestine dispute would desperately like to, …
Posted to Why Is Yazan Sawalha in Prison?
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Why such affection for the state that Palestinians famously revile in media, in scholarship, classrooms, mosques, and international bodies, that they terrorize on a daily basis? Best to let them explain their motivations in direct quotations. Financial considerations: "I don't want to have any part in the PA. I want the health insurance, the schools, all the things we get by living here," says Ranya Mohammed. "I'll go and live in Israel before I'll stay here and live under the PA, even if it means taking an Israeli passport. I have seen their suffering in the PA. We have a …
Posted to Why Is Yazan Sawalha in Prison?
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The whole premise of this article, on which motivations for noose-hanging are based, is apparently largely false.* This, along with the general history of related deception referenced by Cwell above, leads one to be suspicious that a large percentage of the noose incidents may be more a tactic by the supposed victims themselves, rather than being an indication of some kind of measurable change in racial attitudes toward blacks by whites. How disappointing. * "As with the Duke Lacrosse case, the truth about Jena will eventually be known. But the town of Jena isn't expecting any apologies from the …
Posted to Hanging Hate
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"The Bush-Roberts Court rejects this commitment to liberty and equality. Under Chief Justice John Roberts and his major domo Antonin Scalia, “the spirit of the laws” (to borrow the 18th century French philosopher Montesquieu’s apt phrase) exalts order over liberty, and institutional prerogatives—governmental or private—over the individual."
The Kelo ruling was a ruling so anti-liberty, anti-equality and anti-individual that States are having to write new laws to prevent the taking of ordinary, and in most cases poor citizen's property by big business, ordained by government. Going by this article, we would probaby assume this ruling was brought down by the …Posted to Supreme Court Inc.
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Hi scorp, Actually, when I initially wrote my post, I didn't see there was a second page to the article. Luckily for me I noticed before I posted. I never thought he would even mention Kelo. But on page 2 he did, and although he didn't actually say so, he certainly endeavored to make the implication that the decision was driven by the "Bush-Roberts" wing of the court. A tricky little trick to tar the conservative wing using technically correct designations, I would strongly suspect.
"Workers and taxpayers cannot fight against corporations that take property for the benefit of profit-making, and …
Posted to Supreme Court Inc.
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When we get outside the gates of college campus sanctuaries, we find that most average Americans appreciate the opportunity to gain more insight into what they quite rightfully perceive (after 9/11, the shoe-bomber, 7/7, and 9000 or so other Muslim terrorist attacks, bombings, countless threats and promises) to be a threat to their security. There have been many attempts such as this by college conservatives or Jewish student organizations to host people who dare to sound a warning about, and provide valuable insight into this threat. They are invariably met with protest marches, shouting down and often their events are canceled …
Posted to Wingnut Awareness Week
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In that way, although they’re not looking forward to the same specific goals as the jihadists, they certainly are cut from the same rigid, anti-pluralistic cloth.
I think you vastly overstate the mindset of (I assume you mean) the "religious right". Not only are you being inaccurate, but in so doing, you are demonstrating a fear-engendering, policy shaping agenda of your own. You're putting average Americans, who simply resent long held standards and values being unjustly redefined and shut out of the public square, in the same cubby-hole as murderous, torturous barbarians, in an effort to demonize them and marginalize …Posted to Wingnut Awareness Week
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Uh huh, and in so doing you would no doubt beautifully illustrate my point. You would not be shouted down, have things thrown at you, or have your event cancelled. Perhaps a few meek and mild marchers with signs, but that's about it. Fear not. And of course Israel had no reason or justification for dropping bombs on Lebanon. Just woke up one day and felt like bombing someone. Haven't you ever felt like that?
Posted to Wingnut Awareness Week
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Chavez takes "rhetorical tactics that force conversations into channels" to a whole new level. How's this for a guilt trip?
Posted to Wingnut Awareness Week
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Yes. Incredibly refreshing. Cosby's words are indeed a no-brainer; nothing more than simple common sense. What's so difficult to understand is the negative reaction from so many "black leaders". I guess not so much when you realize they are empowered by their fellow blacks relying on them and/or government, and not on themselves. Following Cosby's advice makes it less likely they'll be needed or even wanted anymore. If Cosby's had been the prevalent message for the past several decades instead of Jackson's, I'm quite confident the state of the black community and race relations in general would be vastly better. …
Posted to Come on People! Bill Cosby is Right
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How about a quote? Or even a single example of a “critic” who has said that the black poor are “helpless victims,”
The post below yours seems to provide an example. Here's another. Or, just turn on MTV for a few minutes. Then tell me those gangsta rappers wouldn't react to Cosby's message with hostility. He's a threat to their very bread and butter. What's most sad about the current angry victim culture so perfectly illustrated by rappers and Nat above, is that it's caused much of the rest of society to return the anger by tuning the issue of …Posted to Come on People! Bill Cosby is Right
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"....they would punish today’s people for the crimes of people who are dead, and they would put a price tag, a low one, on the suffering of millions."
Excellent point! (among many excellent points) Receiving reparations would be almost morbidly disrespectful of those who actually would have been deserving of them. I doubt they would approve -- they would understand how ultimately damaging reparations would be to the individual receiving them.Posted to Come on People! Bill Cosby is Right
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I'm white, but I moved to an area where I'm a minority. At first I was a little worried about "reverse racism", but soon realized that it was my attitude, not my skin color, that was important. I've had no problem working with and becoming friends with the rest of the majority population. Others who display arrogance or superiority continue to struggle, however. We had two black people work with us. One was angry, resentful, and always acted like everyone owed him special treatment, apparently because he was black. The other was positive, cheerful, and had a can-do attitude. The former …
Posted to Come on People! Bill Cosby is Right
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I might think about reducing my already relatively small "carbon foot-print", but I'm sorry -- Al Gore is gonna have to "lead", and give up his glass house first!
Posted to Biofuels Are No Cure for Climate Change
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It would seem that the Jena 6 case is perhaps not quite what it's been made out to be by all our intrepid, dogged and deep-digging journalists. Salim, call your office.
Posted to Jena and the Post-Civil Rights Fallacy
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It looks to me like Wolf is essentially correct. Both coal fires in China and U.S. autos contribute around 200 million tonnes of CO2 per year:
Coal fires in China burn 109 million tonnes of coal a year, emitting 200 million tonnes of carbon dioxide. This amounts to 2-3% of the annual worldwide production of CO2 from fossil fuels, or as much as emitted from all of the cars and light trucks in the United States.
So, since Wolf said only "cars", it would appear that he is correct in saying that China coal fires put out more CO2 than …Posted to Climate Change Refugees
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Hmmm....well I guess those Wiki figures are either wrong or outdated. Still, a substantial source of CO2, which I doubt many people are even aware of. At least I wasn't.
Posted to Climate Change Refugees
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"Nevertheless, he was subjected to the most brutal forms of torture. I can’t give you the details of Al-Ghizzawi’s abuse because he still will not talk directly about it. He alludes to the brutality and one day I am confident he will talk."
So if he won't talk about it and only "alludes" to it, how can you say with such confidence: "he was subjected to the most brutal forms of torture"? And how in the world are you justified in making this fruitcake association:When the Nazis first put pen to paper regarding “enhanced techniques” their primary aim was to …
Posted to Torture By Another Name
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I noticed another article along these same lines today:
Defeat's Killing Fields By PETER W. RODMAN and WILLIAM SHAWCROSS SOME opponents of the Iraq war are toying with the idea of American defeat. A number of them are simply predicting it, while others advocate measures that would make it more likely. Lending intellectual respectability to all this is an argument that takes a strange comfort from the outcome of the Vietnam War. The defeat of the American enterprise in Indochina, it is said, turned out not to be as bad as expected. The United States recovered, and no lasting price …
Posted to These Guns for Hire
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Another great argument against Ron Paul style short-sightedness: What I Saw in Iraq
Posted to These Guns for Hire
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This article reminds me of a very similar one by Jennifer Wedekind I commented on a while ago. It was about how the ROTC and the military were engaged in the evil practice of trying to maintain their ranks. It featured a young JROTC cadet named Tarsha. I will reproduce my comments (edited for relevance) on that article here because they pretty much work for this article as well:
Jennifer in my opinion is operating from a false premise. She evidently thinks that there is something wrong with trying to get kids to consider a career in the military, and …
Posted to America's Child Soldier Problem
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At least Dolores has a sense that Mexico needs to reform its own country/economy so not so many people feel they have to leave. However, I find it interesting that she focuses solely on the U.S. as being the problem and seemingly bearing all the responsibility for what's happening or not happening in Mexico. Is there perhaps not some blame to be shared with those in charge in Mexico for all these decades?
Posted to Rebelde for the Cause
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Corporations, business, technology, etc., are simply the products of human ambition, innovation, and ingenuity. It's how governments choose to utilize, and how much they deem necessary to interfere with these undeniable forces that determines the quality of life and the amount of opportunity that's afforded to their citizens --- upper, middle, and lower class. That's where Mexico's leaders have failed. They have taken the easy routes, and allowed either businesses or the drug cartels to buy them off, and the economy's health and integrity take second chair. Your characterization of Mexican officials as powerless victims only enables them to continue on …
Posted to Rebelde for the Cause
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In the Hutto prison camp in Taylor, TX...there are some 400 detainees...most of which are innocent children. Many of preschool age...in 8’ x 12’ prison cells. These children and their moms are from some 30 countries. Most are legitimate asylum seekers. Others are refugees.
What's wrong with these people? Don't they know America sucks? What are they doing here? Seriously, I've got just as much compassion for these innocent children and their parents as the next person, and if they are being truly mistreated, then I condemn it. If I had the money and/or the power, I would love to …Posted to Rebelde for the Cause
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Yes, I did read the article, and I've not said that the U.S. is blameless. However, It's their country. They need to grow a spine, put aside all the corruption and kick-backs, stop depending on people working here and sending back money, and start to work on an effective economic system of their own. There's any number of good models out there, with the most successful being free-market and positive incentive based. You don't let corporations have free reign, but you also don't fail to recognize them as being efficient vital tools with which to improve the standard of living for …
Posted to Rebelde for the Cause
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I find it curious that LB is willing to defend the kinds of things that are being attempted and carried out by Chavez, things that if proposed here in this country would have nearly everyone in the streets, and might even be enough to get Republicans to march. The power grabbing, the media shut-downs, the huge ownership and monetary policy changes being unilaterally imposed by Chavez, and of course the most offensive and unbelievable of all, the assumption of permanent presidential status by his majesty himself. To all this the fringe left in this country cheers, or gives nodding approval. Of …
Posted to Rebelde for the Cause
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I think it's a little pre-mature and misleading to rely on statistics from the CIA factbook, or a pro-Chavez outlet like venezuelanalysis. I would imagine that the factbook statistics are provided by the Chavez regime, but I'm not really sure about that. Oil prices are up, and so Chavez is able now to buy votes and hide in his money pile. However, let's put aside economic statistics, which will take a nose-dive if the price of oil goes down, and look at the larger picture. My and even Pat Leahy's impression is that press freedoms are being curtailed in Venezula. Chavez …
Posted to Rebelde for the Cause
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Yeah, and Amnesty International is not alone. There are numerous human and press freedom organizations that are not supportive of the trend in Venezuela. Heck, when Pat Leahy speaks out against a fellow socialist, you know that fellow's gone too far.
Only two countries remain 'not free': Venezuela and eternal media enemy Cuba. Since 2002 Venezuela's score has plummeted 30 points (on a 100-point scale), a greater drop than any other country in the world. The country's political polarization and pressure from President Hugo Chavez's regime prevent domestic media from serving their proper role as society's watchdog. Journalists operate in an …
Posted to Rebelde for the Cause
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OK I read the "article" LB, and assuming that the clearly leftist opinion writer's facts are correct, perhaps Chavez IS justified in shutting down RCTV. However, that's just one side of the story. I'm not willing to accept it as final any more than you would accept something from Foxnews or the WSJ. It would appear that RCTV is being unable to even present its case in court, and it would also appear that Chavez has already stacked, or has at least already intimidated that court. We'll keep an eye on Chavez, and we'll see if this action against RCTV expands …
Posted to Rebelde for the Cause
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It's becoming painfully evident that Chavez will not be content to limit his media mediocrity measures to RCTV. Now, he's suing CNN for poorly placed graphics, and threatening another Venezuelan TV station over poor music choice. Message to any journalist or any remaining non state-controlled media outlet: Don't even think about putting anything out that could be remotely construed as being critical of the Chavez regime.
Venezuela said Monday it was filing charges against US cable network CNN for linking President Hugo Chavez to Al-Qaeda, and against a Venezuelan TV network for encouraging Chavez's assassination.
Posted to Rebelde for the Cause
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The reason so many Venezuelans are up in arms about RCTV losing its broadcast license has little to do with freedom of expression. They are afraid of missing their favorite novelas.
Apparently, they really love their soap operas down there. Susan Lucci would kill for crowds like these, five days running! Did Hugo jump the shark? I guess it's a lesson never to underestimate the appeal and addictive power of the soaps, as even I remember a time when missing DOOL was like a living hell.Posted to Rebelde for the Cause
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After investigation, Reporters Without Borders condemns Chavez's action against RCTV.
Posted to Rebelde for the Cause
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MARACAIBO, Venezuela: Politics penetrated a South American soccer championship when thousands of Venezuelan soccer fans rose to their feet and loudly chanted "Freedom!" in a clear affront to President Hugo Chavez..... .......About half the crowd of 40,000 appeared to join in the chants, which filled the stadium for about three minutes....... .......U.S. head coach Bob Bradley has said Venezuelan organizers have welcomed his team warmly despite Chavez's hostile relationship with Washington...... But pro-government advertising seems to be everywhere at the tournament. At each of the nine stadiums, pictures of Chavez are displayed prominently under giant banners like the one in Maracaibo …
Posted to Rebelde for the Cause
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CARACAS, Venezuela (AP) - Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez threatened on Monday to close or take over any private school that refuses to submit to the oversight of his socialist government as it develops a new curriculum and textbooks. "Society cannot allow the private sector to do whatever it wants," said Chavez, speaking on the first day of classes. All schools, public and private, must admit state inspectors and submit to the government's new educational system, or be closed and nationalized, with the state taking responsibility for the education of their children, Chavez said. A new curriculum will be ready by …
Posted to Rebelde for the Cause
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Issues of motivation are best addressed during sentencing, and are not practically able to be quantified in statute. Just as a judge or jury might increase the sentence of an attacker if it was determined that he simply attacked people for the thrill of it, or the fun of it, and not because he was hungry or desperate for money, they will similarly take into account if his motivation was solely the race/gender/orientation of the victim. The problem is defining hate and determining who gets to be included in the groups of people that deserve to be protected from "hate". Should …
Posted to Defining Hate in the United States
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I'm surprised that we're not trying to disprove the link between hate crimes and depleted uranium.
Actually, the two have much in common. Both are phony issues designed to further another agenda. One is obvious, and the other I'm about 80% sure of. DU wackjobs are simply out to hobble and discredit the U.S. military in any way they can, so they exaggurate the effects of DU light-years beyond what's accurate. Above and beyond the fact that crimes committed soley on the basis of hate are relatively rare these days, and like DU their true extent is often unjustly distorted, I'm …Posted to Defining Hate in the United States
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Has anyone noticed, the *only* reason given here for enhancing penalties for "hate" crimes is that, if we do not, we are lacking in empathy and therefore must be republican right wingers?
Indeed wolf. In this discussion about hate, Aunty has expressed plenty of it herself, ironically while arguing for laws against such things. Nested between the Hi,yalls! and the Ta-Tas!, are nuggets of palpable disdain and mis-placed umbrella characterizations she seems to think are perfectly socially acceptable when it comes to "right-wingers", while the article she defends complains about how certain hate-induced crimes are thought of as OK and justified …Posted to Defining Hate in the United States
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Thanks wolf, and thanks as well WTH for your earlier comment. I think this is instructive and illustrates my earlier point about getting stuck in one's own web:
9. About f*****g time. Buh-buy, Foulball.
What was that earlier lecture from the teacher about the use of the F-word?This just occurred to me. Isn't it funny how many times the word f*ck appears in all those insults? Perhaps that's an indicator of what's missing in the lives of the young men who do such terrible acts. Such an easily remedied problem, Then again,having known a few, most men who commit …
Posted to Defining Hate in the United States
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How timely and applicable is this?
Millions of human beings died of starvation, and of diseases related to severe malnutrition, when the economic ideas of Stalin in the Soviet Union and Mao in China were inflicted on the population living -- and dying -- under their iron rule. In both cases, the deaths exceeded the deaths caused by Hitler's genocide, which was also a consequence of ignorant presumptions by those with totalitarian power. Many on the left may protest that they do not believe in the ideas or the political systems that prevailed under Hitler, Stalin or Mao. No doubt …
Posted to Defining Hate in the United States
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I'm sorry for what happened to you, Chris --- I'm sure we all are --- but don't you see the slippery slope we're proceeding down here? Who's next in line who thinks they deserve special protection under the law? First race, then religion, then sexual orientation. How many of the other dozens and dozens of orientations, lifestyles, belief systems and mental and physical differences from the norm should be included among the "protected"? How many pages do we have to add to the law books, and just how much more complicated do we have to make it in order to …
Posted to Defining Hate in the United States
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I stand corrected, and have done so above, however surely there are cases of people acquiring a taste for homosexuality due to outside and sometimes coercive influences, a taste that otherwise would never have developed. I do agree that most people have no choice about their orientation. They do however have a choice in how they display and telegraph it, unlike with race. There's any number of lifestyles that one might want to be open with, but would also invite a violent negative reaction if flaunted or pushed on others. Either way, it really doesn't change my argument, as even race-based …
Posted to Defining Hate in the United States
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What's so bad about hate? The illogic and illiberalism behind hate-crime laws.
.........And why is hate for a group worse than hate for a person? In Laramie, Wyo., the now-famous epicenter of ''homophobia,'' where Matthew Shepard was brutally beaten to death, vicious murders are not unknown. In the previous 12 months, a 15-year-old pregnant girl was found east of the town with 17 stab wounds. Her 38-year-old boyfriend was apparently angry that she had refused an abortion and left her in the Wyoming foothills to bleed to death. In the summer of 1998, an 8-year-old Laramie girl was abducted, raped …
Posted to Defining Hate in the United States
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Another great essay pointing out the folly and the counter-productive nature of hate crimes laws.
Posted to Defining Hate in the United States
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Mia, thanks for hosting that MSNBC Broaddrick/Meyers interview. I watched it when it aired, and I thought I had taped it but could never find the tape for some reason. That interview is what finally made me realize --- along with all the other accounts of affairs, unwanted advances, cigars inside interns, etc etc --- that we had a genuine sexual predator in the White House. I guess it's one thing to have a President carrying on illicit, supposedly consensual affairs ala JFK, even though that in itself is reckless from a national security standpoint, but the rape of Broaddrick and …
Posted to Why Women Hate Hillary
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Have you viewed the interview, luminous? JB is completely and totally credible, and I submit that is why this interview was shown once and only once on MSNBC on a Sun. afternoon as I recall, and AFAIK was never mentioned on the NBC nightly news or any other Democrat run media outlet. Perhaps in extremely brief passing terms, but I believe that was about all. Like they said, the problem JB, is that you're TOO credible. Now if you want to deny that if there was someone equally credible who came forward with the same kinds of allegations against GWB, that …
Posted to Why Women Hate Hillary
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Holy crap. Why can't the Clintons just go away? The Bush haters at least can rest easy knowing that sometime in Jan. 09 George will make a bee-line for his eco-friendly ranch, and will thereafter rarely be heard from, and that his wife would no more run for Senate and then the Presidency than would Barney or Miss Beazley. But we continue to live in fear of another eight years of a Clinton, actually by many accounts the one who was really in charge during the first eight, not to mention all the Strobe Talbot/Sandy Burglar types she'd appoint. …
Posted to Why Women Hate Hillary
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She actually would make a good 1st lady, in that it would appear that she's actually a lady, and not a cold hearted political cutthroat opportunist like HRC. However, if she really does have ambitions for the position, she should have picked someone else. I do see why DK appeals to you. He's really just a wimpified version of Hugo Chavez, and would no doubt be in favor of shutting down media unfavorable to him, and taking everyone's land away and giving it to "the poor" to mismanage. His problem however, is that his brawny latin brain-twin would no doubt …
Posted to Why Women Hate Hillary
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The boom in Iraq is just the tip of the iceberg for the $100 billion-a- year industry, which experts say has been the fastest-growing sector of the global economy during the past decade. From oil companies in the African hinterland to heads of state in Haiti and Afghanistan to international aid agencies in hotspots around the world, the difference between life and death is decided by private guns for hire....... ......The trend is highly controversial. Some critics point out that security firms are largely unaccountable to governments, the courts or the public, and say that sets a dangerous precedent for covert …
Posted to Why Women Hate Hillary
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Interesting, scorp. Perhaps the tail end needs some more "group" therapy. In other news, could it be that Bill is not the only perjurer in the family?
Posted to Why Women Hate Hillary
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You don't see the parellels with "Nuremberg Trials" with Spencer Tracy and Bush? Esp. the way average, ordinary people were 'fooled and lied to' and avoided making obvious conclusions of what was happening right under their noses and in plain sight?
Part of why Republican politicians appeal to me more than Democrat ones any more is because I've come to realize, sometimes sadly, that most Republicans aren't really all that interested in power --- talking in a general sense of course. There are no doubt exceptions. This trait is attractive to me in the abstract, as I think it pretty much …Posted to Why Women Hate Hillary
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Mia, I would urge you to sign up and participate at the "Media Matters" site. They are acting as the Hillary defense team, under the guise of "correcting conservative mis-information". It seems that the media gets many of their talking points and takes their cues from there. You have to be fairly quick, though, as they close their discussions after not too long.
Posted to Why Women Hate Hillary
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Great work! I just want you to know how much that Bill and I appreciate what you do for him. Do you understand? Everything that you do. HRC ;-)
Posted to Why Women Hate Hillary
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Oh you silly anti-war protesters! The word is "evolved", not "flip - flopped". Check the newspaper, they got it right. But I absolutely love your signs, so creative and colorful! I'm sure you'll continue to evolve, as I have.
Posted to Why Women Hate Hillary
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They're actually quite rational "smears", it's just that you're not seeing the picture being painted before you. The picture is one of a woman that has demonstrated time after time after time that she will do and say ANYTHING to get her and her husband elected. She's perfectly willing to lend her firm handshake to help keep her husband's rape victim quiet. She's perfectly willing to stay with him, even after decades of infidelity, because she's dead politically without him. She's perfectly willing to change her position on the Iraq war to match the political wind, a united message to our …
Posted to Why Women Hate Hillary
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I would say tired of anything and anybody that threatens her beloved spotlight. Self obsessed. Not a good trait for a leader of any country, or any group of people for that matter.
Posted to Why Women Hate Hillary
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If he were talking about some social issue, like health care, Sirota might have a point. But with war and foreign policy, these are areas that are traditionally (used to be, pretty much) the domain of the President and the executive branch, at least after the initial approval for a policy has been given. The problem for the anti-war reps is that most people want to see us win in Iraq, even though their current opinions reflect a loss of hope. (remember just after the initial invasion, a large majority approved of our action) When proposals to cut off funding for …
Posted to Democracy Haters
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I rather like Glenn Beck, actually. He's a conservative, sure, but then many more people in the U.S. identify themselves as conservative than they do liberal, so what's the big surprise? I don't think it's accurate to say that Glenn advocates war with Iran, but he is a strong voice saying that we need to wake up and realize the danger that Iran (the leadership, not the people) poses to world security and stability. I don't think too many people disagree with that general feeling. They (the leadership, not the people) held Americans hostage for over a year back in 1979. …
Posted to Why Does CNN Suck?
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They were detained, not kidnapped. Otherwise Guantanamo is full of kidnapping victims. Yes? I would also remind you that CNN (and others) have shown video of 'detainees' on parade as well.
If you like "detained" better, that's fine. The difference between uniformed soldiers operating under an identifiable banner, and unidentifiable enemy combatants as it relates to the Geneva convention is apparently lost on you. The difference between the actual captors parading their prisoners (detainees does sound much nicer), and a private media outlet showing the fact that the captors are doing this, is also apparently lost on you. Last time I …Posted to Why Does CNN Suck?
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"they kidnapped British soldiers that were clearly NOT in their waters" So ... we agree that they have detained the British soldiers that were clearly in waters whose boundaries are disputed ? Yes? Much better, Natalie, thanks for the clarification.
Very well David, I was not aware that the boundaries were disputed. Regardless, it still appears that the Iranian action was against international law. Can we agree on that? And no, I don't think we necessarily know all the particulars about what SOP may have been in place, even temporarily, for those operating in those waters.I did not say that …
Posted to Why Does CNN Suck?
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What an utterly strange holier than thou post, Arpie, coming from someone who couldn't for a time quite decide whether or not his own govt used explosives to bring down the WTC towers. I'm reluctant to trust your take on saber oxidation and honesty.
Posted to Why Does CNN Suck?
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Heh Heh. Holier than thou? Now Natalie, surely you remember Im an atheist. I notice as usual you didnt touch the pertinent question; what will happen in Iraq if we attack Iran? Do you think we have a workable game plan for that? Now try and focus N, and answer that question first before trying to undermine the questioner. Betcha cant do it, and count on me to call you on it when you do!
Well so am I, hence it becomes simply a figure of speech now doesn't it? You come on and quite comically accuse me of peddling "snake …Posted to Why Does CNN Suck?
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Who do you think is really responsible for bringing down the WTC towers on 9/11, Blondie? I need to know this for my records. TIA
Posted to Why Does CNN Suck?
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Just as soon as the Iranians take American hostages again I'll agree with you Eric, that they really aren't "frightened" of us. My point is why work so hard to convince them that they shouldn't be afraid. If they were reasonable, responsible leaders, that would be entirely appropriate. However, they're brainwashed fundamentalist nut-cases and any show of weakness only emboldens them to carry out nuttier and more dangerous actions. CNN being mostly populated by liberals, and having a mostly liberal audience, presents news that liberals mostly want to hear. Fox does the opposite. And of course we all apparently are interested …
Posted to Why Does CNN Suck?
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Yo’ ugly mama, Natalie. CNN is no more “liberal” than Fox and most rightists like myself OPPOSE Bush and neocon blowjobers like you.
Uh huh, uh huh. And the towers?Posted to Why Does CNN Suck?
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Why does CNN suck? Because they don't emulate the fair and unbiased practices of their fellow journalists in Iran, who manage to print news in defiance of any and all govt. and corporate influence.
British Marines Enjoying So-Called Captivity TEHRAN (Fars News Agency)- "The first independent news source of Iran." While British Prime Minister Tony Blair still makes wrathful statements about the TV interviews of his country's marines, the latest series of photographs released by FNA display that British troops are enjoying their ideal conditions in Iran. Today's photographs show that the British troops are having fruit and coffee, speaking to …
Posted to Why Does CNN Suck?
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I guess that would make sense if polite, tea-drinking law-abiding uniformed soldiers operating under UN mandate and illegally taken hostage were in the same category as non-uniformed, fascist wack-jobs taking pot-shots at, and blowing up into little pieces, Iraqi, U.S., British, and other nation's soldiers, and innocent civilians all over the world. But the point was really just how unbiased and independent the Iranian media is. Surely CNN would improve its standing if it could manage to do even half the job these intrepid writers and photographers do. I think I've figured out the criteria the Iranians use for determining their …
Posted to Why Does CNN Suck?
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Actually David, I believe that the vast majority of the Afghan and Iraqi populations were pretty damn happy to see their oppressors shocked and awed back to the stone age. The problem arose when a relative few of those fascist wack-jobs I was talking about refused to share in that happiness. The US bears responsibility for not sufficiently foreseeing and planning for this, but let's not make like CNN and leave out this portion of the context. "Treating people with respect and dignity always makes sense." Tell that to people who truly need to hear it. Sure, there are a few …
Posted to Why Does CNN Suck?
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Different. As in completely fabricated and state-dictated as opposed to however a free media organization chooses to describe it and interpret it. Different is accurate, but far from sufficiently descriptive. Detainee is accurate, but far from conveying the full context. I made a correction too. The U.S. doesn't "bare" responsibility, they "bear" responsibility. D'oh!
Go back to the Mossad, your odor betrays you.
not even a million, much less six million he says. Odor indeed.Posted to Why Does CNN Suck?
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Thanks David, you are truly a nice guy, although I don't think the leadership in Iran deserves as much benefit of the doubt as you think they do. I hope you are right, and that they don't break their promise not to develop nuclear weapons, and that they'll see fit to enable the world to verify this. Iran's people are truly wonderful, as I've met a few of them who were engineering students of my dad, and it saddens me to hear about the oppression that apparently is regularly carried out by the leadership. I'm glad the hostages er..uh... detainees …
Posted to Why Does CNN Suck?
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You know Arpie, when you poked your nose into the conspiracy "discussion", and were trying to find answers to all your questions, I was polite and directed you to where you could find the answers. You were still confused, didn't know what side to take, and then started playing the referee between me and Joe. I continued to treat you with respect, I thought, pretty much, although I was starting to get annoyed with your jumping from one side to the other, declaring one round lost and one round won, and coming off like the smartest person in the room by …
Posted to Why Does CNN Suck?
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Thank you for your comments, Blondie. I felt kind of bad and discouraged, until I remembered what you said before:
"not even a million, much less six million"
...and I was comforted by the realization that you are probably 180 degrees wrong on your above post as well, not to mention everything else you've ever said. What an emotional roller-coaster.Posted to Why Does CNN Suck?
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Someone I admire spent a fair bit of his time with eating, drinking and talking with tax collectors and prostitutes so I am just following his example and breaking down barriers that separate us.
He floats like a butterfly, stings like a bee! Is that you, Muhammad Ali? ;-)Posted to Why Does CNN Suck?
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Gosh Arpie, I used to think you might be a somewhat open-minded guy, albeit suffering from a bite from the 9/11 conspiracy bug. You eventually came to the correct conclusion, but the point is that you even considered it a possibility. It goes to your willingness to buy into anything that affirms your now obvious world-view, even though presented with all the quality of a supermarket tabloid. It goes to your ability to discern quality information from ridiculous propaganda and misguided fantasy. Putting that aside, now you are anything but open-minded. Now you come off as intolerant and closed minded, someone …
Posted to Why Does CNN Suck?
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"Dont make my mistake and allow her to drag you into an ad-hom duel."
What's this about becoming "intolerant of hypocrisy"? Let's review Arpie's first post to me here:Hi Natalie. What happened? Did Honest Joe go back to the asylum? I think you'll find your snake oil is a much harder sell in most of the other forums but I hope you do try. Imagine the problems Iran could cause us in Iraq, just when we've got things going so well there. Better check the rust on our over used saber before suggesting more "rattling" anywhere. Great post David. Make …
Posted to Why Does CNN Suck?
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I'm sorry Blondie, but I'm having trouble taking someone with your POV regarding the Holocaust seriously on anything. You're the silly one, in actuality, and your rude and inacurate accusations are boring as well. I find it interesting how quickly I get labeled a "neoconwoman", simply because I, like a majority of the country and the congress at least at the outset, supported the invasion of Iraq. Are 60-70 some percent of the country neocons? No, I don't support invading Iran, and yes, I'm starting to sour on the Iraq war, as are many. But....I still hold out hope. I guess …
Posted to Why Does CNN Suck?
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No, it's not a religion, it's just one of the most studied and well-documented events in history. People who attempt to revise history, and/or to revise engineering and physics, simply have another agenda that this revisionism serves to (falsely) support. It would be highly instructive to see how many other posters here support your statement:
“not even a million, much less six million”
Posted to Why Does CNN Suck?
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UK sailors tell of execution fears By Christopher Adams in London April 6 2007 20:45 The British sailors and marines held captive in Iran told on Friday how they had been subjected to blindfolding, isolation and threats that led them to fear they would be executed. The revelations came as the UK moved to show that their detention was not the civilised affair depicted on Iranian television. Their dramatic account of almost two weeks in detention – and insistence that they had been ambushed by Iranian forces 3.1km inside Iraqi waters in an "illegal" operation – were dismissed by Tehran. …
Posted to Why Does CNN Suck?
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"The whole thesis of six million dead, gas chambers, mass extermination program or plot, Frank's "diary" etc., doesn't stand up."
You're a sad joke, little mikey, [at least regarding the subject of the Holocaust] and you're apparently so deep in denial that you can't cry or laugh. Your silly sources have all the credibility of the Globe, the Star or a text book on intelligent design. You should consider yourself lucky to live in the country you do, (you know, the one with all its freedoms being taken away?) because you'd be arrested in many for even expressing such views. It's …Posted to Why Does CNN Suck?
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Ironically, as I recall, leftist Ward Churchill very much shares your opinion regarding chickens coming home. I believe the reason we were attacked has more to do with the fact that the stubborn and non-compromising tenets of radical Islam are simply incompatible with the non-Islamic world, and indeed even so with the vast majority of Islam itself. However, I can agree that technically you are both correct to a point, which is that something we have done has pissed these guys off enough to kill innocents along with themselves in order to prove their (IMHO) misguided and sick points, and in …
Posted to Why Does CNN Suck?
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I contributed half a dozen pieces to the same magazine, Z, where he published his dreck. Three of them with my Jewish wife.
Are these available online, or would you mind reproducing them here?Posted to Why Does CNN Suck?
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Would some links or some further clues be too much to ask?
Posted to Why Does CNN Suck?
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Because I'm trying to better understand your POV. I'm genuinely interested in what you and/or your wife wrote. I'm fascinated by people such as yourself who go against the grain of what is considered settled history. Your confidence in your position makes me curious whether there could possibly be something to it. Please post the links to your work; I can't seem to find anything at Z mag by "blondemike", although I understand that this would likely not be the name you would have used there.
Posted to Why Does CNN Suck?
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Mike, your posts directed at me included the following, and the first two were absent me having said anything to you:
Prez of Iran is refreshing, his holocaust revisionist conference was the best thing to happen in that region for 30 years. Many neoconwomen like Natalie are still trying the old anti-A-Rab line even though Iran is Persian, not Arab. Natalie, if AIPAC gets us into a war with Iran you are not going to believe the reaction against yo' peepul that will happen here. Maybe they are not foreskinned but they better be forewarned.
Natalie, you are the same LYING …
Posted to Why Does CNN Suck?
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OK, Mike, my apologies. I apparently misinterpreted your post about rebutting Ward Churchill on the Holocaust, and your later statement in the same post about writing several articles for Zmag and others to mean that the subject of those writings was the Holocaust, and that the rebuttal was probably what you were talking about being in Z. Apparently your rebuttal to Churchill was personal, and your public articles were on another subject. However, the irony of your bringing up Holocaust revisionism to somehow rebut other well documented acts of genocide by murderous govts. is truly something to marvel at. I'll leave …
Posted to Why Does CNN Suck?
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Obviously you're talking about Howard K. Stern and his gang of creepy lawyers. Yes, they've done hundreds of stories on them. This Irgun guy. Does he have a myspace page?
Posted to Why Does CNN Suck?
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Not hundreds, no way!! Probably not even 10, I'd say more like 8, and some of those just got sick and died on their own.
Posted to Why Does CNN Suck?
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The Stern Gang was an elaborate hoax, designed to gain sympathy for the Palestinian people, and make Israel look bad. Don't buy into all the crap you read in history books!! Wake up!!
Posted to Why Does CNN Suck?
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No, you're not the one who can't grasp the obvious fabrication and exaggeration which was the Stern Gang. The anti-Israel bias of historians world-wide is well known. You can't believe a damn thing any mainstream historian has written about the Stern Gang. It's just crap!!
Posted to Why Does CNN Suck?
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I'm not saying that Stern wasn't a bad guy, or that some people didn't die due to him. I'm just saying that he and his gang were misunderstood, and that most of their actions were actually done out of love. I know that's difficult for you to accept, but it's true!! /sarcasm OK, yes, obviously I'm joking. Not meant to be a perfect analogy, really, with every criteria needing to be met, but merely an illustration of your rather selective embracing of the historical record. If you want to cite the mainstream historical record regarding the Stern Gang, which indeed identifies …
Posted to Why Does CNN Suck?
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Uh huh, like I said....not very credible or consistent. This Holocaust doubting phenomenon surely reminds me of the 9/11 "truth" movement. We are asked to take the word of theologians, computer programmers and various other "researchers" over that of respected and accomplished engineers and related scientists, who are responsible for designing and building things like the World Trade Center towers in the first place. We're asked to ignore the testimony of dozens of people who actually saw an American Airlines jet crash into the Pentagon, and focus on one person who described it as screaming toward its target "like a missile", …
Posted to Why Does CNN Suck?
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mrbruce, Is this lately enough? I hope you're not one of those particular types.
Posted to Why Does CNN Suck?
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Well, at least you didn't call me a nappy-headed ho. That would have been over the line. This is the same kind of crap I heard from the 9/11 chowder-heads. "Argument from authority" is always invoked when faced with the unpleasant fact that every genuine expert on the planet disagrees with their theories. What the hell do they know? I saw the collapse on YouTube and any idiot can tell that's a controlled demolition! Those engineers are all scared to come out with the truth, they're all dependent on govt. money. What about all the foreign engineers? Oh, well, those …
Posted to Why Does CNN Suck?
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Sorry mrbruce, I was unclear. I didn't mean are you of a particular type, I meant I hope you aren't so particular that 2004 is not "lately" enough for you. You asked if CNN had done any stories about Israel's nuclear weapons, apparently implying that they're trying to cover up for them, and I produced an article that proves that they're not. Gosh, CNN rarely misses a chance to portray the Palestinians as victims; I think they're really on your side. Does the name Christiane Arafat-Amanpour ring any bells? Do you agree with Mike when he says:
"not six million, not …
Posted to Why Does CNN Suck?
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Check it out, Mike!!
Posted to Why Does CNN Suck?
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Gosh you know what, I'd be highly concerned and mightily pissed. My reaction would be based upon my reading of the respective accounts which gives little if any legitimacy to the revisionist view. I might even turn into an Alec Baldwin. I would be mightily worried about my son getting seduced by what I consider to be vile propaganda, and what doors might be rightly closed on him as a result. I would also be disappointed and angry if he started falling for all the 9/11 denial nonsense. This view, if held and espoused by him, would likely result in lost …
Posted to Why Does CNN Suck?
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Natalie, I've met many of these "holocaust" survivors and they are invariable liars.
That's a jaw-dropping statement -- and one of the most insulting things I've ever heard. It makes Alec Baldwin come across as warm and fuzzy. I wonder if you'd like to run that line by the family of the Holocaust survivor who sacrificed his life saving all those kids at VT. I didn't mean it was you that lashed out, I was talking about your parents who gave you the "hardest spanking" of your life, even though you have indeed lashed out at me with vile insults* without …Posted to Why Does CNN Suck?
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One thing there's no denying: We're at an impasse. But I think I see an indication of your tendency to deny the undeniable.
I never lashed out at you with vile insults, I did call you one vulgar name but that was after putting up with your insufferable, lying evasions.
This of course is demonstrably false. Before I even addressed you personally:Natalie, you are the same LYING ugly old HOLOHOAX mongering whore and Israeli disinformation agent. Simply a repeat of your lying Iraq campaign. If you AIPAC traitors compound the Iraq fiasco with Iran you bastards better sleep with BOTH …
Posted to Why Does CNN Suck?
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LOL Michael P.!!! You're funny when you start shouting. But your 9/11 theory actually makes more sense than what your friends theorize.
Posted to Why Does CNN Suck?
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Of course it's easy to understand why holo-deniers and Israel haters soak up and adopt as gospel anything that supports their demented world-view. The "Israeli art student" story fits in with that. As does the nonsense about the USS Liberty being targeted with the knowledge that it was a U.S. ship. These are agenda-driven conspiracy theories that have been found to be untrue or dubious at best. A well written yarn by an agenda driven ideological chameleon is sufficient to fascinate and hypnotize the anti-jewish zombies. But there are many problems with his intriguing little struggle and stretch to …
Posted to Why Does CNN Suck?
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I kinda pity holo-minimizers and people who jump to unwarranted conclusions for the sole purpose of blaming people they don't like for something. And it's not some small thing, but things like murdering 3000 people, or keeping secret the knowledge of a plan to murder 3000 people, or deliberately attacking an ally's boat for no apparent reason. But, that's just me. Of course you've got it all wrong on "my" 9/11 "crapola". Many people "engaged" the ITT articles which poo-pooed the 9/11 conspiracy theories. I simply politely voiced my opinion agreeing with ITT and the rest of the sane world, and …
Posted to Why Does CNN Suck?
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Oh, so David's still apparently suffering from the virus. I guess I completely misinterpreted your statement on the other thread:
"I am very well, thank you, Natalie, and hope you are the same. It's likely the bug was a healthy touch of paranoia." -- David from Canuckistan on Feb 17, 2007
I asked you to elaborate, but you didn't respond. And on exactly what basis do you come to your conclusion that the British hostages were somehow telling the truth while in captivity, and lying after they got safely home??? I was under the assumption that you were a logical person. …Posted to Why Does CNN Suck?
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A "healthy" touch of paranoia?
paranoia: 1) a mental condition characterized by delusions of persecution, unwarranted jealousy, or exaggerated self-importance, typically elaborated into an organized system. It may be an aspect of chronic personality disorder, of drug abuse, or of a serious condition such as schizophrenia in which the person loses touch with reality. 2) suspicion and mistrust of people or their actions without evidence or justification.
I guess I assumed you were using the definition of healthy thus:healthy: of a satisfactory size or amount
Regardless, you still appear to be evading the central question. Do you still harbor 9/11 …Posted to Why Does CNN Suck?
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So it's obvious the British hostages were mentally tortured, and were illegally coerced and paraded against international law, not to mention being detained in the first place against international law. None of this of course was even speculated upon by the Iranian so called "media". They were uniformed soldiers of a sovereign nation operating under UN mandate in Iraqi waters. The Iranians seem absolutely sure where their waters were, so the argument about disputed boundaries really doesn't apply, now does it? By contrast, prisoners @ A/G and in Cuba are un-uniformed terrorists, who have very different rights under the Geneva Convention. …
Posted to Why Does CNN Suck?
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You know why I try to hold people accountable for their 9/11 kook theories? Because it's an extremely good barometer with which to measure their ability to separate manufactured biased nonsense from simple and obvious reality. Your continued confusion on the matter reflects extremely poorly on you, and I would urge you to wise up, as I mistakenly thought you had. No, you didn't clarify, you continued to evade, and only now you have finally made clear you still don't have a clue what to believe regarding 9/11 -- I would guess that's due to your "paranoid" beliefs regarding the American …
Posted to Why Does CNN Suck?
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Funny that in a post complaining about the quality of media reporting, that you'd so badly misrepresent the Plame case. "head of our department of counter-proliferation"? Wow, that's a new one. Of course the true responsibility for her "outing", if you can even call it that, lies with she and her husband, not Novak, who was simply doing his job by asking perfectly legitimate and pertinent questions regarding the reasoning and responsibility for choosing Joe Wilson for a mission he obviously turned out not to be qualified for.
Posted to Why Does CNN Suck?
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Hi Aunty, Valerie Plame worked in the nonproliferation division at the CIA, but I've never heard she was the "head" of it. I guess that's possible, given all the secrecy of the CIA, but let's just say a lot of people would consider that big news. But then again, I too am just a private citizen and not a public news organization, so who knows what I might have missed. Novak was against the war from the start, so it doesn't really make much sense that he'd be searching for ways to defend it. What's curious to me about the media, …
Posted to Why Does CNN Suck?
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David said:
"Thank you, Natalie. I agree that deciding which column the players should be in is difficult."
No, I certainly don't agree that it's all that difficult. It is for some people, like yourself apparently, but most of the civilized world readily understands the difference between nations like Iran and the US, in terms of human rights, individual freedom and opportunity, and little things like compliance with the Geneva Conventions. I don't see many people clamoring to get into Iran, except terrorists of course, and I notice that any fences that are built on US borders are designed to keep …Posted to Why Does CNN Suck?
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David you're amazing. Iran (and as I've repeatedly stressed, the govt., NOT the people) wears black hats openly and proudly. We get report after report from inside Iran about crackdowns by the govt. on people's freedoms, whether it's expression, dress, or the ability to vote for a candidate that is not necessarily approved by the Mullahs. They unabashedly take hostages against international law, including Americans for 444 days. These completely innocent men DID get tortured BOTH physically and psychologically. We have open defiance of the U.N. and the world community with regards to nuclear issues, and we have daily yellings urging …
Posted to Why Does CNN Suck?
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Another example of the black hatness that is so obvious and evident, simply by listening:
Top Hamas official: Kill all Americans JPost.com Staff, THE JERUSALEM POST May. 1, 2007 Sheik Ahmad Bahr, acting Speaker of the Palestinian Legislative Council, declared during a Friday sermon at a Sudan mosque that America and Israel will be annihilated and called upon Allah to kill Jews and Americans "to the very Last One". Following are excerpts from the sermon that took place last month, courtesy of MEMRI. Ahmad Bahr began: "You will be victorious" on the face of this planet. You are the masters …
Posted to Why Does CNN Suck?
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Frankly I don't know whether to laugh or cry. Blondemike says not even a half a million jews were murdered in the Holocaust, and nobody here sees fit to join me in denouncing him for holding such vile and ridiculous views. David ties himself into knots trying to construct a moral equivalency between radical Islam and the U.S., and Eric here apparently agrees with this unsupportable and truly silly position, which is barely distinguishable from that of Osama himself. Eric has done some crack research and showed us all an easy way to identify people. Simply google a name, pick a …
Posted to Why Does CNN Suck?
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My goodness gracious, Eric. Actually, you remind me a LOT of Arpie; are you perhaps two socks of a kind? Heck, you can throw wild speculations out there, why not me? If I'm correct, just stick to one identity, as I always have, won't you? Did you participate in the 9/11/Rabbit discussions? If so, under what name? Was it Eric Blair? I don't know, I don't remember. Let me make this perfectly clear, as I indeed DID specifically and categorically to Rabbit. I am NOT the Natalie Helbig that Rabbit pulled out of his hat. (or any Helbig for that matter) …
Posted to Why Does CNN Suck?
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Oh goody!! A 9/11 conspiracy kook reunion! What's that about a river in Egypt? LOL sob
Posted to Why Does CNN Suck?
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Could perhaps one of the reasons some don't have boots be because the incentive they might naturally have to go out and get them has been removed, and because any effort to reclaim their natural yearning is ridiculed and disparaged by their very peers? Ask Bill Cosby if you're not sure.
Posted to Katrina and the Politics of Disposability
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Many people are in serious denial of the fact that the sole culprits behind 9/11 were radical brainwashed Islamic murderers. Some so deeply that they cling to notions of them not being in any way responsible for 9/11. The movie "Obsession" takes a look into the disturbing world of radical Islam. You can watch/download it now on Google Video. The "truth" movement would do well to see this movie. After all, they're always saying they want a complete investigation into who brought down the towers. They might pick out some clues. ------------------------------------ Before you incorporate the arguments put …
Posted to The Good War on Terror
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Well Rabbit, at least you know Terry isn't a "right winger" now. I think I told you so. Whatever disagreements she may have with the decision to go to Iraq, and the contention that the NYT has needlessly and gleefully exposed classified information regarding our efforts to track and identify terrorist activites, I doubt she agrees with your fringe view. I doubt she agrees with Michael Moore when he says: "There is no terrorist threat." Terry? No politician in this country is going to get elected to any national office on that sort of stance on national security. I doubt in …
Posted to Thank You, Mr. Bush
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We are progressed?
Posted to Thank You, Mr. Bush
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Thanks for the preview, Doug. Six more short years.
Posted to Thank You, Mr. Bush
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Well Terry, Your critics have certainly proved your point beyond the slightest doubt. This "truth" movement is a religion. Or more accurately, a cult. If this movement ever makes it past an occasional appearance on cable tv or talk radio, where their main weapon of argument is simply strength of conviction, they will inevitably be forced to confront the cruel crushing weight of reality. (1 mb pdf) I understand your motivation in attempting to diffuse this nonsense. It's a major embarrasment and distraction, and can only undermine the effort of the left to regain political power in Washington or anywhere, …
Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement
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Natalie is our resident Natty Bat Vampire Shill, a creature of Darkness only happy when arguing for increasing use of DU, DDT, military force, a defender of the true PNAC faith . Yes, dear Frog, every major legitimate scientific study has concluded that there is very little danger, if any, from the by-products of DU weapons. Pardon me for trusting the experts. As for DDT, there is an emerging major consensus in Africa by African leaders and health and science professionals that DDT is indeed safe and effective, and needs to be reinstated, and indeed is, in an effort to prevent …
Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement
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Interesting questions, skeptosis. I believe NIST is currently working on their WTC7 report, and I'm not sure when the final report will be released. Likely, the questions you ask will be answered therein. A lot of strange things happen in natural, and unnatural disasters such as 9/11. I would submit to you that among the myriad of possibilities, probably the least likely cause of swiss cheese holes in steel is deliberately pre-planted explosives.
Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement
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Natalie’s job here is the delaying action, to try to get everyone away from the really hard discussion as to whether the towers 1, 2, and particularly 7, could have fallen the way they did from airplane strike. .....and jet fuel fire, and resulting content fire, and sagging trusses, (photographic evidence), testimony of "red hot" fires by police helicopters resulting in their warning of imminent collapse, testimony of police helicopters and photographic evidence of the bowing inward of exterior columns at least 8 minutes before collapse. Miles of testimony by NYFD personnel talking about the WTC7's imminent collapse, radical leaning of …
Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement
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No, Diggins, the firefighters did not say there was a controlled demolition. They said they heard explosions, which of course could have been due do a number of things, the least likely of which is deliberately pre-set explosives. What exactly would you expect the impact of 20-30 upper floors ramming into the remaining 80-90 to sound like? The collapse, and the sounds of steel breaking just before the collapse are what 90 percent of these people heard. The rest are likely the result of jet fuel penetrating lower floors. Are there any bona-fide NYFD involved the the "truth" movement? NYPD? Are …
Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement
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"Firemen, NYFD, said CONTROLLED DEMOLITION. They are on the video." Diggins, I watched the video. Not that I haven't seen all this footage someplace else before, just not put together in this particular DVD (for sale, btw!) Perhaps I missed it, but I didn't catch where the firemen say that "the building was taken down by controlled demolition." Perhaps you can give me the exact time on the counter where that statement commences. Now I know that they say a lot about explosives, and even make comparisons to building demolitions, but that is not the same thing as saying "the buildings …
Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement
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cicobuff, The buildings very likely took longer than 10 seconds to fall. Anybody that tells you that they know exactly how long it took is lying to you. There is ample evidence, however, that the buildings fell in closer to 13 seconds, and there is irrefutable evidence that the buildings fell substancially slower than "freefall". (9.2 seconds) Numerous photos show huge chunks of debris many, many floors ahead of the main collapse. The folks at 9/11review even say as long as 16 seconds. The 9/11 truthies are very fond of videos. Examine the video at this link (about …
Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement
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Rabbit said: "Lots of lovely complicated equations where various imaginary concepts are given a letter to identify them within the formulas, but none of the answers are anything which has a numerical and or real life counterpart." In other words, you don't have the foggiest idea what any of those equations mean, or how to follow the logical sequence laid out by a structural engineer. Don't feel bad, neither do I. But more significant is that neither does Steven Jones, or James Fetzer, or David Griffin, or Charlie Sheen, or even Bruce Willis. That is, of course, why I posted the …
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"The head Underwriters Laboratories guy said there were bombs in the building.” "What is his name and what is his exact position?" "You already fired him." What is his name, and what was his exact position?
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Could you just kindly answer my question, Diggins? What's so hard about that?
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Did Silverstein's statement actually state there were firemen IN the building? Could he not have been referring to pulling people back from the area below and around WTC7, because firemen knew that the building was likely to collapse? Has anyone in the "truth" movement bothered to attempt to contact Silverstein, and ask him what he meant, since it is somewhat ambiguous? Does ambiguity seem like a good thing to base a theory on? Firehouse: Other people tell me that there were a lot of firefighters in the street who were visible, and they put out traffic cones to mark them …
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Rabbit said: "Terry is probably Anne Coulter say some. What organisation does she seem to represent? It seems she might be one or other of the RW nutjob talking heads. Who knows who or what they truly serve, probably just themselves. Their own warped sense of what is right and wrong." A right winger writing @ "In These Times"? Not likely, Rabbit. But I guess it's possible.
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Oh, I see Diggins. You're trying to protect his identity so he won't get murdered. You're OK!! I think you're talking about Kevin Ryan, am I right? He had nothing to do with the relevant department at UL.....he was a manager of some water quality division. He wrote an unauthorized, politically tinged completely uninformed and ridiculous letter to Frank Gayle at NIST on UL stationery, so of course he was fired.
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btw i perused the paper natalie linked Diggins, are you a structural engineer? If not, you don't have the slightest idea how to criticize this paper. But neither do I and neither does ANYONE in the "truth" movement. If you were falsely accused of murder, and DNA evidence could easily exonerate you, would you expect the tests to be conducted by neutral experts in DNA testing and interpretation, and for the results to be presented in court by these same individuals? Or, would you be satisfied with tests and analysis conducted by Kevin Ryan in his water testing laboratory, and with …
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I understand the allure of this free-fall time aspect. It's pretty easy for average people to understand, after all almost everyone has dropped something off a high place. The formula for free-fall is relatively simple, yet it still presents a whiff of high-minded physics. And it kinda makes sense to people that the WTC towers shouldn't have fallen as close to free-fall as they did, especially when they aren't aware of the relatively hollow construction of the WTC towers.....tubes, really. However, people who are professionally knowledgeable in such areas know better. They understand that once that huge mass of upper stories …
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"This group is accusing nothing" Oh, no. Only that somebody planned and executed the deliberate destruction of the World Trade Center Towers One and Two, WTC7, and the destruction of at least a portion of the Pentagon, all of which could very well have resulted in the deaths of tens of thousands of people. Other than that, absolutely nothing! Professor Jones writes, it is much shorter and easy to understand Exactly my point, Mr. Rabbit. Jones is so far out of his depth that it's actually kind of sad. The pertinent fields here, Rabbit, are structural engineering and fire protectiion. …
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Honestly, Rabbit, you remind me of that tobacco executive character that Martin Short portrayed on Saturday Night Live. I can only assume that what you're trying to pass off here is that the "scholars" haven't been stupid enough to name a specific person. No, that would limit their options, now wouldn't it? Not to mention possibly opening themselves up for legal action. (Actually, I bet they have...we'll have to do a little searching later) There's no question however, that all these "scholars" have repeatedly stated their belief, as you have, that the towers were deliberately imploded, or that certain people were …
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Those structures were designed by the best of American engineers, to withstand plane-strikes and the subsequent fuel-fires. No plane without fuel, dear Shill. I partly earn my living by cutting down trees. Unlike a tree correctly analysed, the South Tower started faling the “wrong” way. Actually Frog, the designers have repeatedly lamented that the effect of the fuel was not taken into account. What''s a structural engineer doing wasting his degree cutting down trees? Dust yourself off, man. Here, we use calculators now instead of slide-rules. Has anyone here noticed that a really remarkable number , well over ten thousand, …
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"Tell us Natalie, does accusing Osama Bin Laden of 911 , without any evidence not count as an unjust accusation?" In most courtrooms, a video tape confession carries quite a bit of weight. But even putting aside the fact that he admitted it, and continues to admit it, neither you nor I have any way to know what information the government really has, regardless of the content of public statements. We have no way to know how much additional evidence and information has been gained through detainee interrogations, or torture if you prefer. You don't go around advertising the content …
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So I shall talk to you, Rabbit, about the story behind those events and shall tell you truthfully about the moments in which the decision was taken, for you to consider. I say to you, Allah knows that it had never occurred to us to strike the towers. But after it became unbearable and we witnessed the oppression and tyranny of the American/Israeli coalition against our people in Palestine and Lebanon, it came to my mind. The events that affected my soul in a direct way started in 1982 when America permitted the Israelis to invade Lebanon and the American …
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"On Boeing jets, the pilot can override onboard computers and their built-in soft limits. "It's not a lack of trust in technology," said John Cashman, director of flight-crew operations for Boeing. "We certainly don't have the feeling that we do not want to rely on technology. But the pilot in control of the aircraft should have the ultimate authority."" BTW, my reference to fuel was regarding the fact that the designers of the wtc didn't take its effect into account along with the impact of the 707 plane. I wasn't talking about the 2001 attack. ---------------------vv------------------- (content below this line …
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"The October 2004 video is another fake, they have all been billed fakes since the one of October 2001 and an interview or two." By who, exactly Rabbit? Anyone credible? Please post links. Gotta admit, you are pretty quick with those paws!! Hope your keyboard holds up.
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* In the history of structural engineering, steel-frame high-rise buildings have never been brought down due to fires either before or since 9/11, so how can fires have brought down three in one day? How is this possible? This has got to be one of the most ridiculous rationalizations that regularly gets repeated by the AQDL. (al-Qaeda defense league) If anyone can point out a time in history when a quarter mile high structure, of similar light-weight truss construction, was hit broadside by a near fully-fueled jet liner at full speed, resulting in significant damage to the structure, massive fire, suppression …
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My goodness, Major Major, You're just another squib video away from joining this circus. You seem to have bought into a lot of other myths, or at least distortions, so I think you might be a prime candidate for conversion. The impression I get from your post is that you think it's not debatable that foreign policy decisions made by the Bush administration are wrong. On the other hand, you seem to think that the possibility of bombs in buildings shouldn't be ruled out. Do I read you right on that?
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"The elephant in the living room is that we are not really obligated to answer all these questions" LOL, Of course you are!! Are you telling me that you wouldn't be outraged if someone accused you of a murder you knew you didn't commit, and proceeded to drown you in all sorts of circumstantial goings on, and then you were told by this accuser that he didn't need to answer any questions about them? Rabbit, just a little common sense would be refreshing. Don't you understand that the complete burden of proof is upon folks like you who are making voluminous …
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That's real substantive, doug. What are you, fifteen? Why don't you adress the point, and dig me up something that inspires confidence in Nila Sagadevan?
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While the titanic was sinking passengers heard explosions in the ship. In this case the "Official Story" would be wrong using the same conspiracy theory logic. To this day no one really knows what exactly caused the sound, only that it sounded like an explosion. Some say it was the steel snapping as the ship broke in two. Other say it was the hot steam engines hitting the cold water which exploded. Using Conspiracy Theory logic it was blown up because witnesses characterized the sound as an "Explosion".
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You're fourteen? Seriously? Not that there's anything wrong with that! Anything on the pilot/searching for himself and UFOs guy yet?
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Interesting theory, Major, one I'd heard before, although to be honest, I'd forgotten about it. "It is indeed ironic that the progressive collapse of the Twin Towers has prompted many 9/11 researchers to reach the erroneous conclusion that deliberately placed thermite "cutter charges" must have been used to bring down these buildings. The findings outlined in this article show the underlying reasons for this misconception. Simply put, thermite-induced reactions were largely responsible for the destruction of the Twin Towers on that terrible September day in New York City -- but the fatal damage was not from deliberately planted thermite charges. …
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chad, I don't take in on faith that the analysis by Bazant is correct, I trust it and rely on it because he is an expert and a professional in the field of structural engineering. Even though I don't understand the formulas and how they're related, I do understand his overriding point, which is obviously based upon those formulas, most of which I'm quite confident are used to design structures in the first place. And that point is: Once the weight of the upper block was loosed upon the lower, by whatever exact mechanism, global collapse was inevitable due to the …
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"now, please explain how fire from jet fuel, which is pure kerosene and cannot reach the temperature needed to melt the steel (as already pointed out by rabbit), still managed to melt the steel. and, since you seem to have forgotten that i mentioned this above, how come no one has come forward and made the simple proof of your theory and claimed the million dollars." Chad, nobody has claimed that the steel melted, or needed to melt. Other than a few people in the initial days/weeks after the incident, and only for the reason that they didn't have complete information. …
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Baltimore blasters 24 July 2004 From "New Scientist" Print Edition. (interview with Mark Loizeaux) excerpt: NS: When you watched 9/11, did you imagine that the towers would come down like that? LOIZEAUX: I did a report on the World Trade Center when I was at college and I knew exactly how it was built. I understood the concept. When I saw the first plane hit, my mind first went to: "Oh my god, what's happened? Is it a plane, a private plane?" But I was watching along with most of the western world when the second plane hit. And everything changed. …
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Rabbit, How does the NASA page about thermal imaging support your contention about molten steel? For steel to be truly molten, the temperature would have had to be some 2800 degrees F. The greatest temperature estimation gleened by thermal imaging is 1375F. Why is it such an absolute that thermate had to be what initiated the conditions that resulted in whatever was the true state of the materials under the pile, whether truly molten (liquid), or more likely in my estimation, various shades of orange/red, but still being solid. The only clear description of liquid metal...."rivers flowing"..... appears to be more …
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Don't tell me, Diggins. You're fourteen too. Am I close?
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Yep, I think I'm close.
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So what did you think about Major's "natural" thermite reaction theory, Rabbit? (I know it's not his theory, but the one he brought to our attention.) I don't think you ever really commented on that, or did I miss it?
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Major, I think (hope) you understand that my calling it your theory was only used in such a way as to illustrate that you embraced it, or at least you sure seemed to: "Finally, Jones' demonstration of pouring molten aluminum over a rusted steel beam is misleading. Aluminum reacts explosively with crushed ferrous oxide and concrete because the surface area of the crushed materials is dramatically increased and provides a much greater chance of explosive reaction. In fact, it's very likely that the chain of collapse was initiated by explosive contact of the molten aluminum airframe with the crushed concrete, gypsum …
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Dean, or Brian, There was a slow sinking of the penthouses in WTC7, which were behind the visible north wall. This collapse alone took 8.2 seconds. Seismograph traces of the entire collapse show that it encompassed 18 seconds. Only the penthouses and the north wall were visible in videos, 8 sec. for the penthouses and 7 sec. for the north wall. This 6.6 second number is extremely misleading and erroneous. The whole thing is WAY more complicated (4.5mb pdf) than is constantly described by the truthies. Are we to believe that all the engineers and materials experts employed by NIST …
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OK Major, That's fine. You are certainly under no obligation to answer any of my questions. I'll just keep......wondering. Yes, I'm very aware of the debate between Jones and Greening, and all about the particulates, etc. etc. I know that Hoffman's basis of conclusion is his volume measurements. Like I said....measurements from photographs. My point was that he obviously wasn't flying through the debris clouds with dust-o-meters that day, and has no accurate way of knowing the properties of that cloud, at least certainly not (in my opinion) accurately enough to proclaim that explosives must have been used to account for …
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She has been caught out on numerous occasions, on facts . The problem with trying to rebut that statement, Frog, is that your definition of fact is not simply that, but more closely related to your opinion, or your conspiratorial imagination. No, my job is not to defend "Bushworld". But I do consider it a worthy cause, to counter this incidious form of destructive, hate-based propaganda, which serves nobody really, except perhaps terrorists and Alex Jones' bank account. This nonsense can only HELP insure that more Republicans are elected, and if I only cared about that I would be joining right …
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The natural thermite theory is ludicrous on its face. It isn’t Major’s theory, you are a dishonest lassy at the best of times are you not? You don't read very thoroughly, do you Rabbit? "So what did you think about Major’s “natural” thermite reaction theory, Rabbit? (I know it’s not his theory, but the one he brought to our attention.)" Thermite is notoriously difficult to ignite as well. There is no point in running after such ridiculous red herrings as an accidental thermite reaction. I actually tend to agree, Rabbit. But somehow it makes a heck of a lot more sense …
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You claimed that there was no real source for the fall times of about 10 seconds. Yet your own source mentioned it! No, I said that NOBODY knows EXACTLY how long it took for the towers to fall. I said that I could find no mention in the final NIST report of fall times, but they might have mentioned 10 seconds in the past, but it was only meant as an approximation. I pointed out a video that shows first hand, the collapse from beginning to the point where it is still not done collapsing, and the counter is at about …
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mmmmm........depleted uranium. ---------------------vv------------------- (content below this line added 8/5/06) Before you incorporate the arguments put forth by the 9/11 "truth" movement into your daily interactions with friends and family, you may want to fact check them first, and consider them in the context of common sense. You will be spared possibly permanent embarrassment if you simply run your revelation du jour through the following before opening your mouth at that party, or sending that email to that friend who still assumes you are sane. --- Natalie, the Fruit Bat. mmmmm.......fruit 9/11 myths Debunking 911 Peer reviewed papers debunking …
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Thanks for your response to my response, Dean. I'll attempt to address what you've presented. 1) The final NIST report says as to heat damage to the towers’ steel: Of the more than 170 areas examined on 16 perimeter column panels, only three columns had evidence that the steel reached temperatures above 250ÂşC… Only two core column specimens had sufficient paint remaining to make such an analysis, and their temperatures did not reach 250 ÂşC. ... Using metallographic analysis, NIST determined that there was no evidence that any of the samples had reached temperatures above 600 ÂşC. (NIST, 2005, pp. 176-177) …
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pt. 2..... 3) If my oven were a) made of certified structual steel and its sides could b) hold twenty times there weight and it had a central core that had c) five times excess load capacity (as did the towers), I think my stove would not have collapsed/saged/etc as did the south tower after 56 minutes of temperaturs and loads way, way below what was needed to collapse it (the north tower collapsed in 97 minutes). Maybe a bad analogy, but I was thinking mainly of the trusses, which certainly weren't structural steel. If your oven had the WTC trusses …
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I assume you have, Dean, but everybody needs to read the final NIST report (17.3 mb pdf) carefully and in its entirety. They performed a long exhaustive investigation, gathered tons of information, interviewed hundreds of people, reviewed thousands of pictures and videos, and sought input from dozens of professionals in the relevant fields. They collectively and unambiguously state: NIST found no corroborating evidence for alternative hypotheses suggesting that the WTC towers were brought down by controlled demolition using explosives planted prior to September 11, 2001. NIST also did not find any evidence that missiles were fired at or hit the …
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Accusations of deliberately placed explosives being set off in lower portions of the building before collapse or even just before plane impact need to be tempered with numerous accounts that would point to jet fuel/vapors and their associated ignitions being transmitted down elevator shafts / central core being the more likely culprit. I gather that a fuel-air explosive burst travels even faster than would a shock wave down the tower, accounting for some reports of an explosion slightly before the perceived jet impact. --------------- 2.4 THE JET FUEL (tower 1) To the wings of the 767-200ER, the perimeter columns acted like …
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Flames and fireballs are not generally associated with demolition or cutter charges, so I'm told. I know thermite/mate is pretty sparky and hot, but I don't think it puts out big huge balls of flame that chase people around and sets off sprinker systems and causes a lot of soot: DHINGRA: Well, actually, I probably might have been safer, I don't know. But I had just gotten out of elevator and just made a right turn into a hallway going towards my office, and that is when the first plane hit, and I believe, not exactly sure, but the flames …
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"American intelligence officials, who indicated that they had obtained access to the entire videotape, said it appeared to have been made recently, possibly as recently as last Sunday, the date that appeared in Arabic in script superimposed on part of the tape. American intelligence and law enforcement officials said an analysis by the C.I.A. had established with "a high degree of confidence" that the tape was authentic. They offered no other immediate assessment of the videotape." http://tinyurl.com/ez8n6
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"Provided one ignores a number of glaring anomalies and a host of witness testimony to the contrary." Rabbit, what precisely do you mean by anomalies? Please give the three most glaring anomalies in your view. What do you mean by a "host" of witness testimony? Please present the three most powerful and credible accounts you can. Please be precise.
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That's real substantive again, Doug. But then again, you're only fourteen, and I understand. I remember when I was fourteen, but I certainly don't remember even attempting to understand anything political or much of anything related to world events. I didn't even know what politics was. You are to be commmended in the sense that you have an interest in something like this. However, you apparently lack the ability at your young age to discern between unbiased, professional science/engineering analysis and politically and/or profit motivated propaganda. Consider that distinction as you further investigate questions related to 9/11, and many other things. …
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Here's an excellent example of what I'm talking about, Doug. There's a story floating around the Internet regarding "remote control" capabilities of the Boeing 757/767. In fact, Rabbit proudly put forth this story back on page 2 on July 14 @ 11:28 pm. (to his credit, he rather promptly conceeded that the story was bogus) Someone poses as an authority and spins a convincing yarn about how these planes could have supposedly been flown by remote control into their targets. Actual airline pilots, expert witnesses if you will, disagree.
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I guess we're going to have to go over that remote control thing again.
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There are three glaring anomalies Natalie, three things which are so anomalous that no previous history ever gave reason believe such things were possible, nothing like them have ever been seen before and it seems that they are not reproducable either. All three anomalies are different, for they each have their own unique set of events preceding their occurence, and yet they are all the same, in that they all ended in precisely the same fashion, in itself the biggest single anomaly of all if they should be unified. The first is The WTC North Tower. The second is the WTC …
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Witness for the prosecution: William Rodriguez: Here's what the janitor said before an agenda driven lawyer and an agenda driven nut-job billionaire (@ 04:06) got a hold of him: William Rodriguez worked on the basement level of the north tower and was in the building when the first plane struck his building. "We heard a loud rumble, then all of a sudden we heard another rumble like someone moving a whole lot of furniture," Rodriguez said. "And then the elevator opened and a man came into our office and all of his skin was off." Rodriguez, who had …
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Interesting. Rabbit seems to think, for some unknown reason, that the posts on the airline forum somehow support his contention/theory...I guess that the planes were flown by remote control to their targets on 9/11. (never mind the fact that DNA was identified at the towers, the pentagon, and Pennsylvania belonging to both the airline passengers AND some of the hijackers.) 13 - 14 posts, presumably by actual airline pilots, (I'm not about to go through the routine to register, lie about my flying experience, and get access to these guy's personal information) including likely many 757/767 pilots, are laughing hysterically at …
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pt. 2/2 So tell me again exactly how these posts in this particular forum supposedly devastate my POV. Namely, that 757's and 767's were NOT capable of being flown remotely into their targets on 9/11, and indeed weren't. Show me some evidence to the contrary. Reliable, fact-checkable authoritative evidence. (sorry, that leaves out Rense, AFP, and "global conspiracies") I've already provided a link to a statement by an authority from Boeing who is willing to put his integrity and good name on the line, and deny that these planes had the capability to do what is claimed by the AQDL. If …
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So let's see. All this ranting and raving, all this name calling and all these transparent efforts at marginalizing, and not one of you has provided a shred of actual physical evidence that the WTC Towers were brought down by explosives. (oh yeah, there was that whiff of "thermite" that Jones supposedly found on some steel that some lady gave him, some booms that sounded like bombs, and those puffs of dust!) Not one of you has provided a shred of physical evidence to prove that the pentagon wasn't hit by fight 77. Not one of you has provided a shred …
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Can I get you to imagine just briefly, Rabbit, that there actually were no deliberately placed implosion/explosion devices in the WTC towers. There was only the airplane crashes, the resulting jet fuel and content fires, and gravity. If this was the case, does not the simple fact that a second tower (of identical design and size, when hit by a nearly identical force in a very nearly identical location) collapsed in much the same way as the first provide dramatic confirmation of the theory that indeed the buildings collapsed due to a combination of damage, fire and gravity? Is not the …
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mymarkx says: "As for the supposed 19 hijackers, several of them are still alive" And your proof of that is what exactly?
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THE ZOMBIE TERRORISTS The manner in which banal circumstances mutate into shadowy mysteries under such conditions is evident in an odd story that caused Mzoudi's attorney Rosenthal to engage in some speculation in court: the news that at least six of the alleged hijackers were supposedly alive and their voices were being broadcast live through various media outlets several days after the attacks. On September 12th, a seventh man supposedly contacted his father. His name was Mohammed Atta. Atta Senior, a Cairo attorney, hasn't heard anything from his son since then, and is convinced that he has been murdered by US …
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pt. 2...... The photographs quickly resolved the nonsense about surviving terrorists. According to Bradley, "all of this is attributable to the chaos that prevailed during the first few days following the attack. What we're dealing with are coincidentally identical names." In Saudi Arabia, says Bradley, the names of two of the allegedly surviving attackers, Said al-Ghamdi and Walid al-Shari, are "as common as John Smith in the United States or Great Britain." The final explanation is provided by the newspaper Asharq Al-Awsat, one of the sources of Arab News, which in turn serves as a source to the BBC. Mohammed Samman …
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OK, Rabbit. I suspected you wouldn't be able to suspend fantasy long enough to contemplate reality. Sleep on it, perhaps. Take a walk on the beach. Ask yourself this simple question, over and over: What if all those professional engineers are right and lil 'ol average Joe me is wrong?
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I’m really grateful to be able to idly speculate like this. Because at this very moment the FBI could be making a mistake that could obliterate my entire city. A mistake like going after tree huggers instead of after real terrorists. Some people have even speculated that the explanation is that the FBI might actually BE the real terrorists. That really terrifies me. I’d prefer to think they were just incompetent. Sleep with one eye open, perhaps. Stay away from trees as well, just to be on the safe side. You really didn't know that the "hijackers still alive" story was …
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I fail to see the relevance of the Amsterdam flat crash, wiley. Are you trying to say that because this structure didn't totally collapse, it somehow means that the WTC towers shouldn't have? This was only a nine or ten story structure, obviously of completely different construction. Firefighters were on the scene immediately, and were likely able to reach the fire, even at the top. Actually, the part where the plane crashed into the building did collapse, or so it seems from the picture. The plane was certainly going very slow, as it wasn't piloted by brainwashed islamic murderers. The WTC …
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"Rabbit would not be surprised if many of those passengers might have ended up as guinea pigs in secret science experiments or something." I was thinking maybe that's what happened to Jimmy Walter.
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"Even then it doesn't matter whether or not the nineteen patsies were in place, I'm sure some were or someone else like them. I suspect the reason that none of them were filmed getting on the planes (I assume they were not for they will not let us see any footage showing them getting on planes." That's the way it works, isn't it? One of your myths is totally debunked and the response invariably is: "It doesn't matter" Who's really operating on faith here? I seem to remember lots of footage of at least some of them getting on planes. Was …
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So why did the lying mainstream media tell us that two of the firefighters had reached the fires, said that they were small and controllable, and asked that hoses be brought up? If they are liars, then apparently firefighters didn't reach the fires, and the firefighters actually didn't say anything about the fires, and they didn't ask for any hoses. The firefighter in question didn't reach the upper stories until late in the game, and the particular zone that he was in certainly didn't represent the multi-floor inferno as a whole. No, the way it works is that when several of …
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"Oh, Natalie, I’m not presenting any arguments or “evidence”.......I was giving the other guys food for thought." I suspected not, but I thought I'd check, just to be sure there wasn't more beneath the surface. I see you were just feeding the skeptoids. Marky certainly gobbled up what you tossed him. Any more yummy morsels? Hmm.....that tatoo idea......I like it!! (for me, I mean)
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"The theorising about the hijackings is an entirely independent matter, from the collapses of the buildings, that my dear is simple logic" If these two aspects are so independent, why then is the theory that there were no hijackers so often invoked in conjunction with arguing for the presence of bombs in the buildings? Why is it that virtually all the truthies regularly knit stories of a well planned conspiracy, from the misinterpreted statements of the PNAC to the mythical stand-down to the invasion of Iraq, in order to advance the fantasy about bombs? Could it be, perhaps, because it's so …
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Why do you even try to twist Wiley’s words to be some sort of neutrality or support for you even? You know the Witch is ours..... I really didn't mean to say that I thought wiley was in any way aligned with the opinion of every relevant expert in the world, or me. You so easlily misinterpret things. But then again, and perhaps I've forgotten or missed it, what exactly is wiley's position on bombs in the buildings, and whether or not people on the current FBI's list are still alive? wiley? Cards on the table?
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Peter Meyer (he's the LDS....er.....LSD guy) Re: No commercial airliners in 9/11 incidents Interview w/ Gerard Holmgren You appear to have a clear-cut picture, and are prepared to debate your opinion, so it is very kind of you to provide answers to some simple questions..... ......At the scene of the Pentagon incident was there any evidence at all which indicated that a commercial aircraft was involved? No. In fact the damage to the building shows that its impossible for an aircraft of any significant size to have been involved........ ......... And the footage shown retrospectively which appeared to show the …
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What you're again saying Rabbit, using way more words than are necessary, is that it doesn't matter that Gerard Holmgren is a certifiable nut. (or perhaps, crazy like a fox, and just out to make some extra cash for a retirement motor home) You make a false assumption about his "satire" piece, because although he writes it from an info-tainment "turn the tables" perspective, he is conveying non-the-less what he appears to actually believe. He actually believes that there were no hijackers. Or he actually believes that the planes were not the designated commercial airlilners we all saw that day, but …
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howler, read this page for a perspective you've probably not encountered on all the "truthie" sites you've visited. Ask yourself: Why haven't I heard this perspective if the "truthie" sites are simply searching so diligently for the truth, as their names so often imply? And why are so many of the quotes I read on those sites consistently taken out of context, as I can plainly see now after reading them in full? Would this be consistent with searching for the full truth?
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Natalie’s rules for acceptance of testimony. 1) Anybody who is a Bush hater has an interest in lying and cannot be believed. Not so. In fact, most of the growing number of 9/11 truth de-bunking sites are done by people who are not fans of Bush. Now, if you can point me to someone who is a fan of Bush, who likes him and approves of his foreign policy, and also supports bombs in the buildings and missiles in Pentagons, then you might have half a leg to stand on here. In fact, the site linked to in my previous …
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Again, for illustration: Chris Bollyn, who's "journalism" is often published by AFP and Rense, manufactured this: No evidence has been produced to support the theory that the burning jet fuel and secondary fires "attacking the questionably fireproofed lightweight trusses and load-bearing columns directly caused the collapses," Manning wrote, adding that the collapses occurred "in an alarmingly short time." From the original: "However, respected members of the fire protection engineering community are beginning to raise red flags, and a resonating theory has emerged: The structural damage from the planes and the explosive ignition of jet fuel in themselves were not enough to …
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mymarkx, I was checking out your collection of supposed experts on the events of 9/11. Notably absent were the professions of structural, civil, and fire engineering. I saw nobody represented that was actually at the pentagon crash site, or any of the dozens of people that saw an American Airlines jet pass overhead and crash into the pentagon. There was nobody there to represent the forensic teams that found DNA from passengers and some of the hijackers in the wreckage at the wtc, the Pentagon, and that Penn. field. Why not? I was interested in what Daniel Ellsberg had to say, …
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OK Marky, 1) State the name of a certified structural engineer who is a member of "scholars" for 9/11 truth. Link me to him and verification of his credentials. 2) Whatever some cameraman happened to be able to shoot, I was talking about some of the first responders....firefighters, rescue personnel, etc. Why no interviews or quotes from them? Why nothing like this: Blast expert Allyn E. Kilsheimer was the first structural engineer to arrive at the Pentagon after the crash and helped coordinate the emergency response. "It was absolutely a plane, and I'll tell you why," says Kilsheimer, CEO of KCE …
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1) No way. Do your own googling. Translation: Marky knows there's no structural engineers at scholars. 2) You asked for somebody who “was actually at the Pentagon crash site.” You didn’t say that if he was a mainstream media reporter who also filmed what he saw it wouldn’t count. Fine. What reporter are you talking about and what did he photograph or report? Kilsheimer says he saw “the marks of the plane wing on the face of the building,” but since the hole is too small for the wings to have entered the building, why weren’t they on the lawn? In …
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Uh, Rabbit, the times set out in the NIST report are within 4 or 5 seconds of the seismographic data. You don't set your watch from a seismograph. I did notice from the data, however, that the WTC7 event took 18 seconds total, not 6.6. That's obviously subject to being off by a few seconds, because they've got one of the towers collapsing in 8 seconds. Like I said, don't set your watch. The technicians at the station in question are outraged that truthies have distorted and misconstrued their data time and time again, in order to manufacture a scenerio that …
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There ya go guys. One of the most basic planks of your faith pulled right out from under you. "The Great and Powerful Oz does proclaim that the World Trade Center towers came down in an identical fashion to a controlled demolition." Dorothy shudders in fear. But Toto stealthily unties the Gordian knot with his small but precise little teeth, down comes the curtain, and the skeptoid is exposed as a supreme fraud. Red faced with embarrassment, he continues to bluster briefly, and then reluctantly comes to accept that the reality he created in his own mind was only there. …
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Rabbit, FACT:"There is no scientific basis for the conclusion that explosions brought down the towers," Lerner-Lam tells PM. "That representation of our work is categorically incorrect and not in context." The witnesses had the bombs in the basements about 4-5 seconds before the plane impacts. What witnesses, exactly? We've explored Rodriguez, and found his testimony to be tainted by ulterior motivations, and of course by the fact that he could well have been mistaken about what and when he thought he heard and what its source was. But who else? There must have been dozens of people in the vicinity …
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We have not explored Rodriguez and found him to be tainted by ulterior motives! and his testimony is backed by another fourteen people you dribbling bimbo. Where is this testimony? I'm genuinely interested in examining it.
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Rabbit, Is it not rather sophomoric to suggest that some LSD using computer programmer is qualified to debunk the seismic/geologic experts at Lamont-Doherty?, who flat-out state: "There is no scientific basis for the conclusion that explosions brought down the towers," Lerner-Lam tells PM. "That representation of our work is categorically incorrect and not in context." Are you really this naive, or are you just playing some sort of cool game? Are you really gullible enough to buy into this hair-brained straw-grasping assertion that seismic readings and radar data are accurate and sensitive enough not only to compare timing down to …
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And so does this guy.
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No marx, I'm afraid I was being sarcastic. Rabbit's site relies on long ago debunked rumors, and 9/11myths is responsible for doing just that. Got it? As you were.
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Thank you for not only helping to make my point, Rabbit, but for driving it home as well. The Popular Mechanics article was dismissed by you and others for bringing up strawman arguments, but then you proceeded to argue against each and every one of them that I listed. Here is how you responded to my first bringing up the PM article back on Oct. 9, 2005: "Rabbit read the Popular Mechanic article when it first came out, and independantly came to all the same conclusions as follows: The most obvious thing to Rabbit was that most of the "Alternative …
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"I think even Natalie is ashamed of you just quietly." Such is hardly the case.
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I'm amused that the "truth" movement continues to refuse to come out and just ask the questions that are really on their minds in their polls: Do you believe that the WTC towers were brought down deliberately by explosives planted by the government? Do you believe that there really were no hijackers? Or if there were, did they collaborate with government blasters to do a double whammy on the towers? Do you believe that a missile or some other type of plane hit the pentagon, and not the American Airlines jet? Obviously, they don't think their brainwashing operation has had sufficient …
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Rabbit, I think you're under an extremely false impression that your irrelevant emotional rants and your supermarket tabloid links are persuasive to anyone but the most gullible and unsophisticated consumers of news and information. You go on and on about this supposed mountain of iron-clad "evidence" you compiled and flooded us with at the beginning of this thread. I went back, just for the heck of it, and read through it. As I suspected, it's simply the same old collection of long ago debunked myths and distortions by the same old crowd of deliberately dissembling Internet con-artists. Do these folks really …
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A little lesson in common sense, marx. Averages of scientifically conducted national Presidential approval polls between now and the start of the year, for instance, have varied between 38 and 45% approving of Bush. Now you want to find meaning in an unscientific Internet poll that says that nearly 90% want him impeached? Does that make even the slightest bit of sense to you? I hope not. This is but another small example of mistaking biased manipulated data for the real thing, and using inapplicable poll results to mislead people into thinking something is true when it's not. Freepers have banks …
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"I guess that's why disagreement with the unelected leader (the Supreme Court stopped the recount in 2000, but newpaper investigations showed that had it proceeded, Gore would have won." George W. Bush would have won a hand count of Florida's disputed ballots if the standard advocated by Al Gore had been used, the first full study of the ballots reveals...... You're almost as reliable a source of information as Alex Jones, Marxy. Congratulations. "and in 2004 the illegally suppressed votes would have overwhelmingly given the election to Kerry" Pure fantasy. Note that the newspapers didn't even bother with a similar …
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But now you're caught my attention, Natalie. You say that you don't approve of everything Bush does. Can you name one thing specifically that you don't approve of? I don't approve of the decisions made regarding Tora Bora, and I think a LOT more could have been done using U.S. forces to insure that bin Laden was killed. Serious anger on that front. But then again, I'm not privy to all the intricacies of the operation. Although I think he has good instincts, I wish he was a little more sophisticated thinker and effective communicator. I like how he sticks to …
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So let's see, I should watch "Outfoxed" to learn how biased the mainstream media is? Are you saying that FoxNews is now mainstream? I'm sure they'd be flattered, but actual audience numbers might be a little more meaningful compliment. LOL Don't tell me. You believe in bombs and missiles too. How about the Easter Bunny? 70 virgins? I hope you're fourteen, Oeyrsenal. You would at least have an out. We're fresh out of fascism. Check back in two weeks.
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OK so let's see now.....Usama is innocent? ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR EFFING MIND?
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No such thing as Reagan Democrats? You might want to drop a line to Jim Webb just to reassure him, because he sure seems to be wasting a lot of time and ink trying to get their votes back. I don't know if I fit the classic description of "Reagan Democrat" perfectly. Perhaps a better description of my realignment would be someone who belatedly realized what a complete failure the presidency of Jimmy Carter was, and just what a dictator-appeasing pacifist fool he was. Contrasting his world view with Reagan's, viewed through the prism of historical events, and it was …
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Yes, WTH, we are talking about the same Jim Webb, who just might unseat George Allen this fall. He wrote an editorial in Feb04., that was far from kind to either candidate. I think the book has been pretty much closed on Kerry, however it will take many more years to determine whether the Iraq decision was dumb, brilliant, or a toss-up. A lot's happened since he wrote this editorial, both good and bad. Yes, I tend to agree that a bigger force might have been advisable, but perhaps Frog is right in that it wouldn't have been possible. …
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Yeah, marx, I saw the sideshow on CSPAN. Reminded me of a Star Trek convention. Captain Kirk, Captain Kirk!!! Yes, son, calm down. Do you think the military has any plans to finally implement photon torpedo technology, like on the Enterprise? uhh....I don't have any information on that, son. Next?? It was disturbing to see that punk Avery promoting his loose change propaganda film. I would have liked to see some mole in the audience stand up with a big banner that said: WWW.LOLLOOSECHANGE.CO.NR
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Micro-nukes is it now Rabbit? You might be on to something there. There was that 600% percent increase in lung cancer rates just this year that you alerted us to earlier on another thread. That would coincide perfectly with the latency factor and the massive amount of radioactive dust that would have been spread across the nation on 9/11.
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Of course since he died in 2002 Here's hoping you're right, Rabbit. There's a first time for everything!
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Perhaps when you are sitting in that cell, provided for you by the war crimes tribunals You've got a talent for getting things ass-backwards, Rabbit, almost as highly developed as marky-marx's. It's Saddam who's sitting on trial for war crimes, and crimes against humanity, and regardless of how they feel about Americans in their country, the Iraqi people (minus the ones who lost their cushy jobs murdering the majority) seem pretty happy about it.
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Is this an example of selective reasoning? No, it's an example of you not recognizing satire. Perhaps another cup of coffee. sat-ire n. Irony, sarcasm, or caustic wit used to attack or expose folly, vice, or stupidity.
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Did you read the OBL link? Is that a dumb question? Give it a shot, some real information could do wonders for your comprehension. "real information" This seems to be at the root of the problem here. I don't know how to get through to you that the sources of "real information" you rely on are anything but. For the umpteenth time: Chris Bollyn, a frequent contributor to the many myths about 9/11, and also to the holocaust denial publication AFP, which you quote often and just above, manufactured this: No evidence has been produced to support the theory that the …
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Rabbit will allow you to remove it and pretend you didn't just do that to yourself if you want Batgirl, nobody will know but you and I. No, I'll not display the same dishonesty that Steven Jones has, in selectively removing the sentence: Rather, theory has it, the subsequent contents fires attacking the questionably fireproofed lightweight trusses and load-bearing columns directly caused the collapses in an alarmingly short time. from his "scholarly" paper. You're forgetting Rabbit, that Manning's last sentence there does not in any way, shape or form suggest that he suspects deliberate demolition. He suspects the fireproofing/trusses, and is …
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The Manning quotes are actually ancient, and I wonder what he thinks today. Exactly my point. They were written merely Dec01. For ancient points, Jones continues to use them in his umpteenth revision of his "scholarly" paper. Yes I too wonder what he thinks today, but more to the point, apparently Jones has not bothered to assertain that. Might that not be the "professional" thing to do before (mis) quoting him in his "scholarly" paper? What will you be saying if Manning comes out tomorrow and expresses support for the contention that explosives were involved? I assure you, he will not. …
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Hmmm......Why won't Rabbit post a link to Manning's blog????? Do you think anybody is not going to see through you attempts to spin these things. Professor Jones doesn’t say the urgent yet reasoned assessment of expert fire-protection engineers, as boldly editorialized in the journal Fire Engineering refers to explosives, he says he agrees with their assessment, which was in essence that the investigation lacks credibility. But what you're missing is that this was a very early assessment. And BTW, the steel wan't sent away by the "Gubmint", it was solely a decison by the City of NY to reclaim some small …
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Now Batgirl, what makes you think I won't post a link to Bill Manning's blog? Actually though, I won't. Just to annoy you, and besides it isn't relevant as far as I can ascertain. Translation: I was bullshitting. Your last little sentence is a sad admission once again that you have read nothing. Translation: They weren't peer reviewed by anyone but themselves.
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I made a mistake, and I admit it. I missed at the bottom of the webpage hosting all the exciting new studies I regrettably exposed, that they indeed have been peer reviewed, apparently by Alex Floum, Marcus Ford, Derrick Grimmer, Richard McGinn, Kimberly Moore, Robert Moore, Diana Ralph, Kevin Ryan, Robert Stevens, Lon Waters and Paul Zarembka. (Zarembka is that professor and fan of Marxist economics who was going to publish Steven Jones' report until everybody realized how ... well ... let's just say we were hoping for a journal with the words "science" or "engineering" in the name) In …
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"Just a small hint though, character attacks on people who speak out is wearing thin and I don't think it is having the effect you are looking for." Any talent I have for attack, I learned from you!! I thought you'd be proud. Waa. Batgirl, Fruitbat, Natty the batty, vampire, lying vampire, evil, whore, and of course shill. And dozens more. I even try not to use any of your stuff. Waa. I'm not sure you really comprehended my last post though, you might want to read through it again, and actually click on the links I worked so hard to …
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Call me a conspiracy theorist, but I'm suspecting a deliberate controlled demolition of the three story structure in Qana, Lebanon. I don't know of any time in history when a three story house has just collapsed like that many hours apparently after it was hit by something, we don't really know what. One man said it was not even a bomb, but a large cucumber like object. Since when do cucumbers cause three story houses to just collapse? And many residents reported sounds of explosions several hours later. There are too many unanswered questions here, and it certainly wouldn't …
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"Oh and Batgirl, The Israelis never denied bombing Qana, they admitted it and are proud of it...." And al Qaeda never denied bombing the Trade Center, they admitted it and are proud of it. But doesn't it seem a little strange that these buildings JUST FELL DOWN seven long hours after the initial stike, which failed to do any major damage to the buiding? It just so happens that this is the first time in history that a three story building has just fallen down for no reason, except for a few small fires. There is a good motive for what …
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Now here's something we hope you'll really like. -- Rocket J. Squirrel
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"You are also free to slime up the place and make bigger dicks of yourselves, without me replying since I'm not wasting time debating any of this with such human waste as you are. Mostly I'm making use of the edit function to "store" these posts for use on other forums, wherever ignorance needs an injection of the truth." Translation: I haven't provided a shred of physical evidence to support my ridiculous, paranoid, and judging by my Hezbo loving rant above, hate induced conspiracy theories regarding the events of 9/11, so I'm gonna create a bunch of smoke, thunder, boasting and …
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ANDERSON COOPER, CNN, AUG 1, 2006: My next guest, Jeffrey Goldberg, a writer for "The New Yorker," visited south Lebanon and got some extensive tours by Hezbollah of the areas under their control and of their television station. He joins me now. Jeffrey, thanks very much for being with us. You know, I reread your article from several years ago about south Lebanon. It is just a fascinating look at life under Hezbollah, and of the inner workings and the message of Hezbollah. I think what's been lost in a lot of this coverage is just how anti-Semitic Hezbollah is …
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"They don't hide it. They don't try to mask it in any way. They state very openly to you when you ask their exact feelings about Jews, which are quite extreme." Are you masking something, Rabbit? Talk about shooting one's self in one's foot. And you don't even have an excuse -- you're not blind drunk like Mel Gibson. Or are you?
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Unfortunately, Rabbit, the subject of intercepts, scrambles and such is way more complicated than that. Open up your mind and consider the intricacies of the issue. Cleanse yourself of the habit of jumping to conclusions with incomplete information.
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Kal, Thanks for your participation. I would be interested in specifically what makes you believe that the unusual theories put forth by the 9/11 "truth" movement are meritorious. What was it that made you go hmmmm?
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Frog, What is it that Israel must do to satisfy their critics? What do you think would be necessary to pacify the Arab population? Long term.
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You're getting warm, wileywitch!!
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Kal said: I have already answered your somewhat loaded question above. I see no point in reiterating the volume of interlocking evidence facts, reports, witnesses and scientific studies which make a most compelling case for the alternative explanation of september 2001. If the evidence is so voluminous, and so compelling, surely you can name for me the top three pieces thereof that cause you to swim so against the conventional wisdom. You say you're here to learn. Let's see what you've learned so far that has caused you to so comfortably embrace the "unofficial story". Just three things. Easy.
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Kal = Rabbit? I kinda doubt it scorp, because Kal actually seems to know how to construct a sentence and make a point, however wrong and irrelevant it may be. What I do wonder about is how he/she is able to exceed the 4000 word limit with such ease. Now there's a conspiracy seed for ya. I must admit to being a little surprised at the traction this silly movement is gaining. But let's remember, the fact that the Star and the Globe are also on prominent display at every supermarket checkout in the country is hardly an indication of any …
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wileywitch said: "Florida is getting warm, right Natalie? O.K.--- Howzabout Alabama?" Well, you're pretty much staying the same temperature there, ww. I'll save you more guessing by just giving you the answer: Ahmadinejad: Destroy Israel, End Crisis "And you would be the perfect mentor, oh Bat of Wonder, to show KansasKal how to stay at the 4,000 word limit when it’s time for the card stacking game." Now now, you've left out the part about my lengthy posts actually containing facts and logic and substance, and Kal's containing none of the above. But, Kal's new, and may expand in the …
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Thanks for the NORAD tapes story, wiley. Upon reading through it, I couldn't help but recall something I said last Christmas: " No, wiley, I don't find it funny that people were murdered on 9/11. I do find it a little funny that people seem to think that our defensive agencies can magically pick out an aircraft with its transponder off amidst a busy matrix of early morning east coast traffic, and in the case of Flt. 11, that they'd instantly and intuitively know it was destined to become a weapon of war. It seems not far removed from believing in …
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Well it seems that we've finally gotten a legitimate scientific poll taken that actually asks specific questions about bombs in buildings and missiles in pentagons. A nationwide poll of 1010 adults came back with the predictable result -- some one third or slightly more of Americans think that the government had a hand in 9/11 or intentionally didn't act to prevent it. But the more interesting part, to those of us debating bombs and missiles, is that far fewer believe in these specific phenomenon. The collapse if the twin towers in New York was aided by explosives secretly planted …
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"It is very good that you admit we are the truth movement. Since you are opposed to our even questioning what does that make you?" Yes, I misplaced the quotes, "Rabbit". It should have read "truth" movement, because I find literally no truth, but I have to admit you are moving. Just where?, is the question. I'm not so much opposed to your questions, it's your answers I have a problem with. Neither makes much sense, however.
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"Are you franchising on this one Batgirl?" OK, you're an anti-semite. We get it. To each his own.
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"Somehow I sensed that you would remember that, Natalie----the emotional appeal. How can I kick those poor, poor souls when they're down?" Yes, and I remember feeling these emotions also: You seem to have some pretty harsh words for a lot of well-intentioned folks who did a pretty darn good job of directing thousands of airborne people to the ground in a very short time. You seem to be unwilling to take extraordinary circumstances into account, and would have people acting like robots, even after seeing an airliner that was under their charge slam into the north tower of the WTC, …
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"I've worked in NORAD and on radar, Natalie. Save it for the chumps. Do I have any criticism for the unidentified perpetrators? Of course. I have nothing but contempt for any and all murderers." Even a chump can translate this coded statement. You don't believe that the men who were identified by the FBI were indeed the ones who slaughtered 3000 people in the matter of a few hours. In other words, you still haven't criticized the hijackers. You're saying "whoever did it". Nice dodge. I'm greatful that someone with such warped judgement and wrong-headed analysis didn't go on to work …
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Ok so let's see......there were no hijackers........ so why in the world do you feign such a disciplinarian attitude toward NORAD/FAA? Obviously, if there were no hijackers, that certainly points to an inside job. If it was an inside job, obviously there would have been some effort to control NORAD and/or the ATCs. Wouldn't it make much more sense for you to be calling for them to be arrested as accessories to murder? Surely you're smart enough not to fall for this "hijackers still alive" hoax. Surely you are. Is being an ATC not a reasonable choice of …
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You're spot on WTH. In a nutshell, if Hamas/Hezbos/Islamic Jihad/Martyrs Brigade/etc would lay down their weapons permanently and stop acquiring more, and maybe for good measure stop brainwashing their children from age two to hate Israel and later send them on suicide missions, there would be peace in the middle east immediatly and forever. On the other hand, if Israel was to lay down its weapons and stop defending itself, there would be a bloodbath until all jews were dead. If you don't understand this, then you're simply as deluded and as brainwashed as those kids. It's been proven time after …
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"Oh Natalie, that is so preschool. I am not even going to respond to that "oh so there were no highjackers" taunt." You're not going to respond because you understand that if you did so, and were honest about your beliefs, that it would render the rest of your post rather irrational. (You know deep down that no hijackers is ridiculous, but you're afraid to admit it in front of your Internet buddies.) You seem to think that it simply doesn't matter that you don't believe in hijackers. You act like this little tidbit doesn't make your finger waving at air …
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"Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah Natalie. I don’t belive in hijackers? I’m embarrassed to say it in front of friends? Guffaw." Well do you or don't you? Can we at least get a yes or no answer to this basic question that you've been bobbing and weaving around? And let's be specific. Are the men on the FBI's final list indeed the ones who cut throats, turned off transponders, and guided the planes to their targets on 9/11?
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"The question is not whether or not I “believe” in hijackers" You're right, the question is not whether or not you believe in hijackers. The question is specifically -- Do you believe in THE hijackers?
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"Natalie, I've already made it quite clear that I do not believe the 19 hijacker story. Rabbit has provided plenty of evidence, and so has a whole slew of people. You keep challenging the most elementary things as if you were lying in wait for some clueless twit to drop at your feet." Thanks for finally answering the question, kind of. I would be interested in specifically what "evidence" caused you to believe this rather extraordinary, world shaking, conventional wisdom shattering theory. And yes, a clueless twit has indeed dropped at my feet, and that twit is you, not only because …
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Qana, revisited ---------------------vv------------------- Before you incorporate the arguments put forth by the 9/11 "truth" movement into your daily interactions with friends and family, you may want to fact check them first, and consider them in the context of common sense. You will be spared possibly permanent embarrassment if you simply run your revelation du jour through the following before opening your mouth at that party, or sending that email to that friend who still assumes you are sane. --- Natalie 9/11 myths Debunking 911 Peer reviewed papers debunking the "truth" movement. (using Steven E. Jones' standard for …
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"I see Natalie is doing the fruit loop again on the 19 magic arabs. Were there some arabs anywhere to do with planes? Maybe, maybe not. But if there were arabs on the planes they didn't fly at least two of the planes, these were flown with a skill level far in excess of average. No planes or fires caused any buildings to collapse, with or without arabs at the controls." Many people disagree with this line of thinking. Some of them are actually pilots. " Now watch the morons spin this to mean Venezuala is dangerous and the bad …
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Nineteen Arab hijackers? Now you've got the attention of my lizard brain. Could it be from that statement that you're starting to accept their reality? ww, it's very hard for me to understand exactly what you're trying to say. Yes, I understand that it was technically NORAD's responsibility to defend our airspace, but I also understand that the 19 Arab hijackers are to blame for murdering 3000 Americans, and felt that their only responsibility was to Allah. Do you understand this, or are you still in denial of their very existence? (Hmmmm....lefties normally hate religious fundamentalists, and Jim never has a …
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scorp, great stuff. You illustrate beautifully my earlier explanations of why I became a Republican. After all, Reagan himself was once a Democrat. He was hated and despised by all the usual suspects while he was in office, but today he is near or at the top of the list of the American people's most respected Presidents.
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I know that truthies love videos, so I thought they might enjoy this one. I would suggest watching it full screen, for maximum effect. (or whatever's clearer, I guess, the damn thing's kinda fuzzy for reading text) (warning...graphic images and coarse language)
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And you have confidence that Arabs would honor any peace agreement for any meaningful length of time because.............? 1) they've never attacked Israel in the past 2) they have such a good track record of responding to olive branches 3) they are generally peaceful people, who never foment violence 4) there's a first time for everything 5) I guess it's not too likely
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"how ludicrous you appear to the informed majority." Actually, WTH is in a quite comfortable majority, at least here in the good ol USA. Could it be perhaps that you are the one who is misinformed? When voters were asked if Israel was justified or unjustified in its actions in Lebanon, 67 percent believe Israel's actions are justified, while only 21 percent believe they are unjustified. The vast majority of voters (68 versus 21 percent) understand that Israel is targeting Hezbollah strongholds and strategic areas as opposed to indiscriminate attacks. We're supposed to trust your judgement on who's righteous in …
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If you want to go on feeling so negatively about NORAD, wiley, then I guess you must. I'm seeing, from reading a lot of other accounts and opinions out there, and also the Vanity Fair piece, that if anyone was possibly negligent in the whole thing, it was the FAA, for not reporting the hijackings quickly enough, and the airline itself, who added to the confusion by being unable or unwilling to confirm things. NORAD did pretty much the best they could under the circumstances, with the tools they had. I really didn't have Clinton in mind, although since you mentioned …
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"Do you think that the wars on Afghanistan and Iraq would be justified if it were proven that Muslim fanatics were not the prime movers behind 9/11?" I don't believe it. I think he just admitted that there are such a thing as muslim fanatics. It's a start. Let's see if we can build on that. ---------------------vv------------------- Before you incorporate the arguments put forth by the 9/11 "truth" movement into your daily interactions with friends and family, you may want to fact check them first, and consider them in the context of common sense. You will be spared possibly permanent embarrassment …
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"Yes I admit there are such a thing as Muslim fanatics" Very good. Now, do you admit that they regularly blow things up, including themselves and other people?
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"Perhaps the question is do you---WTH, Scorp, and Natalie believe that there are conspiracies? Do you believe that there are theories? Do you believe that it is possible to have a legitimate theory about a conspiracy?" Yes, yes, and yes. There was the conspiracy by al Qaeda to hijack our airliners and fly them into American buildings housing instruments of capitalism, militarism, and leadership. There are mountains of evidence confirming this conspiracy, along with the admission by the conspirators themselves of its existence. There is the theory of global warming. There is the theory of relativity. There is the theory of …
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Truthies are certainly welcome to their opinion, and have every right to advance their ridiculous, unsubstantiated theories. However, when you enter the kitchen, don't expect that there's not going to be heat. If they choose to take their battle to the mainstream of American media, which they appear to want to do, they shouldn't expect to win with only weapons of deception. So far, they've successfully been made fools of on several cable tv and mainstream radio shows by people with very little detailed knowledge about the actual events of that day, or of the mechanisms at work in a burning …
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No wiley, I didn't say MSM, well yes I kinda did but I meant so far just cable tv and mainstream radio, to distinguish between say WKRP in Cincinatti, and some guy in his apartment podcasting on the internet. I don't think these guys have made the evening news with Brian, or the morning news with Matt. (Those are the big name anchors on the network news broadcasts). What I'm talking about is in the few instances where these kooks have made it onto cable tv and radio shows, it's primarily been just the host that has made them look …
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Again, wiley, your logic is distorted by your assuming that the 9/11 "truth" movement puts forth legitimate arguments. They don't, and that's why these shows haven't seen it necessary to recruit engineering "troops" to use against them. But if they keep pushing it, these shows just might. Some of the troops out there might get fed up with the damage to reality these guys are doing, the disrespect they're showing and the glib theories they're trying to pawn off, and even volunteer. I really did make a mistake though in putting forth the notion that the hosts made these guys look …
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"nobody denied they blow up things " Excellent!! Now, will you admit that muslim fanatics detonated a bomb, complete with cyanide, in the basement of the World Trade Center in 1993 in an attempt to topple it onto its twin?
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"If all you can do is whine on about trying to define some handful of Muslim fundamentalist violence with the far greater terror which is being visited upon Muslims by your scum, then you are stuck. You are lost and stuck and I'm not playing your childish games." I'll take this to mean that you can't deny that muslim fanatics indeed attempted to topple the WTC in 1993, and that you don't like the direction my questioning is pointing. Now that little stunt, had it been successful, would have killed how many people, do you suppose? This was a deliberate, premeditated …
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WTH, Be sure to read the comments, also. Mr. Davis gets in his little licks as well in this article, all the while talking civility. Yes, many folks on the left are waking up to the depth of hateful rhetoric coming from their supposed constituency. (sp?) Big MacIntel is here!! Where's my credit card?
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"Furthermore you slandering Fruit Bat you called me anti-semitic and I pointed out that the Jews of Israel are not semites and that many Jews don't support Israel either and then you no longer want to talk about that." Let's take a short 9 month trip back in time, shall we, to when Rabbit posted this: "Kaw Valley Kid, Rabbitreading between the lines, suspects you have at least read the words between Mouse and Rabbit. Here is something which might also be of interest. It is a perspective, a valuable one." Posted by Rabbit on Nov 1, 2005 at 12:27 …
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"Again thankyou to those who have seen fit to set the record straight about 9/11 and I must regretfully decline to engage the delightful Natalie in any of her seemingly endless paper chases." Translation: I'm preparing to engage in a real endless paper chase of my own, based on a bunch of baloney, and I don't want to be distracted by any kind of reality.
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"Some Muslim guy under the tutulage of the FBI did set off a dud of a bomb under the World Trade Center. That would make the World Trade Center a great target for another false flag operation." Spoken like a true conspiracy theorist, using of course the last and least respected definition of theory. theory: 6) An assumption based on limited information or knowledge; a conjecture A dud? Are you getting into the history revising business too? Here's our old friend Bill Manning again: The bombing of the WTC was an event of immense proportions, the largest incident ever handled …
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" The first thing you do when you want to try to knock someone down is start throwing out anti-semitic charges." No actually Kal, this is one of the more recent charges that has been made against Rabbit. The proceeding ones have been based upon simply debunking the myriad of myths he's put forth. The resulting charges would range from being exceedingly gullible to outright lying. He defined himself by himself. I only reproduce his own posting, never disavowed, which makes it quite clear where he stands. Do you regard the writings of Eric Hufschmid to be a "valuable perspective"? Gosh, …
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"Natalie, there are twenty car pile ups with more deaths on a daily basis than that bomb that was supposed to “take down the World Trade Center” (according to you). A bomb that is intended to destroy a skyscraper in NYC during business hours that kills six people and does a little damage to the garage is a “dud”. Yes." No, not "according to me", according to the bomber himself: On Feb 26, 1993, Ramzi Ahmed Yousef and five others successfully conspired to detonate a car bomb in the bowels of the Center's north tower. According to testimony at …
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OK Rabbit, it's certainly plain that you don't like the label "anti-semite". That is a very good thing. Perhaps the word has been over used of late, and perhaps it is an imprecise label for you. If that is the case, and you seem to think that it is, then I will take you at your word and offer my apologies. However, I'll not accept the notion that my suspicions about you were unfounded. Let us not forget that the whole country here roundly labeled Mel Gibson an anti-semite for saying things pretty much along the same lines as have you, …
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1. Protec technicians were operating portable field seismographs at several construction sites in Manhattan on 9/11. These seismographs recorded the events at Ground Zero, including the collapse of all three structures. These measurements, combined with seismic and airblast data recorded by other independent entities, provide an unfiltered, purely scientific view of each event. 2. In the weeks following 9/11, several Protec building inspectors and staff photographers, including this author, were contracted by demolition teams to document the deconstruction and debris removal processes at Ground Zero. These processes included the mechanical pull-down of the remains of the U.S. Customs Building (WTC …
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Indeed, scorp -- your analysis, based on personal relevant experience, has been spot on, and is a very valuable and much appreciated contribution to the debunking of these fantasies and myths. You're right. Probably nothing will ever be quite good enough to claim the million dollars. Sorry Brent.
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Hold the phones, people. I know this sounds strange coming from me, but there does seem to be some pretty compelling evidence for if nothing else, calling into question the conclusions of the 9/11 commission. If they got this wrong about the planes, who's to say what else they might have missed: "Get ready to go through the looking glass here, people," Stone told reporters at a Manhattan press conference before an advance screening of the movie, which premieres Wednesday. "The film you are about to see is going to blow the lid off the 9/11 Commission's official report and expose …
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"Jackpot! We write a few sentences, and Lagomorph goes off on pages and pages of incoherent babble. Well, that keeps him busy, anyway." Incoherent yes, but my question is just how is he able to exceed the 4000 character limit? Is that a function of the decoder ring I was unaware of?
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Ah yes, scorp, ever brilliant. Rabbit is a rather talented story teller, and is certainly capable of posing as someone who is measured and relatively polite. Two posts coming from Oz that both for some reason know how to exceed the character limit, a common trait. (In fact, I noticed Rabbit a while back exceeding the limit with a big block quote) "Kal" did seem very programmed and somehow phony, saying everything a certain someone would want him to say. And then, how easy would it be for him to contact someone in the U.S., provide "Kal"s password (I believe ITT …
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"For that matter, people can doctor anything written by adding subtracting or just plain making up fairytales and post it to the world." There's certainly no arguing with that, WTH. In fact, I'm quite confident that Rabbit's quote supposedly from Menachem Begin was just that.....made up. I came across this in reference to the quote: Dear Archivist, Jimmy Carter Library I have read an article by Texe Marrs that has the following passage: No Basis for Peace In his memoirs of his years in the White House, former President Jimmy Carter wrote that there could have been peace between the Arabs …
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Yes indeedy. I can see the captain now, eyes firey red and hopping mad. Looks like Rabbit has unwittingly provided us with good advice for analyzing the happenings of 9/11. The simplest, most obvious and sensible explanations are usually the correct ones. Of course. The editing function. Stupid brain. And here I was worried about adding my (not so) little sig line to some of my posts on page 1 & 2 for fear of violating the limit, so I searched for short posts. (But then again, they say 90 min.) I guess we may have to re-evaluate that conspiracy theory. …
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No Joe, Greening's article in fact seeks to dispute Ross, who says that there was insufficient energy present to facilitate the collapse of the towers without added help by explosives, presumably. Thus we need to correct Ross' claimed energy deficit of -390 MJ by +1517 MJ giving an energy excess of +1127 MJ, confirming that a gravity driven collapse of WTC 1 was in fact sustainable.
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No, sorry Joe. I don't necessarily agree with Ross. I don't have the education and expertise that would enable me to "peer" review either paper. Do you? I was simply responding to your saying: "it seems to me that some of Frank R. Greening's work wich you can find in the Journal of 9/11 Studies Volume 2 supports a CD of the WTC." and.... "I was saying that Greening's math supports a controled demolition" If you meant to say that you thought that Greening was actually proving someone else's point and not his own, then I misunderstood you. If you're looking …
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"WHY WOULDN'T SOMEONE QUESTION IT? Even if a person believes it hook, line, and sinker, questioning it honestly is still more responsible than pretending that questioning the sexed up press releases passed off as news is "outrageous". It's a matter of degree, wiley. Neither me, scorp, wth, or anyone is opposed to the reasonable questioning of anything. What we are opposed to are reckless and unfounded accusations of mass murder being thrust upon by all rational accounts innocent people, and thus being deflected away from the obvious and self-admitted guilty parties. Now if there were actually any evidence to back up …
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Wiley, Regarding your link to the editorial who's writer's head is planted firmly in sand along with your own. Quote: Nonetheless, I'm dumbfounded by the catastrophic numbers forecast by British and American officials. Michael Chertoff, United States' Secretary of Homeland Security, said the presumed plot "had the potential to kill hundreds of thousands of people." That obviously sounds a little silly, and leads one with a brain to assume that either Chertoff never said that, or that he obviously mis-spoke. Indeed, google news the string: Chertoff "hundreds of thousands" and you don't get any results of him talking about "hundreds …
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" What about the molten steel? I asked you directly now over and over but just as with the Sulphur and Molybdenum traces and other testing done of WTC steel, you cannot even face the question." ASSERTION #5 "An explosive other than conventional dynamite or RDX was used.....a nondetonating compound such as thermite (aka thermate), which gets very hot upon initiation and can basically 'melt' steel. This can be proven by photographs of molten steel taken at Ground Zero, the temperature and duration of underground fires, and comments made by rescue workers." PROTEC COMMENT: We have come across no evidence to …
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"The steel that was thrown hundreds of feet was the result of the pancake effect as the collapsing structure sheared successive floors from their internal and external column welded connections. The external columns were pressed outward, broke, and fell, damaging nearby buildings, including WTC7. This was described in detail in your xbehome citation under Assertion 2, "But they fell straight down into their own footprint.", to which Protec replied, "They did not." Anyone interested, read the details. But do not rely on Retarded Rabbit for information, or you will never learn anything." scorp, stop making sense lest you Byrne down …
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Joe, Do you have the NIST final report (17mb pdf file) on your computer? If so, then I would suggest reading it thoroughly. If not, download it and then read it thoroughly. It will answer any questions you have regarding the mechanisms and forces that initiated the collapse. Bazant and co. simply explain how once that collapse commenced, there was no hope of the structure below being able to stop it. (no thermite required)
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"Rabbit has read the NIST report and it is rubbish." Rabbit, do you even have a college degree in anything? How in the world do you think you are qualified to pronounce that the NIST, FEMA, Bazant and Blanchard reports are "rubbish"? Do you really think anybody with an ounce of common sense would go along with that? Gimme a break. There was no molten steel. Sorry to destroy your fantasy. Even if there was, how would that fact even begin to provide proof that there was any kind of foul play involved, except of course on the part of al-Qaeda? …
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Rabbit seeks to raise the fact that the publishing arm of the Presbyterian church in the United States has published David Griffin's book "Christian Faith and the Truth Behind 9/11", in an apparent effort to convince us that even the Presbyterians believe in bombs and missiles. Well, it's not quite as cut and dried as all that. Turns out that the leadership of the church, and the publisher, are a bunch of Israel haters, just like Rabbit, and are severely out of step with the rank and file of the church. In fact, it would appear that most of the members …
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Speaking Out: The Resolution That Put the 'PC' in PCUSA In its anti-Israel resolution, the Presbyterian General Assembly isn't speaking on behalf of members. By Yitzchok Adlerstein posted 08/05/2004 8:30 a.m. Media sleuths have lined up to hear what Jews are saying about the Presbyterian Church U.S.A. General Assembly's resolution to divest investment funds from companies doing business with Israel. But they have missed the more interesting story. The much stronger and greater protest is coming from rank-and-file Presbyterians. The resolution implies that Israel, the only democracy in the region, and a country that allows unrestricted freedom of worship to Christians, …
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Official Presbyterian Publisher Issues 9/11 Conspiracy Book Process theologian David Ray Griffin is among the most prominent proponents of theory that Bush administration, not Al Qaeda, was behind attacks. by Jason Bailey posted 07/31/2006 09:30 a.m. The September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks were orchestrated by the U.S. government, according to a book to be released later this month by Westminster John Knox Press—a division of the denominational publisher for the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.). Christian Faith and the Truth Behind 9/11: A Call to Reflection and Action is the third book on the subject by David Ray Griffin, a professor emeritus of …
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"Anyway you just ignore all this uncomfortable truth Natalie, you have some MOLTEN STEEL to face up to." Gee. I kinda thought I did. Are you unable to read? Comprehend? what exactly is the problem? Direct interviews with EYEWITNESSES revealed no recollection of molten steel: 3. In an effort to further research this assertion, we spoke directly with equipment operators and site foremen who personally extracted beams and debris from Ground Zero (several of whom have requested anonymity to prevent harassment). These men worked for independent companies in separate quadrants of the site, and many were chosen due to their extensive …
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"“EYEWITNESSES”. Workers who requested anonymity to protect themselves from harrassment from whom? The liberal media?!" No, not the liberal media. They're at least smart enough not to fall for an obvious hoax. No, the harrassers are members of the cowardly night-of the-living-dead truth movement: But Mrs. McClatchey's fame has recently taken a sour turn. The real estate agent has recently become a target of bloggers calling themselves "9-11 researchers," who are seeking to prove that the U.S. government was complicit in the attacks that brought down the Twin Towers, pierced the Pentagon and crashed United Airlines Flight 93. "The End …
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"This new liquid issue has me wondering why these evil doers who could pull off 9/11 are so stuck on transportation. Is it a Moslem thing?" UK Panel Asks: Why Do They Hate Airplanes? (2006-08-10) — The British Parliament, in a rapid response to a terror plot foiled by Scotland Yard yesterday, announced formation of a study panel today to determine why some Muslims hate airplanes....
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...Mark Bingham, a passenger on Flight 93, is supposed to have called his mother and said, 'Hi, Mom, this is Mark Bingham!' His mother confirmed it was his voice, but does anyone seriously believe that Mark Bingham would have used his last name in identifying himself to his mother? -- Professor James H. Fetzer, HOCI senior fellow House of Cards Institute
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What scorp, an investigative panel got something wrong??? Well, that can only mean one thing. 9/11 was an inside job -- the towers were downed by controlled demolition, the pentagon was hit by a missile. And best of all, Barbara Olson is still alive!!
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Rabbit, your brain is molten. Debunk that.
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Rabbit the STEEL WAS NOT MOLTEN, and you are stuck. You cannot admit it yet there is no dispute that it was not molten. I've got you Rabbit. CHECKMATE!
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Professor Jones destroys Bazant and Zhou in a few paragraphs I must have missed where the nutty professor had a stuctural engineering degree. I must have missed where Jones got his weekly updated newsletter-paper peer reviewed by anyone except the editorial staff of the Star. I must have missed why it's necessary to update your thesis every week if indeed it's so airtight and authoritative. I must have missed why Bazant hasn't felt the need to add to or correct the conclusions of his original 2002 paper in any way. But then again, I'm easily distracted.
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The NASA data is TRUE But of course the data from every other government agency that disagrees with your fantasy is "rubbish". This degree of selectivity does not indicate serious science, it indicates wishful thinking.
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I guess we're going to have to go over this one more time. The evidence provided to substantiate the claim specifically of "molten steel", or "rivers of molten steel", is extremely weak. The descriptions are either second hand, or merely used as literary devices. There are no pictures or video of these "pools", or "rivers", or presumably great blubbering blobs of goo. Just like in your sophomoric scenario about hijackers still being alive, there would almost certainly be pictures or video of such an extraordinary and fascinating phenomenon. I've linked to a report by a company who's specialty is working with …
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Your other claim to fame, the thermal imaging by NASA, proves only that there were some hot spots in the collapse zone a week and two weeks after the collapse. The temperatures estimated by these observations were at most 1300 degrees F., far less than would be required to turn structural steel into rivers. I can only assume that you think that if the spots were this hot a week after, then surely there would have been 2700 degree spots a week earlier. You have no valid scientific argument to support this assumption. In fact, I would think that a good …
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Hugo Chavez in Cuba.....Fidel lives..... Is that good news or bad news in your estimation?
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I like many others are content to allow the hopping host of a Rabbit to apply the salve of geo-political logic too your wounded nuckled nogg'in........ OK, I'll take that to mean that you think it's good news, absent you taking time out to explain yourself fully. Yes, sadly, it would appear that I do have to ask.
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Rabbit, Thank you for illustrating for us all just how weak your evidence for specifically "molten steel" is. Many of your reports refer to molten metal, which of course could include the aluminum that was in high abundance, the buildings having been sheathed in it. Vehicle engines contain large quantities of aluminum. I'm sure there were tons and tons of copper, from electrical wiring. Any dripping, pouring, or rivers of molten metal could certainly be attributed to these or other materials. In the other reports that refer specifically to molten steel, when you actually follow the links and read the stories, …
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Perhaps for a clue you should re-read the past six months worth of conspiracy theories that routinely use something somebody said to try to make it out to mean something else entirely, by applying their own standards to it or taking it out of context. Examples: Silverstein: "pull it" Manning per Jones: "Respected members of the fire protection engineering community are beginning to raise red flags, and a resonating theory has emerged: The structural damage from the planes and the explosive ignition of jet fuel in themselves were not enough to bring down the towers...." (we snipped it right there folks, …
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As far as the first relatively tiny seismic spikes supposedly not being caused by the plane impacts, what evidence do you have to support your contention, Rabbit? Do you know of any other full-speed plane impacts into buildings that didn't produce a seismic signature? Can you link us to where the scientists at Lamont are dismissing the possibility that the spikes were caused by the plane impacts? Can you explain why they labeled all their graphs to that effect?
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Rabbit I do look at most of what you provide, but don't recall anything by the seismologists talking about how they were surprised that the plane impacts caused seismic spikes. I found this discussion about impact and collapse signatures, and I don't see where they are surprised that plane impacts showed up. Personally I'm not surprised, seeing as how the planes directly impacted the core columns with enormous force, and those members were directly connected to bedrock. The second impact was somewhat smaller, as would be expected due to the plane not hitting as directly at the core. The huge …
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"SO (comma)NATALIE----DO YOU HAVE ANY THOUGHTS ON WHY OUR COMMANDER IN CHIEF WOULD NOT TESTIFY TO THE 9/11 COMMISSION UNDER OATH?" Why not? Because of people like you! Did you see my answer to you above? Why didn't Clinton and Gore testify under oath? They certainly played a pivotal role in policy that apparently allowed the plot to be planned beginning in 1998 and finally carried out. They were directly responsible for the FAA and NORAD for eight long years before 9/11, which as we know only occured eight months into the Bush term. It was their policies on airline security …
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"You ask for courtesy when you are the most despicably decietful and discourteous person? Go to hell. I said I gave it, I did, anybody else can find it, you will ignore it again completely if I bother, so up yours Natalie." Translation: I never really linked to any discussion (by anybody who knows what they're talking about) that expresses puzzlement about the impact spikes. Rabbit, forgive me if I trust the good folks with degrees in geology and stuff at Lamont over you when it comes to analyzing what should and what should not be transmitted from what energy and …
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So let's see.....the fact that some 90% of Israel supported the action against the Hezbos, at least until Israel screwed it up, means....what..? 1) That the poll was rigged 2) Israelis are all liars, and tell pollsters the exact opposite of what they think 3) There is a tiny fringe element within Israel that is an embarrassment to the vast majority of the country, just like the "truth" movement is to the few sane members of the left in America. 3? ding ding ding......tell him what he's won, Johnny!!!
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OMG, wiley. We're all just human here. I'm not the one directing blame everywhere EXCEPT where it belongs -- brainwashed Islam. You insist on blaming one particular administration for a mindset that had been in place for decades. Suddenly, you expect that our intrepid air control / defense forces should have instantly known precisely what to do when something happens that has NEVER happened before, and when NOBODOY was operating on a POST 9/11 mindset. Yes, Clinton deserves a substantial portion of the blame, if YOU insist on directing it OUR way. He was in office during the incubation of the …
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Lower your blustery bulloney smoke screen, Rabbit. You know gooden well that the COLLEGE GRADUATES at Lamont don't think that the impact spikes were cause by anything other than the jets. You know gooden well that Manning doesn't have a blog, and that you're just blowing smoke from down low. You know gooden well that your comparing the Pentagon and Penn seismic sigs to the WTC were uninformed. You simply ignore the geologic differences and blow more smoke. You know gooden well that Bollyn isn't qualified to write for anything but the Star or the Globe, and that he's simply making …
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"I see no reason to believe that Muslim hijackers are responsible for 9/11." This is your basic problem, wiley. This is at the root of all your confusion and misplaced anger. You're operating under a false premise that distorts everything you think related to the event. No, I'm sorry. Blaming the victims and making excuses for criminals is a classic characteristic of modern liberalism. Free Mumia!!
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"I see no reason to believe that Muslim hijackers are responsible for 9/11." I sincerly hope you're not in any kind of position where lives depend on you making correct decisions based on rational analysis. When you falsely blame somebody for murder based not on evidence, but on unjustified or even justified hatred for that somebody, that is the height of irresponsibility. "I see no reason to believe that Muslim hijackers are responsible for 9/11." Making excuses for criminals is my distortion? My mistake. You don't make excuses for criminals. You deny their very existence. I think you need a psychiatrist! …
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Christopher Bollyn has been a Guest on David Duke's Show a Number of Times Hmm.....two peas in a pod, to put it undeservedly charitably.
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There is video and sound of the first plane impact. I don't hear any explosions except that of the plane. But then again, I listened to a lot of loud music as a youth. I'm wondering also about the second spike. Were there any Rodriguez -like reports of explosions just before the 2nd jet impact into the south tower? I don't think so, but I could be wrong. This, like the first spike, is within seconds of the time reported independently of the actual impact. Is it really likely that these spikes were caused by anything other than the jet …
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"The work was the plastic deformation and sheering of Steel columns and all the sundry itmes like walls, desks, pot plants etc." I didn't know Cheech & Chong had offices in the WTC. The things you learn on the Internet.
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I'm sorry wiley, the burden's on you. YOU provide proof that the hijackers on the final FBI list aren't the ones that were on those planes, and aren't the ones that took them over. YOU provide evidence to counter the security camera images of them getting on the planes. YOU provide evidence that flight attendants didn't relay the seat numbers of the ones who were slitting throats. YOU provide evidence that flight school instructors confused them with the men who took hurried lessons from them. YOU provide evidence that Saudi Arabia is all wet when they admit to their citizens …
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Rabbit's heros at work, defending the principle of freedom from unnecessary information. USA: FOIA IRAN: FFIA
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Yes, we can all imagine wiley in charge on 9/11. Boys, don't believe what you're hearing, there is no such thing as middle eastern hijackers. It's all a plot by the government so they can take over the oil fields. You four -- take your planes out to.....um..........well.....just get in those planes and shoot down every airliner you can find. We simply can't allow Bush to get away with this obvious false flag operation. Quit looking at me like that! I like can't believe you fly-boys can't see this plot unfolding!! Bush's goons are heading for the wtc, both towers, idiots, …
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OK wiley, maybe you should re-enlist and go straighten all those dummies out. They obviously know nothing compared to you, and would benefit from your all knowing and all seeing leadership. One thing I'm curious about is this notion that there were false blips "injected" onto FAA controller screens. If true, I would certainly agree with you that this is a stupid idea. What is your evidence for this being true? For that matter, what is your evidence that exercises were more than a relatively brief source of confusion for NORAD?
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Wiley, I just carefully re-read the Vanity Fair article and I suggest you do the same. What I again take away from the article -- which is probably about the best look into the reality of that morning anyone's going to get -- is that contrary to what you seem to believe, NORAD performed quite admirably that morning, all things considered. What emerges from the barrage of what Nasypany dubs "bad poop" flying at his troops from all directions is a picture of remarkable composure. Snap decisions more often than not turn out to be the right ones as commanders …
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"Was NEADS just a lingering hobby from the Cold War?" There ya go. I think you're starting to get it.
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Wiley, I think your dismissive attitude is simply a whitewash to mask your weak case. What exactly is it you think we should have done on 9/11? Not what you wish we would have done, or that you imagine we would have done, but what should we have done or done differently given the mindset and SOP's of the day? You don't seem to have a case, quite frankly, although I remain confused as to exactly what it is. Everybody wishes those planes could have been stopped, certainly including the FAA and NORAD. But I simply don't see a case for …
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As to Presidents and oaths, I think you're under another false premise, that being that Bush had something to hide or had some personal reason for not testifying under the TV lights under oath by himself. You guys would have loved that, wouldn't ya Wiley? A simple error in speech or innocently mistaken time line mutates into a lying under oath impeachable offense in an election year. Nice try. Now you must tell me why Clinton and Gore weren't sworn in and didn't testify in open session. After all, they played an integral role in what eventually transpired on 9/11/01, and …
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3.6 ABSOLUTE TIME ACCURACY Many of the news broadcasts on September 11, 2001, had the current time imprinted on the screen. These imprints are known in the industry as "bugs." As these broadcasts were timed, it became apparent that there were small differences between times for the second aircraft impact based on these bugs and the time used as the basis for the database. Checks with several broadcasters indicated that the bugs should be quite close to the actual time because the clocks used as sources for the bugs are regularly updated from highly accurate sources, such as geopositioning satellites or …
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Wiley, I have nothing against accountability, preparedness, and competence. Your demands are not so much heartless, but unrealistic, and unfair in that you're looking at it through hindsight. If you can direct me to some of your writings before 9/11, where you layed out a case for preparing our defenses for mass suicide attack hijackings, then you will instantly gain total credibility and respect in my book. If not, then your criticism of NORAD and the FAA is disingenuous, and along with your not saying a peep about the fact that these policies were in place for a long time under …
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John, If you've got a specific point to make, please do so. Your sudden and rather arrogant entry into this thread after nearly 800 posts comes off as little more than programmed propaganda, and a plug for your blog that for some reason doesn't allow comments. I'm biased?
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Looks like Rabbit ran for the tall grass. He knows that there's no controversy over the spikes at LDEO, he knows the impact spikes coincide perfectly with when the planes struck and he knows there were no explosions reported coming just before the second hit anyway. He knows Manning doesn't have a blog, and if by chance he does, he certainly doesn't believe in bombs and missiles. He knows Chris Bollyn is about as reputable as a used car salesman, and if he doesn't, he's about as intelligent as a real rabbit. What about it John? Any Clinton "crimes of the …
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That's the beginnings of a great fiction thriller novel, Rabbit, but if by chance you want to know what REALLY happened regarding NORAD, the FAA, and the airliners that morning, simply read the Vanity Fair article. Also, there's lots of docu-dramas based upon real events starting to appear on the History Channel and A&E., as the 5th anniversary of the murder of 3000 innocent Americans by brainwashed muslim bigots approaches. The movie "Flight 93" is based on real events, as well as the movie "World Trade Center". Watch some of these presentations and maybe, just maybe you'll start to get a …
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Crabbitch, as you know, I am open to the possibility that flight 93 was indeed shot down. There is no question, however, that the passengers were either solely responsible for its crash, or were engaged in the takeover of the plane during the theoretical missile hit. There is simply too much voice testimony from passenger calls and the cockpit voice recorder to reasonably believe anything else. If the plane was actually shot down, how does that support the theory that 9/11 was an inside job designed to provide an excuse to "control the world's oil", or whatever? Wouldn't the shootdown be …
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John, thanks for completing our survey. You seem especially knowledgable about missiles. I forgot to ask about the towers. Controlled demolition? Perhaps I was unfair to label you as biased, although I certainly did get the arrogant part right. You do seem to be an equal opportunity seeker of alternative explanations. I guess a quick glance at your site was misleading as to the true depths and breadths of your quest for the truth. After all, Bush and 9/11 are in vogue these days. Who in your estimation was responsible for the additional bombs at Oklahoma City? What was the purpose …
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Natalie, the simple fact that there wasn’t a thorough investigation of 93 carried out and reported the way any other aircraft disaster would be investigated screams ‘something rotten in Denmark’. Wiley, what makes you think that the crash wasn't thoroughly investigated? Do you not understand the difference between a normal crash and a crime scene? Just because they didn't send you a personal copy of their reports, updated weekly, what makes you think they weren't done? Do you think every citizen has the right to see everything the government does, including the inner workings of a criminal investigation? Would you want …
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PS NATTY --- Nobody ouside the loop HAD to write about this at the time—it was well in the Public Domain, and the possibility was well known. EXCEPT to you and Miz Condi. So let's see...... does this mean that you actually believe there were hijackers? I mean, how can you say the whole thing was manufactured, and at the same time scold people for not seeing it coming. Where do you fall on the K.O.O.K. scale? What exactly are you trying to say????
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Just bringing up the point that Condi was LYING about this. Are you trying to tell us she wasn’t ? OK, so Condi was lying. Or maybe she was just uninformed. So what? How does this even begin to provide proof of an "inside job"? Does Condi seem to you to be the type that would sign off on such a plan? Would this be the first time a politician or govt. official has said something inaccurate or self-serving? Can you even begin to imagine the pressure that was on every member of the government to explain why they shouldn't have …
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Wiley, three words: Write. Your. Congress-person. Have you done that? I simply don't see any sentiment in the country for blaming NORAD and the FAA for 9/11. I don't see any appropriately knowledgeable person endorsing the views of the "truth" movement. Why is that I'm defined as such a fringe outsider in your book? Why is that you're so intelligent, and the vast majority of the public is so damn stupid? Why are computer programmers, website designers, radio talk show hosts, waterboys, janitors, historians, theologians and holocaust deniers right, while structural, civil, and fire engineers, firemen, airline pilots and demolition experts …
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If we had listened to guys like these instead of Rumsfeld we would not be in such a mess. Indeed. However, most sane members of the government were at least aware that there was a threat, and were at least attempting to understand it and counter it. There was heightened security at airports, and there was a major effort to decipher the where and when of a possible attack, both during the Clinton and Bush administrations. Folks like Frog, Rabbit, Wileywitch, John doe and Michael Moore are of the mindset: "There is no terrorist threat in this country. This is a …
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Joe, I can't help but notice that you've gone from arguing that the towers were purposefully imploded, to arguing that we should have been able to stop the hijackers. If the towers were purposefully imploded, surely the event would have had to be coordinated with the hijackings. Why in the world would the gubmint even have wanted to stop the attacks? What possible sense does it make to whine about inaction on the part of the Bush administration? What's up with that?
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I dont think people are saying that there where no hijackers at all. A small, small bit of progress. There saying that they dont belive the hijackers where controled by or funded by or assisted by Osama bin Laden Now why in the world would they think that, when there's no evidence for it? (oh yeah, some of them actually think a missile hit the pentagon, my bad) Why in the world would bin Laden himself claim credit for the attacks if he were innocent? Does he have John Mark Karr syndrome? But where controled, funded, and assisted by a criminal …
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Of course the towers came down in a controled demolition. I should have known better than to commit blasphemy. Of course they did. I was just pointing out obvious red flags [you cant call them all mistakes] about our Itelligence agencies. By the way why has Osama still not been indicted for 9/11 and why does the FBI still not have the evidence to at least get an indictement? Now what makes you think you necessarily know everything the FBI knows? What makes you think there isn't a sealed indictment against him? What makes you think you can believe everything you …
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Rabbit sez: A full and independent investigation, needs to be carried out imediately. By whom, Rabbit. Surely the gubmint can't be involved, since they are all shills and liars. Are there going to be any structual engineers invited to attend the investigation? Firemen? Bill Manning? Representatives of the demolition industry? I've asked you several times to outline the format of such an investigation. Can you do it?
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Except for the truly desperate, you are merely making Rabbit, Frog, and others look like grown-ups next to you. A small, small bit of progress. Where's my chart? Perhaps if they grow up, they'll develop the ability to distinguish legitimate scientific and engineering analysis from supermarket tabloid bulloney.
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Somehow I have a hard time taking seriously all these negative views on America's role in the world, all these indictments against the CIA as if they were a gang of thugs that murdered simply for fun or profit, and somehow took part in, or allowed to happen, 9/11. Somehow I have a hard time taking seriously these kinds of conclusions coming from people who believe the WTC towers were brought down by "controlled demolition", the Pentagon was hit by a missile, and the hijackers are still alive. All these things have been proven dead wrong beyond a shadow of a …
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And stop giving your imagination so much credit. It doesn’t deserve that much credit. I'm not the one imagining things, Wiley. You are, when you literally invent a new role for NORAD and the FAA after the fact, and when you and others see a controlled demolition in a grainy video of towers collapsing due to nothing more than damage, fire, and gravity. You're imagining that your view is somehow in the majority when a mere 6% of people are sure that controlled demolition took down the towers. 16% of people are sure there are space aliens. Are you one of …
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All right, Joe!!! Quoting my Sowell brother!! "“There are few things more dishonorable than misleading the young.” -- Thomas Sowell I would add misleading the middle aged as well. That's directed at you, 9/11 "truth" movement. Sowell on the NSA, as if on cue
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You're really going to have to decide which path you're going to go down here truthies, because as the old saying goes, you can't have it both ways. If you think 9/11 was an inside job, fine. But you sound silly complaining about "responsibility", "accountability", and "failure to imagine" at the same time. Because obviously, if it was an inside job, none of this stuff applies. You don't talk to cops like this if it's found out that they're on the take and purposefully let their drug supplier escape. They're simply criminals and are beyond being responsible, accountable, or even having …
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Joe, I don't accuse pacifists of being unpatriotic. I only accuse them of being extraordinarily naive. The true danger lies in doing nothing, chalking it up to an anomaly, and expecting the whole thing to just go away. That would be Moore, Michael, as I'm sure you're aware. I don't accuse truthies of being unpatriotic. I accuse them of being extraordinarily gullible and unsophisticated in how they evaluate information. Kind of like those people who buy the Star at the supermarket.
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Wiley, 19 brainwashed bigoted islamic murderers took advantage of a generally trusting and unsuspecting nation on 9/11. We tried our best to stop them. We failed. We learned. We changed our mindset and our procedures. We weren't perfect, we made mistakes, but we're only human. Quit blaming the well intentioned people that tried to stop the attack, and feel horribly that they were not able to do so. Redirect your misguided anger where it belongs. Brainwashed, inhuman islam.
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Thanks for twisting and shaping everything I said to fit your wishes, Wiley. It's an excellent parallel to how the "truth" movement takes things out of context and misrepresents things. Are you following in Chris Bollyn's footsteps? I didn't say trusting and unsuspecting defense forces, I said trusting and unsuspecting nation, which is entirely accurate. Our defense forces were not of the mind to defend us against our own civilian airliners, which strangely had never even once attacked us in the past. Even so, they made an earnest attempt once the plot was made clear, which unfortunately was not until after …
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Ari Fleischer To Jimmy Carter: You’re Music To Hezbollah’s Ears August 22, 2006 at 4:46 pm Some passages: I just read the transcript of your interview with the German magazine, Der Spiegel, in which you accuse Israel of launching an “unjustified attack on Lebanon.” Even after the interviewer reminded you that Israel was the first to get attacked, you charged Israel with lacking “any legal or moral justification for their massive bombing of the entire nation of Lebanon.” As someone who served in the White House as a spokesman for a President, I am reluctant to criticize another President, but in …
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When you can't even get your theories past the liberal Bush hating and tolerant nuthouse gatekeeper Jerry Springer, I would submit that you've got real problems. (Truthie interview starts after a few minutes of news & comment -- stream or download 20 mb mp3)
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"Sane adults treat mass murder as a crime, not an excuse for a crusade, Natalie." I guess to be consistent, you'd have to classify former President Clinton as insane, because after all, he led the nation into a war against Serbia on reports of genocide and war crimes, and thousands of civilian casualties resulted. Because of reluctance to commit ground troops, there was massive damage to infrastructure and damage to facilities that resulted in great environmental harm, as was the case in Lebanon recently. The reason for going to war, massive genocide, turned out to be not so massive …
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I shall repeat: Are you consistent? Did you cry and scream about the Kosovo war and the shaky ground on which it was based, or did you like most of the anti-war left, remain strangely silent throughout? It would be refreshing indeed if you could point me to some of your writings that condemned Clinton for doing so many of the same things you condemn Bush for. Of course I understand that perhaps you weren't all that into the Internet at the time, or perhaps hadn't delved into the world of online discussion. So I guess honesty may have to suffice. …
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Ok, so I guess you've made it quite plain you don't have much regard for consistency, and that indeed you aren't consistent about matters of going to war. You apparently just bend and bow to the political wind. Don't worry, you're in good company. Thank you for making that so clear!! No, Wiley, consistency is good. Not completely unbending, but basic consistency is a good thing. Ask pretty much anyone. You have refused to criticize dear Bill, and you scold me for even bringing him up. You are of the shallow opinion that policies and procedures of the preceding eight years …
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No Wiley, your topic is the handling of 9/11 by the Bush administration. The topic of this article is that the only evidence the 9/11 "truth" movement has for its "theories" is faith. Apparently faith in the belief that because Bush went to war in Iraq, that makes it a certainty that 9/11 was an inside job. You, having joined in supporting these theories that would have the whole thing planned and executed by our own government, have rendered your discussion about our air defense's response or Bush's failure to anticipate completely nonsensical. You post this: Conclusion The government alleges …
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This is almost too funny. The truthies are fighting amongst themselves, plunging steeply downward in a fashion reminiscent of flight 93. Nothing doth more hurt in a state than That cunning men pass for wise. -- Francis Bacon
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Natalie. You twist again. All you really say, repeatedly, is that the "official story" is true, and that anyone who disagrees with it or questions it has some inherent fault. That's because nobody has presented any credible or substantive reason as to why it's not (basically) true, and for people to cling to alternative theories with no evidence to back them up does indeed indicate an inherent fault. Not complicated. Now you're trying to "prove" that I'm "inconsistent" by wracking up all your projections and twistings of my words. Hijackers can be dead AND put on trial, you know. It seems …
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Joe, what are you? Are you a "thermitian", or a "no planer" guy? Can you list for us the types of active engineers and their resumes that have signed on as I guess either thermitians or no planers?
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Joe, you indeed come across as honest, and someone who is actually interested in the truth. I would just ask you to take a step back and contemplate what it means for people to reject the collective analysis of hundreds of qualified professionals in all the relevant scientific and engineering fields, and embrace the analysis of a tiny collection of people that have no such qualifications or expertise. I ask you to contemplate the fact that each and every one of the members of this tiny collection is vehemently against Bush, and his foreign policy. Although there are many examples …
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"Just what Batgirl has been asking for. A Structural Engineer discusses WTC collapse theories! Ha HA HA! The Bat will be gnashing its nasty fangs at this." B.S.? Prisonplanet? Are you kidding me????? GnashingOL!!!! Get an argument.
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LIke I said, Rabbit. B.S. Someone with a mere BS in engineering (note that it doesn't even specify structural engineering) is simply wet behind the ears. He might have lots of years working on the "oil rigs", and may have great knowledge for what needs to be done to fix a broken flange or something, but as far as high rise structural knowledge, he is a virtual child. Remember when Jones was all the rage? Now even his fellow "scholars" are throwing him to the wolves. Not to mention that his colleagues at the BYU schools of civil and structural engineering …
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He's not a structural engineer, Rabbit. He's an oil rig worker with a white hat who went to four lousy years of college. He never even thought about designing a quarter mile high building, much less has the knowledge to pass judgement on what brought one down. You're gonna have to do better than that. Way better.
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From Rabbit's link: The Final Reckoning: An Analysis of Demographics in Holocaust Literature By Harold Kreig, Lt.Col, AUS ret. · This is the first rational, heavily documented work on the subject of the Holocaust. Colonel Krieg has taken thousands of documents, including the official SS concentration camp records from 1935 through 1945 and official U.S. government postwar analysis of the system and the casualties and causes of death and produced a book that is highly informative and readable. Heavily footnoted and annotated, ‘The Final Reckoning’ is logical and compelling and is an historical work that should be read through by any …
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Rabbit has provided us all with an invaluable opportunity to assertain the reliability of much of the information we encounter on a thread like this. Let's start by looking at the "about us" page at Rabbit's tbrnews.org. Obviously, tbr stands for "The Barnes Review." Next, let's find out some interesting information about tbrnews.org, and the guy behind it, Walter Storch. As it turns out, Walter has lots of aliases, as of course do most reputable journalists. Finally, to tie it all together, let's go to a virtual gathering of Storch, and a collection of many of the other …
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Wiley, the point is not what formal education I've had, which I've always said has been none past high school. (Wait, I did go to college for a couple years, but it was just wasted party time -- no degree or anything) However, I can read, and I can reason. The point is the vast chasm between believers in pancakes and believers in bombs, in terms of the education and experience in the relevant fields of study necessary to make a valid analysis. We've got a theologian (David Griffin), and a history professor, or somethlng (Jim Fetzer) trying to tell us …
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Come on Wiley. I think you're smarter than all this. I do feel personally better though, knowing even Edison didn't go to college. However, he didn't invent things or figure things out from a standpoint of total ignorance of the subject, like for instance Mr. Griffin and Mr. Fetzer, and most all the rest. He studied and experimented in the sciences in depth, although not from a college classroom. He had to work doubly hard, no doubt. He was a pioneer. All this stuff hadn't been figured out yet, by anyone. I'm quite confident that if Edison were alive today, he …
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Wiley, The recent revelations about the JFK assassination are an excellent example of superior science winning out over a politicized investigation. (maybe) .... they say: "We don't know if there were two bullets," said Randich. "There could have been two bullets, but the lead composition data shows there could be anywhere from one to five bullets." So, pretty inconclusive as to actually solving the mystery. But reasonable people can disagree about JFK. There is credible evidence from both sides pointing to either a single gunman, or multiple. There is credible motivation for more than one person wanting to kill JFK, …
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The problem with the thinking of someone like Benjamin Ferencz is that it seems to conveniently ignore just how it became possible to try Nazi war criminals and Saddam Hussein in the first place. Lawyerly people like this are fine after the fact, but are essentially useless in getting mass murderers in a position where they can be dealt with by the "law". That is a job that is best suited for the U.S. military.
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Redhorse, Putting aside the fact that I can barely understand what I think you're trying to say, are you of the opinion that Abe LIncoln, FDR, Truman, JFK, Johnson, Nixon, Reagan, GHW Bush, and Clinton also should have been brought before the "Hague" for bombing/attacking innocent civilians, invading countries that never attacked us, etc, etc? Just trying to ascertain your consistency factor.
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Wiley, There were many people who's remains were identified at the WTC. No, not hijackers, I never said that, but many of the building occupants and some of the airline passengers were identified. You can dispute that if you wish, but it might help to provide some kind of proof to back up your position. (still waiting for proof about those "injects") I would suggest to you that the many colorful descriptions such that "everything was pulverized" were just that, colorful. In reality, there were countless identifiable objects and human body parts within the debris piles. How could there not be? …
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Sorry, my mistake John. To be more accurate, I should have said disintegration rays. Of course the more pertinent point is that our dear General attended an event sponsored by a holocaust denial/revisionist organization. Either he's on the same page as these real racists, or he's dumb as a stump. Were you there, John? A tree undamaged between the truck and the building a mere 15 feet away? Please, do provide further documentation. Seems unlikely, but what do I know? I never bin to kolij. (eggsep to party!!)
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A two word suggestion Joe: Paragraphs. Spellcheck. After that, maybe we can decipher what you're trying to say.
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Dear Mr. Atta, I'm pleased to inform you that your blessed son Mohammad has been found innocent of deliberately piloting/crashing American Airlines Flight 11 into the World Trade Center North Tower in New York City on September 11, 2001. An international tribunal, composed of a Witch and a Horse from America, a Rabbit from Australia and a Frog from France has found your son to be completely blameless. Our team quite effectively quoted the internationally respected negotiator and logician Bart Simpson: "I didn't do it, nobody saw me do it, you can't prove anything." Praise be to Allah, you can now …
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Actually Wiley, I was trying to be kind to the boy. The real problem was the content, not the construction. As a compassionate conservative, I was merely giving him a second chance not to be "left behind". Let's see if he takes advantage.
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"your condescending"? Please, Wiley, get it together! Actually Wiley, you're halfway there, because your construction is pretty good. Put another feather in your cap and make your content match reality, if indeed that's what you're intending to do. Otherwise, don't change a thing!! Your write, I am cute, though, and not only when I'm being compassionately condescending.
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“Content matching reality”? Tell us exactly what happened on 9/11 Natalie. And explain all the “content” that doesn’t match “reality”? Like passports that can survive infernos, and skyscrapers that collapse straight down, when hit on a side, and NORAD and the FAA missing all those hijacked planes so long, and W. sitting in that classroom as if he knew that he wasn’t endangering the children by being there while the U.S. was under attack; and radical “Islamofacsists going to a strip joint and making a scene of themselves the night before the murder and then packing suitcases to take with them, …
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a Popular Mechanics hit piece against the truth movement with Michael Chertoff's cousin as the fact-checker? This is a glaring example of your content not matching reality, Wiley. A more sweeping example is your misunderstanding and subsequent misrepresentation of the responsibilities, capabilities and culpability of NORAD and the FAA. ---------------------vv------------------- Before you incorporate the arguments put forth by the 9/11 "truth" movement into your daily interactions with friends and family, you may want to fact check them first, and consider them in the context of common sense. You will be spared possibly permanent embarrassment if you simply run your revelation du …
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Joe, Thanks for the link to the NIST Q&A which was no doubt necessitated by an avalanche of emails from those bored by conventional wisdom. Your link was close, just needed to say factsheets instead of factsheet. Use copy and paste from your address bar for 100% accuracy. This is an excellent resource for those unable or unwilling to read the entire NIST report, which is made up of several volumes and is quite massive in its entirety. I think you somewhat mischaracterize their stance on WTC 7, however, as I suspect their intention is to look into "blast events" …
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Redhorse sez: Ya know Natalie...you must have grown up on a sod farm , cause slinging manure is right up your alley....not a single structural engineer on this planet....don’t you think that’s a little to over the top..... Natalie the farm girl...reads the minds of strucural engineers...world wide...... Over the top? No, not at all. Of course you misstated what I quite accurately said, which was that no institute of structural engineers, or any institute of any kind of engineering endorses or even seriously entertains the CD theory, anymore than there's some serious institute of flight or astronomy that endorses the …
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John, Still waiting for some documentation of that undamaged tree between the truck blast and the Murrah building.
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You want to explain to everyone how my "comments" on Popular Mechanics and Chertoff does not "match reality"? Doesn't match WHAT "reality"? Isn't it pretty obvious? The two Chertoffs are not cousins, or if they are, it's so distant as to be meaningless. They've never met. It would be like me claiming that you were cousins to the wicked witch of the west. It might pique some interest, but it would be inaccurate and ridiculous. We all know how many times almost everything you post has been refuted. Like the NORAD issue---I posted their mission statement from their website and you …
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I'm think I'm on to you Redhorse. You purposefully say weird stuff, the meaning of which is only apparent to you, so nobody knows quite how to respond. I'll try. By "the Rumsfeld act", you mean misstating the case, or firing inaccurate arrows -- I presume. You would be guilty of performing the "Rumsfeld act", not me. You are the one who took my simple statement of fact and assigned your own inaccurate notions and emotions to it. My arrows are indeed accurate, and the only defense you can think of is to pretend the opposite without any proof.
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"We KNOW that radiation is not a good thing. There is no scientific "debate" on that question. " Actually John, there's a fairly large body of science that concludes that low level radiation is not only not harmful, but beneficial. Simply type into a search engine: health benefits of low level radiation This may be wrong, I'm not sure, a lot of people aren't sure, but two things are clear to me. Low level radiation cannot be all that harmful, if it is at all, and there is indeed scientific debate on this question. Depleted uranium emits extremely low levels of …
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Natalie....Having read many of the other posts made on this site...the enormous amount of information..”.evidence “; “ proof “ ...has already been posted...the Wiley one...rabbit...frog...and at times WTH… others.. have done an excellent job....Redhorse would find a point by point rebuttal of your reprocessed rhetorical renditions of Tony Snow -Job or the Rumsfeld Hour… redundant to the extreme… time consuming...and ultimately useless....for poor little Natalie is lost and does not want to be found...... Now maybe the others really care about saving poor Natty...or they enjoy sharing information for the purposes of enlightment...knowledge...But I have little time or patience for Nata-lie.....Horses …
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It's also a heavy metal you twit...and when placed on the tips of bullets, ...gets pulverized upon contact....Breathing in that air is not good....you supercilious twit...........health benefits....ok... Perhaps it's not good, but more likely, it's of little or no consequence. The few dozens of people actually documented to have inhaled any measurable quantities of the stuff have shown no ill-effects after many years. Numerous, in depth studies have all concluded that depleted uranium is perhaps not completely harmless, but is far, far from being the demon some people so want it to be. It wouldn't surprise me a bit if a …
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But Redhorse, Wouldn't the beneficial effects of the radiation erase any harm done by heavy metal poisoning? This is my theory. Surely if a theologian can theorize about what made a skyscraper collapse, I can weigh in on matters of radiology and chemistry. Besides, I'm pro-war, and that makes my viewpoint even more legitimate, right? ........ right?.......... It's only fair.
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Dumb as hell, he says. Ohhhhh............kay.
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So, you didn't mention Chertoff, Wiley. Any further thoughts? I guess you can see that if I'm out of my tree on NORAD, then so are all the members of the 9/11 commission. At least I'm not so lonely now. I've always thought like most of the world that radiation is simply bad for you. However, it's not my opinion, but that of at least some in the legitimate scientific community, that the negative effects of radiation are not necessarily on a straight-line scale from zero on up. There appears to be a low level of radiation, above normal background, that …
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This might be a fine opportunity for you to do some research on your own, Wiley, and maybe you'll discover how easy it is for somebody to invent something and for people to accept it as fact, uncritically. Perhaps you might realize that many of the other things you've come to believe that have been presented by the online "alternative explanations" club are also not grounded in fact or reality. ---------------------vv------------------- Before you incorporate the arguments put forth by the 9/11 "truth" movement into your daily interactions with friends and family, you may want to fact check them first, and consider …
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Joe, What exactly did I LIE about? Filth? You stated in your post: Nist admits that the investigation into the collapse of world trade center 7 has been insufficent and they are now "considering wether hypothetical blast points could have played a role in initiating the collapse". Well it took them how long? I guess they started to panic when they found out they can be charged with the cover up and the aiding and abeding of the criminal eliment within the goverment that did this. I was being nice also. This is completely misrepresentative of NIST's stance on the status …
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For Wiley, history started Jan. 2001. For the rest of us that have TV, an excellent opportunity to learn just how untrue this is in regard to 9/11 is hopefully soon upcoming. (I say hopefully because apparently former President Clinton is attempting to play network censor) The Path to 9/11 will be airing next Sun., Sept 10, and Mon., the 11th., unless Clinton's calls to ABC somehow result in it being cancelled or edited to his liking. My intention is not to "blame" Clinton and his administration for 9/11, or to deflect blame from Bush. Clinton did many things …
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Hear that scorp, you've got to be more entertaining. It's simply not enough to be coherent, precise, sensible and truthful; you gotta be entertaining too. I actually thought the drama of having 19 brainwashed bigoted barbarian bastards with non-the-less the cunning to exploit our free and trusting society to their advantage, successfully attacking and killing 3000 of us on 9/11, was pretty darn riveting. But it's not enough for these folks. They insist on the added ingredient of our own Government having had a hand in it. They demand this be part of the story line, or I guess it's just …
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Joe, Regarding Chertoff: The story about M. being cousins to B. was invented by the same man who conjured up this journalistic masterpiece of a paragraph: No evidence has been produced to support the theory that the burning jet fuel and secondary fires "attacking the questionably fireproofed lightweight trusses and load-bearing columns directly caused the collapses," Manning wrote, adding that the collapses occurred "in an alarmingly short time." From the actual words of his subject thus: "However, respected members of the fire protection engineering community are beginning to raise red flags, and a resonating theory has emerged: The structural damage from …
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"I will soon be too busy for this little diversion" Translation: My positions about 9/11 and NORAD have been exposed as weak and fanciful, and it's too much work to continue to support them without reality as a helper. Therefore, I will make my exit with one last little smokescreen, and when it clears, I'll be safely gone. Wiley, just a suggestion. Take your suspicions about the towers down to the structural engineering dept., and see what they have to say. Perhaps some face to face time will help.
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Great, Joe, we have something in common. We both admire Reagan. Do you agree with his general attitude toward Israel? And, regarding Chertoff, even if the two were close cousins, what relevance would this have to the facts at hand, especially given the fact that M. Chertoff didn't even become homeland security head until after the PM piece had gone to press? Shouldn't the facts (and their accuracy and reliability) presented by PM be the focus of any kind of criticism? And why would you put any kind of faith in Alex Jones, who has made thousands of bizarre, ridiculous claims …
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Farewell, Wiley, and good luck with your studies. Always admiring of someone with high standards, just not unrealistic after the fact politically selective standards. I'm not opposed to constructive criticism of our air defenses, just a little suspicious of someone who can't bring themselves to express the slightest anger at the terrorists who are truly at fault, and is in fact confused as to whether they even existed in the first place. Do take a few minutes out of a day on campus and make an appointment to talk with a professor of structural engineering. There may not be anyone in …
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With the anniversary of 9/11 just a couple of weeks away, it's time to strike a blow for sanity and, yes, truth. If the polls are accurate, someone you know is flirting with 9/11 denial - or perhaps has succumbed already to the contagious delusion. The symptoms are unmistakable. For starters, the victim uses the phrase "the official version" when referring to events of that day - or more likely, "the government version" - and utters the words with unconcealed contempt.
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An excellent round-up of topics recently discussed can be found here. You can stream or download the mp3, and listen to the man himself Ben Chertoff and guests discuss the twin towers, wtc7, the Pentagon, NORAD/FAA and @ 1:02:45, his relationship with Michael Chertoff.
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Snore snore Skip. Don't tell me. You're against the Iraq war and you think Israel is an aggressor nation. Thanks for showing us the pile of crap that is the "truth" movement. Within all the paranoid conjecture and hypothesizing, not a shred of actual proof of bombs, missiles, or even a stand-down. Just careless, baseless and IRRESPONSIBLE accusations of mass murder. Say Hi to Jesse for us, unless you are he. In that case, Hi Jesse!!
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"You can lead a horticulture but you can't make her think." Lucky for Wiley, she's gone and won't see that. Otherwise, everytime she heard the word horticulture, which will be thousands, she'd be forced to think of you, and by extension, me, her arch Internet enemies. She got outta here just in time.
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Snobbish? Devotion to ideology? Skewed? Distorted? Whore? Those in glass houses....... Got anything besides junior high playground insults? Like something resembling an argument? Thought not. Ah Red, you be way too serious. Smoke a chunka DU & lighten up. Well, at least you didn't say "official version." There may be hope.
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Johnny Duoh, Send your mindless propaganda to Al-Jazeerah. -- I'm sure they'll be all too happy to lap it up, but like the Star and the Globe at the supermarket, we're simply not buying it, or if we do, it's only for comic relief. And what about that tree?
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"many muslims have stated that the videos are bogus..." Right Red, and many muslims and muslim apologists have stated that the WTC towers were felled by deliberately placed explosives. Many muslims and their "I'm not actually one but I play one on the Internet" defense attorneys have stated that a missile hit the pentagon. Many of these goof balls state that either there were no hijackers, or that maybe there were some, but some are still alive. So now, you somehow think that we should trust their analysis of videos, much less anything? No, these guys might want to think about …
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Frog, Your comments seem to support our subject author's contention that the only real evidence the "truth" movement has for its claims is faith in the notion that just because some bad things may have been done by the CIA and the USA in the past, or that if somebody has low poll numbers, that means that the WTC towers must have been bombed, and that the Pentagon must have been missiled. I'm sure Ms. Allen is grateful for your support. True leaders don't worry so much about polls. But short-sighted people who don't have the slightest idea what to do …
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"Nattyshill, With or without a tree, OKC stinks." So seems to agree Alex Jones, he even suspects an Iraqi connection. If he's right, this in itself would justify the invasion, IMHO. Of course we're left wondering why nowadays Alex has joined the denial club that says that muslims are suddenly innocent as lambs. We're wondering why if Alex thinks that there was an Iraqi connection back then, even though the FBI said no, that he now suddenly trusts every govt. official that says Iraq didn't have anything to do with 9/11. "AJ: No, I'm angry too. They've got biologicals, they've …
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Yeah, scorp, certainly some sex based issues there. He's apparently of the mind that abusive language and name calling are somehow intimidating here, as I assume they are in his real life, if he has one. Now I know you and I have occasionally blurted out a negative label or connotation here and there, but always certainly only in response to a barrage of mindless pointless insults and obscenities. If he only knew how revealing his method of discourse is to the depth and breadth of his ability to communicate a point. If he only knew how much laughter and amusement …
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Ahh......another one bites the dust!! Red -- gone because he realized his abusive comments are only hurting himself and amusing and even strengthening me, so they won't endure, and that sadly he has little to offer if he can't use that crutch. He probably even realized that Saddam's own genocide makes ours look like a paint ball tournament. Rabbit -- gone because the crackpot theories about thermite and seismic spikes he tried to advance were exposed as total nonsense, and because his little shell game of using "anti-Zionist" as a cover for being able to hate some 90% of Jews was …
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zzzzzzzz...... not nearly enough abuse there. I'm super addicted. It's either you or DU. Save me!!
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"Natalie - Are you familiar with Mensa?" Degrading female reproductive system related comments, scorp, are best left to a professional like Red. Please, stick to what you're best at -- identifying and countering the flaws, foibles and downright dangers of modern liberalism, all the while using impeccable logic, understandable sentences and correct spelling. What's that?.....you say what?......uh huh, uh huh.....Mensa is a club for people with high IQs, and what I'm thinking of is menses? Well, that's different. Thanks, but those tests cause me brain pain. I wouldn't be surprised if you were a member, though. Thanks for all your help …
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"imagine the moron having to face an intelligent scholar" Well, I guess it takes one to know one. You intelligent scholars gotta stick together. In other news, BYU finally got tired of being mistaken for a mental institution, and not a university like they always used to be. I gotta feelin Jones is gonna be livin alone soon, too. The Mrs. can't be happy about this, and what it means to her doughy white professor's wives bridge club membership.
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The last time Rabbit swapped emails with professor Jones he seemed quite upbeat, and considering the advances in the 9/11 truth case of late that is hardly surprising. The mentally ill are often quite cheerful and "upbeat", as I can personally attest to after recently attending a local Special Olympics event. Does Batgirl know Mrs Jones belongs to a Bridge club? Does a “Doughy” countenance have anything to do with truth or qualifications Batgirl? Or is it just that you are so poverty stricken for anything substantial these days that you will even attack a truth telling person for being short …
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"Wikipedia has a good summay of Professor Jones academic history. Jones has written a book about Jesus Christ’s visit to ancient America, he was active in the cold fusion cock-up before it came to naught, and now he has taken a leading role in the 09/11 conspiracy theory." I'm starting to see a pattern here. Every "theory" Jones advances has precious little evidence to back it up. Just a lot of religious and politically based faith, it would seem.
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I understand how hard it must be for you, Rabbit. Your hero, the only person in the "truth" movement with even the slightest semblance of scientific credibility, has been rejected by the very institution who's good name he depends on for that credibility. I will predict that either Jones will be finally reinstated with the understanding that he won''t use BYU servers for the dissemination of his crackpot notions and won't involve unsuspecting students in his quest for truth in thermite, or that he'll be fired and be forced to take his show on the road. The popup ads and offers …
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Rabbit, I welcome you into the vicinity of sanity. Your embracement of "Representative Press" is an indication that you finally recognize that theories about controlled demolition, missiles fired at the Pentagon, and non-existent hijackers are as nutty as squirrel droppings. R.P. at least presents a debatable POV., and that is what motivated bin Laden and the hijackers. I don't frankly care all that much -- all I know is that anyone who would kill themselves and thousands of others over a land dispute is not worth the analytical energy. I say pull that trigger or push that button, and erase …
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"By the way, you know why the pancaking theory has been dropped and is no longer being sold? It was based upon the fact that FEMA who came up with that silly theory, used a fake structural plan which has been proven since. The actual structure did not allow the pancake theory to work at all. " Rabbit, you're projecting all kinds of motivations and emotions here. The FEMA building performance study was a preliminary study, and speculations about floor pancaking being what initiated the collapse were never trumpeted as final or absolute. NIST makes quite clear that they …
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"Despite that, EVEN IF the 19 loonies inspired by the Man In The Cave, did it, the .consequences following on this lunatic “War On Terra “are in themselves sufficient to impeach the Bushling. Complete disaster." This is a POV that is at least debatable. Is this a crack in the wall I detect?
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Rabbit posted: "Explosions In The Basement. http://jfk2wtc.tripod.com/ Mike told his co-worker to call upstairs to their Assistant Chief Engineer and find out if everything was all right. His co-worker made the call and reported back to Mike that he was told that the Assistant Chief did not know what happened but that the whole building seemed to shake and there was a loud explosion. They had been told to stay where they were and "sit tight" until the Assistant Chief got back to them. ............... The two decided to ascend the stairs to the C level, to a small machine shop …
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You are the PR flack, I’m just an ordinarily puzzled member of the public who is following this debate. No, sorry, I'm not a PR flack any more than you are for whatever ideological corner of the universe you speak and advocate for. I'm just an ordinary member of the public as well, one who sees right through all this truthie nonsense and believes it is dangerous and destructive to our chances of ever figuring out the proper course to take when it comes to dealing with the Islamic world. You are equally critical of misconceptions that led us to war …
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I'm sensing a bit of disenchantment with the idea that the U.S. government deliberately carried out the 9/11 attacks. Am I right? I sense that ya'all are of the mind that it was our fault that Atta & co. felt jusified in their actions, and that our reaction to the event was poorly conceived and executed. I think that reasonable people people can agree or disagree on these points. It's the nuttier 9/11 notions I have a problem with -- the crazy assertions that serve to so powerfully justify and amplify the hatred certain people might already have for the U.S. …
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John!! The tree! The tree! What about the tree???? Ah shoot. He's gone already.
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An excellent and telling side by side comparison.
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scorp, all I can think to do at this point is shake my head and stare at the screen in stunned amazement at what I'm reading. I think I need to take a walk, or something.
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Joe, The Seismologists say the first impact occurred @ 8:46:29 am. This video confirms that the plane actually hit @ 8:46:26-28 am. I don't understand what all the controversy is about. These times are well within margins of error.
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Big bad wolf!!! ROFL.....oh, my gut. (gotta clean that floor) Ya know, that's a theory worth looking into. There was a lot of reports of rushing air in the elevator shafts and stairwells and hallways. "And then, ya know, there was this strong wind just blowing down the stairwell. You know, like the kind from the big bad wolf?"
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Sure Joe, I think you're probably right on those times, except that of course LDEO corrected their time to 8:46:29. Why didn't you list my video time?
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Joe, I think your confusion lies in your assumption that the 9/11 commission, or FEMA, or the FAA, or NTSB put out collision and/or collapse times that were intended to be right down to the second accurate. From what I've read, the times given by LDEO are indeed scientifically accurate, within a second or two. However, many other times are mere estimates, such as radar sweeps, etc. When I say estimate, I mean within 10 sec. or so. Aviation and air traffic control do not depend on nat's ass time precision for guidance. (no pun intended) Certainly they all like to …
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I'll repeat my post from page 8 or 9: 3.6 ABSOLUTE TIME ACCURACY Many of the news broadcasts on September 11, 2001, had the current time imprinted on the screen. These imprints are known in the industry as "bugs." As these broadcasts were timed, it became apparent that there were small differences between times for the second aircraft impact based on these bugs and the time used as the basis for the database. Checks with several broadcasters indicated that the bugs should be quite close to the actual time because the clocks used as sources for the bugs are regularly updated …
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"The elevators that went up where not damaged." Why then weren't firemen able to use them?
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ASSERTION #4 "Several credible eyewitnesses are adamant that they heard explosions in or near the towers." PROTEC COMMENT: Maybe they did hear loud noises that sounded to them like explosions, but such statements do nothing to refute scientific evidence that explosives were not used. Arguing over who heard explosion-like noises, when they heard them, how loud they were or from what direction they came is a pointless exercise. This is not to imply that any witness should be ridiculed or dismissed; however, such subjective, highly interpretive statements do nothing to prove or disprove the presence of explosives. Simply put, there …
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Joe, If you can give me a link to a statement by the FAA specifically saying that their time for actual impact of the plane is precise to within a second or so, that would be great. I really don't see any way that they could provide such precise information, but I could be wrong. Even so, wouldn't actual time precise broadcasts showing the actual event, with the ability to break down the frames to show the precise time of impact be unassailable, especially after using several of them? Yes, radar travels at the speed of light, but the question is …
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Joe, You make a lot of claims, but you seldom back them up with links to credible sources. I don't think that is too much to ask, especially given the extraordinary and accusatory nature of your claims. I don't think that the commission was in any position to make judgements on the flow of jet fuel in the building. NIST was, and they concluded that there was no evidence for explosives having been set in the building.
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Joe, I would think that the overriding need to get to the fire zone quickly, especially given the extreme height of the fire and the weight they had to carrry might trump the general rule that you don't ride elevators in case of fire. Again, link me to a credible account of the reasons they didn't take the elevators. I do remember some actual footage of the disaster team preparing to ascend, and somebody saying that they couldn't take the elevators because they weren't operable.
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I believe that this is likely the primary reason Terry Allen wrote this article, Frog. In addition to her I assume believing that truthie's claims are completely without merit, she is probably more concerned about what effect the Dem base embracing them is going to have on the Democratic party.
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Joe, I looked at the two firemen's testimony after fixing your links, and quite frankly I don't see any kind of "smoking gun". One portion thus: "When we were going there, I remember seeing debris and what not falling. When we got to the staging area inside the lobby, I remember seeing other companies. I remember vividly seeing it looked like the core elevators of the building were blown apart as if a giant had punched through tinfoil." This seems more consistent with a jet fuel induced explosion than with any kind of event that would be intended to interfere with …
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Boy, you guys could find a conspiracy in my Grandma's cookie jar. About the elevators and the jet fuel. Joe, in the NIST reports, there's numerous accounts of fireballs coming out of elevators at several different levels of WTC 1 from just below the impact zone to the basement. There are several reports of the smell of jet fuel. The key question would be, I guess maybe for Otis Elevators, is whether or not the floors at which the elevators transitiioned are somehow sealed. In other words, is the flow of fuel possible from the top to the bottom? It would …
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You're really grabbing at straws here, Joe. NIST did not make up their times, they based them on solid information. If that tape is authentic, it only goes to substantiate the well documented event of secondary explosions from jet fuel in the elevator shafts. There were fireballs coming out of elevators on numerous floors. There were people burned. This is not consistent with any kind of effort to undermine the steel columns of the building. Is this how thermite behaves, creating fireballs and pressure events? I don't think so. It happened right after a plane carrying 10,000 gallons of jet fuel …
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"I only ask because I am trying to find out if you are human or some kind of programed machine. You realy are starting to scare me." No, Joe, I'm no machine. I'm laughing my ass off, so I don't see how I could be!! You on the other hand seem fairly machine like to me. Plodding along, completely ignoring all facts and logic, determined to reach a pre-determined outcome using whatever means necessary. I guess I should be scared, but at this point I'm merely dumbfounded.
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Joe, I think you've got things just a tad bit backwards. You seek to project a Hitler-like mindset onto an honest effort to defeat enemies that both admire and seek to imitate that very ideology, and in fact rival it in sheer inhumanity, intolerance and bigotry. Saddam has quite a soft spot for Hitler. Radical Islam's use of brainwashing, torture and death to demand those under their rule goose-step to their distorted religious view makes the Nazis look positively passive. When did I decide that 9/11 was a terrorist attack? Like 99.9% of people with a lick of …
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Dream on, Rabbit. Joe has proven nothing as regards the "truth" movement's bizarre, unsupportable, and irresponsible claims. Neither have you. Your best evidence apparently is your unjustified hubris. That seems to be the hallmark of the "truth" movement. I'm angry, and I say: "Anyone who doesn't see that it was an inside job is an idiot" over and over again. That's some scientific method.
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Frog, The President simply misspoke, and didn't mean to say that he actually saw the plane go into the building. He was talking about seeing the effect of the plane going into the building. The President is famous for misspeaking. He is not good at expressing himself accurately in public. This is a reality that any casual observer can comprehend. You, on the other hand are very good at manufacturing something that doesn't fit with reality. A simple misspeak is much more boring than imagining that he planned and was aware of the whole plot while it was unfolding, or because …
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Good day and thank you for your answer. I admit I have not read the entire NIST report "yet." I agree he did not as well and that he was cought off gaurd. Why did you post it then, Joe? What possible value does the opinion of someone who is completely uninformed about the circumstances behind the event have? And why are you out there making uninformed insinuations without the benefit of being aware of all the investigation and work that has gone on to account for why WTC7 fell? What does Saddam have to do with 9/11? I agree that …
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Dear Jeff Glickman, Holocaust denial actually seems credible and scientifically based next to 9/11 conspiracy theories. Sincerely, Natalie, the evil fruit bat shill.
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Joe, You're making all this way more complicated than it is in real life. But that's what conspiracy theorists do best, isn't it? What about Ronald Reagan and Israel?
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OMFG, Joe. Yes, I am absolutely saying that ANYONE, I repeat ANYONE, who has no knowledge outside of simply watching the collapse from one of the limited angles available is NOT QUALIFIED to judge what caused the collapse of WTC7, or anything. What's more, ANYONE who insists on passing judgment solely on this limited perspective is SIMPLY AN IDIOT. I can't for the life of me believe that you haven't read the entire FEMA preliminary report on WTC7. It is the result of I'm sure hundreds if not thousands of professional man-hours of calculations, judgments and conclusions. The exact same …
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"I am sorry I have not taken the time to respond to you question about Reagan and Israel. Reagan was in a war (the cold war) so it was very important to our geopolitical situation to have as many allies in the middle east. If you recall we were allies with OBL and Iraq as well wich I can understand because of the percived threat at that time from the USSR. At that time it was in our best intrest to have Isreal on our side. I still think Isereal should be our allie but just as we need to remove …
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Here's the story of a coupla falsie wearing punks. You guys have been so had. I'd be angry.
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No wonder you clowns can’t focus on reality you have so much fiction and paranoia running around those few rusty synapses you call a mind. Projection. A game the whole family can play. 600,000? Is this a result of your focus on reality?
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scorp, You're right on target as far as I'm concerned, in fact I think most rational people all over the world are very aware of and very concerned about the growing threat posed by radical Islam, and Iran in particular. Of course not talking about the vast majority of the Iranian people, who don't want to live under a strict and if necessary brutal theocracy, but their extreme leadership. People everywhere are struggling with how to address this growing threat, with many still in denial. Some so deeply they cling to notions of them not being responsible for 9/11. …
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A loose coalition of liars, profiteers, political panderers, conspiracy theorists, anti-Semitics, terrorist sympathizers, cyber thrill seekers, anti-Americans, and the mentally ill is growing and congealing in America. They allege terrorists did not attack the United States on 9/11; President Bush and the “neocons” did it or the Jews did it or both did it. Their fallback theory is the Bush administration extensively knew about the 9/11 plot by terrorists and just let 9/11 happen so they could aggressively pursue a war on terror. And as usual, the New York Times is sitting back, doing the bare minimum. The enemies of …
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Joe, There's one helluva lot more evidence of Iraq's involvement in 9/11 than there is that the twin towers were imploded by anyone other than brainwashed terrorists and their planes. I'm just an ordinary nobody, Joe, but to me it makes a lot more sense that Saddam Hussein had a hand in 9/11 than it does to think that anyone in our government would see fit to murder what easily could have been tens of thousands of its own citizens for whatever reason. Why is it that "Loose Change" seems to make perfect sense to you folks, but the …
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I do not know why we give any oxygen to these extraordinary libels. Detestation for George Bush may qualify a person for many things, but it is not a degree of metallurgy, just as anti-Americanism is not a branch of physics. These theories that suggest a sitting president and his advisors would murder their own citizenry are a calumny, as lunatic as they are contemptible. They come from the imagination of hate, the pernicious concoctions of minds allergic to reality, and are beneath the dignity of reasoning human beings. At least there's one sane person left in Canada. Politics and …
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"BYU's 'Conspiracy' Professor Getting New Support" Prediction of future headline: 'Conspiracy' Professor's Apparently Willful Mischaracterization of Photograph Tops List of Reasons for Termination Cooled chunk of molten steel Cool chunk of pancaked debris mmmmm........pancakes
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Another one of the "scholars" gets smacked down. Big time. J.R. Dunn responds You conspiracy hounds are all alike - tossing up a blizzard of unrelated, scattershot "facts" designed to overwhelm all opposition while possessing no internal coherence whatsoever. And you have the nerve to talk to me about "context"? Well, my friend, I'll play your game. I will go over all of your factoids, every last claim you make in that e-mail, and erase them from the board, one after the other. And when I'm finished, and your argument lies in ruins, I will give you a context. I …
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More disregard and disrespect for excrement. This time from the left. "We have enough proof that the Bush administration is a bunch of lying evildoers. We don't need to make it up". That spotlight's a bitch, aint it? Perhaps best to scurry back under that rock. (BTW, thanks to Conspiracy Smasher for making these and many other articles known to me and others.)
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Indeed scorp, the liberals at Alternet and elsewhere operate on another level of conspiratorial thinking, just not quite as ridiculous as that of the ITT animals, the Joes, and the Duohs. But not all that far removed. ;-)
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Joe, You don't seem to be able to make a coherent point. Any fool could post a mountain of links and lists of people that hold varying degrees of agreement with this or that nutty notion, and imply that each and every one of them believes in bombs, missiles and stand-downs. I'll repeat this gem of a paragraph that I posted just above: You conspiracy hounds are all alike - tossing up a blizzard of unrelated, scattershot “facts” designed to overwhelm all opposition while possessing no internal coherence whatsoever. And you have the nerve to talk to me about “context”? …
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For instance, let's talk about "professor" Jones. You imply censorship, yet Jones is has been given free reign to post his paper on University servers for many months. He's been in the paper, on the radio, and on TV. He's appeared at numerous forums and conducted numerous forums himself. Finally, his degree of insanity and his wholly inappropriate accusations have dawned upon the University, and especially being a private institution they have every right and obligation to put him on leave and investigate him. But he is still free to put his little rag out there by other means. In fact, …
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Yes, Joe, sorry. My stupid eyes told my stupid brain that you said that they didn't link to Jones' report. My mistake. Can we stay on one subject at a time, please Joe? I'm not going to allow you to dump an avalanche of stuff on me and expect me to dig and sort through it, not even knowing what you're expecting me to find or comment on. You're simply putting up a smokescreen. I asked that we talk specifically about Jones. I pointed out the problem with his molten mass. You said nothing about it. I said that your contention …
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Please I never said stupid eyes or stupid brain and you should not as well. I know you didn't Joe. Ever watch the Simpsons? There's a lot of life lessons therein. ;-) Simply trying to admit a simple mistake, that's all. Though we disagree you have made some inteligent arguments even though they are somewhat distorted do to doubelthink caused by the huge barrier that is put in place from the inability to except what our government has done. As far as distortion, you're on mighty shakey ground. What exactly do you suspect our government did? I'm looking for specifics …
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Joe sez: "www.house.gov/mckinney" ????????? (mouth agape)
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"http://thinkprogress.org" ??????? (mouth agape) Conservative???? Further to the right than I am????? Starting to really wonder about you, Joe. Exactly what branch of engineering did you receive your degree in? You seem to have a talent for some strange sort of political reverse-engineering. P.S. Your Canadian Google video link appears to be defective, at least to me. You should check these links after you post them, and fix them if necessary with the edit function.
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I am having a dificult time trying to find a site that says all the masses of concrete, iron, and more found fused together below ground zero do not exist or are just compressd piles of junk like the link you gave me says. As a matter of fact it looks to me that BYU has never said that or considerd that and that his (Jones) suspension was do to statements that he made and not his research. The point is, Joe, that obviously the pictures are of the same object. For some unexplained reason, Jones' reproduction of it is …
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Your YouTube video: Kevin Ryan states that he was a manager at UL. This may be technically true, but the whole truth is that he was manager of a water testing unit that had not a thing to do with the fire testing work UL proper was doing for NIST. And of course, Ryan has expressed his bitter political bias all over the web. No, UL didn't certify the structural steel used to build the WTC. They certified the fire worthiness of the truss assemblies, with their fireproofing intact. They repeated these tests for NIST for their report, again with the …
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OK Joe. I see now that you were trying to quote someone else. This is an excellent example of why it is important to try to communicate clearly. Both scorp and I took from what you wrote that you were the engineer. It wasn't readily apparent to me otherwise even after you attempted to explain it to scorp. Perhaps we didn't read what you wrote as carefully as we should have, but the truth is that it's often very hard, at least for me, to pick out the wheat from your chaff. I hope you'll take that as constructive criticism. I …
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Ul tested the relativly flimsy truss assemblies. Ok fine can you at least agree that they are considerd the weakest link? Well they would not fail from the fires in the world trade center. End of story. Good. You understand that UL didn't "certify" steel beams and posts. However, you don't seem to understand that yes, the trusses did indeed fail. They were the weak link, as you say, because their insulation was knocked off and flakey even before the crash, and they failed. There is photographic evidence of the floors sagging. There is photographic and eyewitness testimony of the exterior …
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Joe, The point you are missing is that yes, UL re-tested truss assembly mock-ups for NIST as I have previously stated, but they were tested with fire-proofing on. This was not the case at the WTC on 9/11. The trusses had no hope of lasting long at all with no fire protection. As has been previously established, the force of the plane impacts was sufficient to register on seismographs 70 (?) km away. It's hard to imagine any fireproofing remaining on at least a large portion of the trusses, not to mention the vertical columns. (In fact, the loss of fireproofing …
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Joe, this is rather sophmoric, don't you think, trying to find all these supposedly nefarious connections. There is not a shred of direct physical evidence to even begin to back up the ridiculous theories you put forth. I tend not to trust a lot of the information you present, based on the track record of the "truth" movement: Kevin Ryan....misrepresented status and expertise Steven Jones......misrepresented photographic evidence and misused quotes by others. Rejected by his own University. Most everyone.....misrepresented relationship between Michael and Benjamin Chertoff, based on initial faulty and likely knowingly false report by Chris Bollyn. Most everyone.....misrepresents WTC temperature …
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Joe, Again, you're leaving out key information. The report you cite, without actually linking to it, is a partisan house minority report. It is merely a politically motivated partisan attack, and its validity should be suspect in that light. I'm quite sure that Democratic administrations could have just as easily been portrayed as misusing science to further their own agenda by the opposition party, who could have solicited their own self-serving report. NIST is not the Bush administration, anyway. There are no doubt hundreds of anti-Bush career staff members employed. It is too open a process, and it is too …
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Yep scorp, they're all about anger. That is often evident on this board. At least Joe is not so vicious, although I'm a little suspicious about the honest part. They had a fit about "Path to 9/11", not because of a little dramatic license used, but because it made it clear that history didn't begin on 1/20/2001, and that there were many opportunities lost, and just as much lack of pre-emptive thinking and action during that long period as there may have been in 8 months of Bush. Once in a while, you get a very clear and disturbing picture of …
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Redhorse, I certainly respect the young soldier's service, but his mindless recitation of complete and utter nonsense renders him a cheeshead, at least on this subject. A highly respected cheesehead, but a cheesehead non-the-less. Come to think of it, I'm quite glad this person is no longer in the military, because he apparently doesn't know the difference between tabloid propaganda and legitimate analysis. Probably best he's not in a position to be responsible for other's lives. I wonder if his company is aware of his goofy beliefs. I kinda wonder if this guy even exists. Certainly wouldn't be the first hoax …
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"What do you suppose Horse is going on about?" I'm not absolutely sure scorp, but it would appear that it's based in the same kind of paranoid wishful thinking as is the "inside job" theory. Thanks, Joe, I was able to access the report this time. I'll read through it and get back to you about it ASAP. You post so many links Joe, it would be nice if you would make them clickable. Copy this string: and store it someplace. To make your links directly clickable, first paste this string into your post, then insert (paste) the complete …
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Nice job on the link, Joe. It is kind of cool, isn't it? I don't see any reference to fire-proofing in the MIT pdf you linked us to. Did I miss it? This report was written very early, even before the FEMA report was released. They had limited information, as they stipulate. Admittedly, there is some debate about the varying degrees of influence the fires vs. the structural damage had on the initiation of the collapse. Some engineers believe that the huge and encompassing fires alone, with insulation in place, would have been easily sufficient to bring down the towers. This …
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Here's the actual testimony by Mineta. Maybe I'm missing something, but it appears to me that his assumption is that Cheney is referring to the fact that the order to shoot down the plane still stands. There seems to be some disagreement as to time. Here is the relevant portion of the 9/11 commission report, (pg. 40) which also supports apparently everyone except the "truth" movement's opinion that Cheney meant that yes, the order to shoot down still stands: The Vice President remembered placing a call to the President just after entering the shelter conference room. There is conflicting evidence …
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Looks like I've created a link-clickable monster!! Just kidding, Joe. Good job with the html. Thanks, much easier to navigate your sources.
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" i put that there so that Mr White didnt think I was some weirdo." Good move. I'm sure Mr. White was reassured. Since you've got a real job, there's no way you can be a kook. Steven Jones is certainly evidence of that, at least until the review board rules. Joe, I feel like I'm being lured into the Church of Scientology or something. It's no secret, no mystery and really no surprise that our reaction to nearly simultaneous commandeering hijackings of commercial airliners was far from perfect. What IS mysterious is why people insist on turning an honest attempt …
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There are numerous experts in all manner of relevant fields I'll ask you to name the top three. The cream of the crop that you would call to testify. Keep in mind that they'll be cross-examined. What I keep asking from such donkeys as you, is for a list of credible people who not being employed by the government in any way, have spoken out on behalf of the fairy tale? Got any? Just one. The list of such people is still growing, we gain at least one high profile person every week at the moment, Yes, phenomenal growth. …
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Redhorse got poems........unfortunately, they don't make any sense...... That's O.K., poems don't always have to........know what........I mean....? Yet another fine example of projection. One of the most incoherent, senseless, and indeed stupid posts in days is (I think) accusing me of stupidity. A free course in psychology. Right here at In These Times. Socialism rocks!!........dude.........
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Red, If you would like to join the debate, and contribute something besides baseless, nonsensical insults, you are welcome anytime. Otherwise, you're only offering additional proof that the "truth" movement's "science" is not based on facts, well-informed analysis and reasonable, provable conclusions, but merely on hateful emotion and a political agenda. It's your choice, naturally.
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Right Rabbit, you're a structural engineer now. You sure wear a lot of hats. I've answered a lot of questions on this thread, and on the 411 thread. Perhaps it's the truthie's turn to answer a few. Why doesn't a single "truth" site ever address the possibility that it was alkyduh that set explosives in the buildings? Wouldn't that make more sense? They certainly have a history of bombing things, they have motive, they were in on the plane thing. They would know right where to hit the buildings in order to miss their set-up. Why, of all the wacky and …
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I think Red was on the O.J. jury. There was a lot of science sacrificed for the sake of emotion and political revenge there too.
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Thank you Red, for confirming so clearly what forms the basis of your scientific method. Emotion, hate, and paranoia. What makes the notion that somebody would deliberately plant evidence against O.J. ridiculous, is that everybody loved O.J. Everybody wanted for him NOT to be the one that did that. Unfortunately, his behavior immediately afterward was exactly NOT that of an innocent man. The DNA evidence, and a LOT of other evidence, made it a lock. This is not to say that the prosecution didn't make some mistakes, but to actually believe that O.J. was innocent of those murders, as in the …
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Natalie you said; And there is also no debate (among professionals) that some combination of collision and heat damage caused the collapse, and that any further help from explosives would be quite unnecessary. Please give me names or links. I would love to know why these guys are considerd professionals and others are not. Rest assured Joe there are plenty of links I could give you. For now, perhaps it would best illustrate my point to ask you to name even one structural, civil, or fire engineering organization, association or institute that supports the CD theory. Natalie you said; There is …
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Natalie you said; Admittedly, there is some debate about the varying degrees of influence the fires vs. the structural damage had on the initiation of the collapse. Some engineers believe that the huge and encompassing fires alone, with insulation in place, would have been easily sufficient to bring down the towers. This of course doesn't bode well for the bombs in the building theory. Some believe that the collapses needed very little additional help beyond the plane damage, just a small shove from a little increased heat. Also not exactly supportive of the bombs in the buildings theory. Again Natalie …
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GOV. VENTURA: He was flying in a private jet. And when they had that mechanical malfunction that apparently killed everyone on board, and the jet was up there flying on automatic pilot; well it only took them a matter of minutes to scramble a fighter jet and have it up there on the wing. And had Mr. Stewart's plane, if it looked like it was going to go down and hit a metropolitan area, of course they would blow it out of the air. But when they saw it was just going to land in a field in Nebraska [sic. - …
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Joe, Has MIT commented recently on the final NIST reports on towers one and two? I haven't been able to find where they have, perhaps you know one way or another. One thing you do need to admit. Nowhere in ANY of the analysis by MIT, or ARUP, or NIST, or FEMA, or in the journals of the ASCE, JOM, NCSEA, etc, etc, does ANYONE even remotely suspect or postulate that explosives were planted in the buildings. In fact in some cases, they have gone out of their way to address the truthies and inserted paragraphs explicitly stating such. Does this …
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"the Dickhead Det.Furman...riding around LA with the blood sample it his pocket…" -- Redhorse Yes, I can read. Can you remember? Thanks for continuing to inform us about your reliance on bias, hate, and paranoia to the exclusion of real evidence. Actually an excellent little parallel to the methods employed by the "truth" movement.
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Joe, I'm happy to answer relevant questions. However, speculation as to whether our govt. might or might not be inclined to kill potentially several tens of thousands of people for whatever reason, based on a bunch of questionably sourced accounts of the CIA and such doing something a little shady in the past, is ridiculous and irrelevant. Such speculation would be promptly thrown out of any court except Judge Ito's, and rightly so. Red, so you don't think evidence was planted? Then how do you explain the DNA? Or does that simply just not exist?......like the hijackers?.......??......it was all faked? …
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Red, Still not sure if you think that evidence was planted, or not. First you say no, then you seem to say maybe. It doesn't appear obvious to me. If one talks about a police officer traveling around with blood samples from a suspect in his pocket, I think most reasonable people would infer that you meant to suggest that said officer might be engaging in the planting of blood evidence. Actually, I think it's Vannatter you're thinking of. The defense did indeed suspect evidence was planted as a result of him carrying it around in his pocket. And of course, …
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This is why Terry Allen wrote this article.
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Ah, that's the old Red I miss and need so much. Surely you know I was just anglin for a fix. Pretty good point I made though. Truthies and O.J. jurors both reject science and logic in favor of conspiracy theories with no basis in evidence, and venting hatred for "the man".
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Hi scorp, Just came across this article that I thought fit quite well with your post above. Not all, some are just in it for the money, but I think a large part of the "truth" movement is an extreme extension of the garden variety hatred and refusal to accept reality that emanates from the left. (another free psychology lesson) A few weeks ago I wrote a column on the anniversary of 9/11 that offhandedly dismissed 9/11 conspiracy theorists as "clinically insane." I expected a little bit of heat in response, but nothing could have prepared me for the deluge …
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Joe, Do you really perceive Condi Rice to be the kind of person that would deliberately allow U.S. citizens to be murdered in order to pursue some foreign policy objective? Many suspected that some kind of attack was likely. Nobody knew specifics. It's really no more complicated than that. What would you have advised, stripping everyone naked before they got on every plane in the country, and everyone on every plane coming into the country? Everybody stay home in their house and pull the curtains and turn out the lights and have the Post Office hold the mail? Lots of people …
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"The 9/11 conspiracy theories are not just loony, they are morally detestable. One of the doomed passengers of Flight 93 informed his mom by cell phone that they were about "to do something." Conspiracy nut Dylan Avery denies that this conversation ever took place. It was faked by, well, "them." Avery apparently doesn't find his own life or God's world interesting enough. He entertains himself by trying to erase the heroism of Flight 93. What a wonder that such a large imagination can fit within the compass of so small a man." (via Conspiracy Smasher)
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Well Red, this thread happens to be about 9/11 kook theories. If you want to comment on those, please do so. Otherwise, you should maybe go to the dailykos or some such. I wasn't referring to Hugo Chavez, silly. How the war in Iraq is going, and the hollow and hypocritical democrat accusations of immoral behavior are completely unrelated to what brought down the towers. I may be alone on this thread at this particular moment, but in the future Google will bring more inquiring minds that needn't be warped by bizarre, mindless and false theories that are based on nothing …
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scorp, Glad to see you're still out there. I guess Joe is working on his essay. I wonder what happened to Rabbit? Maybe he's gone back to school to get a structural engineering degree so he can be the first one to join the "scholars" for "truth". Take care now
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Yet another example of Steven E. Jones manipulating and misrepresenting a photograph. This all in the purported context of simply searching for the "truth". The excellent paper by Mark Roberts talked about on the above blog can be accessed here. (~8 mb pdf file)
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Wow Rabbit, You haven't lost your talent for misinterpreting information. The poll you cite still fails to ask anything close to the central claims of the "truth" movement. It's one thing to think that the administration might be hiding something, -- after all, when was the last time any administration of any country didn't do that regarding just about everything? But to stretch that question into meaning that everyone now thinks there were pre-planted bombs in the towers, or that a missile hit the pentagon, is a careless and sophomoric leap of logic. I'm quite sure that if the same question …
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That last post was really divorced from reality, Rabbit. You're sure everything's OK down there? Are you under the erroneous impression that every engineering firm on the planet is under the control of the U.S. Govt.? Seems like it. No, I'm quite confident that a poll conducted strictly among professional, certified engineers and architects would result in no more than a tiny fraction of a fraction agreeing with your little fantasies. After all, these guys and gals have way more than a high school education, and also a lot of real world experience in the areas that pertain to this subject. …
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Natalie said: "A little different than some dumb white bigoted Cartman type watching a propaganda video and concluding, "wow, did you see that?, no doubt that was a controlled demolition. It's so obvious!" I guess I should have said dumb white or black bigoted Cartman type. Didn't mean to leave you out, Red! My bad. Forgot about that outreach directive from.......Karl.......
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Tell me more about termite, Red.
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........We had begun our plunge down the rabbit hole....... ........The 9/11 Truth Movement invariably describes the mainstream account of 9/11 as the “government version” or “the official version.” In fact, the generally accepted account of 9/11 is made up of a multitude of sources: thousands of newspaper, TV, and radio reports produced by journalists from all over the world; investigations conducted by independent organizations and institutions, including the American Society of Civil Engineers, Purdue University, Northwestern University, Columbia University, the National Fire Protection Association, and Underwriters Laboratories, Inc.; eyewitness testimony from literally thousands of people; recordings and transcripts of phone …
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Hi Joe, Science and engineering questions are never accurately answered by watching google videos produced by biased people who are strictly motivated by profit and/or politics. Why does this simple and easily understood reality continuously escape you?
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"The key point of reference being that the WTC buildings...every one of them...fell at free fall speed , or faster....that’s what gave it away to the regular guy watching this on TV or a video…" Actually, Red, the buildings fell in more like at least 12.5 - 13 seconds, as opposed to ~9 seconds for freefall. Even some truthies admit as much as 16 seconds. Can you tell me how far a steel column section would travel in freefall in even 12.5 seconds? This freefall nonsense has long ago been given up on by everyone except the most stubborn and …
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For this too appear legit...the buildings should have taken at least 90 to 120 seconds to collapse...at least....3 to 10 minutes of crumbling dismantlment would have been better...and there is not way the steel frame core of that building shouldn't have fallen , because of some fire...any fire.... Two minutes, you say. Wow. Where did you do those calculations, on your fingers and toes? Red, I suspect you of many things, but somehow I don't suspect you are a structural engineer. I may be going out on a limb here, but I don't think you are an engineer or scientist of …
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So Joe, what makes you think that you know better than every (well, maybe 99%) structural, civil and fire engineer on the planet? What makes you think that you know better than 99% of architects on the planet? What makes you think that you know better than 84% of the general public that doesn't think the towers were brought down by anything other than planes, fire, and gravity. BTW, what is your theory on the Pentagon? If you've said so, I've forgotten. "Did you catch that? the tower's resistive systems played no role. The at least 85,000 tons of intact steel …
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Joe, I simply cited a generic calculation of the total energy generated by the collapse of the towers, in an attempt to illustrate the magnitude that was involved, and in order to account for the pulverization of the concrete and the supposed ejection of whatever steel columns that actually did occur. The amount of energy exerted by the upper block of floors was sufficient in spades to instantly crush the lower structure. That, Joe, is something that is unquestioned by anyone who actually understands the forces involved in such an event. In other words, 99.99 percent of structural engineers and even …
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Prescript: this response does not address your last two posts, Joe. -------- Joe, I apologize if I'm wrong, but I don't think this is all your work and your words. It looks like you're randomly cutting and pasting a lot of stuff and making very little effort to cite where it came from and who wrote it. Pasting other people's words is fine, but give them credit, and give us a chance to check their credentials and determine the purity of their motivations. There seems to be a lot of confusion regarding my simple attempt to quantify the huge amount of …
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Mike Taylor of the national Association of Demolition Contractors said the collapse of the WTC towers looked like a classic controlled demolition, it cascaded down like an implosion . Ronald Hambuger a structural engineer and contributor to FEMA and NIST reports said it appeared to me that charges had been placed in the building. No no no. You can't just drive by, throw this crap out and leave. Prove to us that you haven't taken these guy's words and opinions out of context, or simply made them up. Links. Proof. Context.
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Yes, Joe, I try to read what you present, but you need to throttle back on the litany thing. You continue to apparently think that you can somehow decide scientific and engineering questions by shallowly ticking off one dubious contention after another. Even if the Bush administration tried to spin or hide scientific reports that might work against their general policies, that is a far cry from murdering thousands of people in cold blood. I'm quite sure that the opposite party did their share of spinning and hiding of scientific reports to benefit their agenda. Does that mean that they must …
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Mike Taylor of the national Association of Demolition Contractors said the collapse of the WTC towers looked like a classic controlled demolition, it cascaded down like an implosion . Ronald Hambuger a structural engineer and contributor to FEMA and NIST reports said it appeared to me that charges had been placed in the building. Can we clear this up Joe? One thing at a time.
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The Democrats and Republicans are just two heads of the same monster so of course they have a hand in it to. You have to remember that both parties are being controlled by the same corporate and banking interests. Natalie you are a slave and dont even know it which makes it all the more worse for you. Do you realize what you're saying here Joe? You're saying that there are people in our govt, regardless of party, that would murder three, potentially tens of thousands of people in order to bow to "corporate and banking interests". Are you serious? This …
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Mike Taylor of the national Association of Demolition Contractors said the collapse of the WTC towers looked like a classic controlled demolition, it cascaded down like an implosion . Ronald Hambuger a structural engineer and contributor to FEMA and NIST reports said it appeared to me that charges had been placed in the building. Joe? Please?
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Yeah right Joe, and Republicans want to kill children with school lunch cuts. They want to poison you with arsenic in the water. Bush steered the hurricane toward New Orleans and then blew up the levies. People that aren't sheep laugh at this kind of nonsense. Whatever judgments were made with regards to the air quality at ground zero, to attempt to use that as some kind of "evidence" that these people were conscientiously trying to kill people is ridiculous, and I'm quite confident that the whole situation has been spun for political gain by the opposition. Maybe some misjudgments were …
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Joe, I'm afraid I must conclude that Able Danger is much ado about nothing. In fact, it appears that Shaffer might have much in common with another fraud recently discussed here -- Lauro Chavez. Both sound credible, smart, well spoken. But in reality, nothing but ego-centric bull-shitters. I think that Weldon loved what he heard -- sounded convincing, made Clinton look bad, good stuff. The IG report shows, however gingerly and circumspectly, that a principal public face of Able Danger, an Army reserve lieutenant colonel named Anthony Shaffer, who has worked in a variety of Defense Intelligence Agency "special" and …
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You still have not used my links!!!!!!!!!!!!! The last link where Kevin Ryan used the quotes was an inderct link of the quotes. If you want to see the original articles that the quotes came from then you need to go back to the top and use my links!!!!!!!! Wake up and open your eyes!!!!!!! USE MY LINKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Joe, I can't seem to find where you talked about Taylor and Hamburger before. Do us all a favor and post the links again. But I'm really starting to wonder if you have any concept of context. No building in history has …
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Joe, you still haven't addressed my original challenge: Can you prove to me that you haven't taken Mike Taylor and Ronald Hamburger out of context? You obviously brought them up as supportive of the controlled demo theory: Mike Taylor of the national Association of Demolition Contractors said the collapse of the WTC towers looked like a classic controlled demolition, it cascaded down like an implosion. Ronald Hambuger a structural engineer and contributor to FEMA and NIST reports said "it appeared to me that charges had been placed in the building". Do you think these guys support the controlled demo theory? Did …
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Thanks for bringing scholar.google to my attention, Joe. It appears to be an excellent way to cut through most of the nonsense perpetuated by unqualified individuals all over the Internet. But let's put in some words that make some sense to our argument, shall we? For instance, if we type in "world trade center" and "controlled demolition", (phrases in quotes beside each other) we get a grand total of 16 results, with only about 3 actually saying that is what caused the towers to collapse. The other 13 or so used the phrase "controlled demolition" in other contexts. In a general …
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I'm sure that's all very interesting Joe, but it's hardy relevant to this discussion. The sky seems to be constantly falling in your world, links vanish, all kinds of strange anomalies occur. I even change locations for you, but not for me. Amazing. Probably the FBI has infected your computer with self-destruct viruses because they could tell you were getting just a little too close. Thanks again for the heads up on the google scholar site. An excellent natural filter for all the nonsense out there. What was it in that poll? Oh yeah, the less education you have, the …
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Hmmm..... Still not a single solitary shred of evidence for controlled demo, or missiles in the pentagon, or a deliberate attempt to prevent the hijackers from being intercepted. Just more paranoid rantings, most of which are probably baseless, all of which are completely irrelevant to this discussion. Joe, you are illustrating that you have no credible argument for the above claims with each and every meaningless diatribe you post. If you think that the anti-Bush media wouldn't jump on your theories in a heartbeat if they thought for a moment there was anything credible about them, you simply are living in …
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I'm still not seeing anything I can sink my teeth into here, Joe. Just because there's a bunch of uninformed kooks in Colorado doesn't do a thing to debunk the exhaustive and thorough investigation that was done by NIST. Just as soon as one of them is able to get a paper published in a legitimate scientific or engineering journal, then we will will stand up and take notice. But, nobody has even come close to doing that. I haven't seen anyone in the truth movement that strikes me as able to do that. If you know engineers, structural I assume, …
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Joe, you're operating on the basis of a false premise. Some people in and out of government speculated early on that steel in the towers may have melted. That is a far cry from the govt. "lying". In addition, the term melt may have been used by some to mean sagging, softening or bending, which is what happened. Some people's remarks may have been taken out of context by reporters trying to make their stories more colorful. Nobody as far as I know produced any kind of "report" that stated categorically that steel melted, as in flowing rivers of goo. FEMA, …
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"This idea that a person needs to be an engineer or a physicist to understand that the planes could not knock down the towers in 56 and 102 minutes is ridiculous. Trusting experts that hide info is absurd." No, it's ridiculous to think that lay people, who wouldn't have the foggiest notion about how to design and build such structures, or how to deliberately demolish them, somehow are better able to render judgment on what caused them to collapse than people who do. It's almost equivalent to saying that you would trust your mailman to give you a root canal, or …
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The laws of physics for PhDs are no different for the laws of physics for college dropouts. Well, no, I guess not if you're comparing how the laws of physics affects them. But comparing how they might affect (apply) the laws of physics in order to build something or understand why it fell down reveals vast differences. Do you doubt that there are race car drivers that are better at driving cars than some race car designers even though the drivers couldn't do a decent job of designing the cars? I can't see how this statement does anything but support my …
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You're completely wrong on depreciation, computers, and even oriental rugs. I have no expertise in any of the above subjects, but I can tell just from a cursory glance that you are totally and woefully wrong. von Neumann Machines? You're completely wrong on those, too. What you say about them is totally false.
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psikeyhackr, Why in the world should I take the word of "H. Norton Riley of the Computer Science Department at California State Polytechnic University in Pomona, California" on computers or anything else? What gives him/her the authority to make sweeping, unsupportable statements such as: "Any discussion of computer architectures, of how computers and computer systems are organized, designed, and implemented, inevitably makes reference to the “von Neumann architecture” as a basis for comparison." This sounds like the kind of delusional bilge that Redhorse would buy into. What kind of dense gullible turnip do you think I am? Do you really believe …
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Excellent, psikeyhackr! Now, just take that brainlessly obtuse concept and apply it to the 9/11 truth crowd. In fact, apply it to yourself I'm afraid. I attempt to illustrate, employing the fact that your knowledge of economics, computers, and oriental rugs is superior to mine, how ridiculous it is for me to think that I am qualified to declare your conclusions on these subjects wrong, and thereby how silly it is for you or even me to think we are able to debunk the NIST report. And you don't seem to even get it. You seem unable to pick up on …
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Hey, scorp, Didn't see your post there before I did my last one. I like the tie-in with Horse to a joke! He's a joke that even.......he doesn't..........get? Remind you of anyone? Two word clue: John. Kerry. Two word clue, psikeyhackr: Evi dense Spellcheck.....clean up on page 16!
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mmmmmm.......depleted uranium dust yummy!! I think psycho-hacker's stuck back on pg. 15.
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Golly gee whiz, Joe. You're not making a very good case for these war-mongering "inside jobbers" being competent enough to pull off the precise and unbelievably clever operations on 9/11 that involved fooling the entire world into thinking that 19 Arab fanatics carried out the attacks. I'm surprised people so bumbling and stumbling were able to fool all the world's structural and fire engineers and professional demolitionists into thinking that mere structural damage, heat and gravity brought down the towers. It's amazing that they've been able to keep all this a secret for so long, when everything else they try to …
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Joe, it's not good form, and in fact probably technically illegal, to reprint the entirety of ultra-liberal hack journalist's hard work, especially not without citing the source. Again, just because many people, including the previous administration, thought that Saddam Hussein should be removed from power is not evidence for mass murder on the part of anyone except Atta & co. on 9/11. Not even close. Just because Jefferson said "separation of church and state" in a letter to some Baptists doesn't mean that the 1st amendment was written to imply that kids can't pray or read the bible at school. …
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Neocons turn on Bush for incompetence over Iraq war Julian Borger London Guardian Saturday, November 4, 2006 Julian Borger wrote another interesting account a while back: At the head of the group was a man by the name of Farouk Hijazi, President Saddam Hussein's new ambassador to Turkey and one of Iraq's most senior intelligence officers. He had been sent on one of the most important assignments of his career - to recruit Osama bin Laden....... .......If his flirtation with Baghdad is consummated, the struggle with the implacable zealot from Saudi Arabia could be drifting towards an exceedingly bloody end-game. …
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I knew you'd have a sensible explanation. I can always count on you for those. BTW, I'm still waiting for your thoughts on the Pentagon. Don't dodge me on this. And I hope my request for chapter and verse hasn't gone by the wayside.
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But I do wonder if you read it and noticed how I combined the three so they could help to support each other. Yes, I noticed that you went off on another source tangent toward the end, but only because I carefully compared the original with your paste job. You need to make it more clear who's saying what. Sources are important because biases, motivations and degrees of expertise need to be taken into account. When you meander on pasting this and that in no sensible context, you're really hurting your own cause and credibility.
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I like and appreciate what you have to say. You may want to give poor Joe a rest; he is not very stable in the best of times, and he is becoming loopier by the day. Thanks, scorp, you may be right. We don't want another suicide watch ala Rabbit. However, my intent from the start of this thread was to talk to many more than those who choose to post here. I use this forum kindly afforded by ITT, and the averse participation of colorful souls like Rabbit and Joe, to hopefully steer a few "skulls full of mush" away …
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Speculation and theorizing do not constitute malpractice. On the contrary, they are essential ingredients in the reaching of valid conclusions. You sophomorically mischaracterize this process as some kind of crime, Joe. In fact, if the "truth" movement had anyone qualified to participate in this process, they would be respected. Such is not the case. No serious professional engineer in a relevant field has voiced suspicions of explosives being used. No serious investigative journalist has. No serious politician has. There are hundreds of journalists and politicians that would give their right arm for this trash to be true. Such is not the …
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Joe you said: "I think you are going insane because I had linked to the original sources twice on Oct 25, 2006 at 1:38 AM before you asked me for links on Oct 25, 2006 at 4:24 and so I again gave you links to the original sources twice on Oct 28, 2006 at 9:18 PM." If you wouldn't post entire novels at a time, someone might have a chance of deciphering what point you're trying to make. I see now that there are links to the original sources of the quotes, however, I remember also that this was a post …
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Now you seem to want to pick apart Bazant's use of the term "blast". I think what he's referring to is the huge force of the jet, its fuel and its contents, along with elements of the building it took out along the way, blasting its way into the interior of the building, not so much the explosions of the fuel. That wouldn't exactly be a gentle breeze, however. If you think that any kind of fireproofing anywhere would hold up to such force, you're in la-la land. If you think that the fireproofing that was there was perfectly and completely …
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One important point Joe, is that many people who were familiar with the design of the towers, and people who were familiar with what can happen to steel and steel trusses in a fire, knew that the towers would probaby collapse, and tried to sound the warning. On top of that, police in helicopters could see that collapse was imminent, about ten minutes before. They described "red hot" fires. Ahem. Umm.......the Pentagon?
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Joe, you said I said: That, Joe, is something that is unquestioned by anyone who actually understands the forces involved in such an event. In other words, 99.99 percent of structural engineers and even still employed physicists on the planet. You take great exception to this statement, but then proceed to illustrate my point. You list Gordon Ross and Judy Wood, neither of whom is qualified to render judgment on matters of structural physics, and the complicated relationships between steel, heat, and load redistribution. Neither of whom has been privy to the vast amounts of detailed data, testimony and computing power …
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Let me clear something up for the apparently nuance challenged among us that can't recognize a "botched joke" when they see it. When I said that many journalists and politicians would give their right arm for all this baloney to be true, I certainly didn't mean to say that they would like it to happen, or would let it happen if they knew their rivals were planning it. But, they would rub their palms together in glee if it was discovered that their arch political enemies -- the Bush administration, neocons, Pat Robertson, take you pick -- were involved in such …
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Bazant published the first quantitative mechanical analysis explaining why the World Trade Center collapsed. Submitted within days after the collapse, it has stood up to later scrutiny and was translated in seven languages. Tip of the iceberg (inverted)
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Thanks for keeping it short and to one point, Joe. I'll listen to Charles and give you my further thoughts...... Why don't you want to talk about the Pentagon? Prof James Fetzer doesn't think that what hit it was flight 77.
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Joe, If you don't understand how blatantly inappropriate it was for Ryan to write that letter in the way that he did, I barely quite know how to proceed. But I'll try. First of all, whether or not he wrote the letter on his own time is not really important. However, I'd tend to think he probably did do it on company time. I've seen plenty of people do plenty of extra-curricular stuff on company time, and I assume you have as well. My reference to letterhead was meant to be colorful, but important to illustrate the fact that he represented …
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First of all I am shocked that you belive that the buildings collapsed due to fires at 2000F melting the steel. Jet fuel can not get that hot. Your ignorance amazes me. Don’t you know that is absolutely and utterly impossible? Natalie it defies the laws of physics. Not even NIST says the fires reached any where close to those temperatures. Where in the world do you get the idea that I think that temperatures were anything other than what NIST concluded that they were after extensive investigation? Where in the world do you get the idea that I think that …
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You're right, Joe, everyone isn't in lock-step agreement with exactly what mechanisms initiated the collapse. This is perfectly normal in these types of situations. But why does this understandable and wholly expected debate about the precise cause of the collapse have to mean that there were explosives planted in the towers? If one camp believes that fire alone would have doomed the towers, and the other believes that the structural damage brought them to the brink, why in the world is there a need to invoke other things there are no evidence for? NIST comes down somewhat in the middle. And, …
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Upon doing another five or ten seconds of Internet research, it seems that the former head of UL retired a little prematurely due to prostate cancer at around the age of 63. Perhaps this is why it was perceived by some as "sudden".
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I may have made a mistatement. I was under the impression that UL had tested the truss assemblies at the time of construction of the WTC towers. However, it appears that they did not, and in fact, it would appear that nobody did. I think that the confusion caused by Ryan's letter must be based on some kind of miscommunication or misunderstanding in relaying the fact that UL had done recent tests, and that the trusses had performed according to expectations, with fireproofing intact, that is. Other references to fire ratings on columns and trusses are based on the fact that …
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You said: What is your evidence for saying, or at least implying that they have some kind of adversarial or selfish attitude toward other research organizations? Perhaps if NIST would provide the computer simulations for the scientific community to evalulate, they might be taken seriously??? How about providing a 1/100 model to demonstrate the collapse is possible in the way that NIST states? How about something other than them just saying so and providing PROOF????? It’s pretty funny that if the NIST information is so ROCK SOLID that they won’t debate scientists that have refuted MUCH of NIST’s work. They absolutely …
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Hmmm...... it would appear that truthies are far better creative writers, copiers and pasters than they are scientists and engineers. It would appear that they have endless enthusiasm for cherry-picking quotes and warping the context that's been the result of countless hours of honest and thorough investigation. Truthies seem perfectly willing to use certain information and test results from the NIST investigation, but they then make an inexplicable leap of logic and declare that the conclusions of NIST are all wrong. They apparently think that these guys are so stupid that they would publish all sorts of obvious contradictory evidence and …
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Cant you try to debate on the facts if you still think there is some thing left to debate? The fact , Joe, is that you've managed to ignore my fact-based question just above about UL certifying steel, and then accuse me of not debating on the facts. The fact is that Ryan made an erroneous implication, one that's been promulgated all through the web. Type the phrases "certified the steel" and "world trade center" into a search engine and you'll see what I mean. You'll get stuff back like this: "Underwriters Laboratories is the company that certified the steel components …
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So what is it, Joe? Star Wars Beam Weapon? (Wood -- don't miss the mp3s!!) Thermite? (Jones) Mini-Nukes? (Pegelow) Holograms? (perhaps it was that LSD guy) Remote control planes? (Fetzer) Missiles? (everyone at one time or another) Or could it possibly be that what we all saw that day, and what people on the ground in contact with the flights heard, is actually correct? 19 hate-filled bigoted muslim murderers planned, practiced and finally after several years executed a clever, but not terribly sophisticated operation that was largely, but not completely successful. It depended not so much on technical skill as …
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Seems that Judge Judy also believes in levee bombs!! Couldn't find any hint of political bias here at all. Nothing but boring mechanical engineering stuff.
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Come on, Joe, Everything you say is tainted by the fact that you and the people you cite simply aren't qualified to say it. That's the bottom line. THAT's the end of story. You have no more business trying to dissect the collapses than I have trying to calculate the trajectory for the space shuttle's re-entry. We both crash and burn. If there is anyone qualified and credible that has disagreed with the NIST report to the point of suspecting supplementary explosives, please point them out. So far, everyone who's had even a thin veneer of qualification and credibility has turned …
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Again, If there is anyone qualified and credible who disagrees with the NIST report to the point of suspecting supplementary explosives, please point them out. Names, titles, education, experience.
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It's not too late, Joe. Resist. Come away from the dark side. Use the force, Joe.
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One could also ask how someone unable to write a coherent sentence or even spell correctly could possibly be in a position to so confidently contradict the opinion of every sane engineering professional on the planet. psik is intent on relating the events of 9/11 to economics. There might be something to this. The PV of the R of the fireproofing on the floor trusses in the WTC towers was depreciated by forces imparted upon it during a turbulent period. This caused an overheating, and subsequently a dip which was felt outward in surrounding areas. A crash ensued and the whole …
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Terry Allen, the author of our subject article, said this about David Ray Griffin in July: When David Ray Griffin, a theologian by trade, said it was “physically impossible by laws of physics” for the planes alone to have brought down the towers, I asked what engineers had confirmed that. “I haven’t talked to any because they would be too afraid to tell the truth,” he said. “How would you be able to protect your family if you were to accuse the government?” he asked, accusing the government. Recently, her suspicions were echoed by the very publisher of one of …
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Joe, welcome back. From the dark side, I mean. Your new website is literally a breath of fresh air for all those truthies laboring under the anxiety of knowing deep down that there just isn't a dang thing to all these nutty theories, and have been hoping for a low hanging branch to grab just before their quickly sinking truth floatie was about to go over the falls. I sensed a fresh new spring in your type, and I'm usually not wrong about such things. These same people used to proclaim themselves utterly fascinated with speculation that no plane hit the …
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So the great Daniel Hopsicker is wrong when it comes to bombs, and lil ol Joe knows better. And you've created some cute clubs -- MIHOP and LIHOP. I've got new for ya, Joe. Neither you or Danny has any solid proof of what you claim. At least Hopsicker has sense enough not to believe in blatant fairy tales. There might be a few grains of truth in his reporting, but it looks to me like his overall analysis is likely off the mark. It's like all the Clinton murder/drug running CT's and all the Murrah Federal Building more than one …
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Joe, Yes, we have complicated relationships with other governments and a myriad of diplomatic entanglements to deal with. Yes, we sometimes might actually work with terrorists in order to further the goal of stopping terrorism. Yes, terrorists had relationships with Americans, Germans, and probably countless others. Unfortunately, the fact that our intelligence agencies are huge govt. bureaucracies and until recently were precluded by law and pride not to share information, leads to the erroneous conclusion that their bungling is somehow an indication of being purposefully harmful to their own country. This is the basic fallacy of conspiratorial thinking. It colors everything, …
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First of all Joe, cite the source of your all too complete, and unattributed reproduction of someone else's intellectual property. © Copyright 2006, National Security Whistleblowers Coalition. Information in this release may be freely distributed and published provided that all such distributions make appropriate attribution to the National Security Whistleblowers Coalition. Secondly, your continuing to prattle on without any semblance of context or continuity doesn't prove anything, except that you have absolutely no credible evidence of an "inside job". Context. That is what is missing from all of your posts.
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No Joe, you've provided no evidence, other than for what everybody already knows. Our intelligence agencies are big lumbering sloths, and they're hog-tied by incompetence, political correctness, ass-covering and territorialism. This is an unassailable reality. In fact, Sibel Edmonds is an excellent illustration of my points from a couple posts ago. She and others have been trying to draw attention to this kind of malfeasance, and the powers that be are working hard to maintain their status quo. But, not because they are covering up or participated in some grand scheme to bomb the WTC, or allow 9/11 to happen. That …
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Joe, Apparently Sibel's not fond enough of the "inside job" theory to make mention of it on her site. And answering Alex Jones' leading questions with "I wouldn't be surprised" is a far cry from her actively believing in an inside job, and an even farther cry from believing in nutty theories like controlled demolition. But, now that you have provided evidence that she has collaborated with a charlatan such as Alex Jones, I'll know better than to take anything else she says seriously. It's a pretty reliable barometer. You know what I find a little strange and suspicious? That she …
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I think you will like to here about some of the LATEST structural engineers who have come to agree with the other structural engineers (that I have posted on this thread a few times) that had already said the WTC was a CD. Also you may want to know about the tests and experiments that have been done around the world by scientists that support Steven Jones’ theory. First of all, I don't think you've provided us with any credible structural engineers here on this forum, much less anyone credible. If you are aware of someone, here or abroad, please provide …
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Let's take these one by one. First of all, Jones: Pros: * By some accounts has done credible work in the area of cold fusion. (haven't researched completely what other physicists think about this) * Has published several papers in relevant journals related to this work, and perhaps some other physics work. * Has earned several teaching awards. * Comes across as likable and credible. Cons: * Has some extremely obscure and controversial views on religion. * Definitely has a political/ideological agenda, which he demonstrated in the first public talk he gave on the subject of 9/11. * Has no expertise …
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pg. 2 * And, a Professor emeritus at BYU, who's field is actually relevant, had this to say about Jones: Dear Editor, After reading in the Daily Herald the presentations made by Professor Steven E. Jones (BYU Physics) to students at UVSC and BYU, I feel obligated to reply to his "Conspiracy Theory" relating to the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center (9/11/01). I have studied the summary of the report by FEMA, The American Society of Civil Engineers and several other professional engineering organizations. These experts have given in detail the effects on the Towers by the impact …
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Similarly, a professor of fire protection engineering, and the former chief of the fire science and engineering division of the agency now investigating the world trade center disaster, wrote that the world trade center buildings could not have collapsed due to jet fuel fires, that evidence was being destroyed, and that there was no real investigation into the collapses. You mean this professor of fire protection engineering?: A suggested cause of the fire-induced collapse of the World Trade Towers J. G. Quintiere, , a, M. di Marzoa and R. Beckerb Department of Fire Protection Engineering, University of Maryland, College Park, …
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You said: * Definitely has a political/ideological agenda, which he demonstrated in the first public talk he gave on the subject of 9/11. I have seen no economic/political/ideological agenda from Steven Jones other than to look at “ALL” the evidence no matter where it leads and what it will show!!!!! But if he does than I will toss Jones from the growing list of scientist who are exposing the lie and I expect you to do the same of any and all scientist who may have an agenda, political ties or conflict of interest!!! Do NOT be a coward and hypocrite …
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You said: apparently for purposes of being able to then mischaracterize the photographs. Number one we know it is NOT Aluminum!!!!!!!!! I wasn't talking about the "metal waterfall", which of course could be any number of things, I was talking about the picture of the large chunk of debris he labels previously molten metal. This is merely a chunk of compressed floors, which is evidence of pancaking, but not of molten steel, or molten anything. However, the aspect that's most relevant to Jones' credibility, is that he's altered the photo. He's changed it from a recognizable object, complete with paper with …
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"... the upper block was blown up" --- Manuel Garcia Manuel Garcia a native New Yorker who works as a physicist at the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in California with a PhD in Aerospace & Mechanical Engineering, from Princeton. His technical interests are generally in fluid flow and energy, specifically in gas dynamics and plasma physics.....
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"I have found no discussion of the distribution of mass within the building in terms of more steel being toward the bottom. So I still have no idea how much steel and concrete were on the floors where the planes hit." The fact that the steel support columns were more robust near the bottom, and therefore more massive, is of little consequence to the collapse mechanism. The important thing to remember is that the floors, and the strength of their connections to these columns, were virtually identical all the way down, except for the few mechanical floors. The floors were basically …
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That's exactly right. There were indeed examples of this. And yes, because of progressive collapse.
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No, sorry Lights, but that is evidence only of an effect on steel resulting from a terrorist attack by 8-10 deranged murderous criminals using airliners as cruise missiles. You'll notice that real scientists, like the ones who wrote the paper, or any real scientists for that matter, don't suspect what the biased, ulterior-motivated pseudo-scientists @ journal of 9/11 studies suspect.
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I did provide documentation of this, a few posts above. But, here it is again.
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What exactly is your point, psikey? Does your thinking somehow hinge on filing cabinets? Your caginess is intriguing, but why don't you come out and explain so someone other than yourself can know just what you're thinking? Welcome, recursive prophet. They usually close these discussions after six months, so not sure how much time is left. My first post on page one contains all the information you'll need to refute virtually every contention made by the "truth" movement.
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Psikey, You didn't pay any attention whatsoever to what I wrote after you first posted again here most recently. You ignored the fact that the greater gauge of the steel columns as they descended in height was irrelevant to the collapse mechanism because the floors were simply stripped from them. I see that you haven't really read the NIST reports, you simply did word searches. If you had, you would understand that the key factors in the collapse were the enormous mass of the upper blocks of the towers, (~60 million kg.) and the inability of the structure below to resist …
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Arpie, Thanks for acknowledging and appreciating our efforts. Your question about the cell phone calls, which were more likely airphone calls, is answered quite sensibly at: http://tinyurl.com/ynju6y This is an excellent collection of even more answers to frequently asked questions: http://tinyurl.com/236j7b
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Psikey said:
If you were constructing a 10 story building then the 1st story would have to hold the weight of 9 stories, the 2nd story would have to hold 8, the 3rd 7, etc. etc. So the amount of steel and concrete should taper as you go up the building. The same applies to the WTC. Why doesn't the NIST report tell us the tons of steel and concrete on every floor of the building? How much steel was on the floors where the planes hit? Doesn't it take more jet fuel to turn 400 tons of steel into licorice …
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Quote: Psikey -- And of course there is the minor detail that you only gave one number for two buildings that were hit on different floors. Which building is that number for and what is the other number?
I stated which building the number referred to above, yesterday. It's up to you to calculate the second value.Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement
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No, not at all Arpie. I addressed countless arguments put forth by Joe, but many of them were simply irrelevant and just plain nutty. I don't care to rehash the literally hundreds of ridiculous and absolutely off-topic tangents he brought up, but if you have a specific question or two of his you'd care to resubmit, I'd be happy to address it. No, I don't receive any money or anything from anyone for anything related to 9/11, nor have I ever. It would certainly be nice if I did, but I don't. I don't work for the govt., and never have. …
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Psikey -- If the tons of concrete and steel that is supposedly being crushed is so great compared to the amount supposedly doing the crushing then it makes sense for them not to tell us.
The only thing that had to be "crushed" in order for the collapse to commence, was a floor or two's worth of column connections. Once this was done, and easily so considering the dynamic forces that were exerted, the rest of the mass of concrete and steel only helped the collapse along by adding mass. It makes sense for them not to tell us, (and I'm …Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement
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Hmmm....wouldn't it be quicker to search them if they were on your hard drive? You really need to take the time to actually read the reports though, and stop just doing word searches. You are missing 99.9% of the context. It's easy to see why you don't have even the slightest understanding of what caused the collapses, and why they were pre-ordained to continue once they started. If you don't have any knowledge of structural or fire engineering, or physics, what makes you think that you would have any idea which search terms are even relevant?
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That is extremely brilliant Natalie. Where did I say I was never reading any of the reports? How many words do you think are worth searching for?
Well, if you read them, you obviously didn't understand them. If you had understood them, you would have chosen different words to search for, or more likely wouldn't have felt a need to search for any.The first report I decided to investigate was NIST - Final Report on the Collapse of the World Trade Center Towers. It is 298 pages. So I thought about what I could do to reduce that and decided …
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pg. 2
So one has to wonder what the people at NIST are doing, so that is why I started studying these files. Now if you don't like the way I research it that is too damn bad, but I am the one telling the world that the self proclaimed world renowned experts at the NIST do not consider the quantity of concrete in the World Trade Centers important enough to mention in their 11,000 pages of reports. What exactly has been stopping you from going to the NIST site and searching the files yourself and proving me wrong?
Actually, I …Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement
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Hi Joe, Welcome back. Yes, I certainly agree that there may have been infiltration galore. It's a very difficult and complicated situation there, and there are no easy answers. I was among the 75% or so of Americans that approved of the whole thing early on, before it became apparent just how difficult the newly unleashed politics and long suppressed hatreds would be to manage. Along with most people, I am feeling pretty discouraged about the whole thing about now. I still hold out hope that in the long run, this pressure cooker will equalize. I believe that this process could …
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Perhaps you've stumbled upon a point, Psikey, that for more universal understanding of just why the towers collapsed, it would have been good for NIST to have included a table that tabulated floor by floor mass distribution. However, my impression of the report is that it is not really intended to be fully understood by people uneducated in structural engineering, architecture, physics etc, whom AFAIK haven't missed such a table. One could certainly argue that it should have been written differently, and I have a feeling that NIST in retrospect feels the same way considering the onslaught of criticism they've endured …
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I certainly don't pretend to know how best to deal with the Arab world, which seems to be basically living in another century. Maybe the best thing to do is just leave. I don't know. I do wish that Bush would be a little more open to advice from others, perhaps even from folks like you, Joe. However, I do have a belief in the power of democracy, the people, the vast majority of whom are not interested in the same kinds of self-serving, nationalistic, or tribal goals that certain thug leaders are. I think that average, ordinary Arabs would be …
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For the most gagged, she sure has a lot to say! I'm always suspicious of people like this, who are able to put out endless seemingly fascinating diverse details, yet never are able to give us any credible conclusions or a sensible narrative. What does it all mean? What concrete proof does she offer? Could it be that she's simply a manipulatin' bitch? Joe, all you ever do is stir the pot, and throw in any ingredient that fits in with your conspiratorial imagination. You continue to reinforce my theory -- you don't really have any credible proof of bombs, missiles, …
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I see very little there that could be construed as a deliberate attempt to murder U.S. civilians. USS Liberty was attacked by accident, anything else simply wouldn't make any sense. Same ol paranoid anti-Israel propagandists want you to believe otherwise. Pearl Harbor was another example of us underestimating the cunning of an enemy, and being perhaps a little lax, to boot. Just like 9/11. It was not "allowed" to happen. Northwoods was never approved, and was never a plan to kill Americans. It's not even clear if it was intended to kill anyone. It's actually evidence against 9/11 inside job theories. …
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Far be it from me Joe to understand why you would bring up an attack by another country on us to support your contention that the US routinely conducts operations that sacrifice its own people. Putting that aside however, I'm surprised you neglected to include this among your exhaustsive, yet mostly outdated pastings: IMRA Newsletter US Agency confirms Sinking of USS Liberty was Accident By Nathan Guttman, Haaretz Correspondent Haaretz 9 July 2003 WASHINGTON - New documents released this week by America's National Security Agency support Israel's version of a long-festering controversy between the two countries: Israel's sinking of an American …
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So what's your point, Joe? Even if the Liberty incident is as you say, which I don't believe to be the case, how does this support the notion that our country intentionally murdered 3000 of its own people on 9/11, and potentially thousands more? Do you know how this evidence would be referred to in a court of law? Irrelevant. It would seem that recent releases by the NSA, along with what was divulged by the Judge in my post above pretty much put this to bed. I know it's an emotional issue for survivors and families, and others, but that …
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To tell you the truth, I'd heard about the Liberty incident before Joe mentioned it, but I was not really aware of all the controversy surrounding it. Upon learning about it, I can't help but draw parallels with the current 9/11 "truth" debate. The first thing that struck me about the "truth" movement was that the whole thing just doesn't make any sense. It doesn't make any sense that our government would murder its own civilians, certainly not on that scale, for any conceivable foreign policy reason. Or any reason for that matter. And, it doesn't make any sense that Israel …
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Ironically, CNN today finally realized that the 9/11 truth movement is infected with Nazi sympathizers and reality deniers: PAULA ZAHN: We have all heard some absolutely incredible 9/11 conspiracy theories. The web of course is full of them. But tonight we're bringing one out that feeds on racism out in the open. We were absolutely shocked by one recent poll that found out that one in every three Americans believe the terror attacks were not the work of America's enemies, but some sort of inside job. And Deborah Feyerick found a smaller percentage who believe an even uglier theory. …
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Actually, I addressed "Northwoods" long ago, on another thread here at ITT long before Joe entered any discussions, AFAIK:
Item 1: Operation Northwoods "Loose Change", (LC hereafter) tells us about a series of proposals that were allegedly presented by the military to officials in the JFK administration, some of which arguably involved deliberate acts of murder in order to justify military action against Cuba. Presumably, this is evidence that murdering thousands on 9/11 is well within America's propensity. First of all, one can't help but notice the blind willingness of the LC "skeptics" to accept that the Northwoods documents are …
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Natalie-So now Joe has updated his Liberty posts, what say you? And how can even the few Professors with relevant backgrounds agree there is reason to doubt what happened?
I responded to Joe re: Liberty above, I assume you didn't see it before you posted. There is virtually nobody of any relevant background or education that embraces the 9/11 "theories". Jones has been exposed as a photo and quote manipulator, and a shallow, biased researcher. There's scarcely a structural or civil engineer among them, but there's computer programmers, philosophers, history professors and theologians a plenty. I'm sure you're interested in the …Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement
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Do you believe that this government would never sacrifice any citizens in the name of national security? It would allow 3 thousand soldiers to die but not ANY civilians? In the name of the greater good? Certainly our use of air power suggests we have little regard for Iraqi civilians. Could we not call on our own to possibly offer up their lives in a just cause? If not, how would you justify sending so many young men to die while those they are dying for can’t be called upon for any similar sacrifice?
I don't think it makes any sense …Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement
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"And believe me, I realize Natalie is as far to the right on the Bell Curve as she is in her political world view..... Just so you know, RP, Joe is even further to the right than I am. He doesn't even want to pay his taxes and has an issue with democracy:
scorp You think Im a socialist? You are so far off. I am a pure conservative. Wich is not what Bush is at all. The neo cons have totaly distorted what a conservative is. A true conservative is one who stands for the protection of our constitution the …
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Denier's Conference Hold onto your binoculars, bird lovers. This so-called "9/11 Accountability Conference" to be held February 23-25 at Chandler's Crown Plaza San Marcos is being organized by — get this — a gen-u-wine Holocaust denier. You heard this cuckoo correctly. The crackpot parade descending on Chandler to discuss why the attacks on 9/11 were an inside job by George W. Bush & Co. are to be led by Eric D. Williams, author of the self-published tome The Puzzle of Auschwitz, which claims there were no gas chambers at the infamous Nazi concentration camp, that Jews were not systematically murdered there, …
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Joe and Natalie: my favorite ITT debaters. You have to admit she really is clever, Joe. Far more than I, and I suspect even you. Have to tell you she is winning overall. Hard to explain why,but 2 big reasons pop out. She is incredibly adept at dialectic, though the effect is weakened by repeated and totally irrelevant ad homs.
Thanks for some of that RP, but I take exception with your ad hom characterization. If anything, I've been the greatest victim of this throughout this thread. In fact, you yourself have seen fit to suspect me of being some kind …Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement
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Do I believe you work in some way, on whatever level, for me and my tax dollars? Yes, I still strongly suspect that, but perhaps it is but wishful thinking. If only our taxes could always reap such value in terms of the competence of those they employ.
I assure you, it is indeed wishful thinking. It so fascinates me that I get accused of this. It's not just me, but apparently anyone who dares to present a coherent and effective rebuttal. I'm flattered that you think what I write might qualify for compensation, but...if only!! Actually, the govt. itself seems …Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement
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Here's a link to the video that goes along with the CNN transcript I reproduced above. It should be noted that Christopher Bollyn and Eric Hufschmid are featured in both the CNN piece and in Steven E. Jones' footnotes.
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No offense taken, RP, because I've been laughing at these assertions for a long time now, knowing of course that they couldn't be further from the truth. But it continues to fascinate, and I guess flatter in some strange way. I think now you understand my frustration at Joe's lengthy posts consisting of disparate supposedly relevant coincidences. They mean nothing until put together into a credible, verifiable and reasonably concise narrative, and in fact tend to weaken his case, whatever that exactly is. I could surely use the same technique to superficially advance virtually ANY idea, as could you. But you …
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OK, I think you're saved from the virus. Perhaps not by me alone, but I congratulate you on critically thinking through this minefield of disinformation and coming to the correct conclusions, regardless of the mists of suspicion still lingering in your mind. You are correct, there was no deliberate implosion of the WTC, there was no missile fired into the Pentagon and the hijackers were not "allowed" to do what they did. Fascinating propositions to some, but non of it fits with the cold hard facts and simple physics. You are also correct to make the point that governments, certainly …
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THE STRUCTURAL ANALYSIS CARRIED OUT BY THE FIRM OF WORTHINGTON, SKILLING, HELLE & JACKSON IS THE MOST COMPLETE AND DETAILED OF ANY EVER MADE FOR ANY BUILDING STRUCTURE. THE PRELIMINARY CALCULATIONS ALONE COVER 1,200 PAGES AND INVOLVE OVER 100 DETAILED DRAWINGS.
What's missing in your analysis, Joe, is that nobody involved in the design of the WTC today believes in the controlled demolition fantasy. These guys didn't even fire test the trusses back then before using them. They didn't have computers. They didn't have any real knowledge of the behavior of fire on this large construction system. Even recent buildings have …Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement
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Joe, You have picked out some 20 or so quotes from NIST in the past two posts. You have sought to use the information in these quotes to support your position. You seem to think that NIST is capable of putting out all these fine factoids that you use and for some strange reason trust, and then you conveniently choose to reject NIST's final conclusion on the matter at hand. Why?
NIST found no corroborating evidence for alternative hypotheses suggesting that the WTC towers were brought down by controlled demolition using explosives planted prior to September 11, 2001. NIST also did …
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Mike Taylor of the national Association of Demolition Contractors said “It cascaded down like an implosion”
Mike Taylor doesn't believe in CD.Ronald Hambuger a structural engineer and contributor to FEMA and NIST reports said “It appeared to me that charges had been placed in the building”.
Ronald Hamburger doesn't believe in CD. Lots of people thought it looked like something explosive happened, but then lots of things look like a lot of things they aren't. In fact, it was the enormous force of the upper block falling into the lower that provided the energy that was mistaken by some for …Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement
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It is not our duty to take what the government tells us as truth. But it is our duty to insure that what our government tells us is truth.
OK, then contact some people who actually know how to analyze this stuff. Seek out some independent structural or civil engineers with good reputations, and make your case to them. There are literally thousands of engineering firms all over the world with email addresses galore. Somebody, somewhere submit your theories to a legitimate scientific or engineering journal or publication for peer review by people who actually know something other than the U.S. …Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement
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Natalie you know that there are Civil Engineers, and Fire and Safety and Demolition Engineers as well as Architects who say it was a CD!
I have to disagree. There may be a tiny handful of such people, but it seems like every time someone claims to be a "civil engineer", or a "structural engineer", it turns out that they are either rabidly ideologically biased, fudging their credentials or their experience and expertise are not relevant to the situation. It's like one of those "MDs" you see on TV pushing the latest hair growth miracle product, and when 60 min. does …Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement
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“World Trade Center disaster investigators are refusing to show computer visualizations [i.e. models] of the collapse of the Twin Towers despite calls from leading structural and fire engineers”.
Actually, the headline is misleading. It implies that NIST has these simulations, but will not show them. These simulations were not done because NIST didn't see them as a priority given their other mandates. They are open to the possibility of future work in this area, so the tone of the headline doesn't really match the facts of the article. But, it gets people's attention. I don't think the engineers wishing for the …Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement
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We see no evidence to suggest that the WTC "had been losing money for years", was "a disaster", or "under-tenanted", as the original story claims. In fact it seems the reality was just the opposite: it was doing very well. There's no reason to believe the asbestos problems were unmanageable, or that the WTC was a "legal and financial timebomb", either. So the next time someone tells you that the towers had to be demolished because they were a white elephant, don't let it go: ask them for supporting references, and see if their claims really stand up to scrutiny.
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RP, you bounce back and forth like a ping-pong ball. First I think you're cured of this disease, you say you are, and then you seem to have had a relapse. Or are you just having fun playing the referee? Why don't you join the game? And why don't both of you pick a topic, AND STAY ON IT. Joe floods the place with disconnected quotes and neglects to tie them together in any kind of context, and I'm labeled "losing" because I don't address each and every one within an hour, putting aside not even knowing exactly what the point …
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Simpson Gumpertz & Heger Inc (SGH) developed global models of the World Trade Center (WTC) towers using finite elements to gain an understanding of the roles of the aircraft impact damage and the subsequent fires in the WTC towers with respect to structural stability and sequential failures of components and subsystems and to determine the probable sequence of structural responses that let to initiation of global collapse. The study was conducted as part of the investigation on the WTC disaster by the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST). The finite-element global models of the WTC towers developed simulated the structural …
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Each of these theories claimed large scale agreement among scientist and engineers! Large scale agreement among scientist and engineers my ass!
Joe, Pretty much all those comments were made long before the NIST report was final. The same NIST report that was the result of examining hundreds of photos, dozens of hours of video, conducting hundreds of interviews, and the performing of thousands of professional engineer man hours of evaluation, calculation and computer simulation work. Most of those comments are in the context of preliminary speculation based on limited knowledge of the building's design, the extent of the structural damage, and …Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement
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I agree Joe that more could have and should have been done to protect people from asbestos post-collapse. However I don't agree that the asbestos problem was so great that it couldn't have been dealt with over time with a variety of measures pre-collapse. Ironically, some speculate that had the asbestos application continued to all the floors of the towers, the buildings or at least one building just may have remained standing. May have.
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I read this link, N, and was amazed at all the allusions to vague, unspecified authority there. Wanna bet I cant paste at least 5 examples here. And it really does remind me of YOU.
Vague, unspecified authority? I'm sorry, all I saw was a well reasoned and well supported case for why the WTC wasn't a "white elephant", and why the asbestos costs were certainly not worth participating in mass murder. Just how are the sources for the opposite argument somehow more credible, crisp and clear? But all evidence aside, does it really make sense to you that a savvy …Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement
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Dearest Natalie-I do hope you’ll forgive me, but I am leaning back toward you being in someone’s employ with a distinct agenda.
You're darn right I have a distinct agenda. You're wrong about the paid part, unfortunately for me. But Joe also seems to have a distinct agenda. Could it be that he's being paid to generate hits to all those links? I'm just sayin. So what's your point? What's your purpose? Are you the official referee/agenda evaluator here?Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement
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I suggest you take all this up with NIST, Joe. Make a list of what you consider to be your top five or six "contradictions" and your top five or six questions. Compose a polite, respectful email or letter that doesn't expose you as a conspiracy guy and see what happens! Contact info. I obviously can't seem to convince you of the ridiculousness of believing that NIST would put out a report with unfounded conclusions based on "obvious contradictions" for the world engineering/scientific community to scrutinize. I can't seem to convince you that because there has been no outcry remotely …
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NARRATOR: No one was thinking that there might be even worse to come, but the seeds of destruction that would eventually bring the tower down had already been sown. These images reveal that spray-on fireproofing was completely blown off critical load-bearing steel, and several of the floor trusses were destroyed. Inside, additional trusses would have been weakened or dislodged, and fireproofing everywhere would have been obliterated. CHARLES THORNTON: (structural engineer) Once the plane hit and the fragments of the plane came through the building, we know it knocked out floors. We also know that it knocked spray-on fireproofing off a lot …
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Joe, That program is another example of early speculation on some of the causes of the collapse. There may well have been unintentionally erroneous statements made regarding the steel temps, the strength of the truss connections, the mechanisms of collapse, etc. However, the main point I was trying to make was that a primary source, Leslie Robertson, the lead structural engineer on the project, specifically stated he had no knowledge of fuel being considered in their analysis of an airliner hitting the building. And further, there is explanation why they would not have been able to ascertain an accurate picture of …
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I see two legitimate structural engineers, Jorg and Hugo, with the only apparent reference to their beliefs being a second-hand cite by a peace-kook on how they watched a video of WTC7 and thought it looked like a demolition. No indication they were familiar with the particulars surrounding the building's colllapse. Am I missing something? There's gotta be more than this somewhere. Is there? Here's Hugo's website. No mention of the world trade center, or anything CD. I don't see any architects, or fire engineers, or demolition professionals cited. Lots of mathematicians, though. But being good with numbers doesn't mean …
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Perhaps Sibel's credible on some things, I'm far from sure. But I still don't see any substantive link between her and 9/11 being an "inside job". If you have anything of substance on or by Jorg and Hugo, please link it.
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Opponents of Poland's former communist regime reportedly want to pay a posthumous homage to US President Ronald Reagan by erecting his statue in the place of a Soviet-era monument. In an open letter to the mayor of the southwestern city of Katowice, the former anti-regime activists said that the staunchly anti-communist Reagan had been a "symbol of liberty," the Polish news agency PAP reported. As a result, they said, he deserved to become the centrepiece of the city's Freedom Square, replacing a monument to the Soviet troops who drove out the occupying Nazis in 1945. They also said that they wanted …
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And I still say a physicist trumps any engineer just like an engineer trumps any architect.
In the context of this discussion, I think not, at least the engineer-physicist part. Would a physicist be capable of designing a skyscraper? Does he possess the necessary understanding of how different materials work together to form a system that will safely stand and be able to resist forces of gravity and wind? Consequently is he capable of understanding the mechanisms of failure better than an engineer? A physicist is really just a step above a mathematician, in that he works with a set of …Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement
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Gosh Joe, you're actually talking about things that actually may be debatable. I'm not overly knowledgeable about middle east politics, and I haven't really been following this latest Iran weapons supply accusation. But it makes sense to me on the surface that the power-hungry few in Iran would be trying to undermine us and bog us down in Iraq, and prevent a democratic system from ever taking hold there, because they know the majority of the people in Iraq simply want to live in peace. That's all they need when they're trying to keep their own freedom-hungry population at bay, not …
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Joe, I think the root of the problem here is that you're laboring under the false assumption that everything the Govt. does is suspect and that they're always trying to hide something and always have ulterior motives of some sort. While this may be true in some isolated cases, I think you're distorting these into a false global reality that causes you to come to invalid conclusions. The steel wasn't tested for explosive residue because they were trying to cover up a CD, not simply because nobody had the slightest suspicion that explosives were used. NIST didn't show computer simulations of …
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Bong Bong! There's the bell, end of Round 7. I definitely give this round to Natalie.
Woohoo!!Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement
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Joe, I think that letter containing all those ridiculous accusations may actually be criminal in itself. I hope it's not from you, but if it is, I hope you haven't sent it yet.
I recently saw footage of a talk you gave at the University of Texas at Austin, where you were asked about molten steel at Ground Zero. You responded by denying the existence of such steel, even though countless examples can be seen on video archives.
Countless examples? We've all seen the tractor with the glowing material in its jaws, which was likely not steel BTW, but what else …Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement
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Molten Steel Is the most devastating proof of an inside job along with free fall speed of collapse. You can't break the laws of physics.
I'm still waiting for all those "countless examples" of videos of the molten steel, and presumably pictures of the all the cooled blobs or long rope-like formations of cooled molten rivers of steel. The duration of the collapses was between 12 and 16 seconds. This is light-years behind true free-fall speed. An object falling in free-fall could travel from a height nearly twice that of the towers in 12 seconds.Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement
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Natalie We have been over all of this even your NOW 12 to 16 seconds bullsh**t. You used to say 13 to 16 seconds but whatever even the goernment “owned” scientists say 10 seconds and some of them even say 9 seconds.
This is another huge logical fallacy often passed off as somehow meaningful and sensible. There was never any effort, nor any real need or interest in calculating down to the second the collapse duration on the part of NIST or FEMA. Their estimates were purely for the purpose of literary description and were not meant for anything more than …Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement
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Indeed Joe, you are correct. Garcia comes up with 10s and Bazant estimates an average of 10.8s. I wasn't aware of anyone else coming to a conclusion as a result of sequential equations other than Frank Greening, which is where I get 11.5-13s. But I don't see where anyone is saying 9s. And I still don't think that FEMA or NIST was interested in a precise number, whether or not they might have been closer than I thought. And you are surely wrong when you say that Garcia bases his calculations on NIST's, who as we well know didn't do any …
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Natalie-quick question from a newbie-I have read these debates about the time frame before and dont quite understand how there can be any doubts about the time frame. It was all filmed by countless cameras, so how can there be questions about the elapsed time on the fall?
Arpie, I think after reading my post above, along with all the links provided, you'll understand why there is so much variation in estimates of collapse time. Sorry about calling you RP. Perhaps I'll call you referee Arpie. ;-)Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement
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Garcia and Bazant both say that WTC #1 came down in 9.5 and 9.3 seconds! How in the world can you not see that! So, for H = 440 m (=1443 feet) the free fall time is T = 9.5 s, and the velocity slamming into the ground is -92.9 m/s = -208 mph.
No no no. Garcia's talking about theoretical free-fall here, like in a vacuum, not what happened in the actual collapse. Later he goes on to calculate floor by floor the accumulated resistance and how it affects the total collapse time. Read it again.Natalie You said; The …
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MANUEL GARCIA, Jr. said My Conclusions The WTC towers collapsed at speeds approaching that of free fall because: blah blah blah blah blah ect, ect, ect, blah blah blah... So, for H = 440 m (=1443 feet) the free fall time is T = 9.5 s, and the velocity slamming into the ground is -92.9 m/s = -208 mph. You need to read it again.
So you agree with those from an Ivy League college that claim the building came at 9.5 seconds even though it disregards the laws of physics?
One more time Joe. Garcia was not talking about the …Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement
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Thanks for the nod, Ref. I think you've successfully identified the basic reason why the "truth" movement is improperly named: Few (if any) relevant genuine experts agree with their theories. The closest they can come to a structural engineer's endorsement is an oil-rig worker with a BS degree who theorizes that some kind of mini-nuke was used to bring down the towers. (Charles Pegelow) The closest they can come to a physicist is a politically biased, religiously extreme cold-fusionist who alters photos and clips quotes to misrepresent original intent. (Steven E. Jones) As to why I continue to post here, I …
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Not exactly David, but how are ya? Did you ever get over your virus? ;-) That's a nasty bug.
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Interesting. Anything you'd care to share regarding how and when you arrived at your current attitude David? I don't remember you as being a hardcore believer, like Rabbit or Joe, but I think I remember you at least strongly leaning in their direction. Your insight might prove to be valuable, and highly relevant to the recent context and direction of this discussion.
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I'm sensing this discussion is nearing its end. With the passage of time and after re-reading Terry Allen's essay, it's all the more apparent that she was indeed ahead of the curve on this subject. She correctly recognized the erroneous nature of the "truth" movement, and understood how damaging it was becoming to rational political discourse:
But the work should be done. Pile conspiracies can be dangerous. Those who deny that HIV is responsible for AIDS, for example, have contributed to unnecessary infections and deaths. And the 9/11 conspiracy hypotheses distract from the growing chain of evidence documenting how the Bush …
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Putting aside the fact that embracing an action by the idiot socialist Noam Chomsky calls into question your so-called conservative credentials Joe, you are of course misconstruing his signing of this petition as being somehow supportive of your nutty "inside job" fantasies. The petition:
We, the undersigned, demand the immediate declassification and release of all transcripts and documents relating to the July 10, 2001 meeting that took place between former CIA Director George Tenet and then National Security Advisor, Condoleezza Rice. It has been alleged that this urgent and out-of-the-ordinary meeting was called to discuss the increasingly dire warnings of an …
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I was completely baffled and furious when he said that so I take this as a HUGE turn around of his monumental mistake in dismissing 911 truth, even if its not an outright mea culpa.
My point Joe, was that this is NOT, by all indications, a HUGE turn around regarding his feeling about 9/11 "truth". He merely signed a petition that most anyone would gladly sign, even myself. He didn't enlist with "scholars" for 9/11 "truth" for gosh sakes. I too would like to know what these guys were talking about, but I would also like to know what Clinton …Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement
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Ya see Joe when you start comparing us with Nazi Germany, you are engaging in yet another logical fallacy. It's not possible to compare German leader/citizen relationships with American leader/citizen relationships, because although German citizens and American citizens are pretty much alike, Nazis are NOT in any way similar to any American administration, past or present. You are correct. You can use a stopwatch and basic physics to analyze the collapses of the towers. (Of course some rough mass and strength data might come in handy too) If you correctly apply these tools and values to the problem, you will indeed …
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OK, so I was kinda thinking that maybe you had some kind of proof, some kind of quote, a Google or a UTube video -- something that would lead us to believe that Noam had actually changed his mind about specifically the concept of an "inside job". I don't see anything to that effect, even given that this was the prime window of opportunity for you to have presented evidence of such. Absent such evidence, the question becomes obvious: Why would you try to promote Noam's signature on an uncontroversial petition, one that even I might sign, as being somehow supportive …
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Chomsky:
There's by now a small industry on the thesis that the administration had something to do with 9-11. I've looked at some of it, and have often been asked. There's a weak thesis that is possible though extremely unlikely in my opinion, and a strong thesis that is close to inconceivable. The weak thesis is that they knew about it and didn't try to stop it. The strong thesis is that they were actually involved. The evidence for either thesis is, in my opinion, based on a failure to understand properly what evidence is. Even in controlled scientific experiments one …
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How in the world can you think that the petition written by the 9/11 "Jersey" widows calling for the release of classified documents relating to the 9/11 attacks is not at least pointing to LIHOP?
Joe, you're projecting your own wishes and fantasies onto this little petition. Not even the Jersey Girls themselves appear to me to have taken the "inside job" leap, although I guess it wouldn't surprise me if a few within that group may have, as my own father did briefly. Kristen Breitweiser talking to "Crooks & Liars":Because when you look at the record from 9/11, …
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Uh, Joe, relax. Is this the biggest thing you've got to get excited about? BBC got some bum information and went it with before verifying, in a rush to get a scoop. Let's remember, verification would have been a bitch that day. Doesn't that make a hell of a lot more sense than what you're implying? (just what are you implying, and how does it make sense? Why would the person who blew up 7 need to notify anyone that it had happened, and why would they do it early?) Remember that concept from earlier?...... Context? I'm sure there were plenty …
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You may really be onto something here, Joe. Keep at those Limeys until they cough up the sad, sordid truth. I'll tell ya what. I'll trade ya WTC7 for 1 & 2. After all, Danny Jowenko says they came down naturally. That's gotta be pretty much be the last word on those two. Dan's da man, right?
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You give mere mortal media people way too much credit, Joe. You assign all kinds of nefarious and mysterious motives when ordinary and natural human error and confusion are far, far more likely to be all that's at work.
Here's an example of how inaccurate the live reporting of a confusing event can be. I was at home on October 11, 2006, when Yankees pitcher Cory Lidle's small plane crashed into the 30th floor of a residential building in Manhattan. I took notes on some of the early TV and internet reports. Four witnesses said it was a helicopter...WRONG “Conflicting reports …
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Yes, complete context is always good. Dan da man says quite a bit about one & two:
Narrater: Danny Jowenko has been doing explosive demolitions for 27 years. He represents the absolute Dutch top. If anyone can judge whether explosives were used, it's him. (watches portion of "Loose change" -- south tower collapses first) Danny Jowenko: It crashed in a more favorable spot, a bit more in the center. Plus, the building's own weight on top... N: So it's logical the second went first? DJ: Of course. You see clearly that the building that was hit first was hit higher, so …
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Well, how convenient. No wires needed, no sound, sticks right to the steel. Cuts instantly. What's that old saying? If it sounds too good to be true...... I guess since one of the "best in the business" apparently hasn't heard of it, he's not that informed or bright after all. He's of no use to any of us. Oh and thanks for the comic book, Joe. It provides abundant proof that Jones is either a clever con artist, or someone suffering from severe delusional tunnel vision. I especially liked this part:
What is the Scientific Method? * Gather observations and Evidence …
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* The freight elevators are the only lifts that travel the length of the buildings.
Yes, and Marlene was in a freight elevator. She says so.Did you get that Natalie? This video corroborates that of William Rodriguez, the WTC janitor who witnessed the basement blasts
You mean this William Rodriguez?:BROWN: That's a great way to put it. On the subject of your friends, one of them is with you, a relatively new friend I know, William Rodriguez (ph). If Mr. Rodriguez (ph) is actually close enough, we've got a mike on him, just tell the story of how -- …
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Can we please get an outline of just what this investigation would entail? Who would conduct it? Who would participate in it? Would you be willing to abide by the conclusions of it, if they didn't happen to agree with your "theories"? There's already been investigations done by the 9/11 commission, which was signed off by both parties, the FEMA reports, and the NIST reports. There was a U.S. Senate and a British investigation into the intelligence used regarding Iraq. You don't seem satisfied with any of these. Why would we think you'd be satisfied with the results of yet another …
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President William Jefferson Clinton was impeached for Obstruction of Justice, raising that particular offense to the level of an impeachable high crime. Has the Bush regime obstructed justice in regard to September 11th 2001?
No Joe, YOU are obstructing justice BIG TIME, and you don't even seem to have an inkling about it. You are the one acting as an apologist and providing cover for the organization that REALLY DID plan and carry out 9/11. You are the one who has implied that everyone from the dedicated people at NORAD to the poor hard working pocket-liner wearing structural engineers at NIST …Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement
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Joe, You're confusing bureaucratic confusion and perhaps a little butt-covering with "LYING", presumably to cover up complicity. You're mistaking more and more accurate and reliable conclusions based on additional data for people diabolically "changing their story", and "lying". You're confusing pancake collapse initiation with the obvious and always agreed upon pancaking of the structure as a whole. The pull-in theory of collapse initiation was determined by additional information that previous theorists didn't have. You've confused informal hypothesizing by people or groups with some kind of "official story", that the NIST report seemingly is not allowed to disagree with, lest they …
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So I guess any day now they'll be filing their complaint. Can't wait for that---Saturday Night Live and Comedy Central are getting old.
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Yeah, I'd like to find out more about Sibel myself. However, you unfortunately can't trust a bunch of partisan hack democrats to get the bottom of any kind of truth, especially when it starts to point to some left-wing entrenched bureaucrat within the CIA, jealous of some greenhorn showing them up. It looks to me like the Edmonds case might illustrate how there's too many special interests in govt., (Duh) but I fail to see how anything she says supports the "inside job" fantasies. Even she doesn't seem to really want to go there, unless perhaps it can get her on …
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Speaking of hearings: 9/11 mastermind confesses in Guantanamo By LOLITA C. BALDOR, Associated Press Writer WASHINGTON - Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the suspected mastermind of the Sept. 11 attacks, confessed to that attack and a string of others during a military hearing at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, according to a transcript released Wednesday by the Pentagon. Mohammed claimed responsibility for planning, financing, and training others for bombings ranging from the 1993 attack at the World Trade Center to the attempt by would-be shoe bomber Richard Reid to blow up a trans-Atlantic flight with explosives hidden in his shoes. In all, Mohammed said he …
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'I Decapitated' Daniel Pearl, Mohammed Says Military Releases Transcripts From Guantanamo Bay Hearing March 15, 2007 WASHINGTON - Khalid Sheikh Mohammed confessed to cutting off the head of American journalist Daniel Pearl, as well as plotting the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, according to a revised transcript of a statement released by the U.S. military. "I decapitated with my blessed right hand the head of the American Jew, Daniel Pearl, in the city of Karachi, Pakistan," Mohammed is quoted as saying in a transcript of a military hearing at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, that was released Thursday by the Pentagon. In addition …
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It's true that he may have padded his resume a bit on some of his claims, but on the big one, 9/11, he admitted to that even before he was captured and supposedly tortured. And of course, he was caught by surprise along with evidence in his possession. Why are you trying so hard to defend this a**hole? Not even the most partisan hack Democrats dispute the meat of his confession.
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What is it about BEFORE HE WAS ARRESTED AND SUPPOSEDLY TORTURED that you don't understand, Joe? Personally, I don't have any problem with the guy who murdered 3000 Americans being tortured. Somehow, I don't think most of the families of those who died do either. Why do you?
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Yawn... zzzzzzzzzzz......... Anytime at all you see fit to boil all this misc. collective intrigue down into a coherent narrative of a paragraph or two, is fine with us. Until then, you're putting us all to sleep, and/or making us believe that you really have no idea what you're even trying to assert. Coach Hastert? An international criminal? Not the coach!! I betcha he's got one of those fake pull-off faces.
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So let's see. The FBI's a big blundering bureaucracy. Tell us something we don't know. But wait....I thought bin Laden had nothing to do with the attack, and that most of the hijackers are still alive! He's not the one on that confession tape! Looks like the FBI was just doing its due diligence, by not harassing innocent parties!
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Hmmm..... Bush supports terror and Bush planted bombs in towers. Now you're making sense!!
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I have no idea whether they really did or not, and if they did, I have no idea why. You and I will never know -- we've never really been in the loop as far as the FBI and the CIA are concerned, strangely enough. My best guess, however, is that the truth is probably a lot more innocent, pedestrian and boring than you or I can imagine. The very LAST thing I would suspect is some kind of big grand complicated shady conspiracy. BTW, somehow I doubt Frank Greening is going to join your club anytime soon, unless he's …
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psikey, For about the 13th time, your thinking on the tower's collapses is based upon a fundamental misunderstanding of their mechanism. I see what you're thinking -- the structural support elements of the towers were obviously more massive at the bottom and decreased in mass as they went up. This might affect the nature of collapse in a lot of cases, depending on the total height of a building and of course the design, but in the case of the towers it was somewhat irrelevant. The columns varied in mass according to their placement vertically, however the floors, and their connecting …
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I love how you can just project stupidity on people and pretend something that is relatively simple is really complicated and then create an example far simpler than the reality to explain things.
Well pardon me, but you're the one who's projected stupidity upon yourself. Anyone who goes on forever about not knowing the weight of the concrete, when it's not even relevant to this particular collapse, is practically begging to be called stupid. The collapse is in fact relatively simple, which makes it even more mind-boggling that someone supposedly of MENSA stock is unable to grasp it, and is unable …Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement
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Barry Jennings, a City Housing Authority worker, and Mike Hess, New York’s chief lawyer were in building 7 just after the evacuation. The two had gone up to the 23rd floor headquarters of the Mayor’s Office of Emergency Management just after 9:30am in an attempt to reach Rudy Guiliani, who they had determined was inside building 7 at that time. But found it empty.
Funny, that. Could we possibly get any more uncritical?Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement
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"All warfare is based on deception."
This stood out for me. Because just who exactly is engaged in "warfare"? Certainly not NIST, and the dozens of engineers and related professionals it collaborated with to produce an exhaustive, intensive and unprecedentedly detailed report based on visual, testimonial, computational and historical evidence. Certainly not the dozens of other professional fire, civil and structural engineers around the globe that prepared their own INDEPENDENT professional analyses that basically agreed -- and not for a moment entertained the slightest need for supplemental energy, but in fact often argued that either damage alone or fire alone …Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement
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psikey, I'm still not seeing the slightest indication that you have the slightest understanding of the mechanism of collapse. I explain it to you time after time and you just ignore it, going off on irrelevant tangent after irrelevant tangent. Your fantasy that thousands of professionals are out there afraid to express their disagreement with NIST is just that.
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Joe, Stop listening to Alex Jones and Loose Change. They are nothing more than con-artist opportunists, who are laughing all the way to the bank with formerly your money. You promote their nonsense and they get tons of free advertisement. Wake up to this REAL conspiracy.
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We've been through all this before Joe. You're going in circles. Nobody was trying to deceive anyone when talking about the steel. It was preliminary speculation by people who in most cases were probably ASKED to provide it. The investigation proceeded. More information was gathered and analyzed. NIST came out with their best judgement in a very open and public way, and lots of other independent scientists/engineers offered theirs. Some thought NIST put too much emphasis on the effects of the fire. Some thought they put too much on the damage. Purdue recently completed a visual computer simulation that very closely …
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All that is necessary for evil to succeed is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke
True. But naturally you've got the players reversed. NIST and professional engineers in general are loath to, or simply don't have time to, come out and deal with the improperly named "truth" movement, and so they continue to propagate their damaging crap on the Internet, largely unchecked. In fact, this wise quote by Burke is my basic motivation for doing my small part in exposing their absurdity.Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement
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Ever consider a second job as a cherry picker? You're quite talented. Regardless of these selective tidbits, the fire models by NIST, and others*, produced temperature patterns that were easily capable of resulting in the failure of the structure. Especially when one considers the loss of fireproofing, which was a key factor, one which is often ignored by the "truth" zombies.
* The results of this comprehensive analysis, including the effect of thermal expansion on the perimeter columns showed that even without the plane impact the building could collapse due to the fire occurring on multiple floors. The Arup analysis …
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Dr Greening says: “NIST has no PROOF that fire insulation was stripped by the aircraft impacts in the critical areas ABOVE the impact zones. In fact it is highly UNLIKELY that this happened, and without the loss of thermal insulation, NIST’s collapse theory falls apart. The loss of thermal insulation idea is obviously an ad hoc hypothesis added by NIST to salvage a failed collapse theory.”
I'm at a loss as to how Greening thinks he knows about the fireproofing. Simple common sense tells you that it would have been substantially dislodged. Regardless, I don't think Dr. Greening believes that there …Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement
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The 1975 fire was hardly comparable to the 9/11 event:
Only the 11th floor had significant fire damage. Firefighters had full access to the fire. The fire never left the concrete-enclosed cable shaft on the other floors. It was a 3-alarm fire, not a 12-alarm. The building was not hit by an airliner at 500 mph with resulting structural damage to load-bearing columns and beams. Fire was not fueled by accelerant. Fire insulation was not blown off the steel.
Section III: The World Trade CenterPosted to The 9/11 Faith Movement
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So.....what are you saying, Joe? Are you saying that there weren't any other possibilities for secondary explosions besides deliberately placed bombs and natural gas? Are you saying that Mineta thinks that the orders were to stand down, and not to shoot down? Are you saying that he absolutely has to be right on the timeline, and everyone else absolutely has to be wrong? Are you saying that this means that flight 77 didn't crash into the Pentagon? That all the forensic evidence identifying every last soul but maybe one was faked? I've been asking you forever to construct some kind of …
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Sorry Psikey, the cherry-picking comment was directed at Joe. You're not so much cherry picking as you are up the wrong cherry tree. But, it looks like you're gathering some of those numbers and data on your own regarding the concrete and the steel. Have you emailed NIST and politely asked them if they would mind supplying you with this information? Just tell them you're writing a report for school, or something.
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Oh for cryin' out lould. All I'm saying is DON'T EXPOSE YOURSELF TO BE A 9/11 "TRUTH" ZOMBIE!! I'm quite confident emails from these folks are not answered. In fact, they've probably got filters for words like "thermite", and phrases like "controlled demolition" and "faster than freefall". Remember, you're writing a report for school. While you're fibbing, you're studying to become a structural physicist. This is the only way you're going to get the information you need to blow the lid off this case. You'll be lying, but for the reason of exposing the truth!
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Well I’m eliminating one excuse/cause after the other. I would say its been narrowed down quite a bit and some of those reported explosions for their time and place dont have ANY explainable cause for them. That is why they were denied for so long.
You're ignoring the LION'S share of the sources of people's PERCEPTIONS of explosions. And those are the impacts of the jets, and the collapses of the towers. Is that too boring and sensible to appeal to you?I have not studied the the Pentagon like I have Building 7 or the terorrists. I went for the …
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Don’t the people that accept the government’s story about the Pentagon have to believe that an airliner vaporized without scorching the lawn?
OMFG! (mouth agape in complete and utter disbelief and shock) What kind of Cuckoo's nest has been revealed here upon pulling back the leaves and grass? Or more accurately, what kind of religious cult? Calgon??????Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement
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I would suggest forwarding this to the Hillary campaign, because surely, if anyone, THEY can use it to construct a devastating case against the the previous administration. Or, you may consider including it in your explosive best-seller, perhaps a follow-up on the great writings of Paul O'Neil. Beautiful money!! Of course. It's so obvious. How could we notta seen it before?
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So we're going from the missing quantities of concrete at the WTC to the missing burned grass at the Pentagon. Perhaps we should be asking whether your brain has been vaporized, or not. I haven't seen photographs of it, so until then, I'm not convinced that it exists.
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Here Joe, you can take this back to your camp. The lesson here is that if you're patient, persistent, polite, sincere and don't let on that you're a "truth" zombie, you can find out all kinds of accurate and reliable information.
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The burned grass or THE PLANE, THE PLANE.
No, I wasn't referring to either one of those. "I haven't seen photographs of it, so until then, I'm not convinced that it exists."Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement
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"I recently learned there was no seismic data recorded as a result of the supposed airliner impact at the Pentagon. How could they be recorded from the WTC impacts at 960 and 1100 feet above the ground but not from the Pentagon at ground level?" Differences in construction design, methods and materials between the WTC towers and the Pentagon are no doubt at least partially the reason for the differences in seismic generation. The WTC columns were steel, relatively few, and were directly bonded to bedrock. The Pentagon was built upon thousands of concrete piles, which by definition presumably were pounded …
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I think you need a little LOVE education, psik. Amazing how those seismic waves manage to travel miles and miles, let alone 80 stories. Could it have something to do with having a route conducive to propagation, and the ability to access that route in the first place? "Vaporized" can be a technical or literary term. Technically, there was surely some complete vaporization of certain elements, but there was also sufficiently large remnants to make forensic ID of the plane and passengers possible, whether by DNA, personal effects, dental information or 757 parts. Some bodies were found still in …
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"I haven't seen photographs of it, so until then, I'm not convinced that it exists." Posted by Natalie on Jun 29, 2007 at 11:33 PM
The purpose of that reference, which apparently went right over your head, was to point out the absurdity of demanding pictures of everything in order to prove its existence. While I'm quite sure that photos do in fact exist showing those bodies, they would not necessarily be available for public viewing. If you were the information officer working with the rescue/recovery team, would you approve the release of such pictures? Skepticism is great, but when you …Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement
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I don't know about the seats, but there's plenty of photos of other parts of the plane. This letter to a jerk named Killtown very nearly applies to you, psik: Killtown, I am certainly aware of people like yourself who believe that those of us who suffered on 9/11 must be part of some giant plot, either as dupes or plotters. I was in the Pentagon when the plane hit, I held parts of that aircraft in my hands, covered with fuel and oil, and I helped with the triage area. I helped a guy with a headwound, aided ambulances coming …
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I see you're still hung up on steel and concrete mass. For the thirteenth time, it's not really that relevant in this case. The building's collapse didn't depend on crushing or bending the ever thickening steel columns on the way down, it was a result of the sequential stripping of the identical floors, with identical fasteners, from that steel. Left with no lateral support, the exterior columns mostly fell away from the descending mass, and the interior columns collapsed after standing briefly, naked of floors. The important factors are the weight of the masses above the impact zones, the dynamic force …
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The interior columns had horizontal beams connecting them like a normal skyscraper and did not need the floor slabs and trusses. The beams and columns in the core are shown in this simulation.
Was this assembly designed to stand on its own, and even shrug off the enormous effects of tons of building collapsing around and within it? Of course not.Haven’t you heard? The NIST rejects the pancake theory now.
NIST rejects the pancake collapse initiation theory, but not the obvious reality that the floors failed sequentially as the mass descended. The discovry of dozens of floors compressed into dozens …Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement
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I'm assuming from what you say that you have some kind of engineering degree. What specific area of engineering is it in, and how advanced is it? Is it in electrical engineering? Do you have any training in structural engineering?
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The Romans didn't build quarter mile high buildings, or miles long suspension bridges. If they had attempted to, I'm quite sure they would have failed long before completion. Advanced understanding of structural engineering and the properties of materials and their relationships to other materials is required to design and build such structures. However, the collapses are fairly easy to understand, as long as you apply your grammar school physics in such a way as to take into account the unusual construction of the towers. That is what you don't seem to be doing. If you understand that the inner columns, the …
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Translation: I don't have a degree in anything -- I've just studied enough stuff on my own to be dangerous. That's all well and good. I'm sure you know more about electronics than I do, or maybe even Frank Greening. But you don't have sufficient understanding of structures and materials and physics to presume to question the world's accredited engineers on their analysis of the WTC collapses, and you certainly have no business questioning their motives. You don't even understand the basic mechanisms of the collapses; either that, or you refuse to demonstrate it. You ask me for links to accounts …
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Do you smoke a lot of pot, psik? I'm serious. Be honest.
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"I haven't touched the stuff since college."
Gosh, I'm sorry to hear that, for your sake. At least that would be something easily correctable."And notice you didn't actually provide links you just provided quotations. Of course I did a search on the contents."
What in the world are you talking about here? This is why I suspected pot. "Failed Heist" ....... If there really had been a "failed heist", which appears to be a completely bogus story, a rational thinking person would suspect al Qaeda or their surrogates. They are the ones who flew the planes, and they were …Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement
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So.... I wonder when Tony's paper is going to be published in an engineering journal? That's right, he doesn't need any of that. He's got that other journal for people who don't want to bother with all that nasty peer review by people who might say bad things about their paper and maybe even reject it. It looks like he's having trouble even passing this preliminary peer review. (Tony is realcddeal) Not a good omen.
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No, not the laws of physics, the interpretation and explanation of those laws. Actually, there were no tests done by Underwriters or anyone on the truss assemblies before/during constructioin, and certainly not on the structural steel. Recent tests suggested fire ratings of 1.5 - 2 hours for lengths up to 35'. There was doubt as to whether these ratings could be applied to the full length trusses, which were the ones determined to have played a key role in collapse initiation. From NIST NCSTAR 1-6B, Fire Resistance Tests of Floor Truss Systems (6 mb pdf)
ABSTRACT The National Institute …
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Excellent summation of the "truth" movement. A total joke. If it wasn't so pathetic and disgusting, it might even be funny. I can't figure out if you're really this obtuse, or if you're just thinking maybe you can figure out a way to make some money off this scam. Either way, a very poor reflection on your mentality.
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Ah yes, the intimidation. Everyone knows it was an inside job, but they're too terrified to say anything. Might lose their jobs, you know. Exposing the crime of the century has its appeal, but I'm sure not gonna lose my job over it. Either way, this doesn't reflect well on their mentality. They're either non/miseducated kooks, or they're pathetic selfish cowards.
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Why not provide some kind of actual proof of what you contend, whatever exactly that is? That has been my never answered demand from the start of this lengthy thread. An endless stream of red herrings and irrelevancies does not even begin to approach the plateau of credible proof. Sorry, I misread your sentence about careers, expecting to see the oft made claim that this or that person is too scared to speak out. But still not a very flattering reflection -- supposedly knowing, and still not caring enough to interrupt one's career. Or could it be that they're really not …
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I warned you about this earlier. You can't expose yourself as a 9/11 "truther" and expect to get an answer. I think I may have advised you to simply ask for the information, and make up some story about how it was for your structural engineering class, or something. Or just say it's a project you're doing related to structural analysis. Make up a new identity and try again. Don't include your video. Good luck.
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I’m not and don’t care what a 9/11 truther is.
Face it. You're a 9/11 truther. Not that there's anything wrong with that!Posted to The 9/11 Faith Movement
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Hmmm...... but you're leaving out important stuff, like the extensive damage that was done by airliners traveling at high speed, visible in the Purdue simulation. And the instantaneous and overwhelming nature of the initial fireball, which enabled the rapid and expansive ignition of secondary building content. And the unique design of the towers, whose truss construction is feared by firefighters everywhere. Here's a little Thanksgiving present for you. It's what you've been looking for. And it comes from one of your own! You might actually be able to get some keyboard time with him! Unfortunately, it kind of disproves your …
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How about that some people think the federal government had specfic warnings of the 9/11 attacks in New york and Washington, but chose to ignore these warnings. Is this very likely, somewhat likely or not likely?* Very likely 32% Somewhat likely 29% Not likely 30% Don't know 6% Can't answer, refused 2%
Joseph Goebbels said:If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the "truth" movement can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences …
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A far more rational explanation for the results of the Scripps poll would be that a lot of Jay Leno Americans are simply ignorant of the facts related to who knew what before 9/11:
Richard Clarke, the hard-driving “counter-terrorism czar,” testified before the 9-11 commission about pre-September 11 intelligence. He said that the number of “al Qaeda threats and other terrorist threats was in the tens of thousands—probably hundreds of thousands.” But none of it contained specific information that could be used to stop the 9-11 plot. Clarke is even more emphatic in his book, Against All Enemies: “Had we …
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Reading through all your rambling machinations Joe, after six years, still not a SHRED OF ACTUAL PROOF regarding the involvement of anyone but al Qaeda in 9/11, nor a shred of proof that anyone knew any specifics in regards to pre-knowledge of 9/11. Just because the CIA, the military or other government agencies may have a certain influence on the media does not a controlled demolition or a Pentagon missile strike make. John should be happy. Scripps didn't ask specifics about 9/11 this time. Last time it was something like 6% believing in the CD baloney, and 5% in the Pentagon …
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Joe... You illustrate perfectly the REAL reason for the proliferation of the 9/11 kook theories. Science? No. Evidence? No. Disagreement with American foreign and/or domestic policy? Yes. And of course let's not minimize the money-making opportunities it brings to hundreds of websites and Internet radio operations. Imagine Alex Jones coming out and denouncing the "inside job" theory. ** Poof** .... there goes the audience. Nobody has ever claimed that bin Laden was a hands-on funder or detail planner of the 9/11 attacks. There is no question, however, that al Qaeda, of which he is the spiritual head, was. Once again ..... …
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I guess I need to repost this:
Richard Clarke, the hard-driving “counter-terrorism czar,” testified before the 9-11 commission about pre-September 11 intelligence. He said that the number of “al Qaeda threats and other terrorist threats was in the tens of thousands—probably hundreds of thousands.” But none of it contained specific information that could be used to stop the 9-11 plot. Clarke is even more emphatic in his book, Against All Enemies: “Had we had any chance of stopping it, had we the knowledge we needed to prevent that day, those of us sitting as members of CSG [Counterterrorism Security Group] would …
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Well at least you apparently believe there were hijackers. That's refreshing! Look, you can go round and round arguing who knew what when, and what should have prompted this person or that person to do this, that or the other thing. But a lumbering, slumbering inherently inefficient and slow to respond bureaucracy that's been with us for decades does not an "inside job" make. Waaaay too boring for Alex Jones & co.
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Oh, so, you believe there were hijackers but they were U.S. government trained plants? That it? Please clear this up, if you might. Along with no actual proof of anything, you're pretty short on links there, Joe. Most of this stuff I think was debunked long ago. Might we have the opportunity to judge the quality and entire context of your source material? (not an avalanche, just a few links) And by what leap of logic are we to entertain that you or the "truth" movement are somehow better equipped and qualified than the FBI to make determinations of guilt? How …
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Uh...Joe......Those people are all either right-wing wackos and/or kooks, or they're making money off the "movement". Or they plan to. The simplest explanation is usually the most accurate.
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It seems to me that the real problems were with the exit polls, not the voting machines. Exit poll information was released prematurely and improperly, and there was a problem with one of the pollster's servers: Preliminary exit poll results had leaked throughout the day and were posted on a number of Web sites, including the widely viewed Drudge Report site, which added to the confusion and fanned the media frenzy. To compound the problem further, a server at Edison/Mitofsky malfunctioned shortly before 11 p.m. The glitch prevented access to any exit poll results until technicians got a backup system …
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Just for a bit of spice though, the rabbit wishes to point out that as usual the Bushling is a complete liar and fraud and warmongering sack of shit. Iran is a saintly nation next to the evil SHRUB and his beastmen cronies. In his response to questions from the audience, Ganji talked about the specific Iranian laws and regulations that ban people from writing for life. "The laws of the Islamic Republic of Iran say that anybody who engages in propaganda against the state is punishable for one month up to a year. During the last eight years, …
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We have a fighting chance for another future. This future could take human potential and human society to untold heights. An impossible dream? No. If we get way up on the mountaintop of history and look down on the march of humanity, the potential for such a world becomes clear. From this sweeping vantage point we can see that there is the basis for a world without classes, without oppressive social divisions. A communist world ....... ......In this way, an ever-expanding network of conscious thinkers, dreamers, and fighters will gather around this newspaper, and we will be able to prepare—not only …
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I don't know why anybody would believe anything some stupid U.S. court would conclude, when we could just go here for the answers.
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Finances of Terror September 24, 2001 (A New York Times house editorial) Organizing the hijacking of the planes that crashed into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon took significant sums of money. The cost of these plots suggests that putting Osama bin Laden and other international terrorists out of business will require more than diplomatic coalitions and military action. Washington and its allies must also disable the financial networks used by terrorists. The Bush administration is preparing new laws to help track terrorists through their money-laundering activity and is readying an executive order freezing the assets of known terrorists. Much …
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Yeah scorp, proof indeed. I'm still waiting for proof from Rabbit that the Twin Towers were downed by pre-planted explosives, that many of the hijackers are still alive, that Bin Laden has not claimed responsibility for 9/11 and that lung cancer rates in the United States have increased 600% just this year due to the worldwide spread of depleted uranium "vapors". As to the hidden history of the Democratic Party as it relates to race, and their projection in the case of voter fraud, I am certainly on your same page, as I previously argued in response to this article, …
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Rabbit, Here is PROOF that Chavez is a thug and Carter is a useful idiot: Col. Chávez assumed power in 1999. One need not go into great detail about the deterioration of Venezuelan life since then to understand why a recall referendum has been years in the making. Every aspect of existence has worsened. The only people who are not profoundly affected are those at the highest levels of the government party. Poverty, for instance, is at an all-time high and the country is afflicted, for the first time ever recorded, with malnutrition on a massive scale. This unprecedented suffering …
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Rabbit, you're right about one thing. The 9/11 "Truth" movement is starting to emerge into the glare of the public spotlight. Unfortunately for them, the intense scrutiny that results often serves to intensely expose inferior or false hypotheses. Ask Dan Rather about that. Maybe you've heard it already, but recently, Jim Fetzer, Steven Jones' buddy from the "scholars" site, was on "Hannity and Colmes", a Fox News Channel right/left debate show here in evil America. (is that enough commas?) The segment was short and Fetzer really didn't have much of a chance to "expose" himself. However, he was subsequently on the …
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Sally, I'm late in responding to your post describing the Carol Fisher case, presumably meant as a rebuttal to my point, that being that the U.S. has nothing on Iran when it comes to government oppression. (BTW, Redhorse, you made a good point about some of the sordid history of our own country, but does that preclude us from ever helping or encouraging other nations to avoid our mistakes?) Even if the story told by Ms. Fisher is accurate, it certainly in no way equates to Iran's government ordered brutal crushing of a women's rights protest, and your use of her …
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2nd part...... I don't think Bush, Cheney or anyone relishes the prospect of military action against Iran. But wouldn't it actually help the cause of peace if more of us would join in condemning this evil regime, as does much of their own population, speak with one loud voice and thereby perhaps help to negate the need for force? Why must so many of us behave in such a way as to give hope to these oppressive, murderous, terrorism advancing clerics that indeed they are the noble ones, and that the capitalist, personal freedom loving g-string wearing west is the …
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"The bomb sniffing dogs were removed from the buildings a few weeks before 911". One of your fellow furry friends might take exception to that Rabbit, if only he still could. As usual, the self-appointed al-Qaeda defense team takes a morsel of truth, waters it, grows it, and then molds it to their liking. Here's another far more sensible perspective on molten waterfalls and molten rivers in the basement.
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Frog, as if you always stick right to the topic. In fact, it was scorp who first mentioned Iran, then Rabbit responded: "Iran is a saintly nation next to the evil SHRUB and his beastmen cronies." Which of course is ridiculous and so I then highlighted the oppression that the government of Iran exercises on its citizens, and compared it with the absence of such in the U.S. In fact this does all relate to election fraud in the U.S., because it's very instructive to see a country that actually does brutally crush dissent, and does actually ban certain candidates from …
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You're welcome scorp. Those two sites (911myths and debunking9/11) are probably the best out there that I know of fighting this insidious paranoid mental infection. Usually their introduction prompts such deep responses as: "Naty your shilling debunk site is too hollow for words." or "your 9/11myths site is crap". The TMS.org document you linked to, the Popular Mechanics article and even the NIST final report have been "thoroughly debunked", according to these experts in everything except the pertinent fields. There's not a single legitimate metallurgist, structural or even fire engineer among them. Oh yeah, a doughy white Mormon physicist. (Not that …
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Good points all scorp, but let's not be too hasty in dismissing eyewitness....er.....earwitness testimony about that terrible morning: Keith Murphy -- (F.D.N.Y.) [Engine 47] At the time, I would have said they sounded like bombs, but it was boom boom boom and then the lights all go out. I hear someone say oh, s___, that was just for the lights out. I would say about 3, 4 seconds, all of a sudden this tremendous roar. It sounded like being in a tunnel with the train coming at you.
Posted to Was the Presidential Election Stolen?
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Rabbit says: "The popular mechanics article you dared to mention is old, and long since thoroughly debunked, scientifically too, not your idea of debunking which is to call the authors liars and drug addicts or something. Properly scientifically answered. Of course the fact that the source has also been found to be totally “connected” and corrupted in this case is a matter of record, but not necessary when the science proved to be crap or based upon strawmen arguments." In this case, a teeny tiny miniscule morsel of truth is blown entirely out of context, with a pinch of good …
Posted to Was the Presidential Election Stolen?
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Richard Andrew Grove. Another computer programmer with a psychedelic imagination? Perhaps he's a friend of Peter's. A structural enginner, preferably without a drug habit (not that there's anything wrong with that) would be who you're looking for. Someone who's actually QUALIFIED to challenge the NIST final report and does so successfully is your only ticket out of Art Bell's basement.
Posted to Was the Presidential Election Stolen?
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Looking at Bush's signing statements, it would appear to me that he is merely stating some basic facts as pertains to who is granted power by the constitution to manage issues relating to war, foreign policy, and issues involving his cabinet. It is the congress who should be faulted for making so many statements necessary. I would imagine that had Al Gore been president on 9/11, and congress sought to tie his hands while he was trying to protect the nation from another terrorist attack, he likely would have had 750 things to say as well. This is why we have …
Posted to Was the Presidential Election Stolen?
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"As for you having proven Chris Bollyn to be dishonest, what a laugh." This is incontrovertible proof that Chris Bollyn is a deliberately misleading journalist. In fact, the words "journalist" and "Chris Bollyn" shouldn't appear within a hundred miles of each other. Out of all the "truth" articles that have abused and misused Bill Manning's Fire Engineering editorial from Jan. 2002, this particular article is far and away the most blatant. Instead of simply leaving out the key sentence that would of course make referring to Manning's editorial counterproductive in the first place, as does Steven Jones, Bollyn actually uses part …
Posted to Was the Presidential Election Stolen?
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Redhorse, I didn't say that Gore would necessarily have gone into Iraq. But surely you would agree that he would likely have had a strong response to 9/11 and would have sought many of the same intelligence gathering, prisoner detainment and finance tracking powers as has Bush, or at least I hope he would have. If congress had put out legislation that conflicted with those powers, which very argueably belong to the president alone, I certainly hope he would have had something to say. My point I guess is that to compare the recent history of signing statements without taking into …
Posted to Was the Presidential Election Stolen?
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Truth be told...9/11 may never have happened if Hollywood Al “ the wife kissing bandit “ Gore was in the White House.. Is that the same Gore that took cash from the airlines so as to NOT implement airline safety recommendations that his own commission proposed, back in the late 90's? I don't think bin Laden thinks much of Hollywood. In fact he might have approved the more ambitious plan to attack several more targets that day if the President would have had ties to that hedonistic bunch. (not that there's anything wrong with that)
Posted to Was the Presidential Election Stolen?
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"I don’t give a fuck about the photo. Experts have stated it is not an Oxy cut. I happen to be something of an expert in that field too and can say it doesn’t look like an OXY cut for the reasons given and finally, Bollyn’s credibility is not the issue, the photo is. Still dop the photo, it proves nothing on its own, which is why you pair of liars would stick to discussing it alone while ignoring all the rest." Boy, that's some paragraph. I don't care about the photo the photo is the issue drop the photo, it …
Posted to Was the Presidential Election Stolen?
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Wow Red, or are you really Michael Moore? Do you believe in bombs in buildings also? How bout missiles in Pentagons? You certainly don't believe in pargaraphs, (not that there's anything wrong with that) and you don't seem to believe in providing proof of much. Speaking of shady deals, was it not Al Gore & co. that engineered a careless rush of immigrants into the U.S. just in time for the 96 election? Public safety aside, forgive me if I disagree that there was no political motivation. Not when it comes to these folks record on vote fraud. You mentioned …
Posted to Was the Presidential Election Stolen?
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Rabbit, I'm glad you've decided not to end it. I certainly know first hand what you're going through with the marriage thing, and in fact we share a Danish connection. I know how hard it is for you now, but it will pass. Please believe me on this one thing. I think you know that I've always had a certain affection for your writings, even though I strongly disagree with your views. You're clever, funny and interesting, insults and all. I hope you can agree that we, and in fact all of us here want the best for the world and …
Posted to Was the Presidential Election Stolen?
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Well said, WTH. While speed and coolness of computerized voting is attractive, I agree that we'll never be able to totally trust the result, especially when so many of us are familiar with how easily our own computers can be tampered with from outside. (except for us Mac folks, that is!) (so far!) We vote on a sheet, kind of like an SAT test or something, where choices are blackened out in an oval next to the name. The voter then feeds the sheet into a counting machine, which alerts you of errors if any, and maintains a running count. The …
Posted to Was the Presidential Election Stolen?
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While I really don't like the idea of voting on touch screens and such, especially without any kind of paper trail, It doesn't appear that there's any credible evidence of computer fraud in the 2004 election by either side. Does anyone really think that Diebold would risk participating in something as dastardly as computer vote manipulation, when getting caught would certainly ruin the company? Would they risk the possibility of someone coming forward in the future and spilling the beans? It just doesn't make any sense. This kind of criminal partisanship is way more evident on the left, anyway. If …
Posted to Was the Presidential Election Stolen?
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Hi WTH, Your latest post appeared while I was writing mine. Yes, I love my Mac, even though it's kinda ancient by today's fast moving standards. I am still able to run OS X, barely. I'm waiting until they come out with a Powermac with Intel chips before upgrading. I tried for years to get my dad to switch from his problem-laden PC, but he wouldn't listen to me. But as soon as one of his many favorite grand-daughters made her pitch, he had a G5 iMac within a week. Now, he wouldn't go back for the world, and has converted …
Posted to Was the Presidential Election Stolen?
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The push for paper -- backed by the small but vocal Takoma Park-based group TrueVoteMD -- gained new strength last month when Ehrlich announced he had lost confidence in the state Board of Elections' ability to conduct accurate elections. The governor, who had been a champion of the Diebold machines, also called for a paper trail for the first time. Average citizens execising their power to make changes in their electoral system, in this case a change to optical scanners.
Posted to Was the Presidential Election Stolen?
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What's that old saying scorp, if you never do anything, you never do anything wrong? These armchair Monday morning whiners apparently expected a painless, instant, and natural transition from decades of totalitarian rule and murderous suppression of any and all dissent, to the historically unmatched freedom and peace that all of us DSL loving Frogs enjoy, strangely excepting the mild mannered and obviously completely innocent Carol Fisher. No, the transition isn't complete within less than three years, so the verdict is in. Time is up. They tried to tell us, we should never have ventured any response at all, save perhaps …
Posted to Was the Presidential Election Stolen?
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WTH, I was referring only to Powermacs, the "tower", as not having Intel chips yet. I'm aware that iMacs, Mac Minis and notebooks have already gone Intel, but waiting for the "Big Mac." 10,000 a year on upgrades? That sounds like an awful lot, perhaps a typo? I had a hard time with the early OS X also, but installing Panther on my G3 (upgraded to G4) was a breeze. It is much faster than earlier versions, and seems rock solid. I''m not surprised you would be having browser problems running nine. It may be that you need to be running …
Posted to Was the Presidential Election Stolen?
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The problem is, Rabbit, that you seem to be still living in a pre-1940's world. Whatever little plan some goof-balls had about overthrowing the US govt. way back when, has zero relevance today. Pretty much like that Northwoods memo, that was offered as such earth-shattering confirmation of the dastardly tendencies of the good 'ol USA. But upon closer examination, it pretty much fell apart. In fact, it proved the opposite of what the 9/11 "truthers" claimed. What in the world are you thinking posting links from the "Iraqi Resistance"? You really, truly think this could be a source of credible information? …
Posted to Was the Presidential Election Stolen?
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Take a step back from the propaganda of the neck-slicers. In the Name of God the Compassionate and Merciful To the Courageous Men and Women of the 3d Armored Cavalry Regiment, who have changed the city of Tall ' Afar from a ghost town, in which terrorists spread death and destruction, to a secure city flourishing with life. To the lion-hearts who liberated our city from the grasp of terrorists who were beheading men, women and children in the streets for many months. To those who spread smiles on the faces of our children, and gave us restored hope, through …
Posted to Was the Presidential Election Stolen?
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Now let's see Sally. President Clinton was rattling the sabre against Iraq back in 1998 or so, even directly warning us about the danger of them soon acquiring NUCLEAR weapons. He adopted a policy of regime change in Iraq. The Democrats in congress rushed to embrace it. Clinton and Gore were well aware of the threat brewing in Afghanistan; witness their missile strikes. So if Al Gore had gotten just the right lighting in that room counting those ballots, he would have been president on 9/11. I don't think it's too far fetched to assume that Gore wouldn't perhaps have invaded …
Posted to Was the Presidential Election Stolen?
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Research into the aftermath of the meltdown at the Soviet nuclear reactor has suggested that low levels of radioactivity are not as harmful as believed -- and may even be beneficial. Lauren Moret and Doug Rokke: call your offices!! Relax guys, we still got the vapor theory. Let's see 'em get their arms around that ghost.
Posted to Was the Presidential Election Stolen?
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I stand corrected. They're merely deliberately blowing completely innocent people into unrecognizable bits, including themselves. There's something somehow kinda more socially acceptable about that.
Posted to Was the Presidential Election Stolen?
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Of course we know that bin Laden couldn't possibly have had anything to do with 9/11, because the CIA produced fake video where he supposedly confessed shows him looking like someone else completely, writing with his right hand, which he never does, and wearing jewelry, which he also never does.
Posted to Was the Presidential Election Stolen?
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Wow WTH, I guess 10,000 per year makes sense, given all the stuff you've bought. It just seemed like a lot to me, but then again I forget just how much more expensive stuff used to be. Damn that free market, making us all feel like fools for buying something that a year later costs half as much and has twice the capabilities. Gosh, saw an ad on TV for a complete Dell system for 299.00. Tempting, but no, I don't think so. Of course, this has nothing to do with the topic, except wait....there was something about computer voting.....I'm covered. …
Posted to Was the Presidential Election Stolen?
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I’m not the one who created this plan and announced it to the world. The neocons themselves came up with it.......Surely you have heard of “Progress for a New American Century” or the acronym PNAC. Look it up for yourself. Imperialist designs announced by the very innocents you defend. No, there was no "plan" by Neocons to do what was done after 9/11. This is another attempt to take things out of context and apply paranoid thinking in order to make sense of the world according to the left. It's the same concept that has been applied to come up …
Posted to Was the Presidential Election Stolen?
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This Monday, the U.S. TV news was reporting that Saudia Arabia has still not complied with U.S. government requests to remove slurs in students’ textbooks that promote hatred of the U.S. and Israel. Yep, you've pretty much nailed the basic problem we've had with Islamic extremism for a long time now. Young Arabs being brainwashed from birth to hate and to kill, simply on the grounds that non-Muslims don't have a right to exist. (all those other excuses are pretty much just that) Even fundamentalist Christianity teaches the exact opposite. These are Bush family friends who are allowing hatred to grow …
Posted to Was the Presidential Election Stolen?
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The PNAC "plan", if you insist, is simply the opinion of some very intelligent and experienced individuals as to the best way to maintain U.S. military superiority and flexibility, in the face of some very tough challenges emerging on the horizon. There is nothing in it that could be construed by any reasonably intelligent individual as a plan to take over anyone or gain exclusive control over anything. I would think, that given all the actual attempts to conquer others by individuals and governments that care absolutely nothing about the human rights the left so champions, and the many actions taken …
Posted to Was the Presidential Election Stolen?
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KARABILAH, Iraq (July 7, 2006) -- Thanks to the work of Marines and Iraqi Security Forces, 800 elementary-aged girls will now have a school to attend this fall. Marines from 1st Battalion, 7th Marine Regiment unveiled a brand new grade school in this city of about 30,000 on the Iraq-Syria border in western Al Anbar Province July 7, 2006....... ........Local tribal leaders and sheikhs attended the school's grand opening and expressed thanks to the Marines of 3rd Civil Affairs Group who spearheaded the reconstruction project and obtained the necessary manpower to complete the building. Civil Affairs teams oversee funding for …
Posted to Was the Presidential Election Stolen?
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Review of Causes of WTC Collapse Severe though the structural damage due to aircraft impacts was, it was only local. Without stripping of much of steel insulation during impact, the subsequent fire could not have led to overall collapse (Bazant and Zhou 2002, NIST 2005). As generally accepted by structural engineering and structural mechanics experts (though not by some laymen and fanatics seeking to detect a conspiracy), the failure scenario, broadly proposed by Bazant (2001), and Bazant and Zhou (2002), on the basis of simplified analysis, and supported by very realistic, meticulous and illuminating computer simulations and exhaustive investigations by S. …
Posted to Was the Presidential Election Stolen?
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Redhorse, Please clarify your last post. I can't tell if you want a popular vote or if you want the electoral college. How can a true popular vote possibly not make some states more competitive than others? If all states agree to give all their electoral votes to the winner of their popular vote, how is this any different from our current system, at least the way it works 99.9 percent of the time?
Posted to Was the Presidential Election Stolen?
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"Those areas where people are motivated the most by greed are the areas that we're the most satisfied with: supermarkets, computers, FedEx." By contrast, areas "where people say we're motivated by 'caring'" -- public education, public housing etc. -- "are the areas of disaster in our country. . . . Does anything get done based on "human love and kindness"? Well, a nonprofit group called City Harvest collects donations of restaurants' surplus food for the poor. But where does that food come from? Greedy people like Virgil Rosanke produce it, and greedy restaurateurs buy it. Kindness can only give away …
Posted to Black Men: The Crisis Continues
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Goebbels is quoted: "It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State." What's missing from this rather selective piece of journalism is the fact that the folks upset about this ad are themselves following Goebells' advice in the area of repressing dissent, exactly as did the Kerry campaign in its efforts to silence the Swiftvets and others who simply wished to exercise their supposed rights of free speech in attempting …
Posted to Strangers to the Truth
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I'm pleased to see that these editors @ ITT have taken a stand on the side of what I believe to be common sense and simple reality. I'm disappointed, however, that their article was somewhat short on specifics, and left both believers in bombs and believers in pancakes frustrated. I would hope that they might choose to expand on their conclusions in a future article of longer length and depth. I think it's important not to allow a false notion like this to take root, especially one that serves to effectively exonerate the true villains of 9/11, and shamefully and without …
Posted to What's the 411 on 9/11?
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For every action..... cell phones
Posted to What's the 411 on 9/11?
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Ashamed to admit that I'm starting to doubt the official 9/11 explanations if indeed the government has this kind of ability and obviously it wasn't utilized that day. Why not? And why no mention of it in the commission report, or the NIST report for that matter? It all starts with the NORAD radar system called the North Warning System. This powerful radar system has 47 installations strung across...... Reason for doubt
Posted to What's the 411 on 9/11?
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Andi wrote: The games were actually said to be simulating planes being hijacked and used to hit buildings. And though he (Cheney or Rumsfield) claimed to have arrived too late to do anything, other witnesses said he was there and in command well before the WTC and Pentagon hits took place. I’ll try look up specific sources, later. I don't think this is accurate, Andi. From reading two rather detailed accounts of the events on 9/11 at two NORAD facilities, it doesn't appear that anything nefarious is going on within our ranks, but it is apparent that NORAD, and the country …
Posted to What's the 411 on 9/11?
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Perhaps I've been unclear, wiley. I didn't necessarily mean to say that NORAD or the ATCers are beyond criticism and couldn't have acted faster even operating under the mindset of that time. There were some agonizingly long delays in calling NORAD, for reasons unclear to me. However, I believe it's unreasonable to expect anyone, even the good folks at NORAD and the fine ATCers to perform flawlessly in the face of an unprecedented attack by unknown forces, both in terms of what they aimed specifically to do with the aircraft, and the extent to which the attack might involve other aircraft …
Posted to What's the 411 on 9/11?
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Do you have any criticism whatsoever for the 19 Muslim murderers who slit people’s throats, hijacked the planes, intentionally turned off the transponders and proceeded to transform their newly acquired mass of aluminum, kerosene and human flesh and bone into a guided missile? Hmmmmm.........non whatsoever. I think your anger is somewhat misplaced, wiley. I too would like to think that things could have been different on 9/11. However, I really don't think my wishes are compatible with the real world capabilities and "rules of engagement" of our government. Perhaps in a less-free, dictatorial country where they don't rely largely on trusting …
Posted to What's the 411 on 9/11?
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Funny that you'd accuse me of generalizing, wiley, when in reality, that's what your argument has been all about. You argue without specifics that apparently our agencies should have been able to prevent the planes on 9/11 from reaching their targets. You come off like an angry old boss that just fires everyone if they don't perform up to his fantasy world expectations. You refuse to address my inquiries regarding "exactly what are you expecting?" I don't see any specifics on how we could have logically or even physically prevented the attacks on the towers. You claim to be knowledgeable about …
Posted to What's the 411 on 9/11?
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All I would ask, D., is that in addition to considering the views of Griffin and Jones, you don't bypass the opinions of hundreds of structural engineers, civil engineers, I'm sure the overwhelming majority of even physicists, metallurgists, materials experts and even fire engineers. The nearly unanimous consensus among these pertinent professionals is that the collapse of the towers was well within the bounds of expectations, given the extraordinary design of the towers, the extraordinary event of having jets deliberately flown into them at top speed fully fueled, and the extraordinary amount of heat (not necessarily temperature) generated from the fires …
Posted to What's the 411 on 9/11?
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We read anger in everything (we want to). And everyone is out to get us. Maybe we should preempt all possible threats, blow up the planet, and get it over with, huh? Screw the rules, we’re scared. There you go generalizing again, wiley. And there you go getting things exactly backward. We are not the ones who initiated the blowing up of things. That would be the Islamic radicals of the world. We are not the ones who "failed" on 9/11. We are the ones who were the victims of 19 cold-blooded killers who found easy hunting within a trusting nation. …
Posted to What's the 411 on 9/11?
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Here's an example of something you'll see time and time again when reading material put forth by the "truth" movement. That's correct - no such steel-beam building had ever before (or since) completely collapsed due to fires! But, as we all know or should know, the WTC towers were of an extremely unique design not comparable to conventional steel-beam structures. There are in fact examples of several steel structures failing due to the distortion effect on steel by heat. Maybe not "completely" and dramatically collapsed, but the evidence is there to make it clear that steel that is unprotected from enough …
Posted to What's the 411 on 9/11?
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I know that all the people involved in air traffic could not have missed those planes and failed to contact NORAD without “help”. Now it looks like wiley suddenly seems to think that the controllers he previously accused of being "unimaginative, deadbeat children" were manipulated by nefarious and ominous forces from high above their pay-grade. Logic dictates that he owes them an apology......does it not? "Pssssst.....Debra.....Your husband is alive. He's trying to make it back to you. Tell Ted." Psssst Correction: I previously portrayed NORAD as having difficulty distinguishing fantasy from reality due to the fact that exercises were …
Posted to What's the 411 on 9/11?
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AD, I find it a wee bit disingenuous that the one little sentence that makes it clear that Bill Manning is thinking about mechanisms of collapse having nothing to do with deliberate implosion is religiously left out by the "truth" movement. I'm fully aware, as I stated, that Manning is upset with the investigation. However, I don't think he would be considered an asset to the prosecution in the case of "truth v Bush" after he responded to this question by the defense: Mr. Manning, do you have any reason to believe that the WTC towers were ultimately brought down deliberately …
Posted to What's the 411 on 9/11?
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wiley wrote: Fighters were supposed to get close to the aircraft to intercept and escort the aircraft to land, just like they had done 90 times before in 2001. It’s protocol. No matter how many times you misdirect and trivialize this it remains a simple concept---It’s routine. If you want a copy of their checklists, try a search engine. wiley, you're the expert, please outline and link to the protocol that was in effect the morning of 9/11, apparently not followed, that would have so easily facilitated the shoot-down of flight 11, and subsequently the shoot-down of flight 175, which hit …
Posted to What's the 411 on 9/11?
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Hmmm.....looks like you're leaning pretty heavily in the direction of manipulation. Let us know when you've reached your final decision!
Posted to What's the 411 on 9/11?
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O.K., I'll be direct with you, wileywitch. I'm just curious whether you've figured out your position regarding ATC/NORAD. You characterized them as bumbling mediocre unimaginative clods, and chastised me for making excuses for them, calling them victims and understanding their dilemma in light of the mindset before 9/11. But then you post items that make it clear that you believe there was manipulation from above. By this are you not making the grand-daddy of all excuses for them, and are they not the grand-daddy of all victims? Don't you agree that in order for one to believe that bombs were deliberately …
Posted to What's the 411 on 9/11?
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Natalie; Are you not constrained to conclude that indeed there was manipulation of the ATC/NORAD systems?.....Posted by luminous beauty on Jan 5, 2006 at 5:51 PM No, of course not. Please explain why I would be constrained to believe this when my contention (and nearly everyone else's in the country for that matter) is that our air defense/control systems performed well within, and in many respects exceeded, reasonable expectations that morning, given the fact that 19 "people" set out to do great deliberate harm to us via four separate attacks that were launched for all practical purposes, simultaneously. Do you think …
Posted to What's the 411 on 9/11?
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"Natalie, when you make up your mind have you ever changed your mind ?? Sure, David. But I like to think I base that change on some kind of credible evidence, not a bunch of out of context quotes and analysis by a bunch of hate or profit-motivated websites and authors, non of whom so far, to the best of my knowledge, are experts in structual engineering or even deliberate imposion. They do seem to be very good at surfing the web, though. Since we all enjoy tests so much I would like to share this as an aside : The …
Posted to What's the 411 on 9/11?
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"... and doesn’t Timothy McVeigh and the Oklahoma City Bombing have an odour too ?" Yeah, it stunk too. It stunk because some nut thought he had the authority to kill innocent people to advance a twisted agenda. But my point is could we have stopped it? Even after surely knowing of the contempt certain folks have for anything government, were we expecting an imminent attack by these folks? Shouldn't we have and done something prevent it? How could we have been so lax? Are you saying that we let that happen too? The only reason I can imagine is that …
Posted to What's the 411 on 9/11?
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So luminous, I think that's a yes, you DO believe in bombs in buildings. I knew ya did, just took a little coaxing. Last time I remember, you said "I don't necessarily buy into these theories", or something very close to that. Sorry if I missed something you said after that. Aside from a strange stance taken by a BYU physics professor who is reluctant to have his interpretations of the 2nd law of thermodynamics and 3rd law of motion scrutinized by anyone except a pro-Marxist economics publication, there is very little that has been offered to contradict the theory put …
Posted to What's the 411 on 9/11?
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wileywitch wrote earlier: "Air Traffic controllers are trained to deal with planes that don’t have their transponders on, unresponsive pilots, and hijackings. Any air traffic controller expressing befuddlement over dealing with a possible hijacking is sorely lacking in imagination and must have missed that class. Air traffic controllers and NORAD are designed to monitor all airspace under their jurisdiction. No one said that it was going to be easy." Now we're swinging back into the incompetence zone. You're giving me motion sickness. "Just a gentle reminder, the air traffic controllers and NORAD weren’t required to “stop” the attacks of 9/11, per …
Posted to What's the 411 on 9/11?
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Natalie; Professor Jones published his hypothesis, it is out there to read and criticize by anybody. Show me an analytical rebuttal to his hypothesis and then maybe we can discuss it. They are preparing to rebut as soon as they quit laughing. Jones's paper is a political statement, not a scientific one. I was already familiar with most of it before reading it, just by surfing the web, which is what he appears to have mainly done. That is why it won't be accepted by any genuine scientific or engineering journal or publication. (I predict, hoping I am right!) By the …
Posted to What's the 411 on 9/11?
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"So, what I hear you saying is that we failed to prevent the attack for emotional reasons, and because of a lack of imagination, and/or from an inability to believe that aircraft were being hijacked. Glad we’re on the same page." Maybe in the same book, but certainly not on the same page. Emotion played a part as always in everything, but it's not the "reason" for anything. If anything, there was imagination above and beyond protocol as stated in the report. There was no "dis-belief" that aircraft were being hijacked, only lack of knowledge of the intent of the hijackers. …
Posted to What's the 411 on 9/11?
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Quotes you'll never find on 9/11 conspiracy websites: Minutes after the south tower collapsed at the World Trade Center, police helicopters hovered near the remaining tower to check its condition. "About 15 floors down from the top, it looks like it's glowing red," the pilot of one helicopter, Aviation 14, radioed at 10:07 a.m. "It's inevitable." Seconds later, another pilot reported: "I don't think this has too much longer to go. I would evacuate all people within the area of that second building." Those clear warnings, captured on police radio tapes, were transmitted 21 minutes before the building fell, and officials …
Posted to What's the 411 on 9/11?
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More quotes you won't see on 9/11 conspiracy websites: "They told us to get out of there because they were worried about 7 World Trade Center, which is right behind it, coming down. We were up on the upper floors of the Verizon building looking at it. You could just see the whole bottom corner of the building was gone. We could look right out over to where the Trade Centers were because we were that high up. Looking over the smaller buildings. I just remember it was tremendous, tremendous fires going on. Finally they pulled us out. They said all …
Posted to What's the 411 on 9/11?
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wileywitch wrote: Natalie, you’re jumping ahead. But while you’re here, why don’t you explain to us how 9/11 was not a conspiracy. That’s the one I’m really looking forward to. How did this caper spontaneoulsy happen? I certainly don't believe that 9/11 was not a conspiracy. Dozens of members of al Qaeda had been working together (conspiring) in order to carry out the attacks since I believe about 1998. Hardly spontaneous. What's really impossible to believe is that the kind of conspiracy you're suggesting could spontaneously be kept secret by the dozens or even hundreds of people that would have had …
Posted to What's the 411 on 9/11?
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It is telling that Nat just blows by this quote from Richard Banaciski: What does that tell you, luminous? Thank you for helping to illustrate my point so beautifully. "We were there, I don’t know, maybe 10, 15 minutes and then I just remember there was just an explosion. It seemed like on television when they blow up these buildings. It seemed like it was going all the way around like a belt, all these explosions." Of course, there could be any number of reasons for explosions. Deliberate, nefarious placement is probably the least likely explanation. You've probably heard of echoes …
Posted to What's the 411 on 9/11?
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"The problem here Nat is there has never been a spontaneous collapse of a skyscraper like this before or since. To assert that firemen are trained to recognize such an imminent collapse is an unsupported, disingenuous...." luminous, the collapse was hardly spontaneous. By all accounts, and there are many, there were intense unattended fires burning in the building for many hours. There was extensive damage deep into one of the building's faces, which I believe was integral to the structure. You say there had never been such a collapse before, but that begs the question: Has there ever been an example …
Posted to What's the 411 on 9/11?
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Minerva, Your last post was not respectful to jumper cables, the dyslexic or the invisible, and was definitely off topic. But it was exceedingly funny! Copied and pasted in a safe place. Thanks.
Posted to What's the 411 on 9/11?
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luminous beauty said way back on Jan 7, 2006 at 11:54 PM: Nat said: Jones's paper is a political statement, not a scientific one. So luminous said: Really? No science at all? Fooled me. But you are the great scientific expert. Explain to me the politics of the Laws of Conservation of Momentum, please. Yes, Jones is fooling a lot of people. (Well, not a lot) He didn't fool his colleagues in the school of engineering and technology at BYU, however, or me. I guess you're asking how can a paper that contains the terms "Laws of Conservation of Momentum" and …
Posted to What's the 411 on 9/11?
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page 2 One particularly dishonest example of Jones's talent for quote manipulation is the excising of a key sentence from an early 2002 editorial by Bill Manning, former editor of Fire Engineering Magazine: Respected members of the fire protection engineering community are beginning to raise red flags, and a resonating [result] has emerged: The structural damage from the planes and the explosive ignition of jet fuel in themselves were not enough to bring down the towers. Fire Engineering has good reason to believe that the "official investigation" blessed by FEMA.....is a half-baked farce that may already have been commandeered by political …
Posted to What's the 411 on 9/11?
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page 3 Thanks goes to Rabbit for directing us to an article from the New York Times that describes the likely mechanisms of the collapse of WTC 7. It describes the transfer trusses, and the diesel. Steven Jones coincidentally references the article as well, so we know he is well aware of what it contains. But predictably, he leaves out all information that might do damage to his case. This does not indicate an honest effort to find the truth. Thanks, Rabbit Jones doesn't mention the huge amount of damage that was done to WTC 7 by the collapse of …
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page 4 Jones references Christopher Bollyn, a writer for "American Free Press", who's sister publication "The Barnes Review" is openly holocaust denial/revisionist. My personal memory of Bollyn was reading his article (thanks again to Rabbit) talking about the Windsor Tower fire in Madrid, calling the building's design "similar" to the WTC towers, but hey, it didn't collapse! In fact, the two are similar only in the regard that the one unprotected steel frame portion of the Windsor did indeed collapse. From this it is clear what a dishonest or at best uninformed "journalist" Bollyn is, but hardly surprising considering his other …
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wileywitch wrote that David Griffin wrote: 1. The omission of evidence that at least six of the alleged hijackers---including Waleed al-Shehri, said by the Commission probably to have stabbed a flight attendant on Flight 11 before it crashed into the North Tower of the WTC---are still alive (19-20). Please document this evidence for me, wiley. Show me how you affirmed to yourself that six (or more!) of the hijackers that appear in the 9/11 commission report are still actually alive.
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Luminous, The Bazant/Zhou analysis was presented as a tentative explanation as to the reasons for the collapse, which was somewhat surprising to most. The important point is that it was not terribly surprising to structural engineers, as evidenced by the promply produced analysis by Bazant and Zhou. It was produced only a few days after the attack and contained the qualifier: Closing Comments Once accurate computer calculations are carried out, various details of the failure mechanism will doubtless be found to differ from the present simplifying hypotheses. Errors by a factor of 2 would not be terribly surprising, but that would …
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I find it interesting that some people try to use as evidence for controlled demolition videos produced by folks such as "Implosionworld". There is one large problem with doing this, however. These demolition professionals, along with professionals capable of building the towers, don't for a second suspect the use of deliberately placed explosives: DID THE WORLD TRADE CENTER TOWERS ACTUALLY “IMPLODE”? No. They collapsed in an uncontrolled fashion, causing extensive damage to surrounding structures, roadways and utilities. Although when viewed from a distance the towers appeared to have telescoped almost straight down, a closer look at video replays reveal sizeable portions …
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luminous, You seem to be O.K. with someone using as a reference, material quoted on a site run by a Holocaust revisionist. It doesn't seem to raise the slightest bit of doubt in your mind as to the reliability or completeness of the information contained on a site who's publisher has no problem whitewashing and making up history as it pertains to the Holocaust. It would seem that Jones has no problem either, or perhaps he is unaware of the true nature and agenda of "American Free Press". (such a nice, innocent sounding name) The truth of Loizeaux's feelings and observations …
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Does anybody have any real evidence for six or more of the hijackers being still alive?
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So I guess no real evidence, then. Real would mean something that would cause an average person of average intelligence to sit up and think....Wow! This is amazing! Something that would make your average news reporter tingle all over and start shaking because he had found compelling evidence that six (or more!) of the hijackers listed in the commission report are still alive, and he/she was about to break a huge, huge story.
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I guess it's final then. None of you have any proof, real or otherwise, that six (or more!) of the hijackers pictured in the 9/11 commission report are still alive. Not one of them has seen fit to seek out a camera or a reporter in order to clear his name. Not one of them care that they have been falsely accused of participating in mass murder, and the very fact that they are alive and breathing would be obvious proof of their innocence. Imagine that. Yes, I know. There's all those reports from the BBC and CNN a few days …
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I think Seamus, or maybe Salim is messing with us. What's next? Everything comes out in Arabic? Seriously guys, Fix your comment board. Make the preview button work so it actually shows the results of the HTML. Provide HTML tools like other blog sites do. Put a navigational function on the last page so we can go back from there. I would think a user friendly comment board would serve to keep people coming to your site. Fixing it is in everybody's best interest.
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Rabbit says: "The passports, were shown worldwide. The owners of some of those passports came forward and were identified." OK, Rabbit, walk us through it. Show us (me) how the people came forward and were identified. Show me you have something other than a few confused reports that were understandably generated shortly after 9/11, based on the simple fact that there are nine gazillion people with the same names as the hijackers. Show me something that would move an administration hater like Seymour Hersh or Robert Fisk to break the incredible blockbuster news that would embarrass Bush like nothing else would, …
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Frog said: "Give us a link to that Loizeaux Interview. IF you are consistent you must allow us to judge on the owner of the paper in question." What possible relevance could there be in the source of my quotes? Why should it even matter from where they emanate?
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Frog said: "i must confess i thoroughly enjoy your...... approach....." Why, Thank You, Frog. I sensed your intellect and knew you would come around to my way of thinking. I knew I could convince you that this bombs in the buildings stuff is just a bunch of cannabis enhanced wishful thinking.
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P. Pete proclaims: "Yeah, the world went into shock and a whole bunch of greedy bastages profited on those deaths. Those people who would rather go SPLAT on the street than be burned to death. GWB acheived his TRIFECTA and American soldiers and billions of tax dollars (not paid by HIS pals) are being used to achieve his vision in Iraq! HIS agenda!! NeoCons may call themselves “conservative,” but they are just sociopaths who found a party and a system to twist and distort. The baaaa bat can kiss my chrome plated arse…" The mind is a terrible thing. "Paranoia will …
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LIke I said, luminous..... The mind is a terrible thing. And so is TV's effect on it. I still haven't heard from you regarding your thoughts on the significance (or lack thereof) of why Prof. Jones' paper has not been accepted/submitted for publication in any legitimate scientific/engineering/physics journal/publication. How about projecting upon us your explanation for this? I looked inside and asked myself this very basic question. I answered my question. Can you answer it?
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You're stalling, Rabbit. I'm looking for something real, something tangible, not gobbltygoop. Try again. Rabbit doesn't get the joke? Surely, he gets the joke. He's just playing dumb.
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Pete's quick w/ the blockquotes, and they're relevant, too. Kudos to Pete. ITT's webmaster is apparently on vacation.
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"Some video of any of them at the airports would be nice." Oh, so now you're asking for video? When I do it it's a sin, when you do it.....oh yeah......the exemption. Maybe my memory's faulty, but I thought I remembered lots and lots of video of the hijackers at the airport. Perhaps I imagined all that. CNN's in on it! "An online cottage industry of theorists, theory debunkers and debunker debunkers has flourished since 9/11. Sometimes the flimsy theories are easy to spot—come on, if the four passenger jets didn’t crash where it appears they did, where did they …
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No cold wiley, feeling fine, thanks..............no, not really. I just learned that my own mother in law believes that Japan is controlling the weather by way of some kind of device they use. Via Art Bell et all, it seems. I think I might be in the last stages of denial. Struggling to cling to by belief that stuff usually just happens, and not that there's always some dark nefarious group of former CEO's and neocons maniplating the world to their advantage. It's getting harder and harder. My own Mother in law!
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Oh my, Rabbit. Your concerns over depleted uranium may be unfounded, at least according to Col. Donde Grande. And he hasn't been wrong on a single thing yet! AJ: How did the military ever get convinced to use depleted uranium in areas where there is going to be troops? DGP: To put what Alex? AJ: Well, yeah, the military gets treated like dog meat. You've got the depleted uranium, Colonel, where they spray the depleted uranium everywhere where the troops breathe it at 1900 times safe levels. How can the Pentagon put up with that? DGP: Well, the DU rounds are …
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He's a friend of Rabbit's. See the link above... "Here it is" Posted by Rabbit on Feb 4, 2006 at 5:43 AM
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The Witch said: "Tell you what, Nat. Make this a challenge for us. Instead of one or more of us going around looking up information for you to ignore, why don’t you ask questions about DU? Throw some out for all of us. Try to make us believe that you are open to persuasion and not just playing silly little soul-less games. Consider it a challenge." O.K., how about this question: What is the source for The Rabbit's claim?: "50% of returning soldiers children are being born with the expected deformities." It doesn't seem believable to me. However, I'm open to …
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"NAT the recidivist non - answerer. Asked you a simple polite question twice. Your non-answer to me seems to be that since all sources of information are unreliable, none should be sourced unless YOU, in your wisdom should choose so to demand." I don't why you would think that I think that all sources of information are unreliable. However, I have given specific reasons why certain sources that I've criticized are worthy of such. I've pointed out instances of the deliberate manufacturing of an opinion by way of selective quoting. Sorry, Frog. I didn't mean to be impolite in not giving …
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"As it happens the Rabbit deliberately salted his post with the claim of half the returning vet’s babies being born with deformities. The figure is high but actually I couldn’t recall the exact detail and didn’t want to spoil a good rant, with the added spice of being able to select the ground for a Bat wacking. " So in other words, you were just pulling figures out of your hat. So much for "truth". I think we've got a Chris Bollyn protoge' in our midst. Hey, no more italics! (I hope) Thanks for fixing that, Rabbit.
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No, I think you may need a class, luminous. I'm not sure exactly what kind, maybe start with Journalism 101. I see your point though, you are correct to say that Jones doesn't technically imply that Loizveaux believes in bombs in buildings. I'm quite confident, however, that what an average reader takes away from Jones' quote of Loizeaux is very different from what Loizeaux would express if he were to comment on this whole sordid affair. As evidence for this, I offer the relatively recent actual interview that I quoted from and linked to. If I were a scientist trying to …
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Prof. Jones recently conducted another seminar about his controversial theory. It was already clear to me that the root of his discontent was political, but now it's crystal clear to everyone. I hope this practice of mixing political ideology with science is not as prevalent in the college classroom as I fear it is. slide show & mp3
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Considering the fact that I posted a link to Jones' entire presentation above, I'm apparently not too hurt by it. But this would hardly be the first time you were wrong about what I think or feel. "Natty and the new baton holder (sshh! he think’s it’s a baton) take note that the truth is spreading. The natural progression of a coverup is it’s unravelling. How basic is that?" I so look forward to the day when (if) Jones breaks into the public spotlight. He is a politically motivated fool, and he will be literally sliced and diced if he does. …
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III. Conclusion Despite the destructive fire that raged inside the impact area on 9/11, pieces of debris were visible on 9/13 and 9/14, and were photographed by recovery workers. These photos clearly show pieces of landing gears, a large turbofan engine, and fuselage. The evidence inside the building is consistent with the evidence of plane wreckage outside -- indicating that a commercial airliner flew into the Pentagon on September 11th. fair and balanced? You know what they say about broken clocks.
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Personally Rabbit believes a plane hit the Pentagon, preceded by a missile maybe, but it was not the plane that was claimed, that much is a certainty. Rabbit, forensic analysis using DNA, dental ID, and other methods has identified nearly all of the Pentagon victims: gory details If the plane was preceded by a missile, I would expect that there would be numerous reports of two separate impact explosions. Are you aware of any? First you concede that indeed a 757 (but not flight 77) hit the Pentagon....As said the rabbit has never doubted a plane hit the Pentagon, …
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I take all this emoting to mean that indeed there are no reports of two separate impact explosions. I guess that leaves two possibilities: 1) the plane and the missile arrived at precisely the same time. 2) the missile employed a new kind of stealth technology that masks out all sound and vibration. A variation on the "neutron bomb", if you will.
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Rabbit said: "Bin Laden in the last genuine and fully accredited live appearance, denied a second time that he or Al-Qeada had anything to do with it." Now that's just categorically untrue. Bin Laden admitted to the act in the video found in Afghanistan, and also in his more recent 2004 appearance. There was an initial report in a Pakistani paper of him denying involvement, but in retrospect, if these were actually his words, (could easily have been Taliban disinfo) it's pretty obvious he was simply trying to deny the U.S. the legitimacy of invading Afghanistan. On October 29, 2004, at …
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You're in some pretty deep 9/11 denial, there David. You're gonna trust a politically motivated rumor monger over sophisticated voice and face analyzing technology? I can't trust my own personal powers of facial recognition? Everything's faked? I guess everything has to be in order to continue this line of denial. Consider for a moment that Michael Rivero might just be the one who's faking you out here, and is making a tidy profit by doing it. I would love it if he (bin Laden) were in fact dead, but I'm afraid he's simply not. more to the story
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Isn’t it possible that the person who created that site you linked to is a politically motivated rumor monger and just faking you out and making a tidy profit by doing it ?? Where is the sophisticated voice and face analyzing technology ? Just like I suppose it's possible that some collection of neocons and CEOs pulled off the crime of all time and deliberately murdered thousands of people in order to benefit Haliburton, I suppose it's possible what you say about 9/11myths, David. There just isn't any evidence for it, is all. Especially saying that 9/11myths is about profit. Myths …
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This is incontrovertible proof that Chris Bollyn is a deliberately misleading journalist. In fact, the words "journalist" and "Chris Bollyn" shouldn't appear within a hundred miles of each other. Out of all the "truth" articles that have abused and misused Bill Manning's Fire Engineering editorial from Jan. 2002, this particular article is far and away the most blatant. Instead of simply leaving out the key sentence that would of course make referring to Manning's editorial counterproductive in the first place, Bollyn actually uses part of the sentence and weaves it in and out of his own words to create his desired …
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9/11 cops saw collapse coming New York Daily News - June 19th, 2004 By PAUL H.B. SHIN The World Trade Center towers showed telltale signs they were about to collapse several minutes before each crumbled to the ground, scientists probing the Sept. 11, 2001, disaster said yesterday. In the case of the north tower, police chopper pilots reported seeing the warning signs - an inward bowing of the building facade - at least eight minutes before it collapsed at 10:29 a.m. But emergency responders inside the tower never got the order to evacuate due to faulty communications equipment and garbled lines …
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I'll see your Charlie Sheen and raise you a Penn & Teller: Hot & Steamy
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Penn and Teller's little film was certainly not meant to be any kind of detailed point by point rebuttal of "9/11 Loose Change" or "In Plane Site". But it is an unabashed expression of anger at those who can't for some reason accept the simple reality that a bunch of brainwashed murderers took advantage of a free nation's inherent vulnerabilities. The last segment with the balloon illustrates this quite elegantly and humorously. They're angry because rational people know who is responsible for the events of that day, and understand that no amount of perceived political injustice is grounds for deliberately, and …
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If a party was behind one of the events, it was almost certainly a factor in the others. If the Pentagon was hit by a missile, then the whole story about hijackers falls apart. If the “hijackers” are alive, the whole story falls apart. If Flight 93 landed and remained in Cleveland, the whole story falls apart. And so on. nyvegan, Yes, if any of these things could indeed be proven true, I would agree that the whole story of that day would have to be re-evaluated. In fairness, I'm sure that you would in turn agree that if a substantial …
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Rabbit? What the? BOTH those killer hurricanes George Bush directed your way missed their target? Just kidding, nice to hear from you, as always ....... ;-) This shill just stopped by a while back to post some new (to me) information, that being that the perimeter columns were observed bowing inward eight minutes before collapse. Of course the first thing that came to mind was that this was the thermite at work, but when I realized that the jet impact would certainly have dislodged it here at the impact zone, I came to suspect that maybe, just maybe, the mechanism of …
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Item 1: Operation Northwoods "Loose Change", (LC hereafter) tells us about a series of proposals that were allegedly presented by the military to officials in the JFK administration, some of which arguably involved deliberate acts of murder in order to justify military action against Cuba. Presumably, this is evidence that murdering thousands on 9/11 is well within America's propensity. First of all, one can't help but notice the blind willingness of the LC "skeptics" to accept that the Northwoods documents are authentic. After listening to everyone from Alex Jones to Stephen Jones tell us that anything and everything coming from the …
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"Ah yes but Natalie the impossibility of the cell phone calls getting through from the height of flight 93 does render that part of the story to deception." Rabbit, why is the idea that Islamic terrorists were foiled by ordinary Americans so distasteful to you? Is it because you so wanted to see the Whitehouse destroyed? Is it because it undermines your theory that there were no hijackers to begin with? After all, if one admits that the hijackers existed, then it becomes necessary to convince people of the even zanier notion that our government worked in concert with these goons …
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"Well we traditionally use the FACT of Operation Northwoods to answer dildos like you who claim the US government would not kill ANY of it’s citizens in false terror attacks, and the scale doesn’t really change that fact for those of us who still maintain a real humanity and not just some fake pretence and hollow slogans." No, I didn't say Northwoods was a myth, in fact I said I believed it is probably authentic. What I did say was how strange it is, that this particular piece of info is trusted as true and accurate by Rabbits and Frogs, and …
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There's a definite parallel between the collapse of the WTC buildings, and depleted uranium. There has not been a shred of credible peer-reviewed evidence presented to back up wild claims such as thermite induced collapse or gruesome birth defects in Afgan children. Or any children for that matter. Sorry.....a bunch of un-sourced, undocumented likely doctored pics on Rense.com just doesn't pass muster. Nothing but nonsensical, unsupported rumor-based psuedo-scientific gossip, which is all rooted around the need to deny the threat of Islamic terrorism, and thereby the need to respond to it in any kind of forceful way.
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Item 2: Remotely controlled Boeing 720 was used for crash/fuel research in late 1984. I guess this is suppose to butter us up to the possibility that jets were flown by remote control into their targets on 9/11. Well, I suppose this is pretty good proof that remote control operation would have theoretically been possible; however, the practicality of this being used on 9/11 to hit relatively small targets is questionable. Not to mention all the other evidence that there were indeed hijackers on board controlling the situation and not computers. Communications from passengers describing the situation, the voice of …
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"US Lung Cancer Rates soar, due to DU. See, if you wait long enough, the proof will be arriving in your own backyard." Funny, upon examining the transcript of the CNN show referenced by Rense, I could find no mention of any increase in lung cancer rates, and certainly not of DU. http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0603/08/ltm.05.html Do you think this might be why the Rense article failed to reference the transcript? Perhaps I'm missing something.
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Do you not even comprehend what I'm saying to you? Your Rense article specifically references the CNN program on March 6, and specifically says that they said things they apparently never said, according to their transcipt. Rense doesn't link you to the transcript. Does this not mean anything at all to you?
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"List of Scholars for 9/11 Truth This is only one organisation of course, though it is currently something of a flagship. Read the roll and it is obvious why this would be. Now could we see a similar list of supporters for the official story please? You can include the US government, which gives you at least one name already.." This is what a list of "scholars" should look like. Notice the ability to click on a persons name and get a complete bio, including type and origin of college degrees, and work experience.
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According to the CDC, lung cancer incidence and death have been steadily falling for males, and have been leveling off for females for quite some time now. They claim the latest year that statistics are available is 2002. I wonder how Dr. James comes about his statistics. He doesn't say. Does it not strike you as a little outlandish that they would increase that much? This trend would amount to somthing like a 600 percent increase by the end of the year. And all that DU got over here how? I don't see a big spike after the Gulf War. …
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"Do the actual facts, irrespective of who reports them not matter to you? It is you who is being ignorant, as always." You've helped to demonstrate, Rabbit, by hightlighting Rense, that it certainly does matter who reports "facts". I've repeatedly demonstrated how articles that appear on Rense routinely ignore, manipulate, or exclude facts. The CNN thing is just the latest example. There was the story about one of the 9/11 flights supposedly landing in Cleveland that had deliberately twisted information from a local tv station. There was the thing about the Windsor tower fire, where we were told that it had …
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"The Uranium Medical Research Centre (UMRC) is one organization that has effectively used the Internet (through media stories and list serves) to raise funds and spin myths about DU. UMRC has successfully exploited scientific uncertainty and government negligence to promote its goals, which seem to be a mixture of ideology, publicity, and fundraising. UMRC’s report about Afghanistan, mentioned in the previous section, offers no data or source to support its contention that the U.S. used hundreds of thousands of pounds of “non-depleted uranium” in its missiles and bombs, yet by simply posting a paper with this claim on its Web site, …
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"Do the speculations of anti-DU advocates tend to the extremes of extrapolation? In some cases, undoubtedly. In other cases, as in the explosion of otherwise inexplicable birth defects among Afghanis, Iraqis and US military personnel, perhaps not extreme enough. However, without increased tranparency and accountability, we’ll never know the truth, will we? Do you not agree?" The point is, Luminous, that no credible evidence or commonly accepted scientific studies are ever provided to back up wild claims such as "exploding birth defects among Afghanis, Iraqis, and U.S. military personnel." Rabbit's Rense page of horrors is a good example. Just a bunch …
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Frog wrote: "John Pilger, the STAR OZ reporter, interviewed many Iraqi doctors in the 90’s, who were not propagandists for saddam , just, you know, ‘doctors’—those people in white coats with stethoscopes---, facing an unprecedented explosion in malformed babies." I can't imagine anything more naive than assuming that Iraqi doctors would not be seriously killed for disseminating anything other than the most dire reports about the supposed effects of the Great Satan's weapons. Depleted Uranium is simply not capable of producing an "unprecedented explosion in malformed babies". Saddam, however, was apparently capable of producing an unprecedented explosion in mass graves containing …
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Yes, very good, quality information, Luminous. Credible. Take notice, everyone. That's what I'm talkin' bout. I only have time for a short note, and wll analyze the info in greater depth later.
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Actually the rabbit has long since drifted the interesting hypothesis that Natalie is Natalie Helbig, and this could explain their mutual need for the most horrible of genocidal weapons on the planet. Some sort of Unnatural father daughter relationship. With a job like this, I must make pretty good money. I must have a nice car. I'm gonna check my driveway.
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The first study linked above by luminous beauty is called "Teratogenicity of depleted uranium aerosols: A review from an epidemiological perspective", by Rita Hindin, et al. This presentation is head and shoulders above say, a Rense page of horrors or an ICH litany of recycled unverifiable hyperbole. It appears to be basically a report on a lot of other reports, and not strictly a research paper done by an expert in the field. Which is fine, except that I got the impression that the author(s) want DU to be the culprit a little too much. They ignore many factors that …
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pg. 2 There's no mention of Saddam's chemical warfare/genocidal activity both pre and post war, anywhere in the report, which would be a far more likely explanation than DU for a variety of maladies in heaven knows how many places in Iraq. (captured Iraqi documentation is currently being translated that may shed light on specific areas that were targeted, and when.) And there is no mention of the possibility that disbursement of Sadddam's chemical/biological/radiological agents (due to U.S. bombardment) could be a factor. "On the first day of my visit to the labor and gynecological ward in the hospital, there …
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pg. 3 While these weapons had many terrible direct effects such as immediate death, or skin and eye burns, Iraqi government documents indicate they were used deliberately for known long-term effects, including cancers, birth defects, neurological problems and infertility. Inexpensive in terms of death per unit cost, there is evidence that these weapons were used in different combinations by Ba'ath forces attempting to discern their effectiveness as weapons of terror and war. It is believed that the Iraqi arsenal included at least a dozen chemical and biological agents, including those mentioned above, and others such as anthrax, hemorrhagic conjunctivitis virus and …
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pg. 4 Finally, it's obvious that the writers have little expertise on the subject personally, which is O.K., but the aura of a research paper is pierced by the realization that this is just a rather selective report on a lot of other reports, with all conclusions seeming to want to paint DU as the prime suspect in everything, when according to a plethora of studies by folks that do have genuine expertise in the field, DU is probably the least likely factor in any rise in incidence of birth defects, anywhere. To her credit, Rita includes reference to a …
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I can only assume that reference to the study "Miscarriage, stillbirth and congenital malformation in the offspring of UK veterans of the first Gulf war" is an example of balance being exercised by luminous beauty: Conclusion..... We found no evidence for a link between paternal deployment to the Gulf war and increased risk of stillbirth, chromosomal malformations, or congenital syndromes. Associations were found between fathers' service in the Gulf war and increased risk of miscarriage and less well-defined malformations, but these findings need to be interpreted with caution as such outcomes are susceptible to recall bias. The finding of a …
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All I can say Nat is that your talent for cherry-picking only the words that support your position from an abstract, argumentum ad hominem, and post hoc ergo propter hoc are marvelously consistent. That's all you can say? You don't find it odd that a paper purporting to determine the possible role of DU in teratogenicity glosses over far more probable causes of it, and ignores the likely possibility that the Iraq data it does choose to highlight has been fudged? Or that the only example of actual human inhalation/ingestion/insertion of DU into the human body (friendly fire) is barely even …
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Natalie, You say, "a paper purporting to determine the possible role of DU in teratogenicity glosses over far more probable causes of it. This is what you call "glossing over": Wow, you're really obfuscating my point. However, your reproduction of all those paragraphs of the report helps to sustain it. Which is, again, not that the report doesn't make a weak case for a remote possibility of a connection between DU exposure and some birth defects, but that far more likely causes of birth defects, specifically chemical and/or radiological agents deployed by Saddam, and other factors important to consider, are …
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I'm sorry Nat, but epidemiological studies don't work in the way that you seem to think that they should. They are primarily interested in trying to remove wheat from the chaff in the attempt to isolate a single causal factor in a given phenomenon. Understood, however, why do the authors speculate, as if confused, as to why would all these defects would be showing up in the absence of "specific chemical or radiologic exposures", as per my quoting of them above in my previous post. They are ignoring reports (and common sense) that there were indeed such exposures. This study is …
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pg. 2 My recollection of Baathist propaganda is that they were more concerned with minimizing the effects of sanctions. My recollection is different. In addition to NGOs and others whining about the effects of sanctions and of course ignoring the real culprit, Saddam's regime was the most potent cheerleader, for it was best positioned to manufacture false propaganda. No doubt that Saddam was concerned with looking strong and defiant for his people and other Arab nations, but he was also engaged in evoking sympathy for, and falsely assigning blame for, problems HE created by putting his own power and health/wealth WAY …
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luminous asked: "If Basra records are suspicious, is the proper course to try to ascertain through diligent investigation whether they are or not reasonably accurate, or dismiss them out of hand and believe for a fact they are wildly inaccurate merely on the basis of your suspicions?" I would be all for the UN, the W.H.O., the Royal Society, RAND, anyone who are genuine, relevant, accredited degree-holding, unbiased professionals going in and investigating the heck out of Basra, Bahgdad, or wherever. Interestingly, the W.H.O. offered to come in and determine the cause of alleged illnesses in 1998, but Saddam refused. You …
Posted to What's the 411 on 9/11?
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If the results of rigorous investigation show, contrary to your hopes, that inhalation of micro-sized uranium dust does contribute to serious health problems, then what will you say? Then I will say I am sorry and that I was wrong, obviously. Fortunately, I will be in good company. Hundreds of highly qualified professionals in the fields of radiation/health/physics/ will be sorry as well. But I don't expect that to be the case, and of course biased pseudo-science is not admissible. What will it take to convince you that you might be wrong, and that you have helped contribute to a …
Posted to What's the 411 on 9/11?
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Froggy, you are overly focused on the DOD. In addition to military studies, several other government and non-government scientific organizations all over the world have all concluded that DU is not much of a danger at all. You make an astute observation in that hey, the military blew it on vaccinations, so why trust it on DU? It's apples and oranges, though, because uranium is a long-known quantity, and its (non) effect on humans has been studied and documented for decades. I don't think the same could be said about the vaccinations ...... this is where anger and resources should be …
Posted to What's the 411 on 9/11?
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lume, Sorry if I misinterpreted your position. Perhaps we're really not that far apart on the issue, as I'm sure you're not blind to the consensus in the scientific community that would contrast with much of what has been put forth by those arguing against DU. I'm not against further study, but on the other hand, there HAS been a lot of study. Don't you think it's somewhat of a red herring to use the fact that there has been some reluctance by the military to provide information, in order to characterize the whole "pro DU" argument as being somehow limited …
Posted to What's the 411 on 9/11?
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Gosh, for someone so boring, Rabbit, I certainly seem to have initiated quite a surge in your beta brain wave activity, not to mention that of your finger tips. Thank you for your recent contributions, but before considering this further input from you to be at all credible, I'm going to have to insist that you provide some kind of documentation to back-up the claim contained in your prior link, which for some reason wasn't reflected in the actual CNN transcript: "On the March 8, 2006 edition of the CNN American Morning program with Miles O'Brien and Soledad O'Brien, they …
Posted to What's the 411 on 9/11?
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It is too late to go back. If you failed to keep up back there that’s your problem, the rabbit ALREADY ANSWERED your whinge about the sources and provided the links beyond CNN at May 1, 2006 at 3:05 AM. Pay attention! Well, no, you pay attention! Your "answer" of May 1 to my "whinge" was noted in my above post. Also evident, if you had been paying attention!, would have been the fact that in your "answer", the exact same statistics are simply reproduced, again without substantiation. So I guess one might conclude that your "answer" was not an answer …
Posted to What's the 411 on 9/11?
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That's a beautifully written block of psycho-babble, luminous. It's looking like you really are a shrink. You have a way with words, but I'm afraid they add up to not much more than a huge pile of hypocrisy. You talk about me accusing sources of bias, and questioning their credibility on that basis, yet I remember several instances of you doing the exact same thing. You question my mental health, but fail to recognize that I'm the one who has merely cited the consensus in the scientific and medical community regarding DU, and in the engineering community regarding the collapse of …
Posted to What's the 411 on 9/11?
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luminous, I'm glad to see that you weren't accusing me of being unreachable, and that you don't think I'm crazy. And I'm glad to learn that your Freudian characterization of me as just an unknowing cog in perhaps a slightly suspicious gear in an evil machine is quite possibly "not necessarily a determinative description of reality." (wink and a smile) I'm certainly very happy to be your friend, as I'm sure we both have the same wishes for world peace, prosperity and security; just different opinions on how to achieve these. You are an extremely talented writer and thinker, and you …
Posted to What's the 411 on 9/11?
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pg. 2..... Conversely, I find a *lot that makes me suspect that the guys that put out the studies in Basra were heavily under the control of the Baath party, in fact likely Baathists themselves, although I haven't found anything to confirm the latter. * Thus, from 1979 onward, Basrah University had not only suffered from three wars and sanctions, but also from the central government's intentional neglect, oppression and disrespect for higher education...... .......Professor Salman never thought he'd be in such a position of responsibility, but following the regime change a few months ago, his fellow teachers elected him …
Posted to What's the 411 on 9/11?
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Wow, gone for a few days and you folks have boosted this puppy into nine pages. I see a lot of angst and anger directed at myself, and America's foreign policies. That's fine, and perhaps some of what you say is justified. However, consider the larger picture. Upwards of 250 million people were murdered by their own goverments in the 20th century alone, and I'm afraid the US is not much of a contributer to this total. When you also consider the supreme effort we've put forth in the last 50-75 years to work against this kind of murderous …
Posted to What's the 411 on 9/11?
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A long time ago, nyvegan posted partially this: 2. Actually watch the video, and make a similar list of the things that are demonstrable, verifiable, and which are in keeping with the laws of nature (e.g., the melting point of titanium; the size of a hole in the Pentagon relative to the size of a 757. Also include those highly statistically improbable coincidences (e.g., a Pentagon planner evaluating the impact of a 757 crash into the Pentagon later becomes the pilot of a 757 plane that allegedly does precisely that; 3 skyscrapers collapsed within 7 hours of one another, when …
Posted to What's the 411 on 9/11?
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Rabbit said a while back: Upon reflection Rabbit has not been fair to the Lung Cancer referance, I see that Doctor Howenstine only referenced the Story on CNN, which has been removed from their transcript on the net. This is a common practice for TV stations who have been contacted by certain forces about a story they have aired. Too late to stop the story but at least they remove it from the transcript. Such actions show more than they hide to those who are paying atention. Thank you for finally kind of admitting, Rabbit, that your previous sources alluding to …
Posted to What's the 411 on 9/11?
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I noticed the very first Nattypost was answered by jsalsman, 27aug05, with a ref to DNA changes. That first post showed the Bat to be a lover of DDT, GMOs, and Pesticides in general, and an enemy of the same scare-mongering unscientific kooky fringe who pointed out years ago that coaldust killed miners, and asbestos killed shipbuilders. Interesting, Frog, that you would mention James Salsman. He recognizes that there's virtually no radiation danger associated with depleted uranium, and is not 100% comfortable with people using that as a device to discredit it. His contention is that DU vapors, oxides, fumes …
Posted to What's the 411 on 9/11?
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Frog, Thank you for pointing out the less than ethical nature of Steven Milloy. I was not familiar at all with him, his reputation, or his conflicts of interest. Not a good choice of sources, certainly. I was simply looking for an article with which to further illustrate my point, that being that DDT has been unfairly demonized, and that demonization has contributed to its use being discouraged or curtailed in areas where it could save many, many lives. Perhaps it never occured to me to question the points raised in the Junkscience article because I had read basically the same …
Posted to What's the 411 on 9/11?
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Touche!
Posted to What's the 411 on 9/11?
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Natty, If you really want to inform yourself on the raging so-called DDT controversy with a little science, fact and reason to temper the distorted polemics of the right-wing editorials you cite, please play this fascinating and informative little GAME. It provides a soothing emetic to all the toxic politically charged mis-information you so eagerly gulp down like bon-bons. Lumey, I was attempting to illustrate by my quotes and their authors that the same attitude about DDT emanates from the left as well as the right. As in the case of eminent domain, it would seem that there's some fairly broad …
Posted to What's the 411 on 9/11?
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part 2..... Brian Sharp, who is leading South Africa's house-spraying program, said that some international research agencies will not finance studies in any way associated with DDT. Roll Back Malaria sees its mosquito-control strategy as promoting bed nets, period. Its 2003 Africa report hardly mentions house spraying. The Global Fund to Fight AIDS, Tuberculosis and Malaria -- which uses guidelines set by W.H.O. -- currently finances no DDT. Vinand Nantulya, senior adviser to the fund's executive director, said that the fund might theoretically supply DDT to a country that requests it -- but none have. This is no surprise: these countries …
Posted to What's the 411 on 9/11?
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part 3...... This is a recent editorial from a Kenyan paper, which offers evidence that DDT was indeed banned, and that at least the perceived reason for it was the influence of environmental groups: "The insecticide was banned several years ago following pressure by environmental lobbyists, despite the fact that indoor residual spraying (IRS) with DDT eradicated malaria in the US and Europe and led to spectacular declines in the disease in other countries." May 8, 2006 DAR ES SALAAM (Reuters) - Tanzania is lifting a 2004 ban on the pesticide DDT so it can be used to fight …
Posted to What's the 411 on 9/11?
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I can scarcely think of anyone less qualified to offer advice or analysis than Jimmy Carter. Appease Prize
Posted to The Georgia Preach
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The FrontpageMag link offered by Natalie is, as usual, pure distortion. No, I think it's pretty accurate, for the most part. Carter's crushing landslide defeat in 1980 is I think a better barometer of the soundness of Carter's judgement and analysis than is a book by the loser himself. Not to mention the positive results that came from a 180 degree turn in foreign and domestic policy.
Posted to The Georgia Preach
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"More War crimes." I wonder if the depth of research for this story was similar to this one. Don't believe everything you read, Rabbit. That goes for all of us.
Posted to Democrats: It's the War
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Rabbit has shown himself to be very careful about what he believes.... The thing which is certain is that the official story is a lie, and by the way Barbara Olsen looks like she has just turned up alive, so you were right about nobody turning up alive, only until yesterday. You see that is the thing with lies Natalie, they eventually can only fall. Only truth is here here to stay and even it must suffer constant assault by such as you. "May the ghost of Barbara Olson haunt you mercilessly" -- Karnack, the Magnificent
Posted to Democrats: It's the War
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Thanks, Jay, for all you've written. I agree whole-heartedly with most of what you've expressed, and have added your blog to my reading list. Fare Well, as well, although I hope you'll be posting more here at ITT on other subjects. Natalie
Posted to Democrats: It's the War
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"By The Way, Jay. The Professor Jones report is the end of the planes and fuel did it case, which is why the government Shill, Natalie, gave up." Fanciful thinking, and as is usually the case when a certain someone tries to characterize me or my motivations, quite wrong. A stimulating, substantive discussion on the subject of the WTC towers (and bldg. 7) collapses: PhysOrgForums Ongoing back and forth. Very interesting spirited discussion. As for Jones, I am dissapointed that he apparently has ended his media appearances / interviews. I was looking forward to this issue coming out of the …
Posted to Democrats: It's the War
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It's a panoply of the absurd and yet entirely of this world. Historian Dieter Groh writes that conspiracy theorists "represent a constant temptation for all of us" because they are a constant in western history. According to Groh, "the historical sequence before the French Revolution is one of Jews, heretics, witches, followed by Jews, Communists, capitalists, and secret services" after the revolutionary year of 1789. As diverse as these theories and their adherents may be, they share a basic thought pattern: great tragedies must have great reasons. According to this way of thinking, it would be impossible for a small group …
Posted to Democrats: It's the War
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"Rabbit will not waste his time. They are alive you dimwit, they have been interviewed, they have absolutely been proven to be alive as far as any news can be, heh, maybe the US is not in Iraq at all?" I assume you can provide links to the video interviews of these people, so we can compare their likenesses to the photos of the men included in the final 9/11 commission report. These interviews would presumably be of high profile and interest, widely disseminated, since they would conclusively prove that the commission report was fatally flawed, at least in this respect. …
Posted to Democrats: It's the War
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"......Arup's review of NIST's findings and its own analysis led it to conclude that NIST has not satisfactorily demonstrated its main conclusion....." NIST lacking
Posted to Democrats: It's the War
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I'll see your pasty white BYU Mormon fundamentalist solar physicist professor and raise you one Arab structural engineering professor from of all places Berkley, CA. "Natalie, Professor Astaneh received a research grant from the National Science Foundation to go to New York and to Investigate the collapse of twin towers of the World Trade Center. This may have been because he was quite highly qualified and recognized in the ‘scientific community’ as an expert in his field." ...... Posted by whit on Oct 15, 2005 at 9:44 AM (God Squad thread) From his report: (This is just a pdf file, …
Posted to Democrats: It's the War
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"Your post will be dealt with Vampire, but first it is time for Rabbit to remove the gloves, he is so utterly tired of your snivelling innuendos, character asainations and gross dishonesty. Rabbit has seen you metamorphose from a supposedly open minded innocent All Ameican Girl, to a heartless, cold and stubborn proponent of all the worst in the world. You are like the embodiment of Satan, and you are absolutely, beyond any doubt a Shill, whether or not you have opther duties for the Beast, is unknowable, but that you are married to the Great Whore of Babylon is long …
Posted to Democrats: It's the War
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Yes, David, it is interesting to wonder what the effect would be, should the deliberate implosion theory become truly mainstream. So far as I 'm aware, Prof. Jones is the first proponent of such to appear anywhere in the mainstream news, even landing an interview on a low rated cable news network. (MSNBC) However, his first appearance was his last. For reasons unknown, Jones has sequestered himself from further interviews. I'm not sure if anyone knows exactly who is going to publish his paper, and whether it HAS been peer-reviewed, is GOING to be peer-reviewed, and what exactly constitutes peer review …
Posted to Democrats: It's the War
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You've raised a lot of dust here recently Rabbit, since I responded to your assertion about the "surviving hijackers". Is it perhaps to obscure the fact that you indeed aren't able to link me to any videos of these men, enabling us to compare them to the photos in the commission report? If I was wrongly accused of murdering 2000 or so people and destroying billions worth of property, I think I would seek out the nearest reporter with a camera to clear my name. I think that reporter would be extremely interested in a blockbuster story such as this, and …
Posted to Democrats: It's the War
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--Up to eight of the "alleged hijackers", are alive and well. And no video of any of them. How convenient. How ridiculous. Not even Judge Jones mentions this nonsense. --The buildings fell in a manner consistent with controlled demolitions in "every respect". Every event is perfectly explainable and has been by people actually qualified to do so. The same kind of people that were responsible for designing and building the towers, no job for small minds, that. Do you think that Judge Jones would be capable of specifying the structural specifications necessary for keeping near quarter mile high buildings standing and …
Posted to Democrats: It's the War
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pg. 2 --No planes crashing into a building or fires alone have caused such a collapse, or indeed any major collapse in history, these fires were despite occasioanl attempts to say otherwise, obviously of short duration, and relatively cold f by building fire standards. Well I might mention just in passing that at least from my memory, no near quarter mile tall skyscrapers of the unique and "innovative" design of the WTC towers have been hit deliberately by large jet liners full of fuel, had several structual members severed or badly damaged and had God knows how intense of fires distorting …
Posted to Democrats: It's the War
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pg. 3 --The government removed ALL the structural evdence and had it destroyed overseas. The FBI has confiscated all photo and video evidence and is refusing to allow anyone to see it, including the "SO CALLED" investigations it trots out once in a while. This is considered PROOF of complicity in a court of law. Clearly erroneous. If you had been able or willing to view the Berkley Arab steel structure expert's report, you would have learned that he had access to plenty of structural evidence. It is obvious from the NIST report that plenty of steel was preserved for study: …
Posted to Democrats: It's the War
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pg. 4 You seem willing to believe virtually anything that happens to reflect badly on America, Britain and even Australia for taking action to defend against Islamic terrorism and totalitarianism. Gerard Mathew's baby is missing fingers certainly because her dad breathed a few DU molecules, even though the dozens of people who were actually in tanks hit by friendly fire DU have had no abnormal rates of deformed offspring, and exposure to radiation is not even an indicator of offspring defects. You're very open to the possibility that American flight 77 didn't really crash into the Pentagon and Barbara Olson is …
Posted to Democrats: It's the War
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As much as it pains me to say it, I was quite premature and simply bigoted to initially doubt the professor from Berkley based solely on the "blueness" of his geographical location. At the time, I was unclear about his attitude because for some reason I hadn't come across his more recent report: safe html version I wrongly suspected that he might have been affected by the attitudes of fellow faculty members in other areas of academia traditionally much more susceptible to emotion, imagination and propaganda. It never even dawned on me that he might be an example of somebody …
Posted to Democrats: It's the War
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"There has been some concern expressed by others that the work of the team has been hampered because debris was removed from the site and has subsequently been processed for recycling. This is not the case. The team has had full access to the scrap yards and to the site and has been able to obtain numerous samples. At this point there is no indication that having access to each piece of steel from the World Trade Center would make a significant difference to understanding the performance of the structures." I believe that lying to Congress is quite a serious
Posted to Democrats: It's the War
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"Natty is the only one specifying video, but Rabbit has said he can’t be bothered playing anymore. There happens to be Video, but out of contempt for you Rabbit will not even bother posting a link." "It is not hard to understand why these guys have not come forward, in your idea of it." So, does there happen to be video, or does there not? It seems that you could totally destroy my line of reasoning on this issue by putting aside your contempt and posting that link. Won't you reconsider?
Posted to Democrats: It's the War
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This may surprise some of you, seeing as how I am a vampire, a beast and most notably a SHILL, but I abhor torture. Can't stand it. Give me DU, give me 9/11 LIES by the JUNTA to cover up, but don't get me started on torture. It just seems wrong to me. I refuse to defend it. Documented human rights violations 1979-2003 Human rights organizations have documented government approved executions, acts of torture, and rape for decades since Saddam Hussein came to power in 1979 until his fall in 2003. In 2002, a resolution sponsored by the European Union was …
Posted to Democrats: It's the War
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pg. 2 In 1988, the Hussein regime began a campaign of extermination against the Kurdish people living in Northern and Southern Iraq. This is known as the Anfal campaign. The attacks resulted in the death of at least 50,000 (some reports estimate as many as 100,000 people), many of them women and children. A team of Human Rights Watch investigators determined, after analyzing eighteen tons of captured Iraqi documents, testing soil samples and carrying out interviews with more than 350 witnesses, that the attacks on the Kurdish people were characterized by gross violations of human rights, including mass executions and disappearances …
Posted to Democrats: It's the War
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Source for above: Wikipedia
Posted to Democrats: It's the War
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The News We Kept To Ourselves 04/11/03 EASON JORDAN ATLANTA — Over the last dozen years I made 13 trips to Baghdad to lobby the government to keep CNN's Baghdad bureau open and to arrange interviews with Iraqi leaders. Each time I visited, I became more distressed by what I saw and heard — awful things that could not be reported because doing so would have jeopardized the lives of Iraqis, particularly those on our Baghdad staff. For example, in the mid-1990's one of our Iraqi cameramen was abducted. For weeks he was beaten and subjected to electroshock torture in the …
Posted to Democrats: It's the War
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pg. 2 Then there were the events that were not unreported but that nonetheless still haunt me. A 31-year-old Kuwaiti woman, Asrar Qabandi, was captured by Iraqi secret police occupying her country in 1990 for "crimes," one of which included speaking with CNN on the phone. They beat her daily for two months, forcing her father to watch. In January 1991, on the eve of the American-led offensive, they smashed her skull and tore her body apart limb by limb. A plastic bag containing her body parts was left on the doorstep of her family's home. I felt awful having these …
Posted to Democrats: It's the War
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I sense an attempt to change the subject. Could this possibly be because you realize that there is nothing to your fantasy about the 9/11 hijackers being alive? And because your oft repeated nonsense about ALL the steel being carted away to foreign smelts is a total misrepresentation of reality? Things you've railed about from day one and now that I've finally addressed them and identified them for the hoaxs they are, you want to flee to ANOTHER fantasy.....that being that the USA is all about torture. You say Hussein's torture is relevant. How relevant is it really, to you? Do …
Posted to Democrats: It's the War
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Oh but Rabbit. Wasn't it the NY Times that led the charge for months on end about all the "atrocities" and "torture" that were committed by the U.S. in anti-grab? I think you've finally said something that resembles reality: "The New York Times does not pass for a credible source" Actually, in this case, it was only a reprint of the CNN's chief's words, so we'll go with it. I guess we can trust them to copy and paste. It does say quite a lot though, that you would apparently put the credibility of a bunch of hastily created conspiracy kook …
Posted to Democrats: It's the War
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Oh, ouch. Right, lb, I could pretty much say the same thing about you. You're the ignorant one unable to think enough for yourself to decide whether or not your own govt. intentionally murdered thousands of people on 9/11. Or have you made up your mind? Has Rabbit converted you yet? Get out of the street and choose a side. You seem not to hesitate to slam others for disagreeing with your world-view. In my case it's hatred and in your case it's what....enlightened discussion? The double standard is breathtaking. The only "hatred" here is coming from those who would falsely …
Posted to Democrats: It's the War
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Bogus 9/11 truth websites rense.com A site that publishes good material and red herrings. The kindest interpretation is that it desperately needs an editor. Rense is most useful in seeing what the latest nonsense is from the hoaxers trying to disrupt the 9/11 truth movement. The only question is whether they are consciously part of this campaign, or whether their gullibility allows them to be used by the hoaxers. The fact they prominently link to Holocaust Denial stuff is strong evidence they are consciously part of the problem (Rense has numerous promotions on their main page - as of March 2005 …
Posted to Democrats: It's the War
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americanfreepress.net The "American Free Press" is an ultra-right-wing newspaper that also publishes the "Barnes Review," a neo-Nazi holocaust denial publication and website that has praised Hitler as worthy of the Nobel Peace Prize and sells a variety of obnoxious books that pretend the Holocaust did not happen. The so-called AFP has created a number of hoaxes (the "no plane crash in Pennsylvania" claim, possibly the "Building 6 explosion" hoax) and has been promoting others, such as "no plane crash at the Pentagon." AFP also works closely with KKK leader David Duke (by their own admission). ********************************** arcticbeacon.com a website publishing 9/11 …
Posted to Democrats: It's the War
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From Jim Hoffman, webmaster of wtc7.net (widely regarded as the best "physical evidence" website examining 9/11) and 911review.com (not org): For all I know Chris [Bollyn] is a sincere (despite apparently embracing some amazing Holocaust revisionist views) hardworking investigative reporter. If that's true, however, he doesn't seem to apply a very good critical filter to the information he gathers. For example, he appears to be the source of some of the more deeply ingrained errors in the 9/11 skeptics' literature, such as the Building 6 explosion myth and the idea that seismic spikes preceded the collapses. I recently spoke at an …
Posted to Democrats: It's the War
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I think you may be just trying to run up the post count, Rabbit. :~) Why don't you simply give a link to the original thread and let people read the whole thing for themselves? You're leaving out a lot of context, and only confusing things, no doubt to your advantage. You seem to be trying to say that I ignore certain things. But when I do address something, you say "that little detail is not important....why are you focusing on it?.....you haven't proven a thing" (paraphrasing) One thing that people need to know when reading this thread and others I've …
Posted to Democrats: It's the War
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You are just spouting bull off the top of your puny mind, and have proven two months ago that you8 have never even logged on to Prison planet... Actually I did log on to the planet, quite a while ago while trying to find out where you were getting all the rubbish about Barbara Olson being alive. (and yes, I understand that PP is something of a clearing house of information, but someone has to be responsibe for deciding what to link to, and what to to print on the site. I assume that someone is Alex Jones) What came …
Posted to Democrats: It's the War
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It would appear that Steven E. Jones is not going to be submitting his paper to any kind of legitimate scientific or engineering journal, as was assumed, but to some kind of pro-Marxist economic publication. Why would this matter? Simply because it would mean that his paper would not gain the attention of and be subject to peer review by people actually knowledgeable about science and/or engineering. This from the heading of an earlier release of his paper, now scrubbed of the reference: Accepted for publication: Steven E. Jones, (2006). "Why Indeed did the WTC Buildings Collapse?," The Hidden History of …
Posted to Democrats: It's the War
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Very interesting, Rabbit. Please.....continue! I've heard the story about the lemmings and the cliff, but I hadn't heard the one about rabbits hanging themselves. Perhaps it's unique to Australia.
Posted to Democrats: It's the War
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Jay wrote: I am not going through a couple hundred posts of drivel, so I may be beating a dead horse Beating a dead horse is exactly what people who continue to promote this tired myth are doing. I earlier posted this from der Spiegel, which I thought did a pretty good job of putting this and some other myths in their proper perspective, as did your recent reference. (Apologies for the repetition, but the practice seems to be quite in style here just recently.) What these investigative journalists should have done was to spend a little time listening to those …
Posted to Democrats: It's the War
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David, Your musings are entertaining and I appreciate them, but I can't help but suspect them to be a device for avoiding taking a clear stand on the issue of whether or not you believe that the WTC towers were deliberately toppled with the help of explosives courtesy of the U.S. govt. Please explicitly state your belief regarding this controversy, minus the musings. Additionally, do you consider the armor of someone engaging in holocaust revisionism to be shiny?
Posted to Democrats: It's the War
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Thanks for clarifying, David. I admire that you are willing to take a solid stand on the issue; perhaps you did earlier and I didn't catch it or remember it. I think you are totally and completely wrong, as do apparently two editors of "In These Times", but you're certainly entitled to your conclusions. As for your holocaust revisionism question : Where did that question come from? My question about holocaust revisionism stems from the post by Rabbit a little earlier up the page, which questioned whether perhaps that event just wasn't all that, along with your even earlier describing Rabbit …
Posted to Democrats: It's the War
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pg. 2..... As far as put options, there appears to be perfectly reasonable explanations for them. In addition to the below linked information, wouldn't it be logical to assume that certain elements of al Qaeda, perhaps at the highest levels, with definite knowledge of the upcoming attacks might use that knowledge to fill their coffers? Not using their real names, of course, but by way of a complicated laundering operation? Isn't that just a little more sensible than relying on the assumption that elements of the U.S. govt. would sanction the mass murder of their own citizens? Even Martha Stewart dangled …
Posted to Democrats: It's the War
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"There is a big problem with this simple narrative. It is that the Times, along with The Post and other news organizations, ran many alarming stories about Iraq's weapons programs before the election of George W. Bush. A quick search through the Times archives before 2001 produces such headlines as "Iraq Has Network of Outside Help on Arms, Experts Say"(November 1998), "U.S. Says Iraq Aided Production of Chemical Weapons in Sudan"(August 1998), "Iraq Suspected of Secret Germ War Effort" (February 2000), "Signs of Iraqi Arms Buildup Bedevil U.S. Administration" (February 2000), "Flight Tests Show Iraq Has Resumed a Missile Program" (July …
Posted to Lies Judith Miller Told Us
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I think it' far, far more likely that the events of 9/11 were caused by a group of brainwashed, hate-filled Islamic murderers almost simultaneously commandeering four ordinary U.S. airliners with full fuel tanks and sucessfully crashing them into three of their four intended targets. An even more grieveous situation was avoided thanks to the bravery and initiative of a few ordinary Americans who attempted to take control back from the murders intending to crash their plane into the Capitol building. There are many sources of information that address the let us just say "alternative theories" about 9/11. Here is one: http://tinyurl.com/57ofq …
Posted to Reckoning with the God Squad
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Rabbit asked: "How do you know that Natalie?." "Of course the exact details of the battle for United 93 may never be fully known. What we do know is that those aboard the plane mounted a heroic effort to fight back and thwart the hijackers. Information pieced together from phone conversations, the cockpit voice recorder, and radio transmissions from Flight 93 reveal that the passengers and crew had devised a plan to revolt against the hijackers and began that revolt shortly before 10:00 a.m." "Based on information passengers and crew provided to friends and family, it is believed that at least …
Posted to Reckoning with the God Squad
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Rabbit, I've also got a problem with In These Times, though it's more technical than philosophical. It seems that links get mangled in one form or another, especially or maybe only if they take up more than one line in the entry box. This problem, and their insistence on closing spaces between paragraphs is extremely annoying. It use to be, long ago, that links were automatically made clickable on this comment board. I know there is a way to do it by using HTML, but I don't know how. If I really was Natalie from CTG, I probably would. The first …
Posted to Reckoning with the God Squad
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My goodness you're a busy bunny, your paws must be sore. I haven't had time to analyze closely all you presented recently.....getting late here. This is what I wrote before I saw your latest two posts (ending 5:12 AM): I wouldn't necessarily disagree that there might be some discrepencies in the time line. How could there not be? As to the larger issue, I don't see any significant evidence that the passengers didn't stage a revolt. There's several separate accounts (phone calls, recordings) that all point to that conclusion. There were many bitter Bush haters on the 9/11 commission. I don't …
Posted to Reckoning with the God Squad
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Hey, I thought you went to dinner! Silly Rabbit I didn't mean to imply anything about whatever relationship you have with ITT. It just seemed you had some problems with them that were more philosophically based than technical. Wrong word, perhaps. For the record, I have never corresponded with ITT in any way, other than publicly via the comment board. If someone complained about you, it wasn't me. Honestly! G'day, G'nite, or whatever.
Posted to Reckoning with the God Squad
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No bull, Bun. What is your proof, exactly? I believe it's fine to speculate and hypothecize, but to so confidently proclaim things about someone with no real proof, like I'm related to Roger, or I complained to ITT is unfair. If ITT mistakenly told you I contacted them, then I finally do have a reason to contact them for the first time.
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Natty now no timey to whitey, must go workey, but Natty angwee with wabby, wong on so many wevvels. Natty wuv wabby, still yet.
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What, no WB available out west down under? No baby talk condescension intended, just a reference to a certain bunny's arch rival. You earlier wrote: "You have only now, after more than a month of Rabbit referring to you as one of the culprits who attempted to shut Rabbit down. It is a bit stale to now, finally to put up the sort of resistance you should have done at the time." Rabbit, to respond to every twist and turn you present, or in this case invent, I'd be forced to call in sick every other day. I wasn't even sure …
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pg. 2 (sorry, David, this is not brief) You asked me to give evidence for my belief that flight 93 was forced down by the actions of the passengers, and I provided it. Did the moderators TELL you that their policy demands more than one complaint, or are you just assuming it? Or did they simply say something generic like "We've received complaints"? If there WAS more than one complaint, one of the additional didn't come from me, as much as you want to believe it did. "Then, almost immediately you and Roger both jumped back onto the Radioactive Wounds of …
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Good God, David, I'm sorry to break this to you, and if you weren't aware I'm sorry you had to hear it on of all places an Internet comment board, but Elmer is no longer with us. Firearms mishap....which by itself of course would have been harmless, but for the simultaneous and extremely rare failure of the automatic animation immortality generator. (AAIG) Fortunately, the bloodline continues. In keeping with the theory of evolution, a superior son emerges ..... far more focused, far more dedicated and armed with superior weapons enhanced with depleted Stratocaster technology. His anthem hither: http://tinyurl.com/7t6vl Wabbits in Australia …
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Rabbit, I'm preparing to delve into your massive stack of "everything you know is wrong" (hey, Firesign Theatre 1974!) literature, but in the mean time, I don't believe you've attempted to address the Popular Mechanics series I initially posted de-bunking most of the alternative theories about 9/11. Do you have any plans to do so? There seems to be a couple problems with the initial story about Barbara Olson being arrested. Seems there is actually no such thing as a Polish-Austrian border, and the currency she was supposedly carrying hadn't been legal tender since 2002. Any further thoughts or revelations re: …
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I have to give you credit, Rabbit, you did comprehensively address the PM article in response to my inquiry. It's evident to me that the article was viewed as a significant credibility threat by the "what really happened" community, judging from their strenuous rebuttals to it. In attacking the motives and credibility of the publisher and the authors of the PM article, perhaps you've waived your previously assumed right not to have the same directed at such sources as Alex Jones and prisonplanet.com, or Jeff Rense and Rense.com. One complaint put forth seems to be that the PM article is mostly …
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These are a LOT of awfully smart people to try to hide a deliberate implosion operation from: "These experts in tall building design, steel structure behavior, fire protection engineering, blast effects, and structural investigations were impaneled on a building performance assessment team (BPAT). This BPAT was sponsored by a partnership of FEMA, SEI/ASCE, the state of New York, the New York City Department of Design and Construction, and the Structural Engineers Association of New York. The team was also supported by the National Council of Structural Engineers Associations, the National Fire Protection Association, the Society of Fire Protection Engineers, the American …
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Rabbit, when the court cases claiming deliberate demolition are heard and the US Govt is found guilty, I presume you and the plaintaiffs will consider yourself vindicated and your charges validated. Would it be similar to the vindication and validation these people felt? http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1051121852966
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1. Each WTC building collapse occurred at virtually free-fall speed (approximately 10 seconds or less). I'd be interested in some professional documentation of the metholody used to actually measure the speed of collapse, (for example, wouldn't video analysis would have to include the horizontal distance from the camera to the building, the vertical angle up from horizontal, and confirmation that the video is in real time) and an explanation of exactly how one can even ascertain when the event ended, given the massive clouds of dust and debris. Why is that after presumably hours and hours of study by scores of …
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>1: No Natalie, although such confirmation is available and Rabbit shall find it for you. You only have to measure the time it takes for the building to start collapsing to the time it takes to hit ht ground. The distance is known.None of those other funny things you mention matter. The reason I mention these funny things is because from the videos I've seen of the collapse, it would be very hard to impossible to say exactly when the building "hit the ground". So I assumed people were measuring the time it took part of the upper section to travel …
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>3.Virtually all the concrete (an estimated 100,000 tons in each tower) on every floor was pulverized into a very fine dust, a phenomenon that requires enormous energy and could not be caused by gravity alone ("…workers can’t even find concrete. ‘It’s all dust,’ [the official] said"). Apparently, Rabbit, nobody has done any tests to find out exactly how the type of lightweight unreinforced concrete used in the WTC floor panels would react when subjected to the type of force and pressure that would have present during the collapse. (assuming no explosives) Or at least you aren't aware of any, or presumably …
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Your tests are interesting, Rabbit, but wouldn't one want to try harder to duplicate the conditions and the structure in the tower, on a smaller scale of course? Obviously the steel in the tower had much more weight on it than simply "its own". The relatively thin steel trusses were connected at each end by clips, not clamped between a vise. Why not try to duplicate the type of attachment at the ends instead of using a totally different method? Doesn't sound very scientific to me.
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Lots of interesting info, Rabbit. I will investigate it when I have time, maybe this weekend. I especially liked the last link. Did you make another mistake in posting that one? :-) Your implosion theory made the big time today. Someone of your same mind called in to the second most listened to radio talk show in America and presented the theory. His reception wasn't exactly warm, though. Something like: "Get off my phone ya big dope!!" It's a start.
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Thanks, whit, I was especially impressed by the link labeled: "Why are we not allowed to question the Holocaust" You might try using tinyurl to cut down on the lengths of long links, which are usually messed up by the message board for some reason. The taishan link needed to have the space between the fours closed and one of the fours eliminated to work. ITT, if you read this, could you please reinstitute making links clickable for us html dummies?
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Does Prof. Astaneh-Asl personally subscribe to the "deliberate implosion theory"? It appears to me that he is simply cited as being troubled by the remains of the WTC being disposed of too quickly, although I wouldn't be surprised if a professor from Berkley would attempt to exonerate the terrorists. Are there any polls by legitimate polling organizations that have asked the specific question or similar: Do you believe that the WTC collapsed because of a terrorist attack, or because of explosives planted by our own government? Unless you can cite such polls, (and I'm sorry they can't be foreign polls and …
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Gosh, Rabbit, it looks like this guy (Hilton) is guilty of promoting some of same strawman arguments you were so critical of Popular Mechanics for highlighting and then debunking. Seems as though your more level-headed conspiracy theorist rejects his approach: http://tinyurl.com/86ltu BTW, his "lawsuit" was rejected by the district court and subsequently by the Bush hating Ninth Circus, as I'm sure you're aware. The white supremacists were even taking up his cause, although some were skeptical. And I thought they were all such loyal Bush supporters. Ahh....the things you learn on the Internet. http://tinyurl.com/8gfcb
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>“Why was metallic debris found 8 miles from the crash site of the plane that went down in Penn Secondary Debris Field)? They said it went straight down and left a small hole in the ground,” wondered Haupt. “If they found metallic debris from the plane 8 miles away it was either shot down or a bomb exploded in the plane." Again, from Popular Mechanics. I assume this isn't one of the strawman arguments you were referring to, which makes my previous point that much of what PM addressed indeed was current conspiracy theory: Roving Engine CLAIM: One of Flight 93's …
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Go to tinyurl.com, David, to shorten those links. I think the problem arises when the link is longer than the width of the entry box. It occurs to me that the Iraqis, even after all they've been through, are more positive about their future than are liberals in America, Europe, and Canada. http://tinyurl.com/8a9ap
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Rabbit, I've got somewhat of a concession and somewhat of an apology to make to you. I don't have time right now, but will continue ASAP. I can do the marketing thing too, see? ;-)
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Rabbit, After further analysis, I must concede that there is a compelling case to be made that the explanation put forth in official reports for the complete cause of the crash of flight 93 is incomplete, and that the whole truth may even have been purposefully kept secret. I was unaware of the complete debris field story. After learning fully of it thanks to your explanation / links, in addition to other sources, I feel I must apologize for jumping to my conclusion regarding Popular Mechanics and the engine story. Although they may have addressed and debunked one peripheral "conspiracy" claim, …
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As for Iraq, I'm disappointed at all the unrelenting negativity. Since the overthrow, the Iraqis have consistently expressed great hope for their future, usually in the neighborhood of 70% thinking their lives will be much better in 5 years. I'm sure if you took a poll at moveon.org or democraticunderground, you'd be lucky to get seven. Talk to me in five years, maybe longer, about Iraq. It took America much longer than that to iron out all its disagreements and settle on a constitution. Transforming from a brutal dictatorship to a society where the average citizen has a little power of …
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Now we've got ANOTHER theologian who couldn't be more at odds with the first in his theories about who the enemy is. Having seen both in action, I wouldn't conclude that David Ray Griffin is any LESS a "fundamentalist bully" than Pat Robertson, if we're allowed to broaden the definition a bit: "Having rigid adherence to principles and being intolerant of other views". One man irresponsibly urges assassination of a mildly murderous foreign leader, knowing that his remarks will be exploited by a hostile media to the thug's advantage. The other must be at least AS irresponsible in accusing his OWN …
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I'm not sure exactly what all the controversy is about the 30 foot columns. The towers were assembled from pretty much that length section, some more some less, and those same sections were found in the rubble pile. Here is an old movie showing how the towers were assembled. I'm afraid I don't understand what the mystery is supposed to be. http://tinyurl.com/8jw9t My political compass results put me just below the center intersection, whatever that might mean. I'm closer to Ghandi than Thatcher, so I suppose that's a plus in a lot of people's minds. Individual results are one thing, but …
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"Your quote of the Griffin interview is a pretty naive attempt at propaganda. Did you think nobody noticed he merely did not have the information available at the time?" Surely Rabbit knows the name of the structural engineer that Griffin can't seem to muster, putting aside the fact that he just got through writing an entire book on the subject. What is that name, Rabbit? Can you help Griffin out?
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"Engineers, enough for you, doubting Nat?" This is an example of YOUR illness....the inability to properly interpret information. Bill Manning as far as I can find does not suspect that the WTC was intentionally demolished. He is concerned, and perhaps rightly so, that more investigation of the evidence wasn't done to determine exactly how the buildings collapsed. He is concerned about other buildings that may have similar construction and not being able to find out which ones they are. He is wary of the type of fireproofing they used in the WTC. He is suspicious that information is being withheld, not …
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"Now Natalie starts talking about LSD? What nonsense is this? You now would mention drugs in connection with the names of entirely honest and respected men with no reason or context whatsoever. HOW DARE YOU." This is how.... http://www.serendipity.li/pm_bio.html "Who wrote a book Natalie? Rabbit has not and he has at no stage written about Griffin’s work or sources. Griffin has written books but what has that to do with anything?" Umm....we're talking about Griffin's recent book: "The New Pearl Harbor". I'm surprised you don't have it. I'm surprised you didn't know to what I was referring. If you want to …
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O.K., Rabbit, tell me more about witnesses. But when you say I've ignored everything you say, I don't think that is accurate. I've taken you to task on several of the points you yourself have brought up. Speed of collapse, concrete to dust, why columns wouldn't be left standing, etc. But when I press you on something, you say things like "why are you obsessed with this small point. It's unimportant in the whole context" (paraphrasing) I would be happy to learn about the witnesses. I would be happy to address them. I have not been ignoring the issue, It's just …
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I don't agree with your analysis, beautiful referee, and I must register a "challenge" to your call. In a debate between Griffin and Berlet, Griffin could not cite the name of any bona-fide structural engineer that agreed with his contention that the towers were brought down by explosives, even after having recently written an entire book on this and related subjects. I asked Rabbit if he knew of any, could he help Griffin out? Rabbit apparently thought he had found one: "Yes Natalie, try and debunk this source. (article selectively quoting Manning) Engineers, enough for you, doubting Nat?" The way I …
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Now come on, Lume, you're imagining what you think Rabbit was intending by his post. He said no such thing as "I challenge you to debunk the fact that this fire engineer's complaints support Griffin's theory." He simply challenged me to debunk Manning. (I think) After reading his article IN CONTEXT, I realized I had no quarrel with Manning, only with the implication left by Rabbit that this particular engineer endorsed the implosion theory. Whether Rabbit intended that or not, I thought it important, given the context of the discussion and the lack of clarity by Rabbit and the article he …
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"Your opinion and welcome to it. That and $4.65 will get you a viente mocha frappaccino at Starbucks. Treat yourself, you deserve it." No, not opinion, FACT, or as close as we can come to it from the testimony provided: "THE SUBSEQUENT CONTENTS FIRES ATTACKING THE QUESTIONABLY FIREPROOFED LIGHTWEIGHT TRUSSES AND LOAD-BEARING COLUMNS DIRECTLY CAUSED THE COLLAPSES" .....Bill Manning....Professional Engineer. It think it's fairly safe to say that Bill Manning and every other genuine engineering professional that has contributed to the WTC post-mortem does not suspect or have any reason to suspect that the buildings were deliberately demolished. Until I learn …
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O.K., Sir Wordsmith, I thought you might latch onto that rather selective quote. You'll notice however, that I reproduced the entire quote just a couple or so posts back. That's certainly a far more accurate picture of Manning's true mindset than was given in Rabbit's original article. You misunderstand if you think I was attempting to quote Manning out of context in an attempt to turn his opinion into fact. All I'm trying to say is that it is a FACT that Manning's theory, and yes I know, theory, what else do we have?, is that the buildings collapsed due to …
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Thanks for adding that dimension about the Sneeches, David. It looks like the correct spelling may be Sneetch, although both spellings are used. I don't remember for sure if they were actually on a beach, but I do remember the feelings the story invoked, even way back then. It's true that right as well as left took the test; I did, and I know that Jay did. But I would charachterize our attitude about it as reluctant and skeptical. It seems to me that being categorized is something that "progressives" hate, even more than most people do, so I was surprised …
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Liz wrote: Hmm, I checked out that erichufschmid.net link you provided a couple of posts above, Rabbit - and I must say I was a bit over-boggled by this one! Don’t know who he is but he sounds like a Neo-Nazi… for some reason, some people who hate Bush are - you’d think they’d be the best of pals! Your confusion is not without justification.
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Neither of these people mentioned Griffin........................ Natalie...............................if you are still around. You're the one who mentioned Griffin, Rabbit, first. I only addressed him per your accusations that I ignore what you present. I'm amused that you apparently now wish to wash your hands of him. Am I reading you wrong on this? These people may not have mentioned Griffin, but did Griffin mention them? I would guess that he probably has. Not that it matters, of course. "Even if Griffin was on LSD when he wrote his book, it still wouldn't change anything." I think you may be on to something …
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Check that. Actually, it looks like Reynolds mentions Griffin a lot. Like nine times in this article alone. "I was never attacked by the press, but, on the other hand, the administration didn't let me out that much." .... Morgan Reynolds
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Please tell me you just didn't realize what you were looking at. Please tell me you're not trusting information posted on this website. This is strangely reminiscent of citing studies by scientists in Saddam controlled Iraq claiming a rash of birth defects was due to what else.....Depleted Uranium.
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Picky little electrons, aren't they? Depleted Uranium.
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Let's get back to Kevin Ryan, shall we? Rabbit, do you have anything more on this guy other than what he has contributed with his now omnipresent email? He seems to have gone underground since he was fired. Why does he not exercise his strength of conviction and speak out? There's money to be made! Could it be that he was just a low-level flunky that worked for a mere division of UL and had no real connection with the investigation UL proper was contributing to and simply decided to take advantage of the fact that he was technically an employee …
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You are so right, Rabbit. I am a beast. Check out my author number for confirmation. Gosh, I thought you'd be in a little better mood, what with getting a new computer and all. Being an equal opportunity consumer, I patronize the good liberals at Apple, finding that their operating system provides very near total immunity from such worrisome things as viruses, worms, spyware, adware and outside hacking, even from "In These Times". But that's another topic. You realize, of course, that if your case actually gets to trial, all the WITNESSES you've been talking about are going to have to …
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"Natalie the actual Facts Rabbit is not going to play your personal attack Shill games anymore" MY personal attack shill game? MY game? If you're suggesting that I'm somehow not allowed to critique what you put forth, or question the credibility, credentials and reliability of your sources, I would wonder what makes it taboo for me and perfectly fine for you. Is there some kind of ....hypocricy exemption.....I'm unaware of? The game of "SHILL" is your invention. You introduced the term, and insist on keeping it alive through thick and thin. Please tell me what the difference is between …
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I don't want to attack Bill Rodriguez. It appears that he was quite heroic on 9/11 and continues to try to help other victims of the attack. I can't explain why all the reporters and/or editors chose to clip out his comments about explosions, if he did indeed testify to that effect from day one as he maintains currently. It does appear that he has gained a new following, a new set of admirers to take the place of likely a fading spotlight that shone simply on his heroism. His lawyer, Philip Berg, actually filed a lawsuit demanding that Supreme Court …
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"How does that help your cause Nat?" I'm actually trying to help your cause, Rabbit. If you insist on holding on to your demolition fantasy, at least refine your argument so you might have a chance of trying to convince someone beyond the choir. That is what 911review is saying to Philip Berg and William Rodriguez. 911review and oilempire (they link to each other) appear to at least be half-way reasonable in what they buy into. (I think they're still in outer-space somewhere) I would suggest putting a little more faith in them, and less in the sources that they disparage. …
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"But either you take the site seriously or you don’t natty." No, I don't take the site seriously, nor do I anyone who believes the WTC was brought down courtesy of the American govt. I'm only trying to steer you in a slightly more reasonable direction. I'm trying to make you realize that much of what you've read and repeated here is unsubstantiated and/or fabricated. "The other site you mention is however listed by 911 review as DISINFO. Your bread and butter Natty." Please be more clear. Which site exactly does 911review.com refer to as disinfo? What is my bread and …
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I don't know who Chris Bollyn is, apparently nobody does, but it would appear that even little ol' me has better investigative skills than he. It didn't take more than three or four seconds to learn that the Madrid building fire actually strengthened the WTC collapse theory put forth by the nerds. "Because of the height of the structure and the extent of the blaze, firefighters could only mount a containment operation and ensure that neighbouring buildings were protected. The fire eventually finished 26 hours later, leaving a complete burn-out above the fifth floor. The steel-glass façade was completely destroyed, exposing …
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"A light structural element can heat up quickly and the resulting expansion can produce an outward bulging away from the slab edge which can create internal flues if it happens before the facade glazing breaks." source "The Windsor Tower was completely gutted by the fire on 12 February 2005. A large portion of the floor slabs above the 17th Floor progressively collapsed during the fire when the unprotected steel perimeter columns on the upper levels buckled and collapsed (see Figure 1). It was believed that the massive transfer structure at the 17th Floor level resisted further collapse of the building." …
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Hey, not bad, Rabby. You finally found someone with some actual credentials in a field that is somewhat applicable to the subject at hand. And as predicted, you were eager to crow about him, even after repeatedly poo-pooing other professionals. Of course I understand it would be unfair for me to suspect that this guy has been "gotten to", or has other motivations. (because of the exemption.) I must point out though that like Griffin, who he referenced along with the other usual suspects, he provides very little original thinking and relies on the same old repeated and nearly identical propaganda …
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"AND Natty, all the denials by you is not going to change the fact that this story alone, may be the death knell of the whole LIE." You are indeed correct, Rabbit, that in the case of the article describing a Boeing 767 landing safely in Cleveland, Greg Szymanski via Rense.com is referencing a story from a small but presumably legitimate news organization. However, what is not apparent to the casual reader, and that would appear to include you, is that the story retold by Szymanski has evolved, and has been molded into something that conveniently meets the requirements of reviving …
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"Natty my source, linked directly to the original artcile so it is a bit hollow to suggest it was anything but 100% accurate. Rabbit looks at your quotes and see’s nothging which was not said in the original article, have no idea what you are getting at." No Rabbit, the problem is that Szymanski said MORE than did the original article. He added the phrase "in the vicinity", and made the leap of logic that a mistake in flight numbers points to the most daring deception operation in the history of the world. And no, he didn't link directly to the …
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David, I love your sense of humor and the way your mind works. I don't think I'm anywhere near your political wave-length, but never-the-less you have a knack for seeing what most don't even consider. Haven't been to Canada since my honeymoon some 23 years ago, but I remember it to be an enchanting place. (Victoria, BC, at least.) Rabbit, You might be glad to hear that Steven Jones was featured on a cable network here. I have no idea what kind of television you have access to, but it was a show on MSNBC. Tucker Carlson, the Situation. Tucker is …
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I'm no scientist, certainly, but I have read several articles about DU that seem pretty authoritative and conclusive. Basically, DU is not a significant danger chemically (heavy metal poisoning) and even less radioactively. It makes a lot of sense for scare mongers to latch on to the uranium and ignore depleted. Uranium = highly radioactive in most people's minds. Similarly, hysterics over irradiated foods are fueled by the notion that they are being somehow "radioactivated", or turned into some kind of dangerous mutation. Not to say that we shouldn't always be on the lookout for health threats, but consider the fact …
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"Bob Nichols is a contributing writer for LiberalSlant, Democratic Underground, OnlineJournal, AmericaHeldHostage, and other online dot com publications." Give me a break. I'm trying to keep an open mind on this DU stuff, but can we please exclude OBVIOUSLY biased emotional sources like this? And then somebody doesn't even understand that the reference to DDT is meant to illustrate how scare-science can trump real science, not to compare its radiation footprint. I could refer you to reams of evidence about a serious relationship developing between Hussein and bin Laden. I might as well be claiming the moon is made of cheese. …
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Mr. Salsman, Again, I'm no scientist, certainly. But I was checking out one of the references you gave to support your DU contentions: http://www.irak.be/ned/archief/Depleted Uranium_bestanden/DEPLETED URANIUM-2- INCIDENCE.htm This is apparently, or maybe obviously a report from a researcher in Basrah, Iraq in 1999. Why wouldn't we assume his work to be suspect in light of the fact that it would assumedly have been subject to review by his benevolent over-lord, Saddam Hussein? Would he possibly have been trying to reach a pre-conceived (ordered) result? And even if the data is accurate, are you sure about there not being any other influences …
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mauk2 is obviously Roger in drag. Note the similar writing style. ;-) mmmmm......depleted uranium mmmmm......anti-matter
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Let me chime in here one last time. (ok,maybe not the last time) Obviously, both sides on this debate have agendas and basic political and ideological beliefs that are furthered or frustrated by the truth on DU. I am new to this subject, although I have heard brief mention of it elsewhere in the past. I guess we have Cindy Sheehan and her "nuclear war" references to thank for bringing it more out in the open. Oh yes, and Mr. Lindorff, of course. I'm on the vacillating side of the anywhere from 40% to 75% of the people, depending on the …
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GhostRabbit, what ARE you smoking? Gotta get ME some of that. Do you ship internationally? The link you provided just above: http://www.royalsoc.ac.uk/landing.asp?id=1243 Within that link is this link: http://www.royalsociety.org/document.asp?id=1402 Which contains thus: The Part I report draws the following conclusions: Except in extreme circumstances any extra risks of developing fatal cancers as a result of radiation from internal exposure to DU arising from battlefield conditions are likely to be so small that they would not be detectable above the general risk of dying from cancer over a normal lifetime. The greatest exposures will apply only to a very small fraction of …
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James, These are all fascinating sounding studies, but I have a feeling the reason they weren't relevant to the Royal Society is because they didn't apply to real world situations. Obviously, you can make mice sick if you feed 'em enough of anything. The unfounded fears that have been unleashed upon the public due to those squeaky little devils is legendary. The Royal Society seems to be focused on what the dangers of DU are on soldiers and on people that subsequently encounter the battlefield. Not mice. Court cases are not in any way relevant to scientific reality. Just ask Nicole …
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You're somewhat less abusive now, Rabbit, and that's appreciated. You still don't seem to have gotten over your paranoia, although there are signs it's on the wane. You sure like to demand things from people a lot, don't you. Eadora does too. Hmmm....could it be? Rabbit and Eadora the same person? Seems plausible enough. ;-) Damn the science, I deem it so!! Let me ask you some questions, and I'll attempt to answer yours when I have more time. Why would all these scientists at the Royal Society, whatever that is, put their reputations and credibility on the line by making …
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Mr. Salsman, From your link, which was: http://ije.oupjournals.org/cgi/content/full/33/1/74 Looking at the free abstract, and reading the conclusion: " We found no evidence for a link between paternal deployment to the Gulf war and increased risk of stillbirth, chromosomal malformations, or congenital syndromes. Associations were found between fathers' service in the Gulf war and increased risk of miscarriage and less well-defined malformations, but these findings need to be interpreted with caution as such outcomes are susceptible to recall bias. The finding of a possible relationship with renal anomalies requires further investigation. There was no evidence of an association between risk of miscarriage …
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I'm not sure you understand my point, Rabbit. You cited the Royal Society link first. I pointed out that their conclusions on DU tend to support the camp that says it's not really much of a concern. I was flabbergasted that you posted the link, thus my question about shipping internationally. BTW, your first two links on that post were expired or incorrect, unless perhaps it was me. Mr. Salsman then posted a link to a study that I assume he thought did not support the Royal Society's conclusions. I pointed out that they pretty much did. Are the United Nations …
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Rabbit, You neglected to answer my very specific question which was: Has the U.S. broken international law by using DU weapons? When I asked the question, it didn't make much sense to me that it would have, but I honestly didn't know for sure. Now my initial suspicions are confirmed even by an anti-DU source: Depleted Uranium - Status in international humanitarian law: "No international treaty currently bans the production or use of DU weapons. Indeed, DU weapons are not chemical or biological weapons, therefore they cannot be considered to be illegal under the 1972 Biological Weapons Convention and the 1996 …
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Corrections to above URLs that ended up with spaces or some such error. Mindfully: http://tinyurl.com/88w6g Sandia: http://tinyurl.com/85ark Gulflink: http://tinyurl.com/c8954
Posted to Radioactive Wounds of War
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"The international outcry over claims that the use of depleted uranium during the Kosovo intervention caused leukemia in 24 European members of the peacekeeping force is unfounded. Numerous studies of depleted uranium--the byproduct of the process of extracting fuel for nuclear reactors and weapons from uranium--have not found any link between its use by the military and any form of cancer or other health problems. The controversy that erupted after the soldiers were found to have leukemia is threatening to undermine the alliance structure in Europe. It is imperative that the facts about depleted uranium are not lost in the debate." …
Posted to Radioactive Wounds of War
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Good point, shaz. I've advocated for the same. If there is indeed a substantial and overriding danger from the use of DU, I want to know about it. I sincerely want the topic to make it out into the glaring media spotlight. ----------- From what I've read though, I sincerely at this point think that the danger from DU is being deliberately exaggerated and overblown for propaganda purposes. But hey, I use to think that energy from the sun caused the Earth to warm up. I know now that was crazy talk. --------- "A World Health Organization medical team visited Basra …
Posted to Radioactive Wounds of War
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Rabbit, I have to congratulate you on finally tracking me down. But please don't tell Roger. You see, we were married about fifteen years ago in a ceremony so secret that even Roger wasn't invited. I treasure the perpetual newness of our relationship, and I know that actually meeting him (and he may insist on it if he knew) would put that most wonderful of feelings in danger of dissipating.
Posted to Radioactive Wounds of War
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“I’m not an explosives or crash site expert, but I am highly knowledgeable in causes and effects related to nuclear radiation contamination. What happened at the Pentagon is highly suspicious, leading me to believe a missile with a depleted uranium warhead may have been used,” said radiation expert Leuren Moret in a telephone conversation this week from her Berkeley, CA home. Moret, who has spent a life time working in the nuclear field, first as a staff scientist at the Livermore Nuclear Weapons Laboratory in California, is now a member of The Radiation and Public Health Project (RPHP), a privately funded …
Posted to Radioactive Wounds of War
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So Rabbit, Do YOU believe a missile hit the pentagon instead of a plane? That's a simple enough question...Yes or no?
Posted to Radioactive Wounds of War
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Now that's gotta be the shortest post on record by the Rabbit from Oz. It's extremely illuminating to learn that the two "scientists" so often cited as "experts" on the horrors of depleted uranium believe or would even suspect that a missile hit the pentagon instead of that planeload of people, none of whom we've heard from since. It's also quite interesting to learn of Moret's bitter partisan feelings: “Even if there was depleted uranium used, do you think the likes of Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld would really care? These are bottom feeders that 20 or 30 years ago wouldn’t have …
Posted to Radioactive Wounds of War
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Filtering through my shame-on-me scolding, I think I've ascertained thus: You, Rabbit, apparently really do believe I am related or married to Roger, or possibly am him. You believe I'm someone other than an ordinary average citizen that has some kind of outside direction to defend the use of DU for the military and don't have the brains and common sense to recognize a ginned up propaganda campaign when I see it. You have summarily dismissed mountains of studies by dozens of agencies and institutions all concluding basically the same thing....DU is not as harmless as Jello, but is far from …
Posted to Radioactive Wounds of War
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Being from Australia, Rabbit should be able to identify with the proceedings from this "Kangaroo Court". Early in the Roo-court's declarations, we are suddenly aware that we have arrived in central downtown Kookville: Judgement In The People Vs George Walker Bush Tuesday, 16 March 2004, 10:21 am Press Release: International Criminal Tribunal For Afghanistan 6. 11th September 2001 attacks in the United States had no connection with Afghanistan. The prosecution has questioned the factual and legal basis of this defense , submitting at page 17 of its Indictment that - "….. it is not etablished that the 9.11 incidents were the …
Posted to Radioactive Wounds of War
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Rabbit, your "Pale Rider" alias is all too transparent. Your tactic of adopting a polar-opposite measured, understandable debating technique does not hide your identity. It's just the trick I would use. I know from experience, you see!! If readers will page up a few posts, they will see a reference posted by Rabbit that will make clear the association: "Pale One..................^^........................" Nice try, Pale Rabbit. You forgot you left this little nugget of evidence, didn't you? You're not the only sleuth on this board!! But shame on me -- as I have previously stated, the name, identity or number of personalities …
Posted to Radioactive Wounds of War
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I don't know if you are simply careless, Pale Rider, or if you are stealthily on my side. Pasting directly from your above post, caps emphasis added: "Much of the existing guidance and training satisfied neither requirement. For example, the DU Hazard Awareness Training Support Package-Tier I (for the general soldier audience), fielded in 1997, directed personnel to run a radiac meter over casualties to detect any DU contamination before providing treatment. The training video in this package IMPLIED that DU radiation is sufficiently dangerous to warrant delaying life-saving medical attention, WHEN THIS IS MOST EMPHATICALLY NOT THE CASE. Similarly, the …
Posted to Radioactive Wounds of War
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Actually Pale Rabbit, according to information YOU provided in your previous post, one would have to caress and stroke with their BARE hands a long....hard.....cylindrical DU penetrator for quite some time before she/he would come close to exceeding safe radiation levels. "Contact with bare skin presents another external radiation exposure path. DU produces a dose rate of about 0.2 rem/hour, largely from beta radiation, when in contact with bare skin.[75] A person would exceed the current occupational dose limit for skin (50 rem in a year) only if unshielded DU (e.g., bare penetrators) directly contacted the skin for more than 250 …
Posted to Radioactive Wounds of War
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Don't ya just hate it Pale Rabbit when someone, in an apparent attempt to distract or diffuse, accuses you of being something or someone you aren't? Especially when they have no credible proof thereof and their logic for arriving at such accusations is well.....kooky? Yeah, I hate it when that happens. How about you, KVK? Do YOU believe a missile hit the pentagon instead of a planeload of people? Do you share this belief with the person cited as an authority in Lindorf's article, and with another woman "scientist" at the top of the anti-DU speakers list?
Posted to Radioactive Wounds of War
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So much anger, so little science. So much written with so few facts. In the aftermath of the use of ammunition containing Depleted Uranium (DU) during the Gulf War in 1991 and in the Balkans in the nineties, a controversy emerged in the public opinion on the alleged effects of DU on man's health and on the environment. Official reports, mainly of military origin, are strongly questioned in the public opinion, being often interpreted as a justification or part of a cover-up. This controversy reached its peak towards the end of the year 2000, when DU was held responsible for the …
Posted to Radioactive Wounds of War
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You know, Rabbit, I was thinking about asking you about that issue of the WTC being brought down by explosives. Thanks for taking the initiative and offering up your thoughts on your own. Very, very instructive and illuminating. I believe I've addressed most of your questions multiple times. In response to your self-created fantasy about me being a Helbig, I've repeatedly tried, seriously and humorously, to get you to stop making a fool of yourself by pursuing it. Actually, I'm quite flattered that you would entertain the possibility that the gal from CTG is moi; she seems to be quite accomplished. …
Posted to Radioactive Wounds of War
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I agree, KVK, that realities are often different from how they appear in our window to the world...the media. Skepticism is healthy and the fruits of thinking outside the box are often abundant. One "reality", which was recently presented to us by the media, was quite distorted, turns out. It makes sense however why the media would choose to distort it, and there is pictorial evidence that proves the obviously willful distortion. http://tinyurl.com/djxh5 When CBS presented documents purporting to show that George W. Bush shirked his responsibilities in the TANG, the vast majority of viewers accepted them as genuine. But a …
Posted to Radioactive Wounds of War
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Thanks for your kind offer, Rabbit, but I think I'll reserve the option to post more here in the future as it relates to DU, or other issues that might serve to inform about the motivations, qualifications and judgment of those who might disagree with me about the degree of danger posed by the use of DU in proportion to the benefits thereof. I take issue with your characterization of me and others that advocate for the use of DU as people who somehow don't care about the health and lives of our soldiers, or civilians close to a battle situation. …
Posted to Radioactive Wounds of War
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Thanks, Canadian Dave, for alerting us to the coming end of this discussion on DU and it's dangers or lack thereof. I left the discussion for dead long ago, but obviously I was premature. I direct my final comments toward anyone, who, after reading the article "Radioactive Wounds of War", might be skeptical of the assertions made therein. I was, and after evaluating genuine peer-reviewed studies that generally concluded that there was no substantial health hazard posed by DU (unless it hits you, of course) and stacking them up against the largely emotion-based, often uncredentialed, usually anti-American military power, and sometimes …
Posted to Radioactive Wounds of War
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Wait now. I thought I was Col Helbig's wife. No wait...daughter. I'm so confused now. Just a shill? How boring! I think pale_rider is Rabbit's shill. Or vice-versa? "Read the thread!" Actually, pale, I remember some information you yourself strangely posted that concluded that it would indeed be quite safe to shove some DU in your pockets, or wherever else. (use your imagination) “Contact with bare skin presents another external radiation exposure path. DU produces a dose rate of about 0.2 rem/hour, largely from beta radiation, when in contact with bare skin. A person would exceed the current occupational dose limit …
Posted to Radioactive Wounds of War
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tap tap.. Is this mic back on? Testing? mmmmm.......depleted uranium
Posted to Radioactive Wounds of War
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Mr Hayden, You have no idea just how many Americans disagree with your prophet of doom assessment. Sure, support for the war is slipping among the general public. Who can blame them given the shallow negative news coverage. But the people that are closest to the conflict, the soldiers, are re-enlisting at unbelievably high rates. Even first time enlistment is now exceeding goals. How disheartening it must be for them to read your sob story written from the comfort of your luxury living room. You and Jane have apparently learned very little since Vietnam. You have not changed. Back then you …
Posted to Exiting Iraq
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Yeah, Liberal, you make a good point about right-wing pundits. Most of them don't really know the true picture, either. The difference in my mind is that they are at least being supportive of a foreign policy that was debated and voted on. There were national elections, 2002 and 2004, the results of which were to increase the power of the party most forcefully advocating the policy. I have zero patience for people who demonstrate and protest against their government's official foreign policy when troops are in harm's way. I deplore any of it that went on during Kosovo by right-wing …
Posted to Exiting Iraq
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John Francis Lee, Upon examining your meticulous HTML enabled dissection of my post, I find that you left one aspect unaddressed. Do YOU want your country to succeed in Iraq? This is a simple question that deserves a simple yes or no answer. Are you able to answer it in such a manner?
Posted to Exiting Iraq
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Liberal, I certainly don't disparage democracy by advocating that people in this country speak with one voice on foreign policy, especially when it comes to its troops being in harm's way. I may be discouraging "democracy" in this particular case, if that's the label you want to give it, but to me it's just simple common sense and decency which I'm sure the Democrats would expect if roles were reversed. I guess I would be technically entitled to say just about anything about anybody anywhere, but the better question is would it be appropriate, and is it constructive and helpful. If …
Posted to Exiting Iraq
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John Francis, you started out pretty well in your attempt to answer my question with a simple yes or no. You said "yes". But then you went on to describe a policy that almost surely would lead to failure. If I was to ask you if you wanted crime reduced in your neighborhood, you would answer yes. But then, if your logic was consistent, you would prescribe reducing the police presence to zero to achieve your goal. Having read the short and simplistic "plan" of Stan Gof that you embrace, I can only assume that you are not part of the …
Posted to Exiting Iraq
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Yeah, whattheheck, I think I'm done here. I give up. I simply tried to appeal to people, on grounds of common courtesy and practicality, to consider the impact their brand of "dissent" has on the troops moral, and the ability of our nation to defend and maybe even heaven forbid project itself -- even in the event that a situation develops they DO consider worthy of military action. Liberals have absolutely no problem suppressing and squelching speech and ideas they oppose. They favor muzzling political speech close to election time, outlawing what THEY decide to be "politically incorrect" references, and shouting …
Posted to Exiting Iraq
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Master detective "Rabbitvoz" apparently thinks he/she's uncovered yet another piece in the puzzle of his/her giant conspiracy theory, but instead has carelessly cast doubt on his/her own credibility and analytical skills. You're quite wrong, Rabbit, on me and Roger Ramjet or whatever being the same person. This leads me to believe you might ALSO be wrong on your other theories about his aliases and MAYBE EVEN on depleted uranium. *gasp* That's not fair, I guess. You might be right on DU, I certainly don't claim to know the whole truth on that, but I do know for certain that you are …
Posted to Exiting Iraq
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Rabbit, I know you think you're funny and cute and clever, and if you really are clever, you must know what a fool you're making out of yourself, and how you're damaging your own credibility. Anyone that has to resort to accusing people of being two or three people instead of one, (they're ganging up on me, it ain't fair) and pretend to perform keyboard analysis to try to prove some shadowy conspiracy is pretty transparently unable to argue his case effectively on the merits. I've already admitted I don't have the expertise, and frankly not the interest anymore to argue …
Posted to Exiting Iraq
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Excellent reference, WTH, although I'm suspicious you're actually Roger or maybe even Hitchens himself. It wouldn't surprise me if that baggy-eyed "liberal" would stoop so low as to promote his book under the guise of another. ;-) Don't expect these closed-minded "liberals" to take that arduous journey from your link to their address box for fear of that disturbing and depressing specter know as the light of day. But of course anyone who dares question the validity of their claims about the degree of danger posed by depleted uranium is simply and conveniently a "username-shifting government shill". I think perhaps what's …
Posted to Exiting Iraq
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Fabulous article by Hitchens, WTH. Thanks, although I had a little trouble with the link. I urge everyone here to read it and consider again the wisdom of adopting the Tom Hayden view, or worse. This is the kind of thinking that use to define the Democratic party. Hitchens is a true "liberal". If only the Whitehouse could communicate this effectively. Here's a link to the printer-friendly version: http://tinyurl.com/9tq9h
Posted to Exiting Iraq
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I think we should all take the few minutes it might require to contribute whatever we can to whatever relief/charity organization we deem most efficient and trustworthy in order to help alleviate the suffering due to Katrina. And then, take another few minutes to urge others in your sphere or cyber-sphere to do the same. Dollars are what are needed. Little else helps, unless of course you are in a position to volunteer.
Posted to Exiting Iraq
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Since Jessica's in the mood to apologize for inappropriate pictures posted at "In These Times", I wonder if she might consider extending one in this case: http://www.inthesetimes.com/comments.php?id=614_0_1_0_C Perhaps she was not personally involved with this article, but regardless I would be interested to know if she is as concerned with the posting of a libelous picture as she is with the posting of what some (not me) might consider to be a politically incorrect one. For proper context, she might want to read the comments by me and others about the article and picture.
Posted to Here Comes the Neighborhood
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"The Voting Rights Act was passed in 1965 during the administration of President Lyndon B. Johnson after a decade of civil rights activism revealed the deep roots of opposition to black enfranchisement." True, but why in an article with obvious partisan overtones would the author leave out the salient fact that those most vehemently opposing black enfranchisement were virtually all Democrats? "The 15th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution guaranteed African-Americans the right to vote, but that guarantee was often stymied by government officials committed to white supremacy." By government officials, could the author possibly mean segregationist Democrat senators? Another relevant fact …
Posted to Keep the Voting Rights Act Alive
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There's something about people that go around accusing others of lying. They are often trying to distract attention away from the fact that they themselves are guilty of it. It's no different, really, than a four year old pointing to his little sister and screaming "She did it!!", when in fact little sister did not, but doubt has been successfully raised in Mommy's mind. Mommy then asks questions to ascertain the truth. Little Lefty, did Republican Everett Dirksen play perhaps the most pivotal and crucial role in the fight to break the filibuster by southern Democrats against civil rights legislation in …
Posted to Keep the Voting Rights Act Alive
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Jane, what in the world makes you think that anyone has tried to take the right to vote away from anyone that is legally entitled to do so? Please, be specific. If indeed anything like that had really happened to supposedly so many people, one would presume there would be some kind of proof available. Is this on par with the belief in space aliens? God? Is this simply a matter of faith? The simple truth is that far from being the victim of vote fraud and voter intimidation, Democrats throughout history have been the instigators of such. From burning crosses …
Posted to Keep the Voting Rights Act Alive
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Sorry for the delayed response, but I was attending a regional Klan meeting. I actually got to meet Karl Rove!! He's even cuter in white sheets, if you can believe it. Lefty wrote and I respond: "Thank you for pointing out the ancient history of the Democratic party. Now lets take a look a the current history of the republican party." If you consider 40 years ago to be ancient history, I'm starting to feel mighty old. Well I guess we're gonna look at "current history", which up until now I thought was physically impossible. "Let’s see, didn’t the republican racist, …
Posted to Keep the Voting Rights Act Alive
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pg. 2.... "Isn’t it the GOP that came up with the “Southern Strategy” to convert southern democrats to the republican party by labeling the democrats as the “black party?” Well, aren't you the black party? I thought you wanted to be. Funny how you were unable to become it on your own and required the help of Republicans. I wonder if Karl Rove could have been behind the whole thing. What was he doing in 1964? Are you telling me that the Democrats today wouldn't be more than happy to have their "racist" Reagan Democrat voters back? It's just politics. It …
Posted to Keep the Voting Rights Act Alive
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Sorry Jane, I was meaning to respond to your post because it actually intrigued me. The kind of universal electoral process you describe sounds wonderful at first blush and I might even consider voting for such a system. But believe me, if proposed here, it would not be applauded by our friends in the Democratic party. It would surely be opposed by some Republicans as well, but on balance you have to understand one thing about American politics. The Democratic party opposes any measure that would seek to identify and qualify voters. Something as simple and seemingly sensible as requiring picture …
Posted to Keep the Voting Rights Act Alive
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Communists don't support the Democratic party, said Liberal. http://www.cpusa.org/article/articleview/586/1/27/ If I'm wrong about this being the leading American communist website or at least one of them, I guess I'm just not that up on communists in America. The followers and fans of this pathetic ideology -- who declined to put up a candidate -- voted for whom do you suggest? George W. Bush? Democrats tough on crime? You really want me to list all the ways Democrats and their voters have enabled crime and criminals? With a 4000 word limit? For now let's just say that the attendance of Republicans at …
Posted to Keep the Voting Rights Act Alive
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"Such cynicism exasperates some Democrats. Last year, Joe Andrew, who served as Bill Clinton's chairman of the Democratic National Committee, blasted conspiracy theories that electronic voting machines, or DREs, would be used to steal votes and said "most liberals are just plain old-fashioned nuts" on the subject. He lamented that prominent Democrats "are rallying behind the anti-DRE bandwagon in a big election year because they think that this movement is good for Democrats." "Nor has the truth stretching stopped with the election. Barbara Arnwine of The Lawyers' Committee for Civil Rights claims photo ID laws "could disenfranchise 10% of the electorate." …
Posted to Keep the Voting Rights Act Alive
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Jane, what country are you from? You seem to be reluctant to say, maybe not, but I feel it's unfair for you to criticize our voting system from the comfort of national anonymity. Please tell me, and I will work on yet another response to your questions, although I thought I had addressed them. I think you and others misunderstand my reasoning for responding to charges of racism in kind with similar charges that may indeed be equally specious.
Posted to Keep the Voting Rights Act Alive
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You know, I was really just kind of half joking when I responded to the charge that KKKers support Republicans by saying that communists and criminals support Democrats. The vehement protest against the validity of these charges actually heartens me, and I'm beginning to think maybe I was wrong to level them. Perhaps my perception is based on the misinterpretation of selected media excerpts and does not reflect reality. I offer my apologies.
Posted to Keep the Voting Rights Act Alive
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Jane, Thanks for your information. Australia has a very interesting voting system and I was totally ignorant of it. (except for the parts you related, of course) I have some comments on your system and how it compares to ours, but I don't have time right now. Please bear with me and check back in a day or so. Thanks.
Posted to Keep the Voting Rights Act Alive
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Jane, I have always understood that you are unconcerned about internal partisan arguments in the U.S. and are more concerned that some of us may not have been afforded a proper opportunity to vote, and that the process of marking and counting that vote may have been compromised by parties with conflicting interest. I don't think your concern is based in much reality, which is why I've felt free to argue other matters. But I responded to your question directly and unconditionally I thought, which I assume was meant to gauge my level of agreement with you on the importance of …
Posted to Keep the Voting Rights Act Alive
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pg. 2 I think you've perhaps fallen victim to the seductive rhetoric coming from those who lost elections and are looking for someone or some computer to blame. The article I quoted from and linked to earlier illustrates how the cooler heads in the Democratic party understand there was no "disenfranchisement of blacks", or "Diebold plots" for them to blame their losses on. They understand that it is precisely this type of whining by their left fringe that contributed to their losses. They understand that they need to appeal to voters with positive ideas of their own, and quit relying on …
Posted to Keep the Voting Rights Act Alive
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Thank you, Margaret, for your "covert" admission that your statement regarding Plame's whereabouts and status when "outed" was well....imagined I guess. I say that because you offer no explanation, no apology, no accounting for why you would make such a concise and authoritative statement that is so obviously false: "When she was outed, she was “hot”, that is, actively undercover in hostile territory." You seem to believe that anyone identifying a covert CIA agent is committing a felony or is guilty of "treason", or a "high crime". Surely you know from recent news coverage that there are very specific conditions that …
Posted to Downing Street: A Dead-End In American Media
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URL correction: http://tinyurl.com/aq2j3
Posted to Downing Street: A Dead-End In American Media
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Please, Liberal, don't fall for this fallacy that the media is conservative. You can believe it if you want, but any time you base your opinions and arguments on a false premise such as this, you can't help but go terribly wrong down the line. Reporters and their editors (former reporters) are almost universally liberal. They are even more liberal than the average Democrat. Poll after Poll and study after study confirm this. Walter Cronkite admits it. Not only their ideology, but how that affects their treatment and selection of the news and who is allowed access to their forums. The …
Posted to Downing Street: A Dead-End In American Media
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Pretty lame explanation, Margaret. You made a very specific unambiguous statement, for which I gave you ample time to support and explain. I think you've been "outed" in your attempt to present misleading information in order to advance your political agenda. Just like Mr. Wilson! I don't dispute that Rove may be guilty of some crime. However I do dispute your blanket statements on treason, high crimes, and felonies, which I don't think are supported by the law.
Posted to Downing Street: A Dead-End In American Media
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I'm so gratified to see what I hope is genuine concern on the part of the left, represented here by Susie, Lefty, Liberal and Richard times two about the value and importance of human intelligence. I'm afraid however, that it might be merely political. I'd be interested to hear an explanation as to how one squares their fuming furious outrage about the supposed outing of a supposed covert agent with their allegiance to a party that has been hardly a supporter of the CIA in general, and largely responsible for the systematic de-valuing of human intelligence over the last several decades. …
Posted to Downing Street: A Dead-End In American Media
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Liberal wrote: Regardless of what liberals think about the CIA, we NEVER advocated disclosing ...... Something tells me I'll eventually find out otherwise, but I'll take your word for it for now. Besides this key distinction, and ignoring that the accuracy of your accusation is yet to be proven, you are noticeably lacking in your defense of the left when it comes to the CIA. What does the left think of the CIA? I don't think they want me to itemize it. At least not now while they're in the midst of their new found love affair with the CIA and …
Posted to Downing Street: A Dead-End In American Media
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Liberal wrote: >Wipe the crap from your eyes Natalie, you’ll see a lot better. Crap from my eyes? What are you, twelve? :-) >Natalie, Judith Miller did not report about Plame AT ALL, so she did not do any disclosing. Rove didn't write in the paper about Plame either, so are you saying that he couldn't have done any disclosing either? Logic check. I'm really not sure about Judith Miller's politics, but I do know that the New York Times is far from a conservative organizaton, and they seem to be standing with her in her stonewalling stance. If she had …
Posted to Downing Street: A Dead-End In American Media
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whattheheck wrote: "Unlike a totalitarian system, ours does not operate with the consistancy of an individual. We have made what now seem to be stupid policy decisions in the past (backing Saddam — the Cold War made strange bedfellows), but a Balance of Power approach is not effective against the current threat. We need to <
> and develop a rational, effective defense of our society." In other words, constructive respectful criticism when it comes to troops in harm's way is helpful and needed, as practiced in this post by whattheheck. However, the brand of … Posted to Downing Street: A Dead-End In American Media
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Margaret (Susie) wrote: "If you’re so concerned about squaring the treatment of the CIA, why aren’t you outraged at the disassembling policy currently underway by Porter Goss, Bush’s appointee, who now has no real power at all? It has been given to Negroponte, that purveyor of Central American death squads." No, the real purveyors of death in Central America were the communists. Do you pine for their return? I hadn't heard about Porter Goss's vanishing influence. Please provide links for proof. I'm becoming ever more wary about your proclamations since you translated the statement: "When she was outed, she was “hot”, …
Posted to Downing Street: A Dead-End In American Media
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Lefty wrote: "Lying, the conservative stock in trade. Natalie, I don’t remember when I’ve read such a density of lies before. Soon you’ll qualify to write for Fox News." You're very good at copying and pasting, lefty, but I see precious little substantive rebuttal. It would seem that this a habit of yours. Speaking of lying and false premises, care to enlighten us once again on your theory about conservatives and chickenhawks?
Posted to Downing Street: A Dead-End In American Media
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Liberal wrote: "Yes, wipe the crap from your eyes, Natalie. It is a way of saying open them. Clearly such humor fell on deaf ears." Humor? As in funny? Funnny strange, or funny Ha Ha? (clue....I shouldn't have to ask) "All I can say is personally I never held positive views at the CIA for its past election rigging and acts of terrorism against left-leaning governments." I see you pine as well for the return of communism, marxism and fascism. So sorry for your loss. "Once again, since the Clinton/Lewinsky affair was such small potatoes compared to Iran/Contra, I doubt Clinton …
Posted to Downing Street: A Dead-End In American Media
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Lefty wrote: "As for the axioms about conservatives that I occasionally repeat on this forum, you’ll admit, if you are honest, that they are MY axioms." So you're saying that the false notions you put forth about conservatives are all of your own invention? But, but..... I could've sworn your list of conservative "chickenhawks" looked mighty familiar upon cruising those lefty blogs. Maybe they got it from you? I could've sworn I remember you quoting Elbert Hubbard to the effect that conservative equals chickenhawk. Is that you, Elbert? You are the beneficiary of the doubt. Honestly. Editor: a person employed by …
Posted to Downing Street: A Dead-End In American Media
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I don't see anything particularly untrue or off-base in what Redstate said in his original post. (He doesn't help himself with the second). I think the left is mistaken in thinking that conservative media is just some tool financed by wealthy right wing money moguls. This is fundamentally false and continuing to believe it undermines their ability to counter. Rush started out two decades ago in a media world hostile to his views and through his own stubbornness and talent survived the bombardment coming from the likes of folks posting here. He built his current success on talent, creativity, and having …
Posted to Too Little, Too Late
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Wipe away all the superlative rhetoric in this article and you're left with nothing more than the fact that liberals simply can't allow ANYBODY that dares to agree with nearly half the population in opposing abortion to get anywhere near a lifetime appointment. To even agree with three quarters of the population and support common sense measures like parental notification is taboo to these ideological bigots. This combined with the fact that someone is open and unapologetic about their religious views reliably brings out the long knives of the left. I see that Wade Henderson, who recently wrote an article for …
Posted to Make Judicious Appointments
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Wow, lawyers giving awards to other lawyers. I'm impressed. NOT! Lawyers are a necessity in today's sue-happy society, but I wonder who had a primary hand in bringing that reality about. Personally I like the advice given by Shakespear. Money addicted trial lawyers and their settlement mills are a major factor in the high cost of health care and everything else for that matter. Not to mention that fewer and fewer people are going into medical specialties. http://www.washingtontimes.com/functions/print.php?StoryID=20040718-091121-1392r
Posted to Grasping at Straw Men
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Trying to defend Moore against "unfair" attacks is the ultimate "pot calling the kettle black". Moore's distortions and outright lies are legendary and Isikoff is generally regarded as a fair and respectable journalist. I've seen him take on the right as well as the left. As for the criticisms of Isikoff, honest disagreements and different interpretations of a complicated situation in South America hardly compare with the childish reckless manipulation by Moore. BTW, Nicaragua is a democracy today. Would it be if Reagan and the CIA hadn't intervened, cocaine or not? Of course not. The left normally stands up tall against …
Posted to Framing Michael Moore
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There's a new pot in the kitchen, and he's calling the other kettles who don't agree with his limited world-view stupid and naive. He seems to think that democracy just ain't worth fighting for; far better to let the communists and dictators have their way than risk any deaths. All those needlessly killed at Normandy fighting for that over-rated thing called freedom. He doesn't seem to understand that atrocities were already happening in Germany, Japan, Russia, Nicaragua and Iraq independent of the U.S. and helping to defeat these evil regimes means less death and much more freedom and security in the …
Posted to Framing Michael Moore
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Here's an idea for a new "documentary", Ammonia D. Feel free to submit any more ideas you may have. John Kerry. A child of privilege, nothing but the best from day one. He decides to go to Vietnam not because he particularly cares about the cause, but because he's looking for material with which to pad his resume. I'm sure we could find lots of testimony and stills that would make him look real smug, self serving and uppity. They may not tell the whole story and there might be other things that would contradict the portrayal, but what we put …
Posted to Framing Michael Moore
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Ammonia D, your article also includes this: "But the report found no sign that the White House had pressured analysts to reach pre-set conclusions." "The committee did not find any evidence that administration officials attempted to coerce, influence or pressure analysts to change their judgments related to Iraq's weapons of mass destruction capabilities," it said." How does this square with your assertion that "Bush Lied"? To be intellectually honest and I know that's asking alot, you're gonna have to call John Kerry and John Edwards liars as well. Not to mention Michael Moore. "Saddam Hussein's regime represents a grave threat to …
Posted to Framing Michael Moore
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Read your article about Blix again, A.D. Right there near the top it also says this: But he also said that the former Iraqi regime was unable to account for chemical or biological weapons it claimed to have destroyed and that weapons inspectors were unable to clear up discrepancies before leaving Baghdad in advance of the invasion. "This does not necessarily mean that such items could not exist. They might. There remain a long list of items unaccounted for," Blix said. "But it is not justified to jump to the conclusion that something exists just because it was unaccounted for." In …
Posted to Framing Michael Moore
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continued....... “Saddam was not a threat”, you say. Read this. It explains why we had to act when we did and why WMD stockpiles are so not the point. http://www.nationalreview.com/script/printpage.asp?ref=/comment/rivkin_casey200407130904.asp “The bipartisan committee reported no connection” Exactly wrong. The report concludes that: Al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden "explored possible cooperation with Iraq during his time in Sudan." "A senior Iraqi intelligence officer reportedly made three visits to Sudan, finally meeting bin Laden in 1994." "Contacts between Iraq and al-Qaeda also occurred after bin Laden had returned to Afghanistan." Chairman Thomas Kean has confirmed: "There were contacts between Iraq and al-Qaeda, a …
Posted to Framing Michael Moore
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Ms. Cox, your shallow analysis on the press and it's bias ignores the eight years of hateful venom directed at Reagan during his presidency and focuses on his funeral, when a little respect and deference is entirely appropriate. Also the late realization that Reagan was genuinely loved by a majority of their audience would tend to dampen the liberal press's desire to express their true contempt. He didn't do much for democracy? American democracy was just fine. Reagan did more than any one man to help bring it to other parts of the world. What I can't understand is why people …
Posted to All Hail the Liberal Media
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My history books apparently have references different from yours. Mine talk about how standing up to an illegal strike sent a powerful message to enemies abroad that this wasn't a president to be messed with. Mine talk about deregulation and tax cuts that removed a choke hold on the American economy. Mine talk about inflation being reduced from 14% to 4%, about interest rates being reduced from 19% to 8%. Strangely, my books describe Reaganomics not as a bad thing for the poor and minorities, but a good thing. You might recognize yourself in this article: http://michaelnovak.net/Module/Article/ArticleView.aspx?id=91 My books talk about …
Posted to All Hail the Liberal Media
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ITT, you have provided a friendly forum for an organization that is one of the greatest obstacles to peace in the Arab world. In so doing, you have also mislead many Americans as to the true nature of Al-Jazeera. I urge you to provide some balance and another perspective to your readers. Here's an example: June 21, 2004 -- IMAGINE if, on D-Day, the Nazis had been allowed to place camera teams on Omaha Beach ó with our suffering soldiers forbidden to interfere. What if, on top of that, the Germans had invented American atrocities against French civilians ó and our …
Posted to Inside Al-Jazeera
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Irina, your response illustrates my point beautifully. You have such a narrow-minded view of the world and such an apparent lack of historical knowledge that I am led to believe you watch al-Jazeera 24-7. You talk of "atrocities" committed by the U.S. as if there was just no reaon at all for them to be necessary. Do you have any knowledge of the MILLIONS that have been killed by their own governments? Do you not know enough history to know that at least 150,000,000 people have been intentionally murdered by their own totalitarian governments in the 20th century alone? Then we …
Posted to Inside Al-Jazeera
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