The ITT List
Tuesday Dec 13, 2005 8:12 am
Knocking Out “The War on Xmas”
In a one-two-three knock out punch, Air America's Sam Seder took down Bob Knight, the director of the Culture and Family Institute - who is continuing to hype this false "war on Christmas." As Sam points out during the interview - this is not about faith, its about fundraising. To me, this fear mongering by the religious right is actually undermining the very important Xmas spirit of love and support for all man kind. One other point - the whole assertion that we're "cleansing" the Christian "faith" from the public square is ironic - because isn't the public square supposed to be, if not cleansed of all faiths, at least open to all so no one group is put in the position to be oppressed or is given the power to dominate everyone else? Why is Christianity so special? I'm not knocking Christians or the Christian faith - I am knocking this false sense of superiority.
Here's a transcript and a link to video, but is my own personal highlight from this round.
Here's a transcript and a link to video, but is my own personal highlight from this round.
SEDER: Listen, as far as the war on Christmas goes, I feel like we should be waging a war on Christmas. I mean, I believe that Christmas, it's almost proven that Christmas has nuclear weapons, can be an imminent threat to this country, that they have operative ties with terrorists and I believe that we should sacrifice thousands of American lives in pursuit of this war on Christmas. And hundreds of billions of dollars of taxpayer money.
(CNN HOST) PHILLIPS: Is it a war on Christmas, a war Christians, a war on over-political correctness or just a lot of people with way too much time on their hands?
SEDER: I would say probably, if I was to be serious about it, too much time on their hands, but I'd like to get back to the operational ties between Santa Claus and al Qaeda.
PHILLIPS: I don't think that exists. Bob? Help me out here.
SEDER: We have intelligence, we have intelligence.
PHILLIPS: You have intel. Where exactly does your intel come from?
SEDER: Well, we have tortured an elf and it's actually how we got the same information from Al Libbi. It's exactly the same way the Bush administration got this info about the operational ties between al Qaeda and Saddam.
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Merry Christmas and Happy New Year
A Politically Correct Christmas Poem
Twas the night before Christmas and Santa’s a wreck…
How to live in a world that’s politically correct?
His workers no longer would answer to “Elves”,
“Vertically Challenged” they were calling themselves.
And labor conditions at the North Pole,
were alleged by the union, to stifle the soul.
Four reindeer had vanished without much propriety,
released to the wilds, by the Humane Society.
And equal employment had made it quite clear,
that Santa had better not use just reindeer.
So Dancer and Donner, Comet and Cupid,
were replaced with 4 pigs, and you know that looked stupid!
The runners had been removed from his beautiful sleigh,
because the ruts were deemed dangerous by the EPA,
And millions of people were calling the Cops,
when they heard sled noises upon their roof tops.
Second-hand smoke from his pipe, had his workers quite frightened,
and his fur trimmed red suit was called “unenlightened”.
To show you the strangeness of today’s ebbs and flows,
Rudolf was suing over unauthorized use of his nose.
He went to Geraldo, in front of the Nation,
demanding millions in over-due workers compensation.
So…half of the reindeer were gone, and his wife
who suddenly said she’d had enough of this life,
joined a self help group, packed and left in a whiz,
demanding from now on that her title was Ms.
And as for gifts…why, he’d never had the notion
that making a choice could cause such commotion.
Nothing of leather, nothing of fur…
Which meant nothing for him or nothing for her.
Nothing to aim, Nothing to shoot,
Nothing that clamored or made lots of noise.
Nothing for just girls and nothing for just boys.
Nothing that claimed to be gender specific,
Nothing that’s warlike or non-pacifistic.
No candy or sweets…they were bad for the tooth.
Nothing that seemed to embellish upon the truth.
And fairy tales…while not yet forbidden,
were like Ken and Barbie, better off hidden,
for they raised the hackles of those psychological,
who claimed the only good gift was one ecological.
No baseball, no football…someone might get hurt,
besides - playing sports exposed kids to dirt.
Dolls were said to be sexist and should be passe.
and Nintendo would rot your entire brain away.
So Santa just stood there, disheveled and perplexed,
he just couldn’t figure out what to do next?
He tried to be merry he tried to be gay,
but you must have to admit he was having a very bad day.
His sack was quite empty, it was flat on the ground,
nothing fully acceptable was anywhere to be found.
Something special was needed, a gift that he might,
give to us all, without angering the left or the right.
A gift that would satisfy - with no indecision,
each group of people in every religion.
Every race, every hue,
everyone, everywhere…even you!
So here is that gift, it’s price beyond worth…
“MAY YOU AND YOUR LOVED ONES, ENJOY PEACE ON EARTH”
And Joseph went up from Galilee to Bethlehem with Mary, his espoused wife, who was great with child. And she brought forth a son and wrapped him in swaddling clothes and laid him in a manger because there was no room for them in the inn. And the angel of the Lord spoke to the shepherds and said, “I bring you tidings of great joy. Unto you is born a Savior, which is Christ the Lord.” (Luke 2:4-11)
A Politically Correct Christmas Story
from
omegafaith.org
“There’s a problem with the angel,” said a Pharisee who happened to be strolling by the stable. As he explained to Joseph, angels are widely regarded as religious symbols, and the stable was on public property where such symbols were not allowed to land or even hover.
“Besides,” said a Sadducee who was with him, “there are no such things as angels, and telling a child that they’re real will only hinder the child’s emotional development.”
“And I have to tell you,” said the Pharisee, “this whole thing looks very much like a Nativity scene. That’s a no-no, too.”
Joseph had a bright idea. “What if I put a couple of reindeer over there near the ox and ass?” he said, eager to avoid sectarian strife.
“That would definitely help,” said the Pharisee, who knew as well as anyone that whenever a savior appeared, judges usually liked to be on the safe side and surround it with deer or woodland creatures of some sort. “Just to clinch it, throw in a candy cane and a couple of elves and snowmen, too,” he said. “No court can resist that.”
Mary asked, “What does my son’s birth have to do with snowmen?”
“Snowpersons,” cried a young woman, changing the subject before it veered dangerously toward religion.
Off to the side of the crowd, a Philistine was painting the Nativity scene. Mary complained that she and Joseph looked too tattered and worn in the picture. “Artistic license,” he said. “I’ve got to show the plight of the haggard homeless in a greedy, uncaring society in winter,” he quipped.
“We’re not haggard or homeless. The inn was just full,” said Mary.
“Whatever,” said the painter.
Two women began to argue fiercely. One said she objected to Jesus’ birth “because it privileged motherhood.” The other scoffed at virgin births, but said that if they encouraged more attention to diversity in family forms and the rights of single mothers, well, then, she was all for them.
“I’m not a single mother,” Mary started to say, but she was cut off by a third woman who insisted that swaddling clothes are a form of child abuse, since they restrict the natural movement of babies.
With the arrival of ten child advocates, all trained to spot infant abuse and manger rash, Mary and Joseph were pushed to the edge of the crowd, where arguments were breaking out over how many reindeer (or what mix of reindeer and seasonal sprites) had to be installed to compensate for the infant’s unfortunate religious character.
An older man bustled up, bowling over two merchants, who had been busy debating whether an elf is the same as a fairy and whether the elf/fairy should be shaking hands with Jesus in the crib or merely standing to the side, jumping around like a sports mascot.
“I’d hold off on the reindeer,” the man said, explaining that the use of asses and oxen as picturesque backdrops for Nativity scenes carries the subliminal message of human dominance. He passed out two leaflets, one denouncing manger births as invasions of animal space, the other arguing that stables are “penned environments” where animals are incarcerated against their will. He had no opinion about elves or candy canes.
Signs declaring “Free the Bethlehem 2” began to appear, referring to the obviously exploited ass and ox. Someone said the halo on Jesus’ head was elitist.
Mary was exasperated. “And what about you, old mother?” she said sharply to an elderly woman. “Are you here to attack the shepherds as prison guards for excluded species, maybe to complain that singing in Latin identifies us with our Roman oppressors, or just to say that I should have skipped patriarchal religiosity and joined some dumb new-age goddess religion?”
“None of the above,” said the woman, “I just wanted to tell you that the Magi are here.” Sure enough, the three wise men rode up.
The crowd gasped, “They’re all male!” And “Not very multicultural!”
“Balthasar here is black,” said one of the Magi.
“Yes, but how many of you are gay or disabled?” someone shouted. A committee was quickly formed to find an impoverished lesbian wise-person among the halt and lame of Bethlehem.
A calm voice said, “Be of good cheer, Mary, you have done well and your son will change the world.”
At last, a sane person, Mary thought. She turned to see a radiant and confident female face.
The woman spoke again: “There is one thing, though. Religious holidays are important, but can’t we learn to celebrate them in ways that unite, not divide? For instance, instead of all this business about ‘Gloria in excelsis Deo,’ why not just ‘Season’s Greetings’?”
Mary said, “You mean my son has entered human history to deliver the message, ‘Hello, it’s winter’?”
“That’s harsh, Mary,” said the woman. “Remember, your son could make it big in midwinter festivals, if he doesn’t push the religion thing too far. Centuries from now, in nations yet unborn, people will give each other pricey gifts and have big office parties on his birthday. That’s not chopped liver.”
“Let me get back to you,” Mary said.
In the meantime the Magi had been asked by others how much their gifts had cost, and when told the price several protested and said the money could have been better spent on the poor and homeless. “Besides,” said one, “what can a baby do with gold, frankincense, and myrrh?”
“You don’t understand,” said one of the Magi, “we brought these gifts to honor and worship this child who has been born King of the Jews.”
Whereupon the child advocates protested that adults should not pre-determine a child’s future. “It should be left up to the child to decide for himself what he wants to be.”
One of the shepherds called out from the back of the crowd: “The prophet Micah wrote that out of Bethlehem would come a Ruler to shepherd God’s people”
“That’s just a myth,” said the head of the Prophet’s Seminar who had just arrived with his committee. “We scholars have determined that the prophet’s actually said very little of what they are credited with saying, and everything they reportedly said about a Messiah was added years later by other writers.”
“How did you determine that?” asked Joseph.
The most intelligent member of the Prophet’s Seminar was chosen as spokesperson and replied, “We cast lots.”
After much talking, the various advocates agreed to meet again at a later date in a place more suitable for them and continue their discussions about the child’s welfare. Gradually they drifted out of the stable and left the shepherds and the Magi alone with Joseph and Mary and the child.
Mary took Joseph’s hand and said, “Husband, tell me again what the angel Gabriel said to you about our son.
Squeezing her hand, Joseph answered, “He said that we should call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.”
Mary looked down at her son and sighed deeply, and then said to one in particular, “I wonder if they will let him?”
I personally think it would be wonderful if all Christians sat out the materialistic side of Christmas (secular people too, for that matter). Most of us have more than we need, and the ads designed to make us desire even more are completely antithetical to the “real” spirit of Christmas. Better that we give to the poor, help feed the hungry, rather than fattening ourselves even more. . .
Less is more.
You pounded that nail, Wolf.
Less is more and to give is to gain.
I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive. (Acts 20:35)
The funny part was that Knight either was indifferent or didn’t realize that he was debating a man of Jewish Descent, even after stating such and being asked about Channukah.
He had to bring up Nazi’s, didn’t he?
The Nazi references were clearly indicative of desperation on Knight’s part. He felt boxed in; he hadn’t come prepared to deal with 1.) satire, 2.)common sense or 3.)reality. He had obviously assumed he was going to be debated on the bogus “War on Christmas” as if it were a real issue, not something trumped up by heretic snake-handlers and Faux News that deserved zero critical consideration. His intellectual fraudulence was thus revealed for all to see…
I wish I could’ve seen this interview!
I think it would benefit everyone if they remembered that Christmas is based on Pagan rituals with the birth of Christ determined by the Pope in 350 bc as being coincidentally the same day as the feast of the Son of Isis. Since Christmas originally did not evolve from Christian values, it is a good argument for who really “owns” Christmas. Those who are getting worked up over this “issue” really need to get over themselves and get a life!
Let’s see what Webster’s Dictionary says :
Main Entry: Christ?mas
Pronunciation: ‘kris-m&s
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: Middle English Christemasse, from Old English Cristes m?sse, literally, Christ’s mass
1 : a Christian feast on December 25 or among some Eastern Orthodox on January 7 that commemorates the birth of Christ and is usually observed as a legal holiday
Otter - I agree that pagan rituals were assimilated and co-opted by the Pope in the creation of Christmas.
I have pagan friends who celebrate Solstice. I don’t tell them to find a different name for it because it offends my definition of Christmas.
Just as I would not tell Jews to call Hanukkah something politically correct either.
Christmas is Christmas. Whether you believe in Santa or Christ, both or neither.
Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah, and a Super Solstice to all.
.. and just to be clear ..
Solstice does not offend my definition of Christmas, it is included in it.My pagan friends are not offended by Christmas either.
Nobody should be offended by Christmas. It’s become a huge part of this culture and it brings joy and creates generosity (which should be apparent all year) to many, many people.
I like Happy Holidays since it is Hanukkah, Kwanza, and the New Year this season. And Boxing Day for those in Canada! Bodhi Day’s was on the 8th. What’s the big deal?
Happy Bodhi Day
O Lord how I hate Christmas.
How I hate the music, that forced smile, the hollow greeting as I trudge through the mall, spending my week’s salary on people just because they talk to me.
How I hate the ‘Keep Christ in Christmas’ bumper sticker mentality of churches with neon signs that blink to the beat of ‘O Come All Ye Faithful’.
How I hate the ‘very special’ sitcoms, the family-based mini-movies, air space wasted on that crappy yuletide Schwarzeneggar ‘comedy’. How I hate being stuck watching maudlin schmaltz like Tom Hanks’ Polar Express on a transcontinental flight. “Believe!” Thanks, Tom. Believe in what?
Politically correct Christmas? Really? Why is the bar I go to having pictures taken with Heineken models dressed as elves?
Nobody cares. Let’s call this twisted holiday off, until you nimrods realize it’s an old pagan sun-worshipping festival (celebrated with orgies in Roman times). A Mithraic cult-party. A Druidian bacchanalia. A Laplandic drugfest. The Puritans knew that much, and kept Xmas where it belonged in this country until 1870. On the fringes.
But you’ll never do that, will you, Jesusians? Get to sing, and pray in front of your neighbors, and then get that watch you’ve been too cheap to buy yourselves.
Bah, humbug. Keep ‘X’ in Xmas!
P.S. Hanukkah sucks too.
P.P.S. Soft spot for Kwanzaa…but only because I like saying it. Kwahn-zah, Kooaaahn-zahhh…
... and a Brilliant Boxing Day too
You are a funny guy Rocco !!
Great posts.
David in Canada - knock it off.
Don’t be one of the fools who is taking pride in making fun of the non-existent “politically correct” people trying to “destroy” Christmas. You are wasting your time.
Your “politically correct” poem is absolute nonsense. There is no “war” on Christmas. The majority of people celebrate the hoilday.
And why is it so offensive if somebody DOESN’T call the holiday Christmas? What is the BIG deal? Besides, those of the Jewish faith are not the ones walking around trying to shove their holiday in the face of others. They don’t need public or government recognition. I wish Christians could be the same way.
And you can’t brush off the fact that Christmas is a stolen holiday - much like Christianity is a stolen religion. Just because a majority may celebrate Christmas and worship God doesn’t give it any credibility.
Maybe those crying “political correctness” are afraid of change - and facts getting in the way of our belief system.
It’s people like YOU who are taking the fun out of ANY holiday.
I’m not required to have religion shoved in my face to celebrate with my family. We can do that on our own.
I don’t want to shop at Wal-Mart and have protesters in my face.
BAH HUMBUG to you David, and all of your ilk. If Christmas is ever destroyed, it will be at the hands of those trying so hard to save it.
“And why is it so offensive if somebody DOESN?T call the holiday Christmas? What is the BIG deal?”
And you can?t brush off the fact that Christmas is a stolen holiday
Wow Sarah.
I never said it was offensive.
Did you read my posts at all?
I clearly stated that ” Solstice does not offend my definition of Christmas, it is included in it.My pagan friends are not offended by Christmas either. “
I agreed with Otter when he said “Christmas is based on Pagan rituals”. I did not brush it off. Here is some more information if you care to enlighten yourself.
Click here for A Christmas Story
It?s people like YOU who are taking the fun out of ANY holiday.
I am having fun.
Sorry to hear that you are not.
Please lighten up a bit Sarah.
What is the big deal?
Sarah ...
Who was I making fun of?
Sorry you didn’t like the poem Sarah. I think it was meant to be nonsense.
I give others respect for their holidays and beliefs (all credibility aside) and I think I stated that pretty clearly too.
I never shoved any religion in your face. I have never protested outside a Wal Mart.
I offered up some poetic nonsense, a story and some interesting points about the alleged War on Xmas for discussion and I thank you for taking part in it.
Sarah - “Christianity is a stolen religion.”
Stolen from who (whom?)? Stolen like physics is “stolen” from natural philosophy? Or is someone missing Christianity and wants it back? :)
Maybe it was stolen from the non-existent “politically correct” people I was allegedly making fun of?
Merry Christmas Wolf
and everyone else too.
Sarah, I would wish you the same but wouldn’t want to offend you anymore than I apparently already have. So ..
Have a mediocre
non-denominational
winter holiday ;)
Not only did Sam Seder not knock out Bob Knight, not only did he never lay a glove on him, he wasn’t fighting in the same ring. Without defending or attacking either position on the “War on Christmas” (for sure, calling it a war is overblown, but pretending there has been no tendency to secularize the public sphere is simply disingenuous), Seder was so impressed with his own cleverness that he couldn’t herar what Knight was saying nor show any respect for those for whom the larger issue (secularization) is a genuine concern. Seder asked,“Who was ever offended by being wished a Merry Christmas?”; but Knight wasn’t claiming anyone was actually offended, only that “Merry Christmas” was disappearing because people were afraid of offending. Whether or not anyone is offended when wished a Merry Christmas (I’m not, and I’m Jewish), in an age when professors lose their jobs because of overly sensitive students, when college newspapers are burned and posters trashed by self-appointed Offensiveness Police, when it makes the national news when some bureaucrat used the word “niggardly” completely appropriately, it is not unreasonable to be afraid someone might in fact be offended.
Seder was great, but then again I’m a sucker for sarcasm. If the world needs anything at all, it’s more dry humor!
Mitch, Happy (belated?) Hanukkah ! or is it Hannukah?
Otter, Happy Holidays, thanks for bringing up Boxing Day for us Canadian and old British Empire folks as a worthy tangent.
Otter, I think you may have spelled humour wrong :)
Actually, David in Canada, Hanukkah (or Chanukah or Hannukah - the spelling is variable) begins on Christmas Day this year, which occurs only rarely. One year it overlapped Thanksgiving; usually it falls between the two, closer to the Solstice.
David, what IS your point, exactly? There IS no “war on Christmas”, except in the deluded brains of the rightards. Now cut it out and stop carrying water for them. The sign on the cage says DON’T FEED THE ANIMALS.
Hello Embarrassed One,
At this point, I think my point would be that you are taking this discussion, and me, a little too seriously. Lighten up and have some fun, you will be a much happier person and less easily embarrassed.
I never said there was a war on Christmas . Read my posts and see that I referred to it as an alleged war. As I previously pointed out, I merely offered up a poem, a story, a dictionary definition and a few humorous comments along the way.
As for carrying water and feeding the animals: The water or food I carry is my own but I will happily share it with you or anyone else.
I suppose that you would rather throw stones and poke them with sticks??
Fun With the Sun, or It Takes a Mensch to Pan Christmas
Pagan Claus - A Look at Christmas Symbols
That last link was really good. I read through it while I ate my dinner.
If I have a point at all it I could not express it as well as these excerpts from Pagan Claus : Christmas Symbols
“With all this pagan background, you’d think that the celebration would be something other than what it is, wouldn’t you? Actually, what we have here is a very good example of taking old legends and mythos and reworking them to fit a new one, and adding the central message of Christmas ..... the birth of the Child of Promise to the world.
You see, symbols mean what your culture has taught you they mean. If when you look at the Cross you think of Jesus of Nazareth and see a symbol of redemption you are interpeting it as a Christian symbol. If you see it as a gallows; as a means of executing criminals against the State, then you are seeing it as an ancient Roman would. There are many other pagan associations with the cross, including the Norse sun-cross and it’s usage as a generalized solar symbol. Should we then interpet the Cross as a pagan symbol? Of course not!
Equally, no one sees the symbols of Christmas detailed above as anything other than either symbols of a commercialized, secular holiday or the birth of the Child. The past pagan associations these symbols had are pretty much dead, and the notion of an Eternal Conspiracy to demonize these symbols is prima facie silly. These are symbols and traditions, deeply engraved in the folk conciousness, that have simply taken on a much deeper meaning.”
.....
“The danger is not in the originally pagan symbols, nor in it’s establishment by the Bishop of Rome, but in the commercialization and secularization of the holy day; we are losing the real meaning of the holiday to an orgy of spending and politically correct saccharine cuteness. The meaning of Christmas is not found in how many presents we can give or get, nor in how much money we can spend on it, nor in how prettily we can decorate our home, but in the Message of the Child.
Christmas (call it Yule if you want to!) is a holiday and holy day that can be kept by Christian and pagan alike, and one that brings joy to the world indeed.”
That’s Classic ... to say “there is no war on Christmas”
To say there is “no war on Christmas” is like saying the media isn’t biased to the left ... or Hollywood isn’t liberal or that cigarettes are really safe for you.
Liberals are just pissed that they have been exposed and people are fighting back.
This is more proof that “Liberalism is a Mental Disorder”
Is it true that writing “Merry Xmas” came into fashion at the same time as writing “X” for “kiss”?
Does that mean we’re really celebrating “Kiss-mas”? Ain’t that cute!
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