The ITT List
Tuesday Jan 25, 2005 9:41 am
And Speaking of Overblown Rhetoric
I received this yesterday:
Project 33: A New Generation Opposes Abortion
Just your average press release announcing a march to protest the anniversary of Roe v. Wade. Make sure you read it to the end:
Project 33: A New Generation Opposes Abortion
Just your average press release announcing a march to protest the anniversary of Roe v. Wade. Make sure you read it to the end:
"45 million members of my generation are gone, not because of suicide or gun violence, but because of abortion," said Andrew Nemy, Teens for Life President. And Andrew is not afraid to point a finger of blame. "If there aren't enough of us spreading this message, its because you killed them."
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Abortion is a very sad thing. At one time, i had hoped it would become rare, but instead it is just a method of birth control for some.
I wonder, if someone wanted to abort a child based on gender selection, why should/would we allow that? Shouldn’t there be **some** restrictions on abortion? My understanding is that most of Europe has a significantly more restrictive system.
Perhaps the most unfortunate problem with abortion is how it was foisted upon the US. Rather than having our elected representatives pass laws governing it, it was forced upon the country by the Supremes, in a rather strangely twisted logical argument (even some supporters have trouble with the “reasoning” they used). It is no wonder that the bitterness remains to this day.
A funny endnote: Jane Roe has publicly recanted her place in this drama and is now staunchly anti-abortion.
overblown rhetoric huh? I thinks its funny in a hypocritical sort of was that the hard left feminist’ scream and cry about the government keeping their laws off of their bodies yet are all for more and more regulation and taxes and government protection of women. I hope America is waking up to the American Holocaust that is abortion and takes a good look at these folks that consider only their rights are cast in stone while they procced to take everyone else’s rights and (tax) money away.
um, ok.
still - it isn’t funny that Jane Roe has “publicly recanted”, it is hypocritical. That she regrets her personal decision is sad, that she would see that others are not offered the decision she had is still worse.
reddog - you don’t seem to understand what rights are, worse you confuse rights and money. Rights are freedoms which we have been guaranteed based upon our constitution and upon the idea that we are all created equal. Money at the other extreme is an unequally distributed commodity and has very little to do with freedoms, and nothing to do with rights. Also the government “keeping laws off their bodies” and “government protection of women” and not contradictory, they are the same.
I respectfully disagree that money can’t buy rights. Maybe it’s that money can buy orotecins for those rights. I point to certain moneyed people get better legal representation than folks who have a Public defender. People with money and power can afford and get away with having armed guards,gated communities, security systems etc. I hope that you don’t think that I am legitimizing this but that is the way it appears to me. Certain folks in this country have more"protections” than others.and often seem to have more rights in some respects.
Hypothetically were are all equal but to quote a famous passage in a famous book ” some are more equal than others”
forgive my poor typing skills I meant money can buy protections for those rights.
I would like to make four separate points:
1. I am curious about the source for the “45 million” statistic. Without a reference point or any attempt at a rational explanation, it sounds random.
2. It is an inherently bad idea to attempt to place legislation between doctors and patients. Medical decisions should be made based on the best possible care options, the ethics of the people involved, and the individual situation.
3. Once someone is faced with an unplanned and unwanted pregnancy, there are no *good* choices. The best choice would have been to prevent the situation.
4. Making abortions illegal will not stop them. It will only ensure that the experience becomes far more dangerous.
I came of age when abortions were illegal. A woman carrying a dead fetus had to wait until her body naturally miscarried. This is much more dangerous than having a planned and scheduled medical procedure. Some abortions occurred even though they were illegal. People just didn’t talk about it much. The priveleged (wealthy) had nice, safe abortions in modern hospitals. The middle class had abortions in hotel rooms. Others had abortions in less sanitary places. Every urban hospital had standard procedures for cleaning up the inevitable mess that an unsanitary or botched abortion leaves. Many doctors felt justified in sterilizing any woman who had an abortion. Consent was not required. Making abortion illegal will drive it out of mainstream medicine. There are no easy answers. I hope none of my beloved nieces and grand-daughters are ever faced with an unplanned pregnancy. Should that happen, I hope they don’t consider an abortion their best or only option. However, I would also hope that if they do have an abortion, it would be as safe as medically possible and allow them to bear healthy children later. That’s what Roe v. Wade allows.
reddog - what money can do for a person is not representative of that person’s rights. Of course people with more money can afford better protection (both legal and physical), but again, what you do with money is not an extension of your rights.
Your rights are a function not of who you are, but simply that you are. By virtue of being a person, and by virtue of your citzenship, you have rights. A richer man may be better able to protect his rights, but his ability to do so does not grant him any more rights that a poor man.
You are on the right track when you mention that “hypothetically we are all equal” - this is exactly why we need to protect civil rights; racial, social, and gender equality are still to a large degree theoretical. We still need to work to reinforce them, protect them, and establish them.
Abortion, for many (if not all) pro-choice advocates is not a moral issue - it is an issue of rights. It is not a question of whether that person would have an abortion or not, but rather, whether they believe that a women, who has the most intimate involvement is what happens to her body, have the final say in what is done to her body.
For the sake of this country and the politics everyone seems to be concerned about the need for woman not to have an abortion but no one talks about woman who are raped or incest and is faced with an unwanted pregnancy because that doctor would not give her the emergecny contraceptive pill and when she becomes pregnant and wants an abortion she has a hard time getting one. Since when do we use woman by imposing their religious beliefs on others. According to the bible God gave man the free will to choose or not to choose. suppose the woman was an atheist why should she listen or go along with what someones’ religious beliefs? I dont understand why people are worried about a woman having an abortion without being worried and doing something about these children who are homeless, without health insurance including those with medical conditions and the fact that this country has an infant mortality rate that puts us at 42nd rank behind china and cuba. It seems to me if we are going to make a big deal about an abortion shouldnt we make a big deal about this as equally as much?
I am not in favor of banning abortion when it comes to the health of a women. Pregnancy can have various problems that may warrant terminating . I am not in favor of some non family member taking a child to get an abortion without parental knowldge or consent- that is a government abuse of power I am in favor of choice BEFORE getting pregnant. If you don’t want a child don’t get pregnant.
I am not in favor of some non family member taking a child to get an abortion without parental knowldge or consent- that is a government abuse of power I am in favor of choice BEFORE getting pregnant. If you don???t want a child don???t get pregnant. - reddog.
That is none of the government’s business. Legalized abortion does not ADVOCATE that type of behavior or condone it.
Abuse of government power is in legislating (restricting) the freedom of a woman to do with her body as she pleases.
GOD judges whether it is right or wrong. Not you, not me not the government.
“Abuse of government power is in legislating (restricting) the freedom of a woman to do with her body as she pleases.”
Really? Can she be a prostitute? Can she cut off her arms if she chooses? How about selling her organs? Milder issues might be “can she get drunk or use drugs during pregnancy?”, for instance.
The limitation of freedom of us as individuals is all around us. Much of it is clearly for the common good.
Abortion is not **just** about a “womans right to choose”. It is about the conflicting rights of several parties - which includes the woman, but also the fetus and the father. To neglect this is to miss the whole essence of the abortion issue.
BTW, while you may assert “God judges whether it is right or wrong”, the government decides if something is legal or not. Which is the practical instantiation of “right” and “wrong”.
hey lib but proud how come you want SPECIAL treatment for women?? Everybody else is subject to law why shoul women have the"right” to murder a baby. How come you libs only want laws that restict gay “marriage” and abortion but you are ALWAYS for big goverment restriction and taxes huh?
You libs are finally getting called to the carpet on your hypocrisy and I love it. I hope in 4 more years under Bush Abortion except for rape, incest and the health of the mother is BANNED.
And lib but proud is that all you can do -cut and paste what I say? How come you have this snotty left wing liberal attitude when it comes to babay murder ans not anything else. I find your typical hypocrisy and narrow mindedness typical of most of your posts and most all other hard core “progressives”. thankfully you are all adying breed. America will be much better off without you and your big government hypocrisy….
Since when is individual liberty “special treatment”?
Are you from a red state or a red country?
In your world the rights of someone not born override the rights of someone already living.
Should we extend death benefits to stillborns in your world? Because they WOULD have been viable tax paying people?
Should we extend life insurance to unborn children, with the Church as beneficiary?
Abortion should remain a needed birth control option. I know far to many people that were raised in abusive, or neclectfull homes that will never aspire to anything greater that a job in retail, and never read. Still is wrong when he says thet the Supreme Court forced abortion on the nation may states had abortion, but it was very restricted. There was many local religious leaders that helped women get abortion, so being religious doesn’t mean that you have to be anti-abortion.
As for the Catholic churches view toward abortion is rather odd. For centuries the ideal that the church praised was a life of abstinace and a devotion to God, even with married couples like the Shakers did. When the idea of predestination was the rule of Christianity and disease ran rampant, one out of four women died in childbirth or from being pegnant, and in parts of the world one half of children would die before their tenth birthday.
The originl meaning of the 4th Commandment was that people did not say they where doing something in the name of god, but it’s been so twisted around that people will blindly blieve God wants them to do something; then get so upset when they hear, (shit, or damn).
If you are religious hopefully you will join the the less than 5% of peopled how have set the bible aside and really studied where Judaism and Christianity really came from, and stop thinking it THE THRUTH, which its not.
hey lib but proud- how come you don’t support anybody other than women having idividual rights and liberty??
what the hell about death benefits and insurance. Your weekend pass is up lib but proud time to go back to your little room at happy valley home for the feminst insane and take your medicine- you are delusional.
I am from the USA which used to be a free country until you liberal-socialist- facist- progressive scum got your slimy tentacles around the government-schools- colleges- and ability to over-tax and over regulate us on everything.
here a toast to the absolute death of liberalism in this country!!
Redfog-Don’t you get tired of writing the same stupid crap over and over again? Branch out- come up with new stupid crap.
dear Matt-that is why you are here to come up with newer more stupid crap. I don’t EVER get tired of being right! And I love exposing liberals for what they are- delusional hypocrite folks who have been terribly misled.
I believe in freedom and equal rights for all…gays, all the races, genders, religions, even close minded bible thumpers like you.
Have a nice day.
Faith based morals are as individual as finger prints. That being said, the idea that abortion as an alternative to birthing an unwanted child is personal, just like an individual’s religion.
Placing more controls over access to abortion may be a step in the right direction. However, the issues of sexual promiscuity or irresponsibility is a corporate issue. An issue to be addressed in the schools around this nation.
We can teach our children reading, writing, and arithmetic, but we fail miserably when education relates to life, love and relationship.
Let’s all look beyond the symptom and discuss the problems.
Discussing the problem is a good start. Kids get bombarded constantly with sex and violence and never shown the consequences of these actions. Little girls think they have to look a certain way and litle boys are pressured into sports to make them popular. I think that hollywood is the biggest problem because they send all these subtle and not so subtle messages to kids. i know I don’t watch TV outside of the history channel and some pbs shows myself and if it was not for my wife i probably would have thrown the tv in the garbage long ago. So what’s the answer? censorship? boy let the media folks get a hold of that idea. Schools should be a place that kids learn the “3 r’s” and get an academic education not a social lesson. I know this may sound old fashioned to some readers but I really believe that the family is the best place for kids to learn values and right from wrong. Unfortunately with today’s economic injustices folks work too much and kids get an unwanted education from what i call the electronic babysitter- the tv. The only way we are going to solve some of this is with simplification. People have to stop working so hard for useless crap they don’t need. Working my soul and health away for 17 televisions, 9 computer’s four expensive cars and a host of other un- neccesities is not worth it to me no matter what the TV says i need . Rampant consumerism is a disease in this country. Religion is no longer"the opiate of the masses” buying to much useless stuff is. But trying to stop all this is a daunting task for our society and requires a major shift in thinking that will not be easy unless of course the power goes out and we are forced to look for alternatives.
Abortion and baby killing is to be found in a variety of different species - some storks douche themselves after sex, reptiles eat their young, even apes will kill babies that seem, well, “off” - as a way of maintaining the integrity of the whole.
I know that most people who believe strongly against abortion probably won’t accept that we are just another animal in the world, but perhaps they can still consider the effects of overpopulation. We obviously haven’t hit the point where we are out of sustenence (though some parts of the world have), but unless there is an internal capping of the population, nature will take its course by any means necessary. More car accidents, more murders, more, well, stupid people. At the very worst, we’ll hit a breaking point that will take out a very large chunk, if not the whole. Though fundamentalists with whom I have argued this point call that Armaggedon, and aren’t fazed.
For the rest of us who want to act morally and have a certain cognitive dissonance when it comes to abortion, my opinion is that morality is which helps furthers the species as a whole, not individuals. The smallest unit in population genetics is the population.
I have a great idea because we are so over populated lets go slaughter millions of helpless children because they might turn into more car accidents, more muders and more, well, stupid people.
The 45 million babbies that have been killed are from American abortions since Roe V Wade in ‘73. These numbers are taken from the Allen Guttmacher institute, which is the leading researcher for planned parenthood. every 22 seconds another child is surgically aborted in America. Killed in the womb by puncturing the back of the skull, cutting it apart with knives, and sucking it out with a vacum. Then the nurses must ut the the pieces of the child back together to make sure everyhting was removed from the mother. How can you support such an inhumne act as that?
lib, the fact that abortions is wrong and you say differently is completely alright, how ever you comment about should exteneding dealth benefits in your would, cause they WOULD have been taxes papers is off the subject and wrong. I full agree that any family that has to deal with the hardship of a stillborn and that stillborns’ funeral expenses should be entitled to receive their benefits that they pay in to. my son was stillborn at 41 weeks. I went to the hospital think I was in labor having my overdue son, instead I was siging papers for his autospy and finding a funeral home only to find out that all 5,000.00 dollars had to come out of our pocket, not the insurance I pay every mth. So abortion in my opinion very wrong, you using stillborns as a example is very wrong.
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