“You Are Not Alone”: Federal Whistleblowers on Being Terminated, Speaking Truth To Power

Maximillian Alvarez: All right, welcome everyone to Working People, a podcast about the lives, jobs, dreams and struggles of the working class today. Working People is a proud member of the Labor Radio Podcast Network and is brought to you in partnership with In These Times and The Real News Network. This show is produced by Jules Taylor and made possible by the support of listeners like you.

[Recently], The Real News published a bombshell interview with two federal whistleblowers working in the Department of Housing and Urban Development. In their first on-air appearance since going public with their whistleblower complaint, which they filed with the Office of Democratic Senator Elizabeth Warren from Massachusetts, I spoke with Paul Osadebe and Palmer Heenan, two attorneys in HUD’s Office of Fair Housing. In their explosive testimonies, Osadebe and Heenan revealed the chaos that has upended HUD under the new Trump administration and the vulnerable Americans who are being systematically abandoned as a result.

On Monday September 29, exactly one week after we published that interview, Osadebe and Heenan were fired.

In this urgent follow up interview, I am joined on The Real News once again, by Paul Osadebe and Palmer Heenan. Gentlemen, welcome back. It’s really good to see you both again. Though, of course, I wish we were reconnecting under less horrifying circumstances. But, here we are.

I want to jump right in and ask, first, how are you both doing right now? Can you walk us through the last week in your lives, from officially going public with your whistleblower complaints on Sept. 22, to then being fired this Monday on Sept. 29?

Paul Osadebe: I’m sure you can imagine, it’s been a wild ride. We got a huge outpour of support and thanks for being willing to tell the truth publicly, for sticking up for our co-workers, for the work of our agency and for all the people who don’t have a voice. That was amazing.

Early Monday we got an email that was pretty vague. It was set for very soon after when the meeting request was sent. When we got that, I think we started to have a sense that something negative was about to happen. When we actually had the meetings, they told me that they were recommending that I be fired for my whistleblowing activity and nothing else. Not anything related to performance or any actual misconduct. It was entirely for speech and for telling the truth.

Palmer Heenan: My experience was much the same. There was this amazing outpouring of support over the course of this week between when we went public and when we were fired, but we also were in the office watching as they continued to dismantle fair housing, despite the fact that a sitting U.S. senator has requested that the inspector general examine and investigate their dismantlement of fair housing.

I was able, luckily, to get in touch with our union, AFGE 476. They were able to get the chief steward of the union to come to the meeting, which I think really just shows the power of unions, the power of organizing and the power of solidarity. Having that chief steward with me was empowering. It let me know that I wasn’t alone as I was facing what I believed was going to be a termination.

They arrived a couple minutes late for the meeting that they had set and told me that I was being summarily terminated.

Just a few weeks earlier, the department had certified that I was serving a critical role for the Department of Housing and Urban Development, and that I was necessary to the mission of HUD. They told me that they were rescinding that certification because I had spoken out. They said it was for the disclosures that I had made of non-public information.

A couple minutes into the meeting security showed up, as if they were going to have essentially the police escort me out of the building. I turned to the person that was terminating me and said, ​“I’m an attorney. You’re an attorney. I’m not making a scene here. Do you really need security? Is that where we’re at?” They waved them off and then escorted me to my office to surrender my laptop. They escorted me to the restroom and then to the front door of the building, where I was able to say goodbye to my colleagues.

Alvarez: And just to be crystal clear, both of you were told explicitly by your superiors that you were being terminated, or recommended for termination, because of your whistleblowing activities?

Osadebe: Yes. When someone says that you made unauthorized disclosure, and the unauthorized disclosure is telling Congress, the Inspector General and the American public what they’re doing? Yes, that is being fired for whistleblowing. There are no other disclosures that we’re talking about here. We’re talking about attempts to dismantle civil rights enforcement in this country. That’s the only thing that I’ve said — the truth.

Heenan: Yeah, that’s exactly right. The disclosures that we’ve made are the only disclosures that we’ve made. We’ve told the American public, we’ve told Congress, we’ve told anyone that will listen that has the power to do something, really. Things need to change. There are rights that are being trampled. There are laws that are being broken. People, we hope, will listen and do something about it. That’s why we were terminated. 

Alvarez: What does this all mean for the substance of your explosive whistleblower complaints themselves? What does this mean for the future of HUD?

Osadebe: It has a lot of negative impacts. Every single individual in this country is protected by these laws, and you’ve taken away two of the people most devoted to protecting that, who did it for free and who did it to fulfill their oath under the Constitution.That’s already a huge loss to the American people. 

Then, there’s the atmosphere of fear that this is intended to create, because, let’s be clear here, there’s no legal cover for what they’re doing. It’s a pure attempt to intimidate and silence. That’s a loss, because people are going to feel that they’re not protected in doing that, but that’s not true. I think we’ll show what those protections can actually provide.

Alvarez: To underscore the first part of what you said, the whistleblower complaints that you and your co-workers filed underline the fact that the staff cuts at HUD and the internal reorganizations had already left your office at critical incapacity to do your jobs. That was one of the key parts of the complaint. You all had been reduced to just a handful of lawyers, and now two of that handful are gone as well. 

Heenan: You’re exactly right. Across the board, the action that’s been taken to unlawfully terminate Paul and I is just further evidence of the truth of our underlying allegations. When your response can’t be to refute the truth because it’s true, your only response is to sow fear and make the problem worse by getting rid of two of the few remaining attorneys who actually do this work.

Alvarez: What happens now, specifically in regard to your cases? What recourse is available in this political climate, and what can people watching this do to help? 

Osadebe: At this point we are considering all legally based options, but there’s many things that the people watching this can do to help us, other federal workers and other people committed to civil rights and the truth.

There’s many members of Congress that are in oversight positions over the Department of Housing. There’s many members of Congress that have really critical affordable housing needs in their districts. Each of us can contact those members and say, ​“Hey, we need to have a hearing about the atmosphere of retaliation against whistleblowers that’s happening at HUD.” You can have calls to those members of Congress, visits, letter campaigns and anything that you can do to say that, ​“I want my civil rights protected by civil servants at HUD. I want a fully staffed office. I want people to be free to tell the truth and to actually do their jobs without political interference.” 

Alvarez: To end on a personal note, I wanted to bluntly ask if you guys stand by your decision to file these whistleblower complaints and to go public, even knowing that this was a possible outcome. 

What message do you hope that your actions will send to other public servants out there who might be wrestling with this decision over whether or not to speak out about the crimes that they’re seeing, the chaos that they’re seeing in their agencies, the questions of public concern that need to be known by the public? 

What gives you hope that these actions will still bring us closer to achieving that fight for civil rights and housing justice in this country?

Osadebe: What gives me hope is my co-workers that are still in the building, still trying to serve the American people. 

There’s people out there who need us. Anything that I’m facing is nothing compared to what they’re facing. My job — then and now — is to help those people, to protect them and to speak out for them when they can’t speak out for themselves. That’s what my oath means to me. It meant that I needed to take this risk, and it still is asking me to continue to speak out no matter what retaliation I face. 

Heenan: People take these things seriously. We are a country that does not believe that a landlord should hurl racial epithets at a tenant. We are a country that believes that affordable housing should exist that — excuse the cliche — the rent is too damn high. That’s what gives me hope. 

Talk to your co-workers, talk to your friends, your family, your network about what you’re experiencing. I don’t know that I would have had the courage to do this on my own. We went public together. That, to me, is the critical part of this. Standing in solidarity and realizing you are not alone.

This episode of the Working People Podcast was originally published on October 7.